Comments on: A Cult Is A Cult Is A Cult http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/ Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:47:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Smite Me! [.net] » Blog Archive » Laura Bush Can Suck On My Left One http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-121702 Smite Me! [.net] » Blog Archive » Laura Bush Can Suck On My Left One Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:07:18 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-121702 [...] this was still sticking in the old craw as I headed over to Twisty’s place this morning to check out her latest masterpiece. ‘Twas an interesting look at “white [...] [...] this was still sticking in the old craw as I headed over to Twisty’s place this morning to check out her latest masterpiece. ‘Twas an interesting look at “white [...]

]]> By: The Good and the Right :: Random feminist moonbattedness, er, moonbattery. :: January :: 2006 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9750 The Good and the Right :: Random feminist moonbattedness, er, moonbattery. :: January :: 2006 Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:54:52 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9750 [...] In a post entitled “A cult is a cult is a cult,” radical feminist moonbat “Twisty Faster” has this to say about religion and women: . . . Islam, like Christianity and Judaism and Skank-worship (the West’s other religion), was invented by dudes, for dudes. Control of women is central to all these cults. In fact, from the point of view of a woman who fancies herself a human being, the only differences between them are the props (and the degree of public humiliation—there is never no humiliation—she will suffer if she happens to piss off any dudes). [...] [...] In a post entitled “A cult is a cult is a cult,” radical feminist moonbat “Twisty Faster” has this to say about religion and women: . . . Islam, like Christianity and Judaism and Skank-worship (the West’s other religion), was invented by dudes, for dudes. Control of women is central to all these cults. In fact, from the point of view of a woman who fancies herself a human being, the only differences between them are the props (and the degree of public humiliation—there is never no humiliation—she will suffer if she happens to piss off any dudes). [...]

]]> By: Clare http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9639 Clare Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:42:36 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9639 Kate - I'm not going to disagree with you as such. Yes, I've done a lot of research, but only into a very small number of groups, and to be fair your experience is just as valid as mine. I don't think what I wrote last night was terribly clear. What I was really trying to say is that it is a great worry when generalisations are made about religious groups. What you and Twisty said, I am certain, is not based upon rubbish the media churns out, but based on your experiences of the 'wacky cults'. There are a number of groups out there who are generally thought to be pretty way out, but in fact they are not. They are respectful to each other regardless of gender. That's not to say, of course, that all groups respect their women. BUT I really do think it is very worrying indeed when people use the term 'cult' as a catch-all perjorative term. 'Cult', or movement, after all, are incredibly diverse. So many of the, shall we say, quieter ones who just get on wih things, cannot be criticised on these accounts. I do think people tend to say 'Cults' to mean crazy awful religious people. But that's just not fair. So many that I have encountered do choose this way of life, and one can't just say they are oppressed when they don't feel oppressed. It's like the anhtropologists of the 19th C calling black people 'savages' and wishing to educate them (yes, quite an extreme example granted). Having said that of course, you're right, there are some frightening groups out there. Oh, and I'm Englsih - I have had absolutely no experience of the right wing fundamentals you talked about. it was interesting reading that. Kate – I’m not going to disagree with you as such. Yes, I’ve done a lot of research, but only into a very small number of groups, and to be fair your experience is just as valid as mine.
I don’t think what I wrote last night was terribly clear. What I was really trying to say is that it is a great worry when generalisations are made about religious groups. What you and Twisty said, I am certain, is not based upon rubbish the media churns out, but based on your experiences of the ‘wacky cults’. There are a number of groups out there who are generally thought to be pretty way out, but in fact they are not. They are respectful to each other regardless of gender. That’s not to say, of course, that all groups respect their women. BUT I really do think it is very worrying indeed when people use the term ‘cult’ as a catch-all perjorative term. ‘Cult’, or movement, after all, are incredibly diverse. So many of the, shall we say, quieter ones who just get on wih things, cannot be criticised on these accounts. I do think people tend to say ‘Cults’ to mean crazy awful religious people. But that’s just not fair. So many that I have encountered do choose this way of life, and one can’t just say they are oppressed when they don’t feel oppressed. It’s like the anhtropologists of the 19th C calling black people ’savages’ and wishing to educate them (yes, quite an extreme example granted).
Having said that of course, you’re right, there are some frightening groups out there. Oh, and I’m Englsih – I have had absolutely no experience of the right wing fundamentals you talked about. it was interesting reading that.

]]> By: Twisty http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9638 Twisty Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:36:43 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9638 Anna, I don't doubt that there are less toxic versions of Christianity than the extremist one getting all the press here in the States. My own parents are a couple of tasteful Presbyterians who could not be less in-your-face about it. They're pro-choice and they like homos and brown people and women. But the damage being done by the holy-roller godbags cannot be ignored. Anna, I don’t doubt that there are less toxic versions of Christianity than the extremist one getting all the press here in the States. My own parents are a couple of tasteful Presbyterians who could not be less in-your-face about it. They’re pro-choice and they like homos and brown people and women. But the damage being done by the holy-roller godbags cannot be ignored.

]]> By: Anna http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9630 Anna Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:29:17 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9630 What your write, Twisty, refers to fundamentalism. And what you write with respect to that, I can only applaud. But you are very mistaken in suggesting that fundamentalism=religion or even =organised religion. I guess over ther in the States you have a very local lunatic community in the evangelicals which taints your view of things, but I can assure you there are many, many dedicated Christians out there who watch these people in total bewilderment. You seem to see a stark either-or alternative between woman-bashing and religion-bashing. Fine news for (feminist, highly educated, take-no-shit) religious women. Check out this post http://hugoboy.typepad.com/hugo_schwyzer/2006/01/naomi_wolf_jesu.html and the links to Elizabeth Cady Stanton. What your write, Twisty, refers to fundamentalism. And what you write with respect to that, I can only applaud. But you are very mistaken in suggesting that fundamentalism=religion or even =organised religion. I guess over ther in the States you have a very local lunatic community in the evangelicals which taints your view of things, but I can assure you there are many, many dedicated Christians out there who watch these people in total bewilderment. You seem to see a stark either-or alternative between woman-bashing and religion-bashing. Fine news for (feminist, highly educated, take-no-shit) religious women.

Check out this post http://hugoboy.typepad.com/hugo_schwyzer/2006/01/naomi_wolf_jesu.html and the links to Elizabeth Cady Stanton.

]]> By: Twisty http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9622 Twisty Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:14:22 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9622 Thanks for this story, Kate. It's just what I needed to hear after two days of All S&M All The Time. Thanks for this story, Kate. It’s just what I needed to hear after two days of All S&M All The Time.

]]> By: kate http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9605 kate Sat, 28 Jan 2006 02:41:53 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9605 "and from my observations, women are given as much time as men to discuss their views. And, down the list, the more secular concerns such as employment - men and women are all employed, men aren’t expected to have higher jobs than their wife etc because, frankly, they don’t give a shit what they do just so long as they’ve got enough to live by. Finally, in heaven (or on earth in the new Millenium, i.e. post-apocalypse, they do believe that sex divisions will not be a factor." I highly disagree, although I respect that you have done much research and analysis, whereas my observation was through casual acquaintance made with such people of the various degrees of "christian faith". I grew up in the midwest, more south than north and saw many, many variations of fundamentalism and grew up in a mainstream protestant household. I can say unequivocably that women who live under the "faith" of christianity must by and large accept a doctrine which preaches that women are second class citizens, untrustworthy and potentially the dirtiest whores if allowed to deviate from male control. The fact that women work now is more economic than cultural I'd postulate, particularly as you go further down the socio-economic ladder. If given the choice, these women wouldn't be working and I am sure that the work they perform/jobs they hold have little if any power and are consistent with subservient and traditional female roles. Also, I'd posit that most are in a 'safe' and more controlled environment also. Not too many cocktail waitresses or positions that require years of independent education and training; i.e., nurse. These women, like so many, act out on the promise that following the patriarchy with complete obedience will bring some great reward, whether in the end or now, because the lie of the patriarchy is that the beautiful princess gets to live happily ever after...good girls shall be rewarded. At sixty I meet them again all the time as well and they tell me, "If only I knew then what I know now...I've wasted my whole life." ********* As for the 'invisibility' thing. I remember my mother telling me, 'menopause was the best thing that happened to me, no more men to bother with and now I can do what I want.' Well, that's all well and good, but at 30 I had to digest that for awhile to understand it. Then at 35 I was given an antidepressent during a particularly difficult time in my life (couldn't be poverty, single parenthood, social ostracization could it have been?). I quit the stupid drugs about six months after, choosing instead to stop being a victim. BUT...in the process I gained a lot of weight and men stopped looking at me. I looked like a clown in my mind and it seemed a whole part of my identity had been stripped -- being attractive to men. No matter what I wore, or what I said, I was still the fat girl. I still haven't conquered the weight, but at 40, I am more concerned with my health than what any man might think. Women are highly discriminated against based on their appearance and I have had to learn to ignore it instead of being angry. I dress for comfort. Jeans, sweatshirt, doc martens or boots (depending on what I'm doing). I haven't touched make-up in ages. I brush my hair and that's good. I run a business and meet people on a regular basis. Women don't find me threatening anymore, men take me for all business and nothing else. No stares while I stand in line at the grocery store, no honks or hoots when out walking, no "Hey honey...." come-ons to annoy. Yeah, overall, I'd say its better, even been healing to be fat and be me, but it took some time to get here. Sure, I'd like to be thinner, but more because I'm concerned about heart disease and wanting to feel lighter and healthier. I'll tell you one thing. I'd have no problem now speaking my mind to any idiot who'd come on to me if I ever were to lose weight. I've changed and cannot go back. Thank God. “and from my observations, women are given as much time as men to discuss their views. And, down the list, the more secular concerns such as employment – men and women are all employed, men aren’t expected to have higher jobs than their wife etc because, frankly, they don’t give a shit what they do just so long as they’ve got enough to live by. Finally, in heaven (or on earth in the new Millenium, i.e. post-apocalypse, they do believe that sex divisions will not be a factor.”

I highly disagree, although I respect that you have done much research and analysis, whereas my observation was through casual acquaintance made with such people of the various degrees of “christian faith”.

I grew up in the midwest, more south than north and saw many, many variations of fundamentalism and grew up in a mainstream protestant household. I can say unequivocably that women who live under the “faith” of christianity must by and large accept a doctrine which preaches that women are second class citizens, untrustworthy and potentially the dirtiest whores if allowed to deviate from male control.

The fact that women work now is more economic than cultural I’d postulate, particularly as you go further down the socio-economic ladder. If given the choice, these women wouldn’t be working and I am sure that the work they perform/jobs they hold have little if any power and are consistent with subservient and traditional female roles. Also, I’d posit that most are in a ’safe’ and more controlled environment also. Not too many cocktail waitresses or positions that require years of independent education and training; i.e.,
nurse.

These women, like so many, act out on the promise that following the patriarchy with complete obedience will bring some great reward, whether in the end or now, because the lie of the patriarchy is that the beautiful princess gets to live happily ever after…good girls shall be rewarded.

At sixty I meet them again all the time as well and they tell me, “If only I knew then what I know now…I’ve wasted my whole life.”

*********
As for the ‘invisibility’ thing. I remember my mother telling me, ‘menopause was the best thing that happened to me, no more men to bother with and now I can do what I want.’

Well, that’s all well and good, but at 30 I had to digest that for awhile to understand it.

Then at 35 I was given an antidepressent during a particularly difficult time in my life (couldn’t be poverty, single parenthood, social ostracization could it have been?). I quit the stupid drugs about six months after, choosing instead to stop being a victim.

BUT…in the process I gained a lot of weight and men stopped looking at me. I looked like a clown in my mind and it seemed a whole part of my identity had been stripped — being attractive to men. No matter what I wore, or what I said, I was still the fat girl.

I still haven’t conquered the weight, but at 40, I am more concerned with my health than what any man might think. Women are highly discriminated against based on their appearance and I have had to learn to ignore it instead of being angry.

I dress for comfort. Jeans, sweatshirt, doc martens or boots (depending on what I’m doing). I haven’t touched make-up in ages. I brush my hair and that’s good.

I run a business and meet people on a regular basis. Women don’t find me threatening anymore, men take me for all business and nothing else. No stares while I stand in line at the grocery store, no honks or hoots when out walking, no “Hey honey….” come-ons to annoy.

Yeah, overall, I’d say its better, even been healing to be fat and be me, but it took some time to get here. Sure, I’d like to be thinner, but more because I’m concerned about heart disease and wanting to feel lighter and healthier.

I’ll tell you one thing. I’d have no problem now speaking my mind to any idiot who’d come on to me if I ever were to lose weight. I’ve changed and cannot go back. Thank God.

]]> By: Clare http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9598 Clare Sat, 28 Jan 2006 01:21:03 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9598 I've spent a bit of time with women in Christian movements for research, and am planning to again for the future. In talking to them, I learnt that the oppression that they really feel comes from wider society assuming that they are all doormats and loonies etc for believing what they believe. The groups that I'm familiar with, what some may call Christian cults / sects are looking towards a post-apocalyptic time in which gender differences don't matter. Now, they are trying to live their lives in the way they see appropriate. Some of the things they believe may well seem quite offensive to feminists, and I struggle with some of their doctrine still. But what I try to remember is that they CHOSE to be part of that group for reasons I don't understand because I'm not religiously inclined. Don't get me wrong, I do agree with the stuff you're addressing in this post generally speaking. BUt there are groups out there (and look, I do know, I got my BA studying them) that women do freely choose to join. I'm trying to understand from their point of view, and it is hard. But for some groups the choice does exist. I do feel I have to make some comment when I've talked at length to women who are saddened (and some very distressed at times) about the oppression they feel from women dismissing them as 'doormat cult members' (as they have put it). They have different priorites. Eg. Serving God - big priority (obviously), they all do it. Evangelising - deeply deeply important - they all do it, men and women, exactly the same. Learning about their faith - they all do it together, and from my observations, women are given as much time as men to discuss their views. And, down the list, the more secular concerns such as employment - men and women are all employed, men aren't expected to have higher jobs than their wife etc because, frankly, they don't give a shit what they do just so long as they've got enough to live by. Finally, in heaven (or on earth in the new Millenium, i.e. post-apocalypse, they do believe that sex divisions will not be a factor. So I don't think it's possible to speak of all 'cults' as oppressing women. Yes, in our eyes (and I do include my own, as I've said, I do struggle with this subject terribly) they are oppressed. But looking at them in their own terms they feel an oppression more in people's attitudes, asumptions and expectations than the male members. I'll stop there, taking up too much room! I know this comment wasn't hugely relevent to the post as you were thinking more about Muslim groups (cannot possibly comment, not my field), but I just thought I'd say... I’ve spent a bit of time with women in Christian movements for research, and am planning to again for the future. In talking to them, I learnt that the oppression that they really feel comes from wider society assuming that they are all doormats and loonies etc for believing what they believe. The groups that I’m familiar with, what some may call Christian cults / sects are looking towards a post-apocalyptic time in which gender differences don’t matter. Now, they are trying to live their lives in the way they see appropriate. Some of the things they believe may well seem quite offensive to feminists, and I struggle with some of their doctrine still. But what I try to remember is that they CHOSE to be part of that group for reasons I don’t understand because I’m not religiously inclined.
Don’t get me wrong, I do agree with the stuff you’re addressing in this post generally speaking. BUt there are groups out there (and look, I do know, I got my BA studying them) that women do freely choose to join. I’m trying to understand from their point of view, and it is hard. But for some groups the choice does exist.
I do feel I have to make some comment when I’ve talked at length to women who are saddened (and some very distressed at times) about the oppression they feel from women dismissing them as ‘doormat cult members’ (as they have put it). They have different priorites. Eg. Serving God – big priority (obviously), they all do it. Evangelising – deeply deeply important – they all do it, men and women, exactly the same. Learning about their faith – they all do it together, and from my observations, women are given as much time as men to discuss their views. And, down the list, the more secular concerns such as employment – men and women are all employed, men aren’t expected to have higher jobs than their wife etc because, frankly, they don’t give a shit what they do just so long as they’ve got enough to live by. Finally, in heaven (or on earth in the new Millenium, i.e. post-apocalypse, they do believe that sex divisions will not be a factor.
So I don’t think it’s possible to speak of all ‘cults’ as oppressing women. Yes, in our eyes (and I do include my own, as I’ve said, I do struggle with this subject terribly) they are oppressed. But looking at them in their own terms they feel an oppression more in people’s attitudes, asumptions and expectations than the male members.
I’ll stop there, taking up too much room! I know this comment wasn’t hugely relevent to the post as you were thinking more about Muslim groups (cannot possibly comment, not my field), but I just thought I’d say…

]]> By: Feministe » Links, etc. http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9592 Feministe » Links, etc. Sat, 28 Jan 2006 00:08:56 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9592 [...] Twisty writes A Cult Is A Cult Is A Cult, about invisibility, feminism, aging and religion. [...] [...] Twisty writes A Cult Is A Cult Is A Cult, about invisibility, feminism, aging and religion. [...]

]]> By: Twisty http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/21/a-cult-is-a-cult-is-a-cult/#comment-9265 Twisty Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:48:04 +0000 http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/?p=422#comment-9265 I feel ya, asalfi. Since I got my boob chopped off and all my hair fell out, there is nothing remotely "sexy" about me anymore, and I'd be lying if I said it hasn't been quite the revelation. I feel ya, asalfi. Since I got my boob chopped off and all my hair fell out, there is nothing remotely “sexy” about me anymore, and I’d be lying if I said it hasn’t been quite the revelation.

]]>