By way of dipping a trepidational toe back into the murky pool of patriarchy blaming, I’ve been meaning for a couple of days to post this link to Sassy Pants’ survey on sexual violence. She says a lot of you guys participated, so go see what thou hast wrought.
We’ve all been harrassed. What I want to know is, who among us hasn’t been forced or shamed or guilted or brainwashed into fucking someone we really didn’t want to fuck? Does such a woman exist? Are you that girl? Gimme a holler.
I’m that girl. However, as a teenager, I kneed several crotches, delivered one black eye, and broke the nose of the captain of the first XV. Thank God somebody taught me how to say ‘No’ the non-verbal way, because they sure don’t listen otherwise.
I was going to say “me too”–thinking of the guy in college who kept nagging and hassling me until I finally, literally, lay back and said “okay, fine, go ahead,” which made him realize what an ass he was being. He didn’t fuck me, but he acted like an asshole the rest of the year because, natch, I was such a bitch to him, poor boy.
But just as I was writing, “I’m that girl too,” I remembered the first guy who ever put his dick in my vagina. He didn’t exactly nag me into it, but he did turn out to be the kind of bullshit artist who has an eye for girls who are ready to lose their virginity, dates ‘em, convinces ‘em he’s safe, gets to be The First, and then promptly dumps them and starts dating their little sisters. Not harassment per se, but not exactly honest dealing.
I, too, have never been coerced. I did almost break my hand when a man’s jaw happened to connect with my backhand after repeated requests for him to leave my breasts alone as he was, in fact, not my date. The best story is a blind date who took me to Chili’s and a movie (this was about 20 years ago so it was a pretty inexpensive date) and then got his panties in a twist because I wouldn’t invite him up to my place. Upon being told that I “owed him”, I took a twenty out of my purse, handed it to him and exited the vehicle stating, “We’re even.” The best part is that the idjit kept hanging out at the bar down the street from my house. He’d get up to go to the bathroom and I or one of my friends or even the bartender would hasten to inform his date of his proclivities, whereupon she usually left. When he finally figured it out, the bartender made him get on his knees and apologize to me in front of a Friday night crowd. Even indeed.
i totally don’t believe the numbers on sexual harassment, unwanted physical touching, and verbal abuse. way too low.
i’m that girl. the really nerdy one, who said no 8 billion times — so often that the friend who introduced me to the love of my life also warned him that i was “frigid.” [what are friends for?] i just kind of like my bodily integrity.
I’ve never been coerced or given in under pressure, either, but I’ve also never had anyone try to coerce or pressure me. Part of it is luck, I think, but there’s also always been something different about me and how men see me. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I’ve been hit on (I’m 30), and every boyfriend I’ve had (there haven’t been that many) was one I went after. In fact, thinking back to my early sexual experiences, I was probably the one doing the pressuring.
This used to bother me when I was younger. I used to think there was something wrong with me because I wasn’t getting the male attention pretty much every other woman on earth seemed to be getting. How screwy is that? Thankfully I grew out of it.
I also spent the first 22 years of my life in single sex schools, so that may have had something to do with it too.
My experience is about the same as anty’s. I don’t get hit on, I don’t get flirted with, and I’ve made the first move with just about everyone I’ve slept with.
About all I can offer by way of possible explanation is my friends’ opinion that I give off some sort of “don’t fuck with me” vibe. This also explains why I’ve never been accosted on my rather-too-frequent midnight walks through terrible neighborhoods.
I am also one of the few women of my acquaintance who does not worry about being sexually assaulted, probably because men aren’t in the habit of wanting to sleep with me in general.
It’s sounds very like someone is saying they haven’t had any problems in this manner because they are strong and give off don’t fuck with me vibes.
I can gar an tee that’s not going to help one fucking iota if someone wants to show you who’s boss. It has NOTHNG whatever to do with sex.
I’m not That Girl, and I can’t think of anyone I know who is. However, I would like to echo Pony in the sentiment that the posters who have not been forced/shamed/etc. are lucky above all else. Just as the victim is not to blame, neither can one claim credit for escaping the de rigueur sexual violence of the patriarchy simply by virtue of personality or will.
I’m that girl, also. I’ve only slept with one-and-a-half people, so it isn’t a huge sample size, and I’m not making any assumptions how long I’ll continue being that girl. I know I’m lucky, in the mean time.
I know women who’ve only slept with one man, and can fill in several boxes on Sassy’s survey. It’s not how many you’ve been with, but that fact that there are men on this earth with whom you’ve come in contact. I couldn’t begin to list all the various ways and number of times in 63 years, but only 5 (five) men as intercourse partners, have I been assulted.
It isn’t to do with number, or youth, or age, or how you dress, or if you are strong or weak, or have protectors (don’t get me started) or not.
You’re a female. Or you’re a child. You’re game.
They do it because they can.
If it hasn’t happend to you, the operative word is “yet”.
oh, i agree. i’ve been incredibly lucky. and so far, my daughter has been also. she is smart and careful and angry — but any medium-sized dude who wants to hurt her has a decent chance. it is scary being a mom.
It’s usually a relative, partner or husband. The random hit is, well not rare, but not the bulk of the stats.
Afterthought.
If anything should convince doubters that whether one homosexual ior not is NOT a choice, looking at the women who’ve been assaulted in so many ways over their lives but still choose males should. It’s hard wired.
You often hear stupid doctors STILL saying women forget the pain of childbirth to go on and have more. Blah blah blah. It’s not true of course, but if even the first part were, it would be women forget the pain of being heterosexual and go on to have more men.
That’s me too.
And I also have no love life and practically no sex life. And I hate it when feminists respond to accusations of man hating or assertions about what is not attractive to men with, “My bf/husband/lover/etc would beg to differ.”
I’m way too old to be a virgin, but at one point I just decided to wait til I really physically and emotionally wanted to have sex, and it hasn’t happened yet, but I’m afraid that it won’t because it’s too big a deal and I’m too nervous about it.
I tell my friends I’m a non-practicing believer in pre-marital sex…
Sometimes I wonder whether my phermones just aren’t broadcasting right or something.
It isn’t to do with number, or youth, or age, or how you dress, or if you are strong or weak, or have protectors (don’t get me started) or not.
This sounds sadly defeatistic to me, even if it’s true.
I don’t think you’re alone in that. Lots of women are virgins years past what somebody now dead and forgotten deemed normal. I bet everyone here could give you a different age and number of times. No normal.
But there are some things that can hamper one’s sex drive. Some medications for example. All the new so doctor-fave anti-depresssants, and WHO KNEW all the birth control pills.
Geez way to go guys and gals there in the pharmaceutical labs.
If you’re shy and don’t go out around people much, you really limit your chances of meeting someone who just hits. {She said to the computer.}
Well I’m so sorry Mandos. I’ll think about a way to reword it so’s not to pitch you into a downer. Deal?
Weighing in with Pony et al. I have my doubts about the numbers of people who suggest great personal triumphs over the most unpalatable habits of the patriarchy.
Also, to Dalaimama, I LOVE your tale of patriarchal resistance at the bar with your friends; it reminds me a great deal of a “prick-away” stunt a girlfriend and I used pull on a real skank who was coercive and aggressive with me. I’ll spare y’all (and myself) the detailed narrative of what, how, and why I crawled in with this A**H***, but when he showed his depicably prickly colors and found his was to TWO of my girlfriends/co-workers I continued our usual habit of going out for drinks after work. I’d even buy him drinks (Johnny Red on the Rocks!), but then when he was on the road going home (a trip that only had ONE route in a SMALL town) I called the cops and gave ‘em his license plate number and description of his car “weaving all over the road and in and out of traffic.” Bob had a lot of s’plainin’ to do when the uniformed patriarchs caught up with him! A few weeks later I had a friend call his office and leave a message for him to meet yet another woman who was on his “to do” list. We left him the phone number at our favorite watering hole, and had him calling 2-3 times. We nearly p’d our pants listening to the bartender shout, “Is there a Darlene here? Call for ‘Darlene’ from Bob! Darlene!” Our final act of awfulness came when he scammed with another girlfriend of mine to get us both in bed. I never spoke to her again, but the sister involved in the Darlene scam and I had a delightful time letting the air out of that f’ers tires before he left work one afternoon!
That wasn’t my point.
Could you elaborate then? I’m not a mind reader.
It wasn’t about making me sad. I think defeatism is a problematic state of mind to be in. Even if there’s a lot of evidence that one is going to be defeated, is it really a good idea to go around thinking that you can’t protect yourself somehow?
There are so many ways I could answer you Mandos, but at midnight on Sunday night, I’ll just direct you to the FAQ. This is not Feminism 101. The answer to your preposterous implications lie in your overdue feminist education.
Uh, I read the FAQ a long time ago. I’m not seeing my preposterous implications. I don’t see how defeatism vs nondefeatism is covered by Twisty’s FAQ. I’ve been reading Twisty for many months now and haven’t so far seen how some position on this issue is simply assumed by anything she, at least, writes.
Mandos, Mandos, Mandos. Getting hurt is not the same as getting defeated.
If the goal is avoiding getting hurt, then getting hurt is being defeated. Twisty is clearly asking in this thread if there are any women who’ve avoided getting hurt in a particular way. Some people have claimed that they have. Other people have claimed that if they did, they just got lucky, and their own personal attributes have contributed nothing to the likelihood of getting hurt.
Sure, i could be that girl. No guy i’ve ever dated has made me do things i didn’t want to do. But that’s mostly because i a) make sure to date extremely wimpy guys who are very grateful for everything i deign to do, b) get really pissed if they ask in a not-nice way, and walk out (that’s happened more than once), and c) am too busy worrying about the fact that i was probably, all things considered, fucked seven different ways from sunday as a small kid to really get around much.
i spent high school punching and kicking boys to make sure they knew who was boss. They did. They stayed the hell away from me. That’s one way to avoid getting hurt.
But man, it really makes me mad that other women’ve dealt with this. i guess everyone wishes once in a while that it was just her, because it’s too upsetting that it’s everyone. And i agree with the sentiment that those stats seem low.
I agree with Pony; in fact, I’m thanking Pony for her response because I had an instant, stomach-churning reaction to reading the statements implying that some sort of “don’t fuck with me” vibe is all one needs to avoid being assaulted.
For me, that’s just a little too close to suggesting that if only the ten-year-old had been more defiant, the pediatrician wouldn’t have given her that “breast exam.” Or if the 98-pound college freshman had been a little tougher, the guy who forced his way into her room wouldn’t have harmed her.
And that’s just *my* personal experience. I’m sure half the women who comment here have similar stories. The rest are, as some have pointed out, lucky.
I’m also a non-practicing believer in pre-marital sex. I like that phrase and will adopt it :)
No, I haven’t been coerced. I think that my size (over 6ft, muscly) goes some way to transforming the sort of intimidation I receive - it’s much more that I’m ugly, fat, disgusting, a man etc. It’s not obvious sexual violence, but I think it is related. My friends get wolf-whisted - I get verbal abuse. They are two sides of the male gaze coin - fuckable or thumpable.
I am that woman. I don’t know why. When I was younger I was extremely shy and introverted and was never really around anyone besides my family. By the time I was 14 I was 5’9â€, taller than just about anyone else in my social circle. I was also an athlete during my teen years. When I hit my 20’s I started putting on weight. Now, I’m one of those invisible overweight people. I’m pretty much ignored. I’m also a very straight forward person. Tell me what you want and I’ll tell you if it’s something I want. Most of my childhood I had to watch my mother and father play mind games with one another, and others, and now I just don’t put up with it.
I know I’m lucky. Most of my friends who’ve been raped or assaulted were under sixteen at the time; it was brothers or uncles or dad’s best friend or their best friend’s big brother. No amount of strategy or nose-punching is going to help you sometimes.
mandos, it’s not defeatist — it’s a just statement of the fact that women who haven’t been raped didn’t avoid getting raped, they just happened to avoid men who rape.
Not disagreeing with the statement that those who haven’t been harassed/abused are lucky, but there also is something to be said for attitude. I say this as someone who, because of early experiences too similar to others detailed here to go into, walked around for years with “victim” stamped on her forehead. This sign attracted predators who left my less-vulnerable sisters alone. I didn’t even know I was wearing it for a long time. Once I got it, I worked for years to get the sign surgically removed, and now those guys don’t bother me so much–or if they do, they get the picture fairly quickly. That’s not to say I’m “safe”–just that day-to-day life is a bit easier. Now I work to help other women remove their signs as well. It’s not a matter of blaming the victim, but of teaching her that it’s not her fault and she doesn’t have to take this garbage just because some idiot (or many of them) once used her as a receptacle for his entitlement and rage. The way I usually express it is, “If you’re bleeding in the water, the sharks will find you.” The sharks are out there, and they may find you anyway, of course.
While being raped or viciously coerced (which in my book is the same as rape and assault) are horrible and all too common, they do not represent the kinds of coercion and pressuring that I suspect is common in an enormous percentage of encounters. Don’t read me as saying that rape and assault are minimal! Oh no! I talking about something entirely different here, that’s all. What strikes me in the commentaries from people who say they’re “that girl” is that few if any make an accounting for the head trippy stuff that lands you on your back, panties drawn, and legs apart. What? Are there no women here whose up-bringing - the bit about being raised to be a wife and mother and other myths of the patriarchy - didn’t leave them unprepared for proper prick management? There’s no one here who has tolerated sophomoric sexual behaviors from a boyfriend or uncomfortable positions with a spouse or SO? Gimme a break. The tolerance (mostly silent) that most women have for sexual misconduct or discomfort at the hands of their male intimates is one of those corrosive habits that works at both the individual and collective level. If it isn’t vicious or violent, who would tell or allow themselves to believe that it was out of the ordinary? Example: It wasn’t until my girlfriend “L” was divorced that I learned about her husband waking up with a hard-on in the middle of the night, and just walking around to her side of the bed with his dick aimed at her mouth. She lived for years like that! But of course she never told. I think there are a lot of people who don’t tell (note the generally agreed upon low stats sited here) because they don’t often give voice to the non-normative (or maybe in their lives it is the norm) behaviors at play in their lives…which is just how the patriarchy likes it. Voice is just as important, more so perhaps, than any “don’t fuck with me” aura. And fighting back can start even when some filthy fuckers hands are off your body. Check this out:
http://www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2004/05/31/Commencement2004/Rape-List.Serving.The.Brown.Community.Since.1991-726507.shtml?norewrite200604100840&sourcedomain=www.browndailyherald.com
Sigh. I see a huge tendency here to blame oneself: I didn’t look tough enough, I looked too tough, I’m tall and big boned, I’m small and shy…. I prescribe a continuous dose of Catherine MacKinnon until you get it: YOU. WE. Are not to blame.
If you’re not bleeding in the water, the sharks may take that as test.
Agreed, Pony. For those of us who were raised (tacitly or explicitly) to excuse, dismiss, tolerate, or accept responsibility for the foul and inappropriate misdeeds of the patriarchy, there is an awful trend of self-blaming…even in this place…designed expressly for blaming the proper entity.
Rape lists: at one time some neighbourhoods in the drag fought back by taking photos of cars and license plates. Traffic, all of it, just moved to other neighbourhoods. Tidbit: The fav place for slightly upscale street hookers in my town was around the gov buildings. Noon was like a mall on Boxing Day.
Have you seen this? I now think I love technology:
http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/
Subway pervert exposed by cellphone photo
Possibly as an excuse to use the catchy headline “Onan the Vegetarian,” the April 10 issue of New York magazine has a profile of raw-food enthusiast and subway flasher Dan Hoyt. (Be warned that the opening paragraphs of the piece describe a flashing incident and have a high yuck factor.) Hoyt was convicted of public lewdness on Feb. 27, after one of his flashing victims, Thao Nguyen, snapped his photo using her camera phone, took it to the police and then posted it on Laundromatic. The image wound up on the cover of the New York Post, and got Hoyt arrested. (He hasn’t been sentenced yet, but he expects to get two years’ probation.)
Hoyt seems to have learned approximately nothing from the experience; he’s quoted in the profile saying that some women find being flashed arousing, and is angry that Nguyen took his picture and posted it. If Nguyen ever met him in person, he figures, “she’d probably want to go out with me.”
Silver lining: Nguyen’s ordeal inspired Broadsheet fave Holla Back NYC, which invites people who have been flashed or catcalled to turn the tables on their harassers by posting their photos online. “She’s our princess,” Holla Back cofounder Lauren Speers says. And Nguyen’s feisty attitude makes our day. As she told New York mag, “He picked the wrong person to do this to.”
Like some others here, I avoided victimization at a vulnearable age in large part, I think, because I was morbidly shy. I’m still an introvert today, but I’m 6′2″ as well, and I’ve learned there are certain things you can do, as Dr. Sue said, to at least minimize your chances of being preyed upon. (And yes, this has been very well attested in scientific research.) Contra Pony, I don’t believe this has anything to do with blaming those who have been victimized. Its a matter of learning things you weren’t aware of before for better taking care of yourself.
(One tip I adopted from a former boss: never, ever be alone in a car with a man you’re not related to, no matter how well you think you know him.)
“If you’re not bleeding in the water, the sharks may take that as test.”
Point taken, Pony. Again, this isn’t about blaming anyone but the perp, though. It’s simply that women who have been treated like dishrags learn to treat ourselves the same way, and not to notice or object when others do so. Ridding ourselves of that tendency does have the effect of eliminating a certain type of unwanted attention. Not all, not all the time, and not our fault when it does happen.
Re: hollaback
Thanks much, Pony. LOL! I love Nguyen! It’s nice to see that these here new-fangled cell-u-lar telephones serve a greater purpose beyond distracting already incompetant drivers from the less important tasks of using proper signals and stopping at red lights. Blaming away the morning here, and lovin’ it!
Hm. I was going to say that I was that girl, but then I remembered riding the bus in middle school and being continually harassed (along with the other girls) by the more numerous boys. They’d climb into our seats, make very lewd comments, snap our bras, etc.
Anything more recent than that I think I must have blocked out.
Aside from traveling through Spain, France, and Italy, but the catcalls didn’t bother me too much.
Dave Chapelle had this sketch, a commercial for a product called “Wrap It Up.” It looked like a red Exit sign, but it said “WRAP IT UP” and the joke was, you turn it on whenever someone is droning on a little too long—the judge at your arraignmnent, the first date telling you the story of her life, etc, and say, “it’s time to Wrap It Up!” Hardy har. Anyhow, the final scene shows Chapelle pounding away at this woman, who looks totally bored. Finally she whips out the Wrap It Up sign.
You see where I’m going with this? You gals who say you’ve never been coerced—and I’m not disbelieving you, I’m just trying to be clear—you’ve never just laid there and taken it, out of some sense of wifely obligation, when you’d rather be, say, cleaning the hair out of the bathroom drain? Has he never kept at it, saying “Just a minute! Just a minute!”even when you’ve expressed to him that you’ve had enough? That sort of thing?
I don’t know how rare I am, but no, I’ve missed out on that experience. (And if a man had kept up this way, it really would’ve pissed me off.)
Yes, Twisty, m’dear! That is EXACTLY the sort of thing I mean! And the FACT that there is such an alarming degree of silence relative to this sort of thing is where I think MORE attention ought to be focused. There are lots of scholars and activists (though perhaps not nearly enough) who respond to the painfully obvious foul practices of the patriarchy, but sadly little attention is given to the collective mindset that seems pervasive even amid so-called feminists. If one more woman, “feminist” or otherwise says to me something to the effect of, “Oh, he’s a guy, what do you expect?” or “That’s just the way men are…” I am literally going to barf upon the speakers shoes or sock ‘em right in the kisser! What I wish I could expect is zero tolerance for “the way men are,” but the system of tolerance has been in place for so long I really have my doubts about the possibility of its total collapse…though I refuse to give up trying. Wouldn’t it be delightful if the “good” wives everywhere began turning on the “WRAP IT UP” signs and coming up with more and consistent other signs of zero tolerance for accepting what clearly ought to be unacceptable?
Yes to Annie and yes to Twisty. It’s not something I am proud to say, and it’s something that needs to change in my life. I have indeed participated in positions and other sexual behavior with my spouse that does nothing for me, even things that are painful or uncomfortable - it’s all about him. Totally all about him. And the part about preferring to clean hair out of the bathroom drain? True. Oh so true on many occasions.
I’m learning, though, and I’m slowly changing into the person I want to be - and deserve to be.
Thank you, Twisty, for this forum. I have learned so much from you and from your commenters. It’s not that my eyes weren’t open to the problems… it’s more that I was wearing blinders on purpose - for the sake of what? The relationship? Such bullshit. I do blame myself in part for being the submissive wife, for tolerating things that I knew I didn’t want to tolerate… but I also blame the patriarchy.
Incidentally, before I turn the “WRAP IT UP” sign upon my own dear self, I want to pass on the details of an excellent blaming essay from the scholarly realm. It treats “survivor discourse” and can be accessed easily (if you are a student or faculty member at a college or university) through JSTOR. I think that it makes a good companion piece to Sassy’s survey. I have used the article in my own work.
Alcoff, Linda; Laura Gray. “Survivor Discourse: Transgression of Recuperation?†Signs, Vol. 18, No. 2. 1993, 260-290
I seriously doubt anyone could be more take charge looking and acting than me Dr. Sue. And it hasn’t helped one bit. I grew up in a tough town, I’m not nice mouthed most of the time, I don’t turn my gaze away, and I’ve paid for it in loneliness.
So I think I read someone inadvertently saying just what’s going on: It didn’t bother me.
Oh yeah?
Who is that girl? Was it luck or canny defense? The last time I ventured into heterosexuality I remember thinking, Well, this is the last time I do this, but you know I let him finish, even though for me, we were having bad sex, or bored sex on my part. Definitely a wrap it up experience.
Regarding sexual violence and in the discussion above, how a woman has avoided it, or not avoided it? I enjoyed the very long posting of Barbara Ehrenreich’s essay on breast cancer by—Pony? antiprincess? Forgive me for not remembering who.
So I will be equally long or presumptuous and post a poem by Irena Klepfisz, holocaust survivor, lesbian, Jewish progressive—human should be the word that encompasses all. My copy I took from an anthology entitled Against Forgetting, edited by Carolyn Forche. I used to use it for a class I taught in prison, and so I have it in digital form. The women I taught really loved this poem, it spoke to the complex web of events and reasons of how they wound up in a Federal prison.
I also recommend Alice Sebold’s book, Lucky, for a teasing out of the complicated threads of fate, control and luck, regarding her rape. She was told she was lucky she was not murdered by her rapist. Anyway, the poem. I should say also that bashert means predestination, or fate, although Klepfisz expands the meaning.
Bashert (by Irena Klepfisz)
These words are dedicated to those who died
These words are dedicated to those who died
because they had no love and felt alone in the world
because they were afraid to be alone and tried to stick it out
because they could not ask
because they were shunned
because they were sick and their bodies could not resist the disease
because they played it safe
because they had no connections
because they had no faith
because they felt they did not belong and wanted to die
These words are dedicated to those who died
because they were loners and liked it
because they acquired friends and drew others to them
because they took risks
because they were stubborn and refused to give up
because they asked for too much
These words are dedicated to those who died
because a card was lost and a number was skipped
because a bed was denied
because a place was filled and no other place was left
These words are dedicated to those who died
because someone did not follow through
because someone was overworked and forgot
because someone left everything to God
because someone was late
because someone did not arrive at all
because someone told them to wait and they just couldn’t any longer
These words are dedicated to those who died
because death is a punishment
because death is a reward
because death is the final rest
because death is eternal rage
These words are dedicated to those who died
Bashert
These words are dedicated to those who survived
These words are dedicated to those who survived
because their second grade teacher gave them books
because they did not draw attention to themselves and got lost in the shuffle
because they knew someone who knew someone else who could
help them and bumped them into a corner on a Thursday
afternoon
because they played it safe
because they were lucky
These words are dedicated to those who survived
because they knew how to cut corners
because they drew attention to themselves and always got picked
because they took risks
because they had no principles and were hard
These words are dedicated to those who survived
because they refused to give up and defied statistics
because they had faith and trusted in God
because they expected the worst and were always prepared
because they were angry
because they could ask
because they mooched off others and saved their strength
because they endured humiliation
because they turned the other cheek
because they looked the other way
These words are dedicated to those who survived
because life is a wilderness and they were savage
because life is an awakening and they were alert
because life is a flowering and they blossomed
because life is a struggle and they struggled
because life is a gift and they were free to accept it
These words are dedicated to those who survived.
Bashert
Yours in sisterhood, etc.
B. Dagger Lee
Pony: Loneliness is often the price you pay for not playing the rules laid out for us. And while I personally think it beats the alternative, I understand what you’re saying, and am very sorry. It ISN’T fair.
Pony (#13):” If anything should convince doubters that whether one homosexual ior not is NOT a choice, looking at the women who’ve been assaulted in so many ways over their lives but still choose males should. It’s hard wired.”
How then to explain my choice NOT to associate with men, because of their reprehensible, disgusting behavior–and to then go on to have incredible, passionate, and satisfying intimate relationships with women? And if you think this is off topic, let me just ask who it serves for women to believe that our sexual preference is innate, that we can’t choose to reject exploitive relationships in favor of intimacy and equality? “Well, yeah, men are dicks, but what can I say? I’m just not attracted to women.”
This entire blog as well as many others is all about the reasons why we’re taught not to question assumptions like that–because when we believe “we’re born that way” and there’s no alternative, we have no choice but to keep trying to find the “exceptional man”–or to deny the need/desire many of us feel for an intimate connection with another person. This keeps our energies and attention focused on men.
I blame the patriarchy.
“Lucky” is also a book that should be read by every woman… though I didn’t care so much for the novel she followed it with.
Annie’s article:
http://www.alcoff.com/content/survdis.html
Incidentally, before I turn the “WRAP IT UP†sign upon my own dear self, I want to pass on the details of an excellent blaming essay from the scholarly realm. It treats “survivor discourse†and can be accessed easily (if you are a student or faculty member at a college or university) through JSTOR. I think that it makes a good companion piece to Sassy’s survey. I have used the article in my own work.
Alcoff, Linda; Laura Gray. “Survivor Discourse: Transgression of Recuperation?†Signs, Vol. 18, No. 2. 1993, 260-290
I don’t it’s possible to choose whether one is homosexual or heterosexual. It is possible to choose not to have disgusting relationships, with homo or hetero assholes.
I’ve never been coerced into sexual activity either. I have had casual sex because I was too unsophisticated to know how to avoid it gracefully, and in these circumstances, all of which occurred when I was in my late teens and early twenties, I was at the same time curious and feeling like it didn’t really matter to me whether I had sex or not, when it came right down to it. So each of these times, ultimately, I figured — if you’ll forgive the pun — “Oh, what the fuck?” However, I have also successfully said “no” when I meant “no.” I have successfully defended myself against rape using both my physical strength and my wits, and I have ignored and/or openly sneered at plenty of accusations of “frigidity” and being a “tease.”
So yeah, I think I’m that girl. I haven’t been shamed or guilted or brainwashed. I also haven’t really cared that much about sex, one way or another, in my life. I mean, it was far, far harder for me to give up cigarettes than it has ever been for me to go without sex for any period of time. I think that indifference might have something to do with it, but I’m really not sure what.
Maybe the ability for others to wound us sexually depends at least in part on how strongly we identify ourselves via our sexuality. I don’t know.
Arg… have just been reminded of something in a disability magazine about sexual surrogates:
http://www.disabilitynow.org.uk/timetotalksex/timetotalksex_feat1.htm
http://www.disabilitynow.org.uk/timetotalksex/survey_002.htm
Yeah, social and physical barriers to your sex life suck, should be considered along with lots of other things in social model of disability etc. But somehow all these guys think they have a right to sex (that’s an actual quote from the end of one of the articles “sex is a right”). There are women mentioned in both of those, but the numbers difference and the way they are quoted seem to say quite different things to the men.
I give up. If after all this, Sara can say that. For today; I give up. Someone more articulate and focussed will have to carry on.
Mandos, there’s nothing defeatist about Constant Vigilance, and knowing that my luck - and it IS luck - could run out some day, regardless of age, beauty, size, attitude, or height. See Granny Gets a Vibrator for a recent post on sexual assaults against older women. Some guys like an easy target, some like a challenge.
Twisty, you asked a nuanced question in the context of a survey about violence, which skewed your answers. The nuance is this: where is the thin line between coerced sex and sex that goes on a little too long for one’s taste. Just because I’m done doesn’t mean he’s done, and vice versa. I wouldn’t want my lover to get in, get off, get out, right? So if it takes him a little longer than me, that’s fine. But then there’s the line that gets crossed when it’s a continual coercive wifely-duty thing… the woman whose husband pointed his dick at her mouth in the middle of the night - jeebus - that just isn’t the kind of thing one wants to tell anyone else, so how many people tolerate this kind of behavior? How many men think it’s acceptable.
Pony, I hear you now. Just wanted you to know.
Ya know, as I sit here tied to this blog, knowing full well that I really MUST do some other things today, I am feeling all welled-up with emotional vacations, which I’d give to Twisty if she hadn’t sensibly taken a holiday herself. It is, in large part, the fact of this conversation that is so entirely disturbing. It sucks that this crap is even a topic of conversation. We might all do well to grab our cameras, head off to a new or favorite chow shop, check out the poop-pots, and schlep back home to the comfort of our domesticated critters. (Katie, my 5 month old Sheltie/Jack Russell/??? mix, is more theraputic than any tasting menu from Jean Georges, and much less expensive.) Yes, Twisty, do lets shun the patriarchy. Methinks I have a ceviche craving coming on…and a Tito’s handmade gimlet with keylimes will do nicely later tonight when I indulge in my own blaming holiday.
Radfemlezzie, that just suggests you’re bi, like me. At a gut level, I don’t actually understand why everyone isn’t — not just because it makes for more options and broader adventures, but because how can anybody not get hot for certain people of any sex? — but I’ll take their word for it, as I would for anyone’s talk about their personal subjective experience. And being bored in bed is an equal-opportunity job, though it’s certainly warped statistically by the load placed on our sense of fair play. Just sayin’. (And you get shit from all directions for being bi; just sayin’ that too.)
Mandos, what I was after was percisely not applying “defeat” so narrowly, because it doesn’t parse that way, and because what we’re talking about is more like “This is a likelihood, and while there are things you can do to shave the odds, it’s so common that it’s probably not about anything you did or could prevent.” It’s what good old consciousness-raising has in common with rock-climbing lessons, especially the one about what to do if you get stuck on a ledge somewhere.
(Probably won’t happen in SW La., V’Liz.)
Radfemlezzie:
You tell us that your sexuality is a choice. Fair enough. But for many people, sexual preference is not a choice. If we follow the slippery slope of your argument, then those vile christian ex-gay movements are RIGHT: if you can choose to be an ex-heterosexual, then someone could also be an ex-homosexual. Do we really want to align ourselves with that point of view? Do you really believe that? I don’t.
However, like many women, I *have* questioned my assumptions regarding my heterosexuality, dated a woman, and found that I prefer men. Every time I get my heart broken by a man, I think: hm, maybe now I should try dating women again. But you know what? Women break each other’s hearts. They cheat on each other. Hell, some of them even beat on each other. I’m not convinced that women are inherently better partners than men. We’re all fucked up to some degree by the patriarchy, men and women alike, and this can factor into gay as well as straight relationships. Combine that with my sexual preference for sex with men, and homosexuality doesn’t work for me. Please don’t assume that I’m just a tool of the patriarchy, fucking boys because Big Daddy says that’s what girls do.
It is faulty for you to assume everyone who lives a hetero lifestyle is simply blind to the alternative and has never even considered the possibility of partnering with women instead of men.
Pony: I’m hearing you.
I’m a thoroughly hetero person who doesn’t at present feel the need for any sexual or romantic nonsense with a man; most of my emotional needs are met through a very close relationship with my best female friend. Lucky me.
I haven’t learned the academic’s distance with these things. Any. Things.
Wow the river’s open. Bye.
I have never been coerced or forced. I was taught from a very young age that my body is mine, to do with what I want; no one else has a right to it. I do believe that does make a difference in how a young woman views her relationships with men and with herself. My first boyfriend tried to rape me when I was 14. Instead of being frightened and ashamed, I was enraged. I fought him off, and told him that if he didn’t take me home immediately, I’d tell everyone who’d listen, and have him shot (a lot of the people in my family are in law enforcement; we’re pretty comfortable with guns). He drove me home without another word. Could he have overpowered me if he’d really wanted to? Yes, absolutely, but I think my attitude made him think I would be too much trouble for him in the long run. I was taught to be righteously angry at the very idea of someone else controlling my body. Both my mother and my father taught me this.
When I say yes to a man, I say it wholeheartedly; when I say no, I accept no counterarguments. I’ve been called a bitch more times than I can count, and who cares? Obviously if a guy is calling me a bitch because I won’t let him into my pants, that’s all he wanted from me in the first place, and he can go have intercourse with himself at his earliest convenience.
“Counterarguments”???
Are you for real. Jahzus, people, I mean really.
What passes for control in terms of women’s right to bodily sovereignty (as evidenced by the inordinate number of “I’m That Girl” posts in this thread) just completely blows my fucking mind.
How down-right liberating it must feel for all of you to know how not to get yourself raped. How grand!
Briefly returning from my self-imposed (and not a moment too soon) “WRAP IT UP” action and blaming session. I must wave a “Here! Here!” flag over by Puffin’s last statement…even if I tend to think that the heart of Twisty’s inquiry really wasn’t focused upon rape and threats of rape so much as the putrid underpinnings of patriarchy, the more usually tacit or implicit coercions that lead a woman to think it is an act of love or kindness when she chooses to endure what she’d prefer to “Wrap Up.” And the coercion isn’t limited to actual sex, by the by. I include in this genre of patriarchally-induced sex coma, the decisions to paint one’s face when you’d rather go bare…the donning of pantyhose (a contraption assuredly created to induce suffering)in order to mask varicose veins or slip one’s dainty little tootsies into some pair of cockroach killing stiletto’s that would be better used upon the crotch of some patriarch who couldn’t take “no” for an answer…that sort of thing.
Yes, Puffin, it is a bit frightening, though, to think that walking among us are those who believe that imbibing or posessing some kind of feminist V-8 is like a hedge of protection against would-be perpetrators. UGH!!!!!!
puffin — the question here was not rape. it was agreeing to sex under coersion — a more nuanced question, having more to do with giving into pressure in a relationship — saying yes when one wants to say no.
i can’t see that a single person here believes we have the key to preventing rape, or harassment, or groping, or all the other crap. it is easy enough to see why and how women might be coerced, and i’m sure it has happened to plenty of people. the general environment is not at all liberating — all i’m saying is that i’m lucky enough to have avoided this particular indigity.
pantyhose, i have given into — for work and funerals — but not stilettos. no way, no how, never.
Sex under coersion is rape.
I’m probably treading on the most dangerous possible ground here, but I think that coecion is being used in two different senses. If, for instance, my parents guilt-trip me into doing something, that’s a rather different form of coercion than them, say, threatening to deny me basic sustenance (assuming I were still living with them and had no other choices). I’ve a feeling that people are distinguishing between the former and the latter.
Whether that’s a valid distinction in this context is another matter.
I dunno, Kathy, while I think we are more or less shooting from the same blind, I can’t help seeing how/why the conversation has drifted in the direction Puffin has commented upon. There are some here who do seem to be suggesting that self-conscious attitudes, practices, and up-bringing have allowed them at least some degree of immunization from coersion of various kinds. It’s hard not to get one’s back up in response, ya know? Still, I think where I have been aiming in my own too many cents posts has been more akin to what you say about giving-in to forms of coersion for the sake of some relationship. I suspect that loads of folk endure, tolerate, mask their ambivalence etc. because the structures and discourses of patriarchy (the networks of power and games of truth)are fairly prohibitive. A statement to one’s male intimate like, “Stop that. I don’t like it.” or the decision to sleep in one’s own bed in one’s own room because one prefers to sleep alone…no such speech acts of rhetorical actions go unnoticed or unpunished by the patriarchy. Sheer guilt may play a role in perpetuating very subtle-yet-obvious forms of coersion. I wonder how many women would really prefer to maintain their own bedrooms or even residences even when married…? I wonder how many endure non-aggressive-but-still-unpleasant sexual or sex-related encounters as a kind of peace-keeping mechanism? Or as a result of some inner guilt-o-meter that has them convinced that there are certain thinkgs a woman must simply tolerate or chalk up to some irritatingly acceptible usualness of male behavior…?
Could he have overpowered me if he’d really wanted to? Yes, absolutely, but I think my attitude made him think I would be too much trouble for him in the long run.
missginger has put it the way I wish I had (in order to avoid pissing people off). I didn’t mean that a “don’t fuck with me attitude” is somehow proof against assault — or that people who are assaulted were somehow to blame for not seeming “tough” enough. I understand that we are all potential victims, and given the number of women I know who have been victims, I’m grateful for whatever statistical fluke has thus far protected me.
At the same time, I would argue that all rapists are, at heart, massive cowards. They want to commit violent acts against women, but they don’t want there to be any real effort involved (because beating up a woman should be easy for manly men, of course), so they’re going to be looking for what they perceive as “easy” targets. As missginger puts it, if they think you’re going to be too much trouble, they’ll probably (not always) look elsewhere.
As it is, my own attitude toward sex and my body has always been extremely UNhealthy — for which I blame, of course, the patriarchy — but in a way that seems to discourage men from sleeping with me. Nobody with any sense wants to stick a hand (or a dick) into my particular brand of crazy, I guess.
if you say yes to your partner and secretly wish it wasn’t happening, it isn’t rape. icky, ugly, but not a crime. this really is a more nuanced question.
outside the sexual realm, i say yes when i don’t want to, all the damned time. i do things for friends and family and colleagues because it i think that is part of a larger social contract we have, to help each other out.
human life and human relations are messy, and the patriarchy makes them worse. we agree about that, right? i haven’t noticed that we are competing for feminist of the year, and maybe we all are better for being able to talk about our different perspectives.
I took the Sassy survey. At first I was creeped out by how many boxes I checked. Then I was relieved that there were a goodly number of revolting experiences I had not had. I was delighted to see so many commenters who saw themselves as a person who had not been oppressed to that degree by the patriarchy. It gives me hope that there are those who did not suffer the constant assault on their human dignity that was the norm for my cohort. I can’t be sure which was worse, when I thought I was the only one who suffered or when I realized how many others suffered. I blame vigorously and often.
annie — your post reminded me of an article i read a while back, about couples who do live in separate homes, because they get along better that way. if you haven’t seen it, here’s a link:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/29/HOG7HDEB7B1.DTL&hw=adair lara&sn=006&sc=844
Sex under coercion is obviously rape, sex under nagging is more difficult to peg. At the very least, it indicates both a sense of entitlement for himself, and a lack of respect for you; and we know from the stories of domestic violence and “date” rape victims that its very often an early sign of worse things to come.
In short, its the Patriarchy incarnate.
kathy a - that couple was on TV not long ago. I was also thinking about them while I was writing my post. Cool story…even if I am just as sure that no one (not even them thar SF marital innovators) goes unscathed in under the patriarchal economy.
kathy a, Don’t talk to me about nuance and then tell me that saying “yes” when you really want to say “no” ISN’T rape.
Don’t tell that to me, or to a woman like Linda Boreman, who said “Yes, yes, YES!!” over and over again in the movie DeepThroat while men stood off camera with guns and kept her pumped full of drugs. Don’t tell it to girls like Yoon Ahn, who by the age of 14 had been trafficked all over the U.S. and Canada, taught to scream, “Yes, yes, more!” when middle-aged business men bought, used, and abused her body. Don’t tell it to the millions of little girls whose fathers teach them that love means getting Dad off so they come to look forward to their own violation. Don’t tell that to the 21-year old college student at Aberystwyth University in Wales whose rapist was found not-guilty because he drugged her and in the UK, a drug-induced “yes” is consent.
Don’t use the word nuance and then go on to try to explain to me how rape and a “yes” under duress is all that fucking different. Don’t compare rape to your running an errand for you friend. And MOST IMPORTANTLY do NOT talk about the compromises that women must make, especially in terms of sex, as if it’s as simple as “she said yes but really meant no.” That’s an analysis that is wholly devoid of nuance and makes rape and coersion (things men do to women) things that women have to be responsible for.
cass, i agree. i was using coersion in the “nagging” sense — obviously, something like a gun to the head or a threat of harm is legal coersion, and a crime. but if you say yes and mean no, giving in to nagging or its equivalent, that is not a crime.
couldn’t agree more about date rape and domestic violence. DV is a huge topic in my house now, since a close relative recently escaped an abusive relationship, and it took a broken rib for her to leave. how someone could be choked and beaten and threatened and called vile names, and go back for more, is just beyond my emotional comprehension, although i know that isn’t so uncommon. she is out now, and her disgusting husband is facing 4 felonies.
i sincerely apologize for using the term coersion in an offhand way. my comments meant to address things like shame or guilt or nagging, that might cause a woman to agree to sex she really didn’t want.
my language was sloppy. coersion does imply threats or force, and my comments were meant for something different. i understand it is all on a scale, and do not mean to suggest that pressure is OK. but it is different from force or threats.
That’s what I thought. In some of our dialects, coersion is a superset of threats of physical (or even economic, which is a form of physical anyway) harm.
There has been a lead weight in my stomach since I read Sassy’s survey. The eloquent responses over there brought back some miserable memories, and the knowledge that so many others have suffered and continue to suffer is depressing and enraging.
I’ve also been depressed about what is happening here. Twisty asked a question–possibly with a great deal of irony, but some women took her question seriously and answered it by relating their own experiences. Now we’re all yelling at each other, and blaming each other. Smart, good women who are all on the same side.
This is not a plea to make nice. These differences need to be aired. Just an observation that there is a lot of hurting going on, and it has felt to me that we are all bleeding and bruised. I don’t care which of you “agrees” with me, I’m not fighting you, my sisters.
Wow, the response to those of use who haven’t been harassed or guilt-tripped into sex has been eye opening to me. I don’t have some super secret sauce that makes me immune or some feminist V-8 that gives me protection. I have my experiences and that’s it. My sister had her first sexual experience on a dare at a high school party at 15. On a dare!! I couldn’t believe it when she told me. I’m not immune to that kind of coersion I’ve just never experienced it myself. I’m also not blind to the fears that rape has instilled in me even if I’ve never been raped. Even though that’s not what the initial post was about. When I’m walking outside I’m constantly looking all around me. I don’t take for granted just because I’m tall and fat someone’s not going to try something. I just know no one ever has. I’ve also never been married and never plan to be. Last time I dated a guy I was 23 (about, oh 10 years ago) and I don’t get out much. So, within my limited experience I have never been coerced. Hm, I’m going to ask my sister about her experiences. She interacts with people on a personal and professional basis much more than I do.
I’m that girl, too. I assume it’s because the men I’m actually attracted to are few and far between, and my two biggest turn-offs are pushiness and insincerity. I’m told that I just sort of drip uninterestedness most of the time.
“how someone could be choked and beaten and called vile names, and go back for more, is just beyond my comprehension, although i know it isn’t so uncommon.”
Its understandable that this is beyond most people’s comprehension, and we could have a fascinating discussion on this sometime. For now, though, I’ll just say there’s lots of reasons why women make these choices, but none of them have to do with masochism. This was the predominant theory in the male-dominated field of psychology until very recently, and its only been overturned through the studies of feminist reseachers and those actually working with the victims themselves (hmmm… do you think they could have anything to contribute?). Aside from the disadvantage of being untrue, however, this old idea had an obvious ideological bent to it. One of the ways in which wife-beaters can seem a microcosm of the entire Patriarchy itself is that, in their own eyes, the woman is always to blame for whatever atrocities befall her… and of course, this applies in our society even more now for rape than for domestic violence. So, its no wonder so many of us have a special sensitivity around this…
And, excepting the most obvious point of reference (i.e. Le Patriarchy) I find it beyond comprehension that anyone still asks women why they stay. I mean, why should women have to make an accounting for bad patriarchal behavior. I remain digusted and befuddled by motive inquiries directed at those who have suffered at the hands of an abuser…Creepers!
Well, if these questions are asked of her in a judgemental or condemning way… no, that doesn’t do anyone any good. But I think society would be much better off around this issue if they understood more of how these situations look from the inside.
Sorry, Cass, and anyone else I may have inadvertantly irritated or offended today. As is obvious by my diarreah of the post condition, I am having my own little blaming fest here at home today. I’m just as pissed at the patriarchy as ever, but felt more like blabbing about it today. Peace to all.
When I was 13 there was a wave of sexual assaults in my school. There was a gang of boys two years older than I was that had been attacking my friends, and when one of them came for me - I fought back. Hard. I got a reputation for being a crazy bitch. I think it bought me some time.
I didn’t mention this in my first post, but I’ve also been told by friends that I give off a “fuck you” look. I thought it was interesting that several of the other women brought it up, and I mention it now because while I think this might explain why I rarely get hit on, I don’t think it explains why I’ve never been pressured into having sex. It IS a numbers game, though. Frequent flyers are more likely to die in a plane crash and things like that. This is not at all an argument for women staying locked away at home or to imply it’s ever OK for a man to exert any sort of pressure on a woman or any other such bullshit, but it makes sense to me that those of us who haven’t dated a lot (for whatever reason) just haven’t encountered some of the more nasty dating experiences. Or some of the better ones, for that matter. It goes both ways.
I also realize that all it takes is one date with one asshole. That’s why i said in my initial post that part of my own experience is due to luck. Whether or not I would’ve given in to the pressure in my teens or early 20s, I don’t know.
I should note that all of the above is about situations where women are 100% free to walk away. I am not talking about situations where there are guns or drugs or brainwashing. “Coercion” was the wrong word to use in my first post. I agree that that’s rape, and that’s not what I understood the question to be about, so I apologize for not being clear.
As for the WRAP IT UP sort of experience, I’ve never had that one either. There was a time in my life where I might’ve done that, but I was (again) lucky enough to just never end up in that situation. I’ve also always had a fairly high sex drive, so lack of interest hasn’t been a problem. But if that becomes a problem someday, I know I won’t be the WRAP IT UP woman. I’m comfortable with being alone, and any man I have to act for is not a man I want to be with.
And finally, on the issue of giving in in general by wearing make-up or heels or whatever else, guilty as charged. I am self-conscious, I don’t like my body, I sometimes ask rather than assert - even when I know I’m right! - because I know it makes it easer for people to hear what I’m saying. I give in every day, it’s impossible not to.
And now I’m wondering whether that’s what everyone wanted to hear. Does it make people feel better to know no one escapes?
It is totally sad, but I believe one reason that I was never sexually harassed was because too many of the then-teen boys around me keenly remembered having me kick the shit out of them when I first moved to the area at age ten. They knew that I was more trouble than I was worth.
I do remember backing out of situations where I didn’t feel right. Not that I was being coerced into anything in any of those situations - in fact, my companions took no for an answer without much further ado. I just wasn’t ready.
I think I’ve been lucky, but I also was given a sense of how to avoid tricky situations by my grandmother and mother. My parents were very much sex-positive, so I knew I could satisfy myself.
As for the “why do we talk about who has/hasn’t been attacked and why?”. I think the answer lies in knowing if there are things within our control that make such incursions less likely. Not that we should have to be a certain way, but because that is the reality of resisting patriarchy. Otherwise, the moralists sneak in and say “you didn’t follow that moral code blah blah”.
How many of you who replied in the negative or qualified your response are not white?
I’ve been raped, so I’m out as That Girl. That said, I’ve definitely found myself fucking someone and midway wondering, “How is it that I’m doing this? I don’t want to do this.” The sad thing is that the patriarchy, ingrained as it is, didn’t even require the guys in question to pressure me a lot. I had internalized the idea that I owed them sex.
I’m doing better now. Thank you, patriarchy blamers. But I still have found it hard to terminate sexual relationships/encounters that I didn’t want but the guy did.
A random thought–how many of you have been fucked in your sleep by someone who was waiting until you fell asleep to do so? This has happened to a friends of mine, and it’s fucking bewildering to them, since it was with a guy that could probably get it from them consensually at another time. Its a sick, ugly truth, but there it is–some guys don’t want the consent.
Yes. And it was a guy who had a piece of paper on me. But the worst I’ve ever heard is up thread, with some poor woman regularly woken by her husband shoving his dick in her mouth.
While I’ve had to fight off groping (sometimes repeatedly, because the guy in question didn’t understand a no), I’ve never had sex when I didn’t want to, and I’m comfortable with stopping intercourse when it hurts or is unpleasant, and switching to masturbation.
Luck? Hell yeah. And a sense of self that didn’t get destroyed by childhood abuse.
Does it make people feel better to know no one escapes? (Anty)
Let me answer a related question: Does it makes me feel worse to find that so many women think having a particular attitude, personality, or physique has protected them from harrassment?
Yeah, it makes me feel worse, because believing it means not grasping a fundamental truth about the patriarchy: that it’s all about power, and being feisty or street smart or cautious or whatever might buy you better luck for a while, but it doesn’t change where you are in the power relationship.
I don’t know. Maybe I’ve become to sensitive. Sometimes I feel like my blame barometer has gone off the scale. I’ve stopped trying to feel better. These days I’d settle for just not feeling worse.
Sorry; that should be “too sensitive.” Sigh. Have I mentioned that I make my living as a writer?
[… A] fundamental truth about the patriarchy [is] that it’s all about power, and being feisty or street smart or cautious or whatever might buy you better luck for a while, but it doesn’t change where you are in the power relationship.
Well this is so true! It’s the most succinct word on patriarchy in the whole thread, in my view. What it implies is that the structural dynamics of society on the macrological scale generally (although not absolutely always) trump individual qualities — even those which could and should be properly understood as “strength”.
So, we need to understand that the properties of an individual do not determine their fate — not as often as the properties of society, at large, do.
That being said, a “don’t fuck with me attitude” which can be backed up with one’s own physical and mental force if needs be, seems to work for me these days.
Nobody’s ever given me a REALLY hard time physically, but when I was a naive migrant and shy, idealistic young woman, I was once mind-raped in the workplace I was in. The lesson I take from that — as well as from the aftermath when I was further punished for a situation I had not created — is that levels of Culture (morality, dignity, respect, reciprocation, intellectual and emotional discrimination within the milieu, etc.) in today’s societies are really much, much lower than we are always led to believe by most forms of political and social rhetoric.
So, now I live as a wild animal — understanding the vicious reality of negligence and hate which underlies much of what passes for normal, everyday society. As my insights regarding this observation I make become stronger, so my expectations for cultural dignity within the general