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	<title>Comments on: Sisters Ordaining It For Themselves</title>
	<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: KC</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-123453</link>
		<author>KC</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-123453</guid>
		<description>Convinced Catholicism is all bound up in male jealousy at being unable to create - explains the rabid contraception and abortion stance (if you can't do it, control it) not to mention why they won't let the girls play in the priesthood. And really, why would they want to? I agree with PrissyNot, it's delusional.

As for gay marriage, I have no problem with it as it's more of a legal arrangement than a religious one like many heterosexual marriages these days, designed to protect whatever family unit people decide to commit to and respective interests and rights. BUT I loathe and despise the name-changing 'thing' with a passion. In my teens and 20s I thought it would have died out by now. I've noticed gay couples have started incorporating that twisted throw-back into their marriages, more's the pity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Convinced Catholicism is all bound up in male jealousy at being unable to create - explains the rabid contraception and abortion stance (if you can&#8217;t do it, control it) not to mention why they won&#8217;t let the girls play in the priesthood. And really, why would they want to? I agree with PrissyNot, it&#8217;s delusional.</p>
<p>As for gay marriage, I have no problem with it as it&#8217;s more of a legal arrangement than a religious one like many heterosexual marriages these days, designed to protect whatever family unit people decide to commit to and respective interests and rights. BUT I loathe and despise the name-changing &#8216;thing&#8217; with a passion. In my teens and 20s I thought it would have died out by now. I&#8217;ve noticed gay couples have started incorporating that twisted throw-back into their marriages, more&#8217;s the pity.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruthie</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-123438</link>
		<author>Ruthie</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-123438</guid>
		<description>I think you persuaded me the wrong way with the orchestra detail. I already tend to like religion for its potential to strengthen the resolve of people I think are doing the right thing. I can also be persuaded that it's the worst thing ever, depending on what evidence people muster. 

When you compared the priests to the orchestra conductor, I thought, "Yeah! Women priests! Great idea!" Because what's the alternative to the man with a baton? No one with a baton? I like non-hierarchical institutions as well as the next person, but I haven't heard well-played symphonies from non-hierarchical orchestras yet. 

If making reformist changes to major institutions (classical music, religion, marriage) didn't have some kind of impact on taking the patriarchy apart, why would people be resisting those changes so hard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you persuaded me the wrong way with the orchestra detail. I already tend to like religion for its potential to strengthen the resolve of people I think are doing the right thing. I can also be persuaded that it&#8217;s the worst thing ever, depending on what evidence people muster. </p>
<p>When you compared the priests to the orchestra conductor, I thought, &#8220;Yeah! Women priests! Great idea!&#8221; Because what&#8217;s the alternative to the man with a baton? No one with a baton? I like non-hierarchical institutions as well as the next person, but I haven&#8217;t heard well-played symphonies from non-hierarchical orchestras yet. </p>
<p>If making reformist changes to major institutions (classical music, religion, marriage) didn&#8217;t have some kind of impact on taking the patriarchy apart, why would people be resisting those changes so hard?</p>
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		<title>By: TimT</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1128</link>
		<author>TimT</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1128</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; ... Marin Alsop, the first woman in the history of the universe to head a world class symphony orchestra.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a href="http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/art_profiles/article_604.asp?s=1" rel="nofollow"&gt;Simone Young&lt;/a&gt;, the darling of Australia's opera-set, has conducted a couple of world-class orchestras in her time, too. Including the Vienna Philharmonic, traditionally a bastion of male privilege - that was the first time they actually accepted a woman as part of their orchestra.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> &#8230; Marin Alsop, the first woman in the history of the universe to head a world class symphony orchestra.</i></p>
<p><a href="http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/art_profiles/article_604.asp?s=1" rel="nofollow">Simone Young</a>, the darling of Australia&#8217;s opera-set, has conducted a couple of world-class orchestras in her time, too. Including the Vienna Philharmonic, traditionally a bastion of male privilege - that was the first time they actually accepted a woman as part of their orchestra.</p>
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		<title>By: bitchphd</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1129</link>
		<author>bitchphd</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1129</guid>
		<description>I'm with you on throwing out marriage.  But in defense of Catholicism--not the Church as institution, mind--it's the only Christian religion--hell, the only one of the big three monotheistic religions, period--in which goddess worship plays a major role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you on throwing out marriage.  But in defense of Catholicism&#8211;not the Church as institution, mind&#8211;it&#8217;s the only Christian religion&#8211;hell, the only one of the big three monotheistic religions, period&#8211;in which goddess worship plays a major role.</p>
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		<title>By: Round Rob'n</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1130</link>
		<author>Round Rob'n</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1130</guid>
		<description>Is becoming the music director of an orchestra really in the same catagory as gay marriage or the women priests?
I can see the argument that marriage and the church are fundamentaly oppressive institutions.  But an orchestra seems like it could be different.
Of course, nothing says "male privilege" like the fact that she is the only woman in this position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is becoming the music director of an orchestra really in the same catagory as gay marriage or the women priests?<br />
I can see the argument that marriage and the church are fundamentaly oppressive institutions.  But an orchestra seems like it could be different.<br />
Of course, nothing says &#8220;male privilege&#8221; like the fact that she is the only woman in this position.</p>
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		<title>By: nancy m</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1131</link>
		<author>nancy m</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1131</guid>
		<description>hey!  Over here!  Keep comingâ€¦  good, goodâ€¦ now turn left and head down a bitâ€¦  ok, this is Australia.   Witch killing mythology spreading is one thing but ignoring one of the better music directors in the accountable firmament is bordering on neglect.   Go and pick on some other patriarchy for a while.

&lt;a href="http://www.opera-australia.org.au/opera/oaweb.nsf/lookups/SIMONEYOUNG-PERF-?opendocument" rel="nofollow"&gt;Simone&lt;/a&gt;  not only took on one of your more stinky bastions of the music patriarchy, Opera Australia, as its Musical Director but also told them to shove it when they started playing politics with her orchestral numbers.  

And musicdom is indeed the patriarchy made aural.  In some few investigations, a selection committee ( and sadly for the story, women choosers are as liable to have the patriarchal bias as the men choosers) will always under-assess a woman musician's ability when they know her sex than when they can only hear her playing.  Thus a blind audition will always yield a much greater number of successful women applicants than one which faces the committee to play.

I gave up the quest for public musical employment and came over to teaching.
Which of course I do with my eyes closed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey!  Over here!  Keep comingâ€¦  good, goodâ€¦ now turn left and head down a bitâ€¦  ok, this is Australia.   Witch killing mythology spreading is one thing but ignoring one of the better music directors in the accountable firmament is bordering on neglect.   Go and pick on some other patriarchy for a while.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.opera-australia.org.au/opera/oaweb.nsf/lookups/SIMONEYOUNG-PERF-?opendocument" rel="nofollow">Simone</a>  not only took on one of your more stinky bastions of the music patriarchy, Opera Australia, as its Musical Director but also told them to shove it when they started playing politics with her orchestral numbers.  </p>
<p>And musicdom is indeed the patriarchy made aural.  In some few investigations, a selection committee ( and sadly for the story, women choosers are as liable to have the patriarchal bias as the men choosers) will always under-assess a woman musician&#8217;s ability when they know her sex than when they can only hear her playing.  Thus a blind audition will always yield a much greater number of successful women applicants than one which faces the committee to play.</p>
<p>I gave up the quest for public musical employment and came over to teaching.<br />
Which of course I do with my eyes closed.</p>
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		<title>By: Twisty</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1132</link>
		<author>Twisty</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1132</guid>
		<description>Australia is the new Canada!

And while they usually can't compete in terms of scandals, costumes, or undeserved popularity, symphony orchestras absolutely rival the Catholic church in terms of sheer sexism, and it's even worse in Europe than it is in the States. I have a French horn player pal, a woman, married to the principal oboe of a major American orchestra, who had to move to Lisbon to get a gig. She was the only woman in the orchestra. At least in the US they let the chicks play violas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Australia is the new Canada!</p>
<p>And while they usually can&#8217;t compete in terms of scandals, costumes, or undeserved popularity, symphony orchestras absolutely rival the Catholic church in terms of sheer sexism, and it&#8217;s even worse in Europe than it is in the States. I have a French horn player pal, a woman, married to the principal oboe of a major American orchestra, who had to move to Lisbon to get a gig. She was the only woman in the orchestra. At least in the US they let the chicks play violas.</p>
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		<title>By: Twisty</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1133</link>
		<author>Twisty</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1133</guid>
		<description>Dr.B, I'm totally down with "love thy neighbor," if by "love" el Cristo meant "tolerate," but outside of that you can keep that whole Christian circus. The goddess worshipped by Catholics is the prototype for today's ideal woman (the pliant, baby-incubatin' virgin doormat) and the foundation for modern misogyny. For centuries the male-dominated church, having conned the throng into believing in its divine uplink to God, has had the power to define both God and women. They define God as a fully-realized uber-dude. They define women in terms of sexual function.

Besides, it's funky to worship any fictitious character at all, regardless of sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr.B, I&#8217;m totally down with &#8220;love thy neighbor,&#8221; if by &#8220;love&#8221; el Cristo meant &#8220;tolerate,&#8221; but outside of that you can keep that whole Christian circus. The goddess worshipped by Catholics is the prototype for today&#8217;s ideal woman (the pliant, baby-incubatin&#8217; virgin doormat) and the foundation for modern misogyny. For centuries the male-dominated church, having conned the throng into believing in its divine uplink to God, has had the power to define both God and women. They define God as a fully-realized uber-dude. They define women in terms of sexual function.</p>
<p>Besides, it&#8217;s funky to worship any fictitious character at all, regardless of sex.</p>
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		<title>By: Steph</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1134</link>
		<author>Steph</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1134</guid>
		<description>Sometimes it's tough to look the patriarchy right in the eye and see it for what it is.  That goes for married chicks like me (who have their days with the whole "institution") and Catholic-women-who-ordain-themselves types who will likely be priests with vaginas who don't really want to change the church much beyond getting ordained and possibly having priests marry.  

It got media coverage because the blah media thought it radical.  We likely will never hear about it again.

To use that icky corporate phrase--these women not thinking outside the box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes it&#8217;s tough to look the patriarchy right in the eye and see it for what it is.  That goes for married chicks like me (who have their days with the whole &#8220;institution&#8221;) and Catholic-women-who-ordain-themselves types who will likely be priests with vaginas who don&#8217;t really want to change the church much beyond getting ordained and possibly having priests marry.  </p>
<p>It got media coverage because the blah media thought it radical.  We likely will never hear about it again.</p>
<p>To use that icky corporate phrase&#8211;these women not thinking outside the box.</p>
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		<title>By: jennifer</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1135</link>
		<author>jennifer</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2005/07/30/sisters-ordaining-it-for-themselves/#comment-1135</guid>
		<description>Ah, Twisty, for a minute I thought Audre Lorde had taken over your blog.  This post is like a 21st century update of &lt;i&gt;The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle The Master's House&lt;/i&gt;.  It's also why feminism is so hard for most people.  The realization and acceptance of the fact that patriarchy, in all its forms, must be completely dismantled in order for any system of equality to be able to take hold is almost impossible for so many to come to.  As Lorde said over 25 years ago, "They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.  And this fact is only threatening to those women who still define the master's house as their only source of support."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Twisty, for a minute I thought Audre Lorde had taken over your blog.  This post is like a 21st century update of <i>The Master&#8217;s Tools Will Never Dismantle The Master&#8217;s House</i>.  It&#8217;s also why feminism is so hard for most people.  The realization and acceptance of the fact that patriarchy, in all its forms, must be completely dismantled in order for any system of equality to be able to take hold is almost impossible for so many to come to.  As Lorde said over 25 years ago, &#8220;They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.  And this fact is only threatening to those women who still define the master&#8217;s house as their only source of support.&#8221;</p>
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