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Mar 05 2006

South Dakota and Libya: Blood Brothers in Misogyny

A significant portion of the patriarchy-blamer’s ideological day is spent pondering the subject of rape. Rape is, as we have seen, the founding principle of patriarchy and the model from which patriarchy’s most popular form of propaganda, porn, takes its inspiration. Rape isn’t just a subset of unrelated incidents perpetrated by a fringe contingent of sickos. It is, as Susan Brownmilller asserted, “a conscious process by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.”

If you are a man, and you don’t rape women, well, goody for you, but if you email me with some inane vituperation about how your personal noble restraint invalidates Brownmiller’s statement, you will only embarrass yourself. No matter what kind of man you are, you benefit in a thousand different ways from the violent sexualization of women’s subordination. Actual rapists have got the initial shock and awe covered, but they’re only the infantry; it’s up to the rest of you to finish the job.

You do this by demonizing feminists, by renting women for lap dances, by letting rapists off the hook in court, by buying cheap crap Victoria’s Secret thongs for your woman, by congratulating your girlfriend on her boob job, by ignoring mass rapes in Rwanda, by passing along the URL to Paris Hilton’s fuck video, by ogling that girl at the bus stop, by letting your mom do your laundry, by “giving away” a bride, by voting control of women’s uteruses over to godbag politicians, by pressuring your girlfriend to take it up the ass because all your friends are doin’ it, by having an opinion on the size of human labia, by arguing that stripping is “empowering,” by claiming you’re “hardwired” to be turned on by women who emulate the ludicrous fashion practices of strippers and centerfolds, by your inability to conceive of sex without dominance, and by refusing, despite 30 years of intelligent, educated women telling you otherwise, to concede that you don’t really, truly view women as human beings in anything approaching the same light in which you view yourself.

But women, you might be inclined to argue, having heard somewhere that some men have started doing housework, have it so much better now. You think so? Then how is it that an American woman is raped every couple of minutes, and that 78% of these rapists are husbands, boyfriends, or dates? Less than 16% of these rapes are reported. Less than half of those are prosecuted. The average amount of time these few convicted dickwads spend in the clink: 11 months.

The dehumanizing groundwork laid by these rapists forms an excellent foundation upon which to build many a creatively misogynist cultural practice. The women of South Dakota, some of the first casualties in the impending gynocide, have been bought and paid for by some lunatic bid to overturn Roe in the Supreme Court. Such a thing would not have been possible in a culture where women are viewed as you are viewed: as something beyond the essence of sex.

Is the connection between rape and modern civilization’s Xtreme Mxogyny still too fuzzy for you? Then let’s check out Libya, where they don’t pussyfoot around. It’s crystal-fucking-clear in Libya. Like in the US, getting raped in Libya is a crime. The difference is that in Libya they dispense with the charade of joke trials for rapists that really punish the rape victims. in Libya, you go directly to jail. I’m talking about the victims, not the rapists. Getting raped is punishable by indefinite detention without legal representation.

That’s right. According to the Human Rights Watch, Libya actually imprisons women for the crime of “moral misconduct,” claiming it is for their own good. Like uterus-owning South Dakota, which is protecting women from themselves, or rapist-loving Illinois, which lets rapists go free despite videotaped evidence, Libya cannot trust women to make their own decisions, or put rapists in jail. So they just lock up these inconvenient women in “rehabilitation centers.”

“We let the ones with good behavior work, the ones that don’t raise their voices, the ones that sleep quietly.”

Who are these women? Rape victims, women who have had unapproved consensual sex, “illegally” pregnant women, prostitutes, homeless women, or, as one Libyan attorney puts it, “anyone with families who … want to get rid of their daughters for any reason.”

Nada Mounir, seventeen, was brought to [the Benghazi Home for Juvenile Girls] on April 21, 2005 after the death of a relative who tried to rape her. She attacked him with a knife in self-defense, and he subsequently died of complications. She told Human Rights Watch, “[h]e tried to rape me but he didn’t succeed. My parents were in another house. He came from behind the house. He kissed me. He had a knife. He pulled me down by my hair and said he was going to do it but I took the knife and stabbed him. I told my mother about it. She took me to the police station. They [the police] took me to the prosecutor who brought me here.” Her family refuses to visit her or agree to take custody of her. She does not have a lawyer.

Once they’re in, the only way out is for a male family member to “claim” them. This claiming requirement applies even if the woman in question is an adult and has committed no crime other than that of having been raped. Because male family members generally want nothing to do with them, they are left hanging until some stranger agrees to marry them. This results in male fuckwads lurking around the detention centers looking to score some prison pussy.

Libya feels it is on the cutting edge of progressive thought when it provides prisons for these women instead of just letting their families kill them outright. “In the street there is no protection for them,” they say. But in Libya, “protection” means they are locked up, handcuffed, held in isolation, forced to sit through religious lectures, deprived of education, of hygiene, and of contact with the outside world. They are forced to endure invasive “virginity examinations.” If they escape, they are brought back.

In South Dakota, rape victims who get pregnant aren’t thrown in an actual prison, but it’s hard to think of compulsory pregnancy in any other way. Unless you’re a guy.

[thanks for the tip, Holly]

77 comments

9 pings

  1. Kyra

    Less than 16% of these rapes are reported. Less than half of those are prosecuted.

    You forgot: and about 5% of these lead to a conviction.

    Sickening, and that doesn’t even begin to describe it.

  2. Kyra

    The average amount of time these few convicted dickwads spend in the clink: 11 months.

    Because, apparently, if sentences were raised, juries would refuse to convict them (more often?) because they wouldn’t think it was enough of a crime to be deserving of an increased sentence, even if they thought he was guilty.

    My mother said this to argue for whichever-southern-state-it-was’s refusal to make domestic violence a felony when they made cockfighting a felony.

    *head going to explode from everything*

  3. A White Bear

    Yikes, Twisty. Virginity’s valued so much a girl thinks if she kills her rapist, she’ll be a hero, but there she is in jail. I remember when I was a young Baptist kid, everyone at church made virginity seem like such a big deal, I remember coming home to my folks and saying, “Losing it before I’m married would be worse than death,” wanting to sign the True Love Waits pledge. My mom refused to let me sign it, saying that I had no idea what my life would turn out to be, and if all I valued in myself was my V, I wasn’t worth much. Of course, my parents have never forgiven me for going on to live in sin, but at least they’ve acknowledged I’m worth more than that.

  4. A White Bear

    Is there an international legal defense network for women in Nada Mounir’s situation? Anyone?

  5. Galloise Blonde

    Twisty, you need to fix the link to the HRW report. Another detail is that the only education the girls and women receive is religious (read: patriarchal indoctrination) and that they can be kept in solitary for ‘talking back’. This imprsonment thing happens in Jordan and Pakistan also. And probably everywhere else where they can get away with it.

  6. Pony

    There are a couple, which seem to be tied to the UN. One also, most unfortunately, is tied to a fashion/fetishist magazine we all know. I implore women NOT to give money to the effort led by this magazine, who are cynically using sexual slavery and degradation for their profit. Bypass them completely if you want to donate or support women.

    http://www.un.org/Pubs/chronicle/2005/webArticles/110905_Trafficking.html
    ““An ounce of cocaine, wholesale, [costs] $1,200, but you can only sell it once. A woman or a child, [costs] $50 to $1,000, but you can sell them each day, every day, over and over and over again. The markup is immeasurable.”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pakistan/mckenna_pakistan.html
    “The girl was dragged to a room in that house. One Mastoi brother named Halik was holding a pistol. First she was beaten and then she was raped several times by them. She was kept in that house for four days.”
    In Pakistan, tradition dictates that a woman who has been raped is forever shamed.
    Mukhtar Mai says that her first instinct after being gang raped was to commit suicide.

    http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/jan/21mai.htm
    Mai’s talk to the UN in January was cancelled after Musharaff’s governement talked to their contemporaries in the U.S. who talked to someone at the U.N.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20060304-1220-bush.html
    This week, Bush travelled to Pakistan for some photo ops with Musharaff.
    “ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – President Bush praised Pakistan’s fight against terrorism as unfaltering Saturday {blah blah blah}…

  7. Cass

    Kyra: that was one of the Carolinas, the same one that regularly leads the nation in D.V. murders per capita. And I’ve heard that bullshit rationalization also…

  8. Twisty

    Link fixed. Sorry.

  9. Cass

    This sounds almost exactly like those “Magdelene laundries” the Church operated in Ireland until very recently. Those of course were also the work of compassionate men: taking pity on rape and molestation victims by imprisoning them, telling them it was entirely their fault and that they’re assured now of an eternity in Hell. On the other hand, what would society be like without these gentlemen’s moral leadership?

  10. firefly

    Magdalen Laundries anyone? Wasn’t that long ago they were shut (and my aunt was almost sent to them in the 1930′s by the nuns in Boston.) Which brings me to my most loathed Catholic Saint-St. Maria Goretti (died 1902) Italian patron saint of rape victims. The nuns I had growing up loved telling her story to all the young girls. This is quoted from Catholic Online
    “In 1902 an eighteen-year-old neighbor, Alexander, grabbed her from her steps and tried to rape her. When Maria said that she would rather died than submit, Alexander began stabbing her with a knife.

    As she lay in the hospital, she forgave Alexander before she died. Her death didn’t end her forgivness, however.

    Alexander was captured and sentenced to thirty years. He was unrepentant until he had a dream that he was in a garden. Maria was there and gave him flowers. When he woke, he was a changed man, repenting of his crime and living a reformed life. When he was released after 27 years he went directly to Maria’s mother to beg her forgiveness, which she gave. “If my daughter can forgive him, who am I to withold forgiveness,” she said. ”

    The nuns would then go on to say how if faced with rape we should die protecting our virtue. It’s disgusting how many parishes and schools are named after this saint.

  11. kyangadac

    Pony,you’re so right, I”d bet killing Mai’s interview was such an easy thing for the White House to fix just to smooth the waters for the current visit. Aziz’s comment (“I have no idea. You have informed me and so have some other people as I was walking in. I do not know how the place functions,”) about the cancellation is a dead giveaway – some other people indeed.

    First time here BTW, nice place, so refreshing to see the blame game being pursued so vigorously. I was beginning to think it was all my fault.

  12. Pony

    Whenever the subject of women’s degradation in other (eastern, Asian, African) countries comes up in conjunction with OUR degradation, we are sometimes even by ourselves, constrained to make favourable comparisons. What do WE have to complain about?

    Just in case you were, you know, thinking it’s sooo much better here. Or thinking, you know, the men of the left were definitely on your side:

    WARNING: graphic content
    http://www.hustlingtheleft.com/chomsky/index.html

  13. ginmar

    The men on the left are just as bad as the men on the right, it’s just that they expect to get rewarded with sex for it, while the Righties hate sex. Somewhere in there is a tiny sh red of difference.

    Whenever I have a discussion about rape on my blog and talk about how women live in fear, some guy invariably pops up and says that the true tragedy is that women’s fear is so awful for men to live with. Why, it has an effect on men’s chances of dating some women! It has on those women’s choices. The patriachy just treats men awfully by damaging the women they want to fuck.

  14. Hattie

    Yes, and there is such a good article in Counterpunch defending those nice rapists and pedophiles getting picked on by the criminal justice system. Waaaah!
    http://www.counterpunch.org/pariah03042006.html

  15. Cass

    firefly: I wonder who was at Maria’s bedside to record this touching story? If I was an 18 year old laying in a hospital bed in agony, watching my young life life bleed away because of the actions of a psychotic stranger, I don’t think the welfare of that stranger would be the first thing on my mind. It makes a nice object lesson for our sex, though, that no matter how much some man fucks up your existence, you should never get angry over it.

  16. amaz0n

    I think you might be misinterpreting the link you posted about Chomsky, Pony. As Nikki Craft went to great lengths to point out on that very webpage, Chomsky was 100% tricked into doing an interview with Hustler, whose writers misrepresented the nature of the magazine and certainly didn’t tell him that they wanted to publish his words next to pictures of exploited women. I think Nikki makes it very clear that she doesn’t believe Chomsky was at fault, and that he was a victim in that situation.

  17. Kat

    The world is leaving me increasingly speechless. I’m shocked, I want to say something, but nothing coherent is coming out. Just, fucking…fuck.

  18. Luckynkl

    Hmmm…. I wonder what would happen if every woman in the state of SD & MS, just got up and left? As far as I know, there’s no law which prohibits women from moving.

    What if women en masse moved from any state which attempted to practice what amounts to animal husbandry on them?

    What if every woman in the U.S. decided to move to say, Wyoming, and took over the legislature there by voting in their own through sheer numbers? And in doing so, could declare Wyoming a free and safe state for women?

    And just in case the feds get any bright ideas, there is always the option that women could leave the U.S. altogether. I’m sure more than a few countries would open their doors to us. Especially when they gleefully realize that America would go the way of the dinosaur without any women to reproduce any more Americans.

    I think it would be kind of fun to watch these swaggering American boys wallowing in their own shit and stink. Making laws which basically would apply to ghosts. No one to wait on them hand and foot, no one to serve them their meals, no one to wash their streaked underwear or clean up their messes, no one to rape or fuck but each other. Now that’s what I would call poetic justice.

    Hmmm… maybe the patriarchy’s cards aren’t quite as stacked as we think. Seems to me, we have a trump card or two up our sleeve just waiting to be played.

    What if?

  19. Edith

    I like your idea, Luckynkl. The right to move — still goin’ strong in all 50 states!

    But wouldn’t it be better to force the MEN to move? Say, run them out?

    That would be something.

  20. Pony

    Well that interview could be taken two ways. Is she letting him hang himself, as a good journalist should do and not put words in his mouth or come to conclusions *for* him, or us? She asks again, to make it clear, to draw him out. He lays it down. He didn’t bother to check. He doesn’t get anyone else to check. He’s real real concerned about the interview he did for the Nazi paper. Aw shucks.

    Or, is she ignoring the obvious; that Chomsky’s a chump. Well someone’s ignoring the obvious.

  21. Pony

    This is the opening page of that website. Looks like Chomsky’s got company. Now Palast comes right out and makes his stance clear. He’s a real swinger for the left oh yes indeed.

    Caldicott? That’s a bad one.

    http://www.hustlingtheleft.com/index.html

    What were these people thinking. Or were they thinking at all? I just do not buy that they were unaware of what H***ler does. As the note on the opening page down right tell us, there are lefties who wouldn’t have touched this barge with a 10 foot pole.

  22. Tam

    I remember my usually well-intentioned husband shocking the hell out of me when he announced that he thought the ’1 in 4′ rape statistic was an exaggeration.

    ‘I don’t know anyone who’s been raped,’ he announced blithely.

    ‘Yes, you DO,’ I said. ‘They just haven’t told you. I bet they haven’t told any of their male friends or acquaintances. Why would they?’

    And he just looked at me, shocked, and said ‘I know a rape victim? Who?’

    See, right there, that’s why they won’t tell you…

    When I think of the women I know well and who have confided in me, the 1 in 4 statistic seems to be dead-on, and very possibly, to be underestimating the problem. And yet men like my husband are in complete denial that a quarter of all women here get raped, and that these women might include their family members, their friends, their girlfriends. To them, it’s something that happens in Libya.

  23. CafeSiren

    Huh. Interesting idea. I hear Wyoming’s pretty. And the thought of the first woman-friendly state being Ain’t-I-a-Dick Cheney’s just makes me smile.

  24. Betsy

    We definitely have the trump card. The thing that keeps us from playing it is that we to go along with the patriarchal game for short-term reward. It’s kind of a scab mechanism: if you stand with your sisters, you could win in the long run, but the short-term reward of breaking the picket is is higher at least temporarily.

    So instead of taking collective action on our own behalf, like refusing sex or voting en masse, we trade individually and temporarily on our femininity for gain, blowing our advantage.

    That’s why I have so much contempt for women who give in and play the patriarchal game. They ruin things for the rest of us.

  25. alyx

    “The men on the left are just as bad as the men on the right, it’s just that they expect to get rewarded with sex for it, while the Righties hate sex.”

    Usually I nod my head vigorously when Ginmar posts, but I have to shake my head on this one. I don’t deny there’s a strong tradition of puritanism in the culture’s sexual taboos, but to me the idea that “Righties hate sex” seems to be a myth perpetuated Lefty men who like to see themselves as ‘sexual rebels’ thumbing their noses at a puritanical majority. (plus, not all righties are religious. At least, not in Oz.)

    Christian Right-wing dudes beat off to Hustler, get lap-dances and use prostitutes–they just do it covertly, so their image as an upstanding Husband/Father and the model of Good Christian Citizenship is all people see. But that’s just Bull n’ Bluster.

    Public stances on morality rarely reflect the people’s personal code of moral conduct. Especially moral naked conduct.

  26. Pony

    Hold on just a minute.

    I don’t think I know any women who are “{the kind of } women who give in and play the patriarchal game.”

    Play we might. It’s a complicated emotional game and yes, we’re on the field. But we’re not giving in.

  27. kate

    Women are up for bargaining when it comes to politics as usual. The shuttling of the testimony of the Pakistani woman for the sake of Bush’s diplomacy show surprises me little. The Libyan rape camps disgust me but surprise little as well. The lengths that men in our world will go to dehumanize and degrade women is immeaurable.

    Women in our culture and cultures everywhere are kept ignorant about the ways in which other women routinely stand up and fight when their bodies threaten violation. Even when faced with the knowledge that no matter what action they take, they lose, they still fight to defend themselves.

    This in and of itself is testimony enough against the constant trumpeting by patriarchy pushers that women, by their makeup, belong restrained to the bed and the kitchen.

    With the availability of materials and information here in this country, women could conceivably demand more and get more. Hell, they make up the majority of the population. But by willful ignorance, they rein in themselves and the rest of us.

    The godbags effectively shamed most middle class women into not listening to feminists who preach about an egalitarian social order that places women on equal footing with men. Women still place themselves in the position of decoration for men. As long as they see their existance tied to the approval of men and not ‘feelie’ men, but macho men that the patriarchal system pushes out as the pillars of their doctrine.

    As long as women seek out these men and give them their approval, in the hopes that their own womenhood is thus affirmed and approved, they will continue to be the doctrainaires of the patriarchy and women will go nowhere.

    To reach these women, to overcome the seeds of hate of the godbags so that they will hear the truth, is the next fight for the feminists. I have yet no idea how in the hell our voices will be heard above the cacophony of patriarchy and its co-conspirators.

    As for chomsky:
    How a man can spend his whole life willfully shuttered away from mass media to the point where he isn’t even aware of the most fundamentally outrageous media seems incomprehensible to me….oh wait, he’s a man.

    Men don’t have to engage with society, even if they have children. They can elect to have the woman do that for them while they engage in more important pursuits.

    How could I have forgotten that?

    And as long as women do 99% percent of child rearing, family caring and house caring, I guess they will have to choose to be spinster aunts in order to enjoy the luxury of completely isolating from the ilk of society to sputter out book after book and lecture after lecture.

    That’s the gist of the problem pretty much right there. Women have to get their hands dirty in the washin’ and the baby tendin’ all day and that pretty much keeps them dependent. Change that and then you’ll see women be free. I think.

  28. kate

    Post slightly off topic but still generally there:

    I just posted about my rape experience on a blog that I thought was primarily a feminist blog. The issue was the Chicago rape acquittal. The female blogger asked for posters to post about their feelings and experiences with rape.

    Deciding to offer up an honest example i posted about my experiences with the patriarchy, in summary form, but still in enough detail to feel as though I exposing a very vulnerable side of myself.

    I scrolled the posts quickly first, seemed the typical stuff about ‘i never thought..’ and people’s musings. Thought I’d offer up what she wanted.

    When I scrolled again after posting, I realized that there were some very virulent pro rapist comments.

    I would have appreciated if, in the interest of honesty, that this feminist blogger had said that the comments were unmoderated and that men and women were allowed to post whatever without interference or moderation.

    I felt cheated. I had assumed the mantle of safety allowed by Twisty and some other feminist blogs and ventured forth bearing my ass to the wind. Now I feel defiled all over again.

    I just want to say that the patriarchy is SO extremely all pervasive, that women MUST protect their safe places to speak and to think without interference from assholes who on every other front jam their shit brained fucktard ‘truths’ on us everyday.

    To those posting here, do not take your safety here for granted like I did, not all feminsts blogs are the same or quite as willing to take steps to allow for safe and understanding discourse free of the trampling and stomping that women regularly have to suffer in the ‘real’ world of media, entertainment, porn, religion and even their own homes.

  29. Pony

    Where?

  30. Tony Patti

    Why can’t we reframe the abortion debate as the compulsory pregnancy debate? Why talk about it in their terms at all?

    Forced pregnancy is the problem, not abortions. Abortion focuses the issue on the cute little babies being killed by the hairy-legged feminist doctors, rather than forced pregnancy, which focuses on you.

    And, dear kate: I’m so sorry you had to endure the abuse on that other blog. Men have no idea what it feels like to deal with rape. It’s one of the most common tenets of male privilege I can think of; held dear by liberals, conservatives, nice guys and assholes: Obliviousness.

    Men generally refuse to imagine or empathize with the female viewpoint. They think they can, but it’s always this crazy kind of drag queen “If I were a woman I could do anything I want, la la la!” kind of fantasy where they get to keep all their male privileges and look fabulous, too.

    They all need to be raped, leered at, patronized, ignored, etc etc. They need to live the dream to feel the pain.

  31. Pony

    Never mind where Kate. I don’t want to go there. Sites like that draw the rape fetishists.

    Never you mind Kate. Sleep tight.

  32. CafeSiren

    In response to Kate at 27:

    I remember how, by the time I got around to taking feminist theory in grad school, the weakness of Betty Freidan’s once-pathbreaking “Feminine Mystique” was obvious: her “problem that has no name” was the problem of middle-class white housewives, and feminists had since turned their attention to problems like FGM, the worldwide female underclass, date rape, “doubly differenced” women of color. Important, sure; and a feminism that speaks only to the white middle class woman had to adapt or die. But in the process, I think we unwisely left the middle-class white housewives to fend for themselves. A generation or more later, should we be surprised that many of them don’t see feminism as “about them” in the same way that god and family and kiddies are? And should we be surprised that the patriarchy was just waiting to pick up the slack?

    In short: We need a new Betty Friedan.

  33. Mandos

    In South Dakota, rape victims who get pregnant aren’t thrown in an actual prison, but it’s hard to think of compulsory pregnancy in any other way. Unless you’re a guy.

    FWIW there are apparently many women, perhaps suffering from Stockholm Syndrome (I’m annoyed by the formulation of this general concept but that’s another matter), who clearly don’t think of compulsory pregnancy that way.

    despite 30 years of intelligent, educated women telling you otherwise, to concede that you don’t really, truly view women as human beings in anything approaching the same light in which you view yourself.

    I’ll go one further. I don’t really look at anyone else in anything approaching the same light in which I view myself, for better or for worse. I’m not sure I know anyone who does. Is it even possible? Cogito ergo sum. The best we can do is to try to find a means of expression/language that distinguishes us from our experiences.

    Lastly it seems that you continue to claim that you can neutralize human perception, ie, that humans can be constructed that have no aesthetic sense. Oh, well. That’s a world in which we would only eat nutritious food, not tasty food, but I suppose that’s a small price to pay.

    (Why am I annoyed by the notion of the “Stockholm Syndrome”? Well, in the case of the generic hostage, is it categorially wrong to start to sympathize with the hostage-takers?)

  34. Lorenzo

    As usual, amazing post Twisty.

    Rape, as an individual act, and as a social phenomena is the crystalization of patriachy. It is the purest expression of the central belief of patriarchy; that women exist solely for men’s ends (be that reproduction, sexual gratification, unpaid labor both productive and socially reproductive, etc.).

  35. A White Bear

    Ugh, kate, that’s awful.

    This is why it’s so hard to fight from this side of the field. We fight by telling our stories and becoming vulnerable to one another, and they find their way in so they can get off on our vulnerability. I don’t want to fight they way they do.

  36. jaye

    Ah the mythical male left and male lefty bloggers! Seems the boy bloggers on the left can be just as sexist, just as misogynist. Post comments from a female perspective and wham one right up side the head. One popular one cussed me out in the comments section and sent me a personal cuss out email. So much for equality. Or perhaps he talks to his blogging buddies that way. I don’t read many blogs on the left because they are hateful toward women.

    And as much as the patriarchy does suck, I just don’t want to be violent with my condemnation of male perps. The violence of revenge and vengence makes me feel closer to those who would abuse me.

    Rape is usually not discussed on blogs on the left. Abortion is regarded as some whiney problem that women need to just quit discussing because it is so devisive and negative and hurting us at the polls.

    I agree that women need sacred spaces but do we do that at the expense of marginalizing ourselves?

    Women won’t tell men about their rape experiences because it is like being attacked all over again. I can’t tell you how painful it was when I told friends about my own father beating me in my own home when I was 27 years old. It was as if my words buzzed in their heads and they could not acknowledge what I said about my father. After he beat me in front of my husband and my mother, I ran out of my house and down the street to the firestation on the corner. One of the firemen burst into tears when he opened the door and saw me under the porchlight. They wrapped me in blankets and called the police. I was in Austin, Texas at the time and the police ride with social workers on domestic violence calls.

    This wasn’t the first time he had beat me, but it was the last.

    I told my friends and they had a more difficult time hearing it and helping me. They were supportive on the edges, but not in the face of it.

    I tried to kill myself a month later.

    Some called and came to see me in the hospital, but they could not accept why I was really there.

    It crushed me. I had tried to go to UT to work on my doctorate, but I just couldn’t focus on my GRE. It took me ten years of therapy–particularly the last seven–to get my act together and go to law school and graduate.

    That is why we don’t tell.

  37. Hissy Cat

    Kate, so sorry to hear that happened to you– some people are so disgusting and awful.

    Kathleen Hanna, from one my favorite bands, Le Tigre, who is a sexual abuse survivor, has this to say on the Le Tigre website:

    When sexual abuse first came to the fore front of North American popular culture (as a result of survivors working tirelessly for a really long time) there was a lot of information that suggested a big part of our problem is/was SILENCE. Of course since most sexual abuse is often unnamed and most perpetrators are never prosecuted or even confronted, this makes a lot of sense and has, in turn, resulted in a lot of emphasis being placed on women and girls being able to “tell our own stories”. While I agree that it is really really helpful to be able to talk about our experiences I also think it’s important to acknoweldge that many sexual abuse survivors have a hard time establishing healthy boundaries.

    As people who have been taught (or maybe “trained” is a better word)
    to think of ourselves as powerlesss and undeserving, it is often hard to feel like we have the right to decide who to date or who to be friends with, much less who is the best person to talk with about rape/abuse stuff. My fear is that, in many cases, women (such as myself) get so hung up on telling “our stories” that we often choose inappropriate people to tell them to. In doing this we refuse to protect ourselves sufficiently which may actually set our healing back. Especially if we end up being betrayed by yet another person who we relied on not to hurt us. What I am trying to say is YES it is important that we are able to talk about the less than pleasant, violent things that have happened to us, but it is equally important that we love ourselves enough to chose people who will be trustworthy and supportive when and if we decide to share with them.

    Sorry if that’s inappropriately long for posting in a comment. It’s something I think about a lot and that passage has particular significance for me, so I wanted to share it, for whatever it’s worth.

  38. wabewawa

    Pony wrote:
    I don’t think I know any women who are “{the kind of } women who give in and play the patriarchal game.”

    You perhaps don’t watch much television? Which I’m becoming increasingly unable to do myself. It seems to be the main propaganda machine for the patriarchy that I happen to encounter in my daily life. Certainly do appear to be a lot of women on there who have conceded the game and totally bought patriarchy’s bill of goods (and continue to try to sell it to the rest of us).

  39. Rene

    Speaking of South Dakota, I happened to catch part of an interview with a South Dakota congressman on Friday’s installment of The News Hour with Jim Lehrer. When this illustrious public servant was asked whether he could envision any circumstances in which an abortion could legitimately take place under the proposed law, via the “life of the mother” loophole, he said yes and then proceeded to describe, with obvious delectation, exactly what those circumstances might be. First, the victim/abortion candidate would be a recent virgin, a good Christian girl who had, before the surprise defloration, intended to save herself for her future husband. (Perhaps he should introduce legislation that would allow prospective husbands to sue rapists for interfering with their God-given hymen-rupturing prerogative. Just a thought.) Second, the rape would need to be “brutal” (as opposed to the sweet, tender, romantic-comedy rapes that are visited upon us sluts). He submitted that perhaps she would be so traumatized by losing her virginity that she might, you know, actually die from shame if the offending unborn was not extracted from her good Christian womb. I might have missed a few more examples of his brilliant ratiocination as I projectile-vomited all over the TV screen.

    Rene

  40. Kat

    Kate, I’m so sorry. *hug* I posted a personal experience on my blog recently and was hit by a troll. I moderate comments so it was never posted publicly, but I still had to read some complete stranger tell me I’m easy, stupid, and immature. They so desperately want us to shut up and take the blame.

  41. Cass

    I’m sorry also for your experience, Kate. What I’ve seen is that some men always want to be where the women are, and even if you try and shut them out they’ll stand with their noses pressed against the glass. Those are the same kind of men, unfortunately, that tend to have a less-than-healthy agenda as far as women are concerned. When it comes to painful personal experiences I would never personally feel safe on any web site… though some of that may just be me. In any case, please do what you have to to take care of yourself…

  42. Pony

    I don’t watch any television. I don’t own one. But I still don’t think there are those “kind of women”. I think we all, at times, have those lapses. We mostly recover.

  43. Sassy Pants

    Inspired once again by many of Twisty’s posts I created a survey to find out just how many woman have been effected by rape, assault, harrassment etc…

    I’m prepared to be horrified.

    If you’d like to participate, here’s the address.

    http://express.perseus.com/perseus/surveys/1734848031/30f83a7b.htm

  44. Pony

    And is the congressman planning to drag her through court, bring her church baking/Sunday school teaching schedule with her, make her watch the video (of course there was a video) and then, when she’s into live fetus abortion time say, oops too late. Dang.

    To the women here who have told their rape, to all the women who’ve been raped, given in for fear of rape, told it wasn’t rape, told they wanted rape, told they probably had an orgasm during rape but just’t didn’t have the courage to admit it…

    It is most sadly true. You are not alone. Bring it here.

  45. Pony

    Sassy Pants I kept something from your survey to put here.

    As I said in one of my earliest posts to Blame; we carry the dirt. Those of us who are raped, we carry the dirt. When we tell, we are nine times out of ten, in my experience, judged to be dirt, in varying degrees. Sometimes, men who hear think it’s open season on a slut.

    But telling family is the worst.

    I have no family.

  46. Pony

    Just seems like this is the place to put this. We are being confessional here. Some of us maybe saying things we’ve never said before. Because Twisty has made this a safe place for us. But I want to warn you we are being archived by google. Every word posted here can be found on google with a few well chosen words. It’s there, now, and will be 5, 15 years from now. For some of us this won’t matter one whit. For others, you may want to change some information, or protect yourself in some way. I wish I didn’t feel it necessary to say this.

  47. Cass

    I like what Hissy Cat said- or quoted- better than what I said. Obviously, this is issue is more complicated than the need to simply protect yourself… there’s a political dimension also to revealing the atrocities that are perpetrated on us in private, and the only reason wife- and child-abuse have become issues now, after thousands of years of “civilization”, is the willingness of lots of courageous women to reveal their pain to others. You just have to make your own decisions on this, based on your knowledge both of the audience you’re facing and your own emotional limits.

  48. Q Grrl

    I knew about Hustler when I was about nine. That would have been in 1976. …come to think about it, I remember it’s what the slighly older boys used to threaten me, I guess because they weren’t old enough to rape or molest me. /sarcasm

  49. Q Grrl

    Sassy Pants:

    You should have an “All of the Above” selection. :(

  50. Cass

    “(Why am I annoyed by the notion of the ‘Stockholm Syndrome’? Well, in the case of the generic hostage, is it categorically wrong to start to sympathize with the hostage-taker?)”

    This is of course not the definition of “the Stockholm Syndrome”, and a few seconds thought will show how stupid it is. It is obviously quite possible to have sympathy or compassion for a twisted or unhappy person, whether you’re being terrorized by them or not, without buying into their view of themselves, yourself, or the world at large. THAT is the definition of the Stockholm Syndrome.

  51. Cass

    “I don’t really look at anyone else in anything like the same light at which I look at myself, for better or worse. I’m not sure I know anyone who does. Is it even posible? Cogito ergo sum. The best we can do is try to find a means of expression/language which distinguishing us from our experiences.”

    Apart from the weirdly inappropriate and pretentious quote here, its hard to see what any of this means, much less what it has to do with Miss Faster’s point. Do you understand the concept of human ego development? Do you understand the difference between a grasping infant, narcissist, or sociopath, and an adult human being capable of giving and recieving love? Do you understand that sprinkling famous quotes in odd places makes you appear less, not more, educated?

  52. Sassy Pants

    I solemnly swear that my survey of women will be 100% moderated. No one will have to be subjected to being a victim a second time!

    I just don’t get it. Sigh…

  53. Tony Patti

    I use my own name on this forum, so I’m not about to talk about my experiences with rape, and I can only imagine many, many others are the same.

    As for all the women who have posted comments about how it feels to be a victim I say: Courage.

    I don’t have any. But I know exactly how much pain is involved in so many ways to talk about something that is at the very center of everything that’s wrong with the whole patriarchal mess we are in.

    Rape is everywhere, and most women kind of just take it and try to pretend it never happened, unless they end up in a situation where they have been so savaged that it becomes a matter of public record. And even then, it’s something to be avoided, it’s unthinkable, it’s soul-destroying in every way.

    So to all the women out there who aren’t about to discuss their experiences with rape I say: It’s easy to understand why if you give the slightest bit of empathetic thought to it. You want to warn others that it’s real, but exposing yourself just increases the degradation and pain.

  54. midwesterntransport

    Jaye, that’s awful. Horribly, horribly fucked up.

  55. Pony

    Congratulations Jaye on becoming a lawyer, on being able to persevere, in spite of. And thank you for this moving eloquent telling.

    Tony. I love seeing your posts and knowing–this is a GUY! I f anyone (besides me) calls me on continuing to being heterosexual, I can say

    “Tony Patti”.

  56. Occasional Expositor

    Love the blog – first time poster…

    The justice system sucks for victims of violence against women in most countries, even self-declared “enlightened” countries that deplore the “barbarity” of, for example, the Taliban (or Libya) — pot calling the kettle patriarchal if you ask me.

    What’s lured me out of my lurking is thinking about the idea of “breaking the silence” and trying to convey the impact of violence against women and the relatively recent phenomenon of “victim statements” in court. What irks me about this is… why the hell should a victim have to stand up in court and show how “damaged” she is in order for justice to be done?

    OK, I know justice is a joke when it comes to rape convictions, but should it make a difference in the sentencing if the victim has been scarred for life or just scarred for a long time. What if the victim manages to actually “deal with” the assault by the time the perp comes to trial (assuming he ever does)? Does this mean that the attacker should get a more lenient sentence? If not, what the hell is the victim statement for?

    I’m actually curious. Have rape survivors who have done victim statements found this empowering? Is it more about asserting personhood in the face of a perp who has attempted to de-personalize them? Or a futile attempt to get the courts to HEAR women?

  57. jaye

    Thank you, Pony. i haven’t passed my Bar yet, but you know that when I do, I will be working for women and children everyday.

    ‘Midwesterntransport–thank you for caring. I hope it didn’t upset you. It was soooo fucked up. It still fucks me up, but I am still trying to be gentle with myself.

    Stockholm Syndrome? You bet. I sometimes mentally beat myself up the way my father was judgmental of me and verbally abused me. How could I not be strong–like him? How could I not hate myself? I thought he was normal and I made him abuse me. So now, rather than identify with my abuser against myself, I try to be gentle and redefine strength. It doesn’t have to be anger or violence. I don’t have to do his anger and his hatred of himself against myself.

  58. Frumious B

    The dehumanizing groundwork laid by these rapists forms an excellent foundation upon which to build many a creatively misogynist cultural practice.

    News flash: Wanting equality makes women unhappy!
    http://www.slate.com/id/2137537/
    Wonder why that would be? Because we look around at our world and see just how creatively misogynistic it is? nah..

    And how the hell does anyone live in this country and not know what Hustler magazine is?

  59. Mandos

    This is of course not the definition of “the Stockholm Syndrome”, and a few seconds thought will show how stupid it is. It is obviously quite possible to have sympathy or compassion for a twisted or unhappy person, whether you’re being terrorized by them or not, without buying into their view of themselves, yourself, or the world at large. THAT is the definition of the Stockholm Syndrome.

    No, that’s what I meant. I wasn’t talking about “having sympathy or compassion for a twisted or unhappy person,” I was talking about worldviews. The term is usually used, in popular culture, for someone who not only feels “sorry” for their captors, but someone who starts to agree with their captor’s motives—in order to discredit not only the captor’s actions, but the entire background and point of view.

    That I find, in general, to be problematic.

  60. Pony

    The Men Of The Left:

    During the opening speeches at an international feminist conference in 1968, one of the speakers told how, one morning, her man, BIG LEFT, on his way out to the REVOLUTION wrote on their fridge:

    “Clean me”.

    The Men Of The Left:

    Not so many years ago, in my community, the BIG MAN of the left, a mover and shaker in the environmental movement, led rallies, chained himself to this and that, lunched with the BIG RIGHT to negotiate, win concessions for for the forest, the animals, other environmentalists revered him. Some of us. A very finely honed sense of justice this man had.

    Repeatedly raped his family friend’s barely 14 year old daughter while both families were camping together. The outcry from the LEFT was deafening. What a good man! He’d done so much for the community. How could we destroy his career, we who demanded he be brought to justice.

    Repeatedly raped his family friend’s barely 14 year old daughter.

    Just a few moments ago, I went to Chris Clarke’s website and gave my point of view about the seal hunt. I’m for it. But that’s not the point I want to make.

    In his response to me, Chris used nearly every topic I’ve posted on here, including clitoridectomy, to beat me over the head with.

    BIG LEFT. Oh yah.

  61. Mandos

    “Apart from the weirdly inappropriate and pretentious quote here, its hard to see what any of this means, much less what it has to do with Miss Faster’s point.”

    Twisty is saying (probably correctly) that men don’t look at women in the same way that they look at themselves. I’m suggesting that this might actually be a trivial statement if no one looks at other people the way they look at themselves. I’m also saying that this may necessarily be so, because, intuitively at least, the act of convincing oneself that one exists is fundamentally different from the act of convincing oneself that others exist. Thus, I believe the quote was relevant, but perhaps it has generated a misunderstanding.

    And I’d further suggest that the act of convincing oneself that others “exist” is more fundamentally difficult the greater the obvious difference between oneself and the other.

    “Do you understand the concept of human ego development? Do you understand the difference between a grasping infant, narcissist, or sociopath, and an adult human being capable of giving and recieving love?”

    Before we can even start to talk about these IMO badly-defined concepts (“ego”, “love”), we have to first characterize the mechanism that makes them even possible. How is love represented in cognition that makes it relevant to my above point? So I’m not sure where you’re going with this. I suspect part of the problem is that we have a very different background in our approach to questions of mind.

    “Do you understand that sprinkling famous quotes in odd places makes you appear less, not more, educated?”

    The point was to abbreviate a much larger explanation into a shorter sentence since a few people seem allergic to my verbosity. Obviously, it didn’t work.

  62. Mandos

    Testing, testing…

    I appear to be getting moderated very regularly. Of course, it could be that I’m being antispamulated and I’m just paranoid, but if it’s not just paranoia I’d rather be just told not to post here—I certainly won’t make any stupid “free speech” whinings since I understand the reason for moderated boards.

  63. Thalia Took

    Tony Patti in #30:

    Men generally refuse to imagine or empathize with the female viewpoint. They think they can, but it’s always this crazy kind of drag queen “If I were a woman I could do anything I want, la la la!” kind of fantasy where they get to keep all their male privileges and look fabulous, too.

    They all need to be raped, leered at, patronized, ignored, etc etc. They need to live the dream to feel the pain.

    Thank you, THANK YOU, for articulating exactly why my trannie sister-who-was-once-my-brother drives me totally fucking crazy sometimes. S/he just doesn’t get how being leered at is threatening. I love her dearly (and I can’t advocate the rape bit), but she’s still a tool a lot of the time.

  64. Galloise Blonde

    It’s not just you, Mandos. Everything I’ve posted has been modded too. I thought maybe it was my French ISP that made me look suspect. Is this likely?

  65. Mandos

    What thread did Chris Clarke write about the seal hunt? I can’t find it.

    GB: OK, it’s not just me. Sometimes these antispamulators are pretty annoying. Oh, well.

  66. Chris Clarke

    You’re having trouble finding it, Mandos, because until Pony commented, I didn’t write about the seal hunt. I posted a link to a company that made fun of environmentalists for opposing the seal hunt. And I didn’t “beat Pony over the head with every subject she’s posted about here.” She turned a blind eye to extreme cruelty because of the dictates of culture, and I mentioned clitoridectomy – along with torture of Iraqi prisoners and coyote leg hold traps.

    The thread is here. Make up your own minds. Personally, I think that to accuse me of being a misogynist because I consider the needless, heinous torture of animals for money to be closely related to other forms of cruelty, including violence toward women — let me be charitable and merely say that the statement is not well-argued.

  67. Betsy

    Well, I know plenty of women who go along with the patriarchy, whether it’s the one in the apartment downstairs who only wants my “friendship” so she can complain about her boyfriend, or the married women who benefit from spousal health insurance, or the dependent ding-a-lings I used to represent in divorce cases who didn’t want to pursue their property case if it would make their ex-husband angry.

    I’ve been fighting the fight, poor, tired, and forgotten, and my status sinks lower the older I get.

    I see women every stinking day who have benefits I would like to have (courtesy of their willingness to hook into the patriarchal system) but that I can’t get because I refuse to give in and yoke myself to a man. And they can all go straight to hell as far as I am concerned.

  68. txfeminist

    I was reading the Amnesty International USA web site yesterday on Abuse of Women in Custody, and it sounded frighteningly familiar to your comments about Libya….for female prisoners. Check it out.

    “In four states, statutes allow for a woman inmate to be held criminally liable for engaging in sexual conduct. Arizona, California, Delaware and Nevada. Arizona does not consider the inmate’s lack of consent, so even an inmate who was raped could be charged under this law. In California, inmates may be penalized for oral sex or sodomy. In Delaware and Nevada, statutes call for punishment of the inmate if he or she is unable to prove rape.”

    http://www.amnestyusa.org/women/custody/keyfindings_legislation.html

  69. Kate

    Thanks to all of you who commented on my comments about the comments I left on a blog.

    hehe. There, study that sentence.

    I agree with and usually follow religiously what most of you had posted here about safety. I live a very private life in many ways.

    In other ways I have refused to allow the patriarchy to silence my voice and am aware that my words may be captured by the wrong person and be used against me.

    BUT, what caught me off guard was the simple request, “share your experiences and your views on rape”. Seems like an open invite to me and I read it also as a way to bring my experience the light of day, to declare that I will not withhold or shirk from the truth. Or to display shame.

    But, what I didn’t expect was the extremity of hatred that spewed forth. I was caught unawares. You know, we can get caught unawares, us women. We get sucked in and oftentimes, it is a woman who is doing serves as the lure to catch the bait.

    That is what disgusted and surprised and angered me most.

    Yes and indeed, I know all too well how the ‘left’ traditionally has no desire to delve too deep into ‘women’s issues’. All too well I know also the amount of women who sit on the left, most of them upper middle white women, who play deaf to the struggles of other women who don’t live enlightened and priviledged lives like theirs.

    And yes, Betsy, I agree with you, I agree with you. And I refuse to marry and I am also self employed and I am sick and sick and sick and tired of my life experience being compared to women who have co-opted their lives to the patriarchy so they can live bigtime and turn their noses up at those of us who live true (because in deep in their hearts they know they are sell-outs and have no voice and they envy what they see as our ‘freedom’). But they won’t step over the line, instead they nurture the patriarchy. Makes me so mad.

    And Hattie, thanks for the quote, yes it is true we must be watchful of where we open ourselves, but we must also not blame ourselves if we are caught unawars like I was. The system is fucked up not me.

  70. Sophist

    If you are a man, and you don’t rape women, well, goody for you, but if you email me with some inane vituperation about how your personal noble restraint invalidates Brownmiller’s statement, you will only embarrass yourself. No matter what kind of man you are, you benefit in a thousand different ways from the violent sexualization of women’s subordination.

    Would it be vituperative to point out that passivlely and unknowingly benefitting from the “violent sexualization of women’s subordination” is different than engaging in “a conscious process by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.” Ignorance is bad, but not so bad as outright malevolence.

    You do this by demonizing feminists, by renting women for lap dances, by letting rapists off the hook in court, by buying cheap crap Victoria’s Secret thongs for your woman, by congratulating your girlfriend on her boob job, by ignoring mass rapes in Rwanda, by passing along the URL to Paris Hilton’s fuck video, by ogling that girl at the bus stop, by letting your mom do your laundry, by “giving away” a bride, by voting control of women’s uteruses over to godbag politicians, by pressuring your girlfriend to take it up the ass because all your friends are doin’ it, by having an opinion on the size of human labia, by arguing that stripping is “empowering,” by claiming you’re “hardwired” to be turned on by women who emulate the ludicrous fashion practices of strippers and centerfolds, by your inability to conceive of sex without dominance, and by refusing, despite 30 years of intelligent, educated women telling you otherwise, to concede that you don’t really, truly view women as human beings in anything approaching the same light in which you view yourself.

    Let’s see: no, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, depends on what your particular definition of “ogling” is, not anymore, never been in a position to have done that, nope, nuh-uh, larger than a grain of rice but smaller than a breadbox, nope, nope, nope, guilty as charged.

    But women, you might be inclined to argue, having heard somewhere that some men have started doing housework, have it so much better now.

    They are better off now, in the same way that being beaten nearly to death is better than being beaten all the way there.

    In South Dakota, rape victims who get pregnant aren’t thrown in an actual prison, but it’s hard to think of compulsory pregnancy in any other way. Unless you’re a guy.

    No, you just have to lack all empathy, a condition not restricted to any one sex.

  71. Twisty

    #70: “Would it be vituperative to point out that passivlely and unknowingly benefitting from the “violent sexualization of women’s subordination” is different than engaging in “a conscious process by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.” Ignorance is bad, but not so bad as outright malevolence.”

    You are not “passively and unknowingly benefitting”. Particularly since I have just explained it to you, as feminists have been explaining to men for the past 35 years: you are actively and knowingly benefitting. Ignorance? Give me a fucking break. If you can’t see the oppression, it’s because you don’t bloody want to see it, not because the Oppression Notification Bureau left you off their mailing list.

  72. Sophist

    You are not “passively and unknowingly benefitting”…you are actively and knowingly benefitting.

    Well, since I’m here posting about it about it would seem pretty obvious that the “unknowing” part doesn’t apply. As for the other half, I would be interested to know in what ways I am actively engaged in reaping the spoils of opression.

    If you can’t see the oppression, it’s because you don’t bloody want to see it, not because the Oppression Notification Bureau left you off their mailing list.

    I’m sure pretty much everyone can see the opression, even if they pretend not to. I just don’t believe that most men realize that male priviledge is supported by that opression, because most don’t seem to be aware of that privilage to begin with.

  73. Twisty

    “Privilege” is how we spell it on this blog, and you are right, men don’t see it. Got any other newsflashes?

  74. Chris Clarke

    I thought priviledge was what you sit on in the outhouse to take a dump.

  75. Sophist

    Yikes, two different misspellings of the same word in the same sentence. Spellcheck utilities have clearly destroyed what little spelling ability I once had.

    Got any other newsflashes?

    All I’m saying is that I think Brownmiller’s characterization of the situation is oversimplified. Certainly there is a distressingly large segment of the male population who fit her description, but I believe there is a second segment of men who are essentially getting a free ride off of the efforts of the first.

    p.s. As long as we’re addressing spelling errors, I’m pretty sure “Brownmiller” only has two L’s.

  76. Violet Socks

    All I’m saying is that I think Brownmiller’s characterization of the situation is oversimplified. Certainly there is a distressingly large segment of the male population who fit her description, but I believe there is a second segment of men who are essentially getting a free ride off of the efforts of the first.

    Good god, is there some kind of congenital incapacity for abstract thought that plagues everybody who can’t understand Brownmiller? I read “Against Our Will” when I was 13 years old and I got it: men-as-a-group, the capacity for rape as an attribute of maleness. The same way that the ability to bear children is an attribute of femaleness — women-as-a-group — regardless of the fact that many women are barren. Jesus Christ. It’s not rocket science.

  77. Michael Schroedinger

    I was born in the Black Hills of South Dakota, and I miss my home. In that regard this is terrifyingly sad. I would hope it doesn’t accrue more points to the mid-western backwater hick image which we are so often assimilated into. Trust me, some of us are embarrassed and unable to move. This isn’t the first or the last time I’ve heard my home compared unfavorably to a desolate nowhere. Please be considerate, as there are people everywhere who are evil so there are those among them who do good. There are many great lybian’s and many great south dakotans, unfortunately for us a majority of wrong may in a democracy disagree with a minority of good. I’m sorry on the behalf of the land, which is innocent and golden.

    Love,
    Mike

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    [...] also Rene’s illuminating comment from yesterday’s post; she actually saw this interview on TV, whereas I only read the [...]

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