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Dec 08 2005

Vigil

Vigilizers

Canadian vigiliers gettin all up in it [Toronto Star]

It’s probably news to Americans, but our Canadian readers are aware that sixteen years ago, nutjob/proto-MRA Marc Lépine skulked into L’École Polytechnique at the Université de Montréal, announced that he hated feminists, and opened fire on some women engineering students. He killed 14 of them and injured 13 more. He naturally shot his own head off immediately thereafter.

It’s a pity that more brutalizers of women don’t shoot their own heads off.

According to the Vancouver Sun, Canadian women’s groups across the country recently held vigils and memorials, mostly involving roses and candles, for the Montréal Massacre as part of a "national day of remembrance and action on violence against women." I was not invited to speak at any of these events, so vigilizers were not treated to my plan for promoting suicide amongst misogynists. They heard lectures full of statistics that, because of statistic-fatigue, make everybody’s eyes glaze over:

Girls are four times more likely than boys to be sexually assaulted by family members, adolescent wives are three times more likely to be murdered and 12 per cent of girls in grade 9 are pressured to have sex. [Toronto Star]

"We’re asking for a 10-year campaign to raise awareness amd change behavior toward women," quoth the president of the Québec Women’s Federation. She alludes, apparently, to similar rose-and-candle campaigns used "to curb drunk driving and boost seatbelt use."

Nice try, but when drunk driving is still a national pastime, I am pained by the desperation of the idea that a few years of advertising in bus stops should make a dent in millennia’s worth of the systemic misogyny that culminates in daily butcherings of women. Particularly when there are still plenty of fucks who make exceedingly hilarious remarks like this to commemorate the Montréal Massacre:

If you’d like a different perspective on what men are like, try deviating from the usual question that the Violence Against Women lobby ask about men. I hear the same question over and over, and particularly at this time of year: if you’re going to be attacked, who is more likely to be attacking you? A woman or a man? I have a different question: if you’re going to be rescued from an attacker, who is more likely to rescue you? A woman or a man? In both questions the answer is "a man."

I don’t know who this Violence Against Women lobby is, but the question I always ask dipshit men about men is "Don’t you EVER shut the fuck up?"

59 comments

  1. Christopher

    That quote somehow reminds me of how the warrior class is always superior in caste systems. Sure, they protect us farmers and merchants from bad folks, but guess what? Those bad folks are the other guy’s warrior class. If warriors dissapeared altogether, it wouldn’t be a problem.

    Same with men, in this goober’s example.

  2. Maureen

    But the probability of a dude trying to rescue you is tiny compared to the probability of a dude attacking you–so I’m not seeing how this makes dudes look good.

  3. rose

    Having personally broken up a number of fights and interfered is several assaults it has been my experience that there is nothing that ends that kind of behavior faster than a properly applied mom voice. Sometimes backed up with a little up against the wall motherfucker and spread em. It has also been my experience that men tend to like to watch rather than rescue.

  4. manxome

    Sounds like a mob protection racket. They must be so proud.

  5. laughingmuse

    Well, if you’re already working under the assumption “men rule and are strong and stuff, and little women must cower before us”, then sure, that fucktarded comment Twisty quotes makes sense.

    Of course, if you think of women as actual people with their own agency, then it gets a little confusing.

  6. The Fat Lady Sings

    As seems the case here as well, there were a number of woman-haters who crawled out of the woodwork to pee all over the feminist blogs in Canada that wrote articles in remembrance of the massacre. I’m including a link to one blogger who mentioned this unsettling and unfortunate phenomenon. Her name is Polly, and the blog is Marginal Notes. Her article on the massacre itself is quite moving.

  7. Abbie

    I’m an American who just moved to Canada, and I have to say I’ve been pretty impressed with how many people know about the massacre and are making a commemoration. My university (in Ontario) had it as an official day of mourning and commemoration — we weren’t allowed to schedule any activities for students. So, there are people who are willing to be asses about it, but for the most part I think people up here take it seriously.

  8. Duf

    If only the massacre-er had blown his head off BEFORE the massacre. Can we just make a new rule that all misogynists must blow their heads off before any acts of violence or hatred?

  9. Anonymous

    >I’m an American who just moved to Canada<

    Where the words “progressive” and “liberal” are still considered patriotic.

  10. Mandos

    However “Liberal” means something quite different in Canada, and I don’t like it. I’ve restarted posting on my blog just for the election. Of course, I know that many Americans *wish* they had a party like our Liberal Party, but it’s still a party that’s pushing Canada in the wrong direction.

    (Don’t worry, I plan to post about things other than Canada too :) Like cheese.)

  11. Mandos

    However “Liberal” means something quite different in Canada, and I don’t like it. I’ve restarted posting on my blog just for the election. Of course, I know that many Americans *wish* they had a party like our Liberal Party, but it’s still a party that’s pushing Canada in the wrong direction.

    (Don’t worry, I plan to post about things other than Canada too :) Like cheese.)

  12. ladyxoc

    Actually both times I was attacked, I was attacked by men, and I “rescued” my own damn self.

    But enough of that. Doesn’t this jerk realize the problem is that this:

    “Girls are four times more likely than boys to be sexually assaulted by family members, adolescent wives are three times more likely to be murdered and 12 per cent of girls in grade 9 are pressured to have sex”

    doesn’t go away just because he has a damn hissyfit and screams “no fair!” Oh, wait, it’s all about HIM. My bad.

  13. Polly Jones

    I think a large part of the problem is that there is a culture of shame. Public campaigns will never have the same power as those speaking up about their personal experiences of violence. How many people speak up in everyday life? I’m asking because I don’t. Of course, I talk about it at times with friends and family. But, say in class, when we talk about sexual assault it is always in a non-personal way.

  14. Anonymous

    Always. Always whenever some man does something bad that represents an issue of violence against women (rape, domestic abuse, feminist massacring), other men leap to the defensive – “All men aren’t violent! Why you gotta hate on men! It wasn’t that big of a deal anyway! Shut up!!!”

    But when one woman speaks up about the same thing, god forbid with ire, all women are screeching harpies.

    Just a thought.

  15. Joolya

    Always. Always whenever some man does something bad that represents an issue of violence against women (rape, domestic abuse, feminist massacring), there are a crop of men who then leap to the defensive – “All men aren’t violent! Why you gotta hate on men! It wasn’t that big of a deal anyway! Shut up!!!”

    But when one woman speaks up about the same thing, god forbid with ire, that shows how women are screeching harpies.

    Just a thought.

  16. Anonymous

    About men becoming defensive around these issues: that reminds me of what often happens when I talk to my white friends about racism.

  17. ms. b.

    Gah, instead of roses and candles, let’s have angry women shouting in the streets!

    Damn, I forget, we’re meant to be lady-like

  18. octopod

    http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5278157

  19. Summer

    It’s a pity that more brutalizers of women don’t shoot their own heads off.

    It really is.

  20. Clare

    Men beat women, but hell men can rescue women too. Great. So we’re in their hands then?
    Had never heard of Marc Lépine or this day. Thanks for blogging about it.

  21. Chris Clarke

    Men beat women, but hell men can rescue women too.

    And when Michael Jackson held that baby over the balcony railing, he was actually preventing it from plummeting to the ground.

  22. Julia

    The comment at the end of the post forgot one thing. The third question

    Who is more likely to watch/cheer/join in on your assualt, a man or woman?

  23. Sarah

    And when you are raped, want to press charges, and are questioned by a police officer, which one is more likely to behave compassionately and not blame you for the crime, a man or a woman?

  24. piny

    >>If only the massacre-er had blown his head off BEFORE the massacre. Can we just make a new rule that all misogynists must blow their heads off before any acts of violence or hatred?>>

    Well, but then we’d just have a plague of violent misogynist zombies. I like Twisty’s brains right where they are. How about this: prior to any act of violence and/or hatred, all misogynists must strip naked and wade through piranha-infested ponds maintained in the local chamber of commerce. What better way to snuff these fucks than a swarm of vaginas dentata?

    “I have a different question: if you’re going to be rescued from an attacker, who is more likely to rescue you? A woman or a man? In both questions the answer is ‘a man.’”

    I can’t stand this bullshit! And I hear it a lot from revisionist pro-male people; usually from ftms and otherwise pro-feminist men who are made uncomfortable by the “male-bashing”* they encounter. “You think you want to get rid of the men, but what would you do without men? Who would butcher pigs and snake drains and save babies from dingoes and stuff? Strength is good! Protective responsibility is good! Masculinity is good!”

    Well, yeah, sure, if you’re that lacking in imagination. Like the other commenters are saying: as long as one group of people is kept in abject vulnerability, some other group of people is going to have to protect them. The solution to that is to make the vulnerable people autonomous, not to cement their dependence on their protectors. And if you haven’t been mugged for your frontal lobes, the most cursory glance at history will tell you that the strong _never_ actually protect the vulnerable.

    *I.e. patriarchy-bashing from angry female-bodied people.

    >>And when you are raped, want to press charges, and are questioned by a police officer, which one is more likely to behave compassionately and not blame you for the crime, a man or a woman?>>

    It’s not necessarily the latter, unfortunately. The relevant question is, “If you’re raped, who’s more likely to behave compassionately and not blame you for the crime, a feminist or someone invested in the patriarchy? And which one are you?”

  25. Donna

    Well, and ask these disingenuous patriarchy apologists whom they would be more likely to be raped by? A man or a woman? Therefore, why do they resist attempts to address male dominance and the violence that upholds it? It’s not like men don’t get raped, after all. Male-on-male rape is quite frequent in prisons and rigidly hierarchal and sexist societies like Saudi Arabia. They’re full of shit. It’s like one Mafia gang offering you “protection” from another.

  26. The Fat Lady Sings

    I took on dKos tonight with this very subject. As you can imagine, I was excoriated for even bringing it up. You can throw in numerous insults and rampant belittling as well. Bad girl – bad! How dare you assign any responsibility to the vagina-challenged? Burn the witch! Burn her, and cast her soul into hell! At least, that was the gist of the replies. I could be wrong now, but I think they wanted me to shut up. Guess what? Not gonna happen in this lifetime!

  27. Mandos

    tFLS: do you have a link to it?

  28. The Fat Lady Sings

    I do, Mandos – if you are interested. I called the diary Why Do So Many Men Hate Women? I specifically issued a challange in order to spark debate. Oh – I would say there were sparks, alright.

  29. Mandos

    Hmm. I read the responses as rather mixed, some negative, some neutral, some positive. I do think the point about phraseology is a good one. People do not typically think in terms of class. When you ask something like “Why do men hate women?”, the responses you get involve a specific interpretation of “hate” and an “individualized” interpretation of “men”, when you presumably intend neither of these things.

    The term “misogynist” means to most people a kind of caricature: either some kind of Archie Bunker figure or some other kind of creepy celibate hermit. So “misogyny” as used by feminists means something different to the general reader and often obtains a less than optimally productive response.

  30. The Fat Lady Sings

    I find it interesting Mandos that you responded more to the comments, rather than the article itself. I would say the majority of male commentators preferred falling back on semantics as an excuse to proffer criticism. Easier, I suppose than addressing the subject directly. As for productivity – I’m not sure I would link that expectation to topics as emotional as rape and murder. I wanted to prompt discussion, yes; but realized taking the temperature of the respondents, and hopefully getting some good faith attempts to answer my question was about all I could expect. Frankly, it was my impression that the majority of comments bordered on the negative; and more than a few were comparable to the examples contained in my essay. As with examinations of racial bias, discussing violence toward women pulls the rats out of the walls. I used only 2 examples in my article, but there were dozens to choose from – both from here and in Canada. I specifically shied away from the most egregious; those men were obviously part of the lunatic fringe. That some of the men at dKos offered up a defense for men who verbally bash women surprised me. The infection seems contagious, unfortunately.

  31. Former Jose

    The “rescuer” rhetorical question assuredly makes the man in question feel better about himself, but it’s not relevant.

    Do men who intervene in rape and other predominately gendered assaults equal the number of assaults? No.

    (And the “rescuer” set-up seems to assumes stranger assault, which of course does not comprise the largest category of male-on-female violence.)

    Even if the number of men who did intervene in rape and other assaults equaled the number of the men who assault, does that fix the problem? No. You still have lots of men who are committing violence against women. (An intervention does not mean no psychological or physical damage occurs.)

    And the only thing that will fix that is a decrease in men committing violence against women.

  32. Twisty

    I’m feeling a bit too glurpy today to really tear into this topic, but:

    Well said, Piny.

    Mandos (Mandos Mandos), I’m not sure that if you polled a cross-section of whatever populus you like that you would find all that many people who have even heard the word “misogyny.” But you remind me of my number one source of chapped hide, which is that a feminist is required to expend, like, 80% of her argument time defining her terms such that they reassure patriarchalists that she’s not a nutjob. That’s because questioning the legitimacy of male dominion is an act of lunacy.

    Former Jose, you cleverly spot the many hilarious flaws in the Scared Dude’s “rescuer” argument. Yay.

  33. Federico Contreras

    The answer is staring you in the face and no one has said it. Carry guns, dipsticks.

    What I’m sorry about is that Lepine got away with it because not one person was able to shoot back. Better to have a gunfight than a massacre any day.

    You all sound like a fucking bunch of old biddies. Complaining about violence against women/gays/jews/blacks (insert your victim group here) does not solve the issue. Take action instead of holding useless vigils, how about getting those women their FACs and starting to lobby politicians for concealed carry?

    Oh I forgot, we liberals don’t do that sort of thing. More’s the pity.

  34. Mandos

    Huh. I thought I had posted a response here yesterday but it must have gotten eaten by typepad.

  35. Twisty

    Federico, one does not address readers of I Blame The Patriarchy as “dipsticks.”

  36. Federico Contreras

    hehe twisty, sort of in a bit of a fit when I typed that. And read a few comments, you can see why I got that impression yes? I will stop addressing them as such when they stop being a bunch of bleeders and take charge of their own safety.

    If you get killed in the street, it sure is a tragedy, but if you did nothing to prevent it in the first place…it’s like building your house in a city that’s 20 feet below sea level. In a preventable tragedy, at least some of the blame goes to those who fail to prevent it.

    So a few things to remember:

    1. Be fit. If you can’t run 5 miles at the drop of a hat, you will be in serious trouble one day. And more lives than your own may depend on your fitness. If you die due to the fact that you are out of shape, congratulations, you are an example of natural selection at work.

    2. Learn CPR. Again, more lives than your own can depend on your having basic paramedic skills.

    3. Learn how to (at least in THEORY) load / unload (make safe) common firearms in your area.

    4. If at all possible, get a concealed carry permit, especially if you are gay / black in a hick area.

    5. Wear your seatbelt.

    5a. Have a fire extinguisher in the car and kitchen.

    5b. Check your smoke detector battery

    6. Brush your teeth, and floss/rinse with mouthwash.

  37. Former Jose

    Okay, cool.

    Now where’s your advice to men/straights/white on how THEY can stop the violence too?

  38. Formre Jose

    Oh wait … personal accountability is only for the disprivileged. My bad.

  39. Christopher

    See, some of us dipsticks feel that maybe women shouldn’t have to carry fucking guns with them every second of the day.

    It’s a perfectly fine (although not infalliable) stopgap measure, but trumpeting it as a solution means you think women are always going to be a victim class in a hostile society.

    And, you know, the idea that heavily armed societies are safer then less heavily armed ones is pretty damn debatable.

    Not to mention the worry that the dominant class isn’t going to look highly on a minority group blowing members of the priveleged class away. I mean, considering how authorities often treat rape reports, it might not be prudent to go around shooting rapists; if the authorities don’t believe you killed a guy in self-defense, that opens you up to a much harsher penalty then for false report of rape.

    And not to mention another half-dozen reasons why your smugness isn’t at all warranted.

  40. Alex

    Federico, what exactly is a “preventable tragedy”?

  41. Dim Undercellar

    It’s hard enough to prove a rape happened, even a stranger rape.

    How hard would it be to prove a rape WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN, and that’s why she shot him in the head, so it was self-defense and not murder?

    Furthermore, with all the male dipsticks out there who believe murder is worse than rape (because murder is something men have to worry about), shooting a rapist in self-defense would STILL be ruled “excessive force” or “unlawful use of deadly force”, so even if the judge agreed a rape was about to happen, the woman would still go to jail.

    Giving women guns to shoot rapists with would do nothing but put lots of women in prison.

    Not to mention that it would promote the myth that if she didn’t shoot at you, it wasn’t rape. So at a rape trial, the lawyer would ask “did you shoot at him?” and she’d go “No..” and he’d go “But you had a gun, the feminist groups gave you a gun to shoot rapists with, right?” and she go “Yes…” and he’d say “So if you didn’t shoot him, you must not have thought he was a rapist!”

    Then the same laywer would walk ten steps down the hall to the next courtroom and go “Had you had sex with the man you shot as an alleged attempted rapist before? What were you wearing when he allegedly tried to rape you?”…

  42. Tuomas

    Dim writes:
    Furthermore, with all the male dipsticks out there who believe murder is worse than rape (because murder is something men have to worry about)
    I’m sorry, but I think most men AND women would consider being murdered worse than being raped. Yes, even though I’m a (heterosexual) man, I’d choose being raped everytime over being murdered. At least with rape I’m still around. If that (wanting to live) makes me a “dipstick” by your definition then perhaps the problem is with your definition.

    But I agree on the problem of proving the intent to rape. But I’m not so sure about the ruling if the intent is clear. (Esp. if the rapist is a big black man and the woman is white etc.)

  43. NBarnes

    Ah, the logic of the brigand. How far we’ve come in five thousand years of social evolution.

  44. Dim Undercellar

    “I’m sorry, but I think most men AND women would consider being murdered worse than being raped.”

    Ever actually asked a woman who has been raped?

    See A relevant post on The Den where a few women talk about it:

    BB:
    “Of course, nobody who makes that claim has ever actually experienced death, but many women have experienced rape and some of them have had dark moments in which they believed that death would be a release. When they tell that story, people around them bristle, they insist that the survivor is WRONG, as if they know what death is, they accuse that survivor of using ‘emotional blackmail’ to make a point.”

    SQ:
    “No one human being should have enough pain in thier life, hearts, minds, SOULS that they have a weighted list of ways to “end thier suffering” as I refer to it. I don’t want to die, really I don’t, but living this way really isn’t much like living, and the meds don’t really do nearly as much as the doctors think.”

    Vasha:
    “My mother and I differ on almost every belief in our lives. She is a conservative southern baptist republican, I’m an agnostic liberal, but the one thing I still believe that she taught me from childhood, taught my brothers and my sisters, and told everyone she had an opportunity to share with, is that Rape is worse than Murder. When a person is murdered, they are gone, they’re dead, they don’t hurt anymore, they don’t care.”

    Quite frankly, you are indulging in the male priviledge to assume that anything not part of your experience must be either rare, unimportant, or realitively insignificant compared to the things which are part of your experience.

    Or course you think death is worse than rape. But do you think death is worse than a life of disability and intense pain? Because that’s what rape is. That’s what rape DOES. You cannot comprehend. I cannot comprehend. But at least I don’t tell women how they’re supposed to feel about it.

  45. Arjet

    In the very first comment, Christopher raised perhaps the most salient point:

    That quote somehow reminds me of how the warrior class is always superior in caste systems. Sure, they protect us farmers and merchants from bad folks, but guess what? Those bad folks are the other guy’s warrior class. If warriors dissapeared altogether, it wouldn’t be a problem.

    I would expound on that, but it’s expounded on really just so, so much better than I could ever do it in Sheri S. Tepper’s The Gate to Women’s Country, the book that made me realized which side I wanted stand on. Christopher’s point–and the basis of Tepper’s book–is that the problem is not with which warrior is killing/raping/oppressing you, but that fact that the warrior class exists at all. And don’t give me that revolting dreck from A Few Good Men, either. The point isn’t that we should stand down and let the awful (racially coded) baddies sweep over us–the point is that the need for protection from those baddies (and the need for protection from us that they tell their women about) is a bedrock foundation of the very patriarchy that Twisty spends so much of her free time blaming.

  46. Tuomas

    I commented earlier but it went to the old site. So here (copy-paste is wonderful thing).

    Dim:

    What you are practically saying is that women are better off dead than raped. That is where you and I have a fundamental disagreement.
    Btw, the logic When a person is murdered, they are gone, they’re dead, they don’t hurt anymore, they don’t care. as told by Vasha’s mother (who is a fundamentalist, no surprise here), is meaningless. By that logic, any other harm done to another human being is worse than murder (because they don’t care anymore!). I reject that.

    Now, I ask you (all) to consider this: Who is telling women that the “loss of purity” is worse than death? Who is telling women that if they are raped, their life is over? Who is telling women that they are dirty forever if they are victims of the horrible crime called rape? Who is telling women that if they didn’t fight to the death against the (probably much stronger) rapist they aren’t good, and “deserved” rape?
    One word: Patriarchy.

    Why are you endorsing that idea, women are better of dead than raped?. I don’t have the power to command women how they should feel, nor would I want it, but I see no reason to support self-loathing and self-destructive thought patterns either (i understand that a woman might very well feel that way during the rape, but if a woman stays alive she will probably change her mind. At least I hope so, lest she commit a suicide). My best wishes to rape victims, I hope you can find something good in your life. Don’t succumb to despair. Don’t let the rapist win.

    As for claiming that I think rape is insignificant or meaningless. How on earth can you claim that? I only think rape isn’t worse than murder. If anything less than murder is insignificant to you, then again, it is your definitions that are to blame.

    NBarnes:
    It would be good if you could actually pinpoint the “brigand logic” and alluded lack of social evolution in my comment instead of throwing an unspecified Ad Hominem. (If your comment wasn’t directed at me, I apologize)

  47. BitingBeaver

    Actually Tuomas you’re wrong. That’s not what Dim, or anyone else, is saying.

    What is being said is that YOU don’t have a right to determine how a rape survivor SHOULD feel. By making the statement that ‘Death is always worse than rape’ you are making a claim on something you know nothing about. You are, very subtly, telling women that rape isn’t as bad as death and I’m here to tell you, as a rape survivor, that there have been times in my life when I was suicidal over my rape(s).

    When you stand by your shpeel that death is worse than rape, then you singlehandedly pass judgement against those women who HAVE opted for suicide. There is no way around it. Perhaps, for some women, rape isn’t worse than death, for some women it may not be a big deal at all, but for others, it fucking destroys them and they DO wish that they would have died.

    Sounds to me like YOU are speaking for the Patriarchy when you insist on telling someone who has actually experienced the crime of rape that they’re only responding to cultural conditioning. In fact, your line of reasoning sounds suspiciously like, ‘If you’ve been raped the only reason you’re upset about it is because society has told you to be. Therefore, you should just lay back and enjoy it”

    That, my friend, is the Patriarchy in action.

    Telling women that they only feel the way they do because society has told them too is a bit like telling a victim of an armed robbery that they only feel the way they do because of society. You wouldn’t pull that shit for any other crime on the planet, yet you expect women to believe that it’s acceptable for THIS crime.

    It’s a crock of steaming horseshit my friend.

  48. Dim Undercellar

    “What you are practically saying is that women are better off dead than raped. That is where you and I have a fundamental disagreement.”

    I’ll ask you again: Have you ever actually asked a woman who has been raped?

    I have, and I have discovered, almost universally, that at times death would, in fact, be preferable to rape.

    But you don’t bother to ask women, because, again, your male priviledge dictates that since it’s not a part of your experience, it can’t be all that bad.

  49. Tuomas

    Sorry for my slow responses. Different time zone.

    BitingBeaver:

    then you singlehandedly pass judgement against those women who HAVE opted for suicide. There is no way around it.

    Women who have chosen suicide have quite obviously decided that they would be better off dead. I mourn them and hope their rapists are brought to justice. Many women choose to live. Murder victims cannot choose.

    Telling women that they only feel the way they do because society has told them too is a bit like telling a victim of an armed robbery that they only feel the way they do because of society. You wouldn’t pull that shit for any other crime on the planet, yet you expect women to believe that it’s acceptable for THIS crime.

    That is not my position. Let me explain: I think rape is profound physical and psychological torture inflicted upon women. I also think that society blames women for being raped. In this way women are doubly victimized. First by the rape (which should be horrific enough) and next by idiots who declare things like “she asked for it” or “she could have prevented it by doing x” etc. victim-blaming. I assume that this further creates suffering for women who are raped.

    Funny how you two contradict Dim Undercellars position about women being better off dead than raped. BitingBeaver says that it is not what Dim meant yet Dim admits it.

    I must admit that I haven’t heard any stories about rape face-to-face (but I think the reason here is that few women have felt comfortable enough to talk about such intimate issues to me, not because rape is rare, because it is not rare by any means) but I have read many stories from rape victims on Alas, A Blog on rape discussions. I don’t recall anyone saying that death would be preferable. Sorry.

  50. Dim Undercellar

    “I must admit that I haven’t heard any stories about rape face-to-face”

    That’s all I needed to hear. Thank you.

  51. Tuomas

    That’s all I needed to hear. Thank you.

    You’re welcome. Have you talked to any murder victims and asked them whether they would have preferred to live, even if the condition for that would be rape? Obviously no one has done that, so there can be no comparison. But since the number of women who commit suicide after rape is less than 100%, evidence speaks against “rape is worse than murder”. I look forward on learning more about the subject of rape (perhaps I’ll visit the den), but please, please drop that “rape is worse than murder” -claim. It’s not helping your cause (which I assume is fighting rape).

    Btw, did you read further than my admission that I haven’t met any (that I have known) rape victims face to face?

  52. BitingBeaver

    Tuomas,
    But don’t you see that when you say that death is worse than rape, you are undermining what certainly some women, feel about it?

    Seriously, would you tell a paralysis victim that she/he had no business wishing for death? That life is better than death? I doubt you would. Yet, you make blanket statements to anyone within shouting distance that there is no way that rape is worse than death.

    I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. For some women, particuarly those affected by PTSD (which, by the way, rape victims experience in even higher numbers than war vets) death is preferable.

    You’re speaking with authority about something you know nothing at all about. And, in doing so, you’re disallowing for the possibility that, even amoung those survivors who had a ‘choice’ (that’s problematic in itself but I’m not going to get into it in this post) some of them have chosen death. Period.

    Even with their ‘choice’ some are choosing death.

    Doesn’t that say something to you?

    You may mean well, but you’re insulting to women who don’t ‘accept’ rape in the way you deem appropriate. You don’t GET the power of definition in this matter. The survivors get the power of definition.

    Funny how it’s always men who seem to know everything about every rape survivor out there. Funny how a crime that is vastly perpetrated by men onto women can be so readily interpreted by men. The same men who, themselves, have a very tiny chance of it happening to them, have probably NEVER had it happen to them and who have probably had very little discussion with actual WOMEN about what this crime may have done to them. Yet, all of you just KNOW that it can’t be as bad as what a victim says it is. If she says she’d rather DIE than live with PTSD, nightmares, flashbacks etc. then men say, “Oh no! That’s not true! You’re overreacting”.

    Question for you. In your quest for life at all costs, do you disagree with people who want to end their own lives through assisted suicide?

  53. Tuomas

    You’re speaking with authority about something you know nothing at all about.

    Pot calling kettle black. You know nothing about being murdered (nor do I).

    Question for you. In your quest for life at all costs, do you disagree with people who want to end their own lives through assisted suicide?

    No.

    I did also acknowledge that some women indeed feel that rape was worse than death. Those women have committed suicide. Sad, but it was their choice.

    I think you and Dim need to re-read my comments, it is tiresome to argue with someone who constantly characterizes everything I wrote in worst possible light, and outright writes words in my mouth. I’m not going to defend positions that I don’t hold, that I object to. Honestly, is there nothing at all in anything I wrote you would agree with?

  54. piny

    There’s a difference between saying that one would rather have been killed than been raped, and committing suicide in the face of the violation of rape. The fact that raped women don’t all commit suicide after rape does not mean that they don’t either feel suicidal or wish that their rapist had put them out of their misery rather than leave them with the knowledge of what it’s like to be raped.

  55. Tuomas

    piny:

    Indeed there is. But those feelings do not prove that “rape is worse than murder”. Commiting suicide IMHO does prove that being raped is worse than death for those women. Again, I ask everyone to acknowledge the role of victim-blaming and negative associations about rape victims have in this choice.

  56. BitingBeaver

    What you’re missing Tuomas is that those comments DO in fact, prove that for SOME women rape IS worse than murder. Don’t you get it?

    As for victim blaming, you really *do* appear to be saying that women are pushed to suicide NOT by the act of rape, rather by the stigmatation that society places upon her.

    What this position inevitably leads to is that rape, in and of itself, is not a crime that could, or should push a woman to suicide. Those words “I ask everyone to acknowledge the role of victim-blaming and negative associations about rape victims have in this choice” necessarily say that most, or a good percentage of the trauma that a rape survivor experiences is due to cultural problems and not with the problem inherent in the act itself.

    You may not be intending to say those things, but that is, in fact, what your words are conveying.

  57. Tuomas

    What you’re missing Tuomas is that those comments DO in fact, prove that for SOME women rape IS worse than murder. Don’t you get it?

    I get it. For SOME it is worse than murder. I only object to an authoritarian claim that rape is worse than murder, and to insults towards men and women who choose to think otherwise.

    As for victim blaming, you really *do* appear to be saying that women are pushed to suicide NOT by the act of rape, rather by the stigmatation that society places upon her.

    No, I think the major cause is rape. Stigmatization worsens the trauma. It is not an either/or situation, can you see the distinction there?

    Those words “I ask everyone to acknowledge the role of victim-blaming and negative associations about rape victims have in this choice” necessarily say that most, or a good percentage of the trauma that a rape survivor experiences is due to cultural problems and not with the problem inherent in the act itself.

    They do not. I have never claimed that cultural problems are worse than the act itself, nothing in my words conveys that attitude (an attitude I reject). What part of ” I think rape is profound physical and psychological torture inflicted upon women.” is saying that the act is insignificant?

    You may not be intending to say those things, but that is, in fact, what your words are conveying.

    Only if you misread them in the worst possible light like you have been doing.

  58. Tuomas

    I mean read them in worst possible light, OR misread them.

  59. Twisty

    I appreciate, Tuomas and Dim U. and Biting B, that you have demonstrated by example the I Blame The Patriarchy Standard of Civility during the course of this discussion.

    Nobody asked me, but I am inclined to believe that for some people, a living hell is worse than death, although I am not entirely sure that it is, across the board, worse than murder.

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