Today is the day I come out against the roller derby.
Actually, today’s the day I come out against the patriarchy’s having codified female expression to fit its narrow definition of femininity, and the fact that this wrecks the roller derby. It wrecks everything else, too, of course; see the blaming archive for more information.
Oh, I know, I know. My previous remarks on the subject were pretty gung-ho in its favor. I believe I may have muttered something about “fun,” and how there are worse things, blamely-speaking, than chicks in little skirts skating in circles and pretending at intervals to beat each other up. “Yay, roller derby!” about sums up my old attitude.
Following a second jaunt to the rink, I stand by my statement that patriarchy perpetrates vastly more egregious crimes against humanity than the Texas Rollergirls. Nevertheless, the naugahyde charm of brawling, enwheeled womanhood has, for this spinster aunt, lost its cheapo luster. It now seems probable that I initially overlooked, in my zeal to soak up a bit of non-blaming fun of a spring Sabbath’s eve, certain of the show’s unseemlier aspects. Such as the looming leitmotifs of dudely prurience, puerile irony, and the general vapidity attending the proceedings.
Take, for example, that, despite the Rollergirls’ impressive skaterly talents, the “sport” is only nominally about skating. You have already guessed what it’s actually about, but I’ll tell you anyway: sex. That’s right, sex, only not real sex, such as the kind we could all be having if Hugh Hefner hadn’t ruined it for everybody, but phony sex as defined by the horndog ideology of the pornocracy. The roller derby is an example of what you might, if you were me, call “proto-porn”—a non-penetrative, G-rated, but nevertheless two-dimensional, stereotypical, and bogus picture of female sexuality generated from an amorphous plasma of cultural misogyny. It’s kindergarten burlesque.
The Texas Rollergirls are packaged as raunchy lumps of lower-class hetero feminine fun for an audience whose expectations adhere to a pre-programmed narrative affirming one of patriarchy’s most beloved bogus dichotomies, the bogus virgin-whore dichotomy (at the virgin end of the spectrum, proto-porn figures include Barbie, Wonder Woman, and Miss America). No matter how much fun the skaters are having—and it looks like they’re having quite lot of it—the fact remains that anytime a bunch of women change their names to “Lucille Brawl” or “Apoca Lippz,” squeeze into purple hot pants and set about grabbing each other in front of a crowd that’s paid $12 a head to see the sex class on wheels, patriarchy takes over. It dictates that women can’t own this experience, since according to patriarchal code, women on a stage are by their very nature commodities to be consumed in a purely sexual context by male voyeurs. Hence the glamorshots of the skaters on the website, the Playboyesque biographies, the plaid-skirt-and-white-cotton-underwear capitulation to juvenile male fantasy. Whoever these women are in real life, and regardless of their stature as genuine athletes, for the purposes of roller derby fan consumption, they are all of a type: loose-moraled proto-whores.
Look, I get that this is all supposed to be ironic riffing on vintage iconographic kitsch (for example, there’s a trailer trash team called the Honky Tonk Heartbreakers led by one Loosetooth Lulu; their uniform is daisy dukes). I get that a “bout” is really a Bakelite armature from which loosely dangles the vaguely scripted melodrama of a fantasy Bad Girl rumble. I get that it’s comical when fake bad girls sock each other.
I’m just wondering, on accounta its super-conformist hootchie-cootchie dude-pleasin’ veneer, whether this is kitsch worth preserving.
Because—all patriarchy-blaming aside—here’s my main complaint about the roller derby: it’s inane.
This is the intellectual pinnacle to which the spectacle rises: if you happen to spill your beer, and your misfortune is discovered by the announcers, a loud chappie in a suit made of Kool-Aide wrappers immediately infests your personal space and screams into a microphone, “Hey everybody, this guy spilled his beer! Shame!” He then leads the crowd in a chant. “Shame! Shame! Shame!” Whereupon the the women resume racing around in circles, and the announcers observe pointedly that there haven’t been many fights yet tonight, so immediately Pussy Velour “takes out” Loosetooth Lulu and they kind of pretend to hit each other. For crying out loud.
Must all entertainment contain some sort of genuine spiritually or intellectually enbiggening element?
Yes, as a matter of fact, it must.
By the way, the Texas Rollergirls are not the league featured on the reality show.
And right you are, my dear. And it just makes me sad to think that almost any activity that involves women being looked at can be said to be ruined by the male gaze.
There are certainly far worse things in this world.
Another word to add to my vocabulary: Protoporn.
Huh. I have successfully avoided roller derby my entire life. I had no idea they wore skirts. That’s pretty stupid.
Of course, IMO, saying the skirts on roller girls are stupid is like saying the masks are stupid in wrestling or that the cherry on a chocolate sundae is fattening.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that not only is today’s roller derby meant to be ironic, but that it’s meant to be an ironic take on how roller derby really once was back in the earlier part of the last century — real fights, real “trailer trash,” in other words, real poor, uneducated people (entirely women, of course) competing in a rink to make a living with no skills other than skating and brawling in a patriarchal society, largely for the amusement of men. In other words, today’s roller girls appear to be women making fun of other, more desperate women from bygone days, all in the name of fun and empowerment.
I don’t really know the history of the “sport,” but I was told when young (back in the ’60s) that “those girls” were all “a bunch of tramps” without the slightest hint of irony. It seems that today’s derby is a cartoon-style exploitation of a more obviously exploitative set-up which once existed for real.
Huh. Dizzy. Somebody get me a beer.
Actually, roller derby started out with dudes. There were no fights. It was just a marathon. Who could skate the longest without dying, that sort of thing. Over time it morphed into wrestling-on-wheels, and women’s teams were added, but there were always dude teams. I notice that that particular element is missing from today’s incarnation. If roller derby were considered a sport even at the level of legitimacy of pro wrestling, there would be men doing it.
… roller derbys really exist? Really? I’d always assumed that they were made up things that only happened in films.
I’m not going to get the full effect of the blaming until I get over the fact that roller derbys are real. Wow.
Oh Twisty dear! I regret not having saved you the trouble and expense of making a 2nd trip to the roller derby. Even as a young lass in the 70s who spent countless hours watching roller derby whilst my grandparents snored, I’m afraid I understood the whole affair as a patriarchally sexualized hoax! Now, don’t be fooled into thinking that I was just the most perceptive 10 year old on the planet (clearly there’s little evidence of that now), but instead feast your eyes upon this, the user’s manual that told me what to think:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068795/
Saw it when I was just a youngin’ –even before I was a little leg shaver– told me everything I needed to know about why roller derby and IWF events are really the same event, in the patriarchal sense. UGH!!!
Please also note that the really interesting take on roller beatings was the 1975 action sci-fi MALE TALE:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073631/
remade for our “pleasure” in 2002:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073631/
Ahhh, nothing like an early morning hurl to begin the day…
So, you spilled your beer, eh?
Thanks, Twisty. I did not know that this was once a legitimate sport or that men had ever participated. I thought it had always been porn on wheels.
Honestly, I’m not sure whether this new information makes me feel better or worse.
“If roller derby were considered a sport even at the level of legitimacy of pro wrestling, there would be men doing it.”
So true.
Roller Derby is one of the few ’sports’ or sporting events, where the women’s version of the sport outpaced the men’s version in popularity. So, you had to know it was more about sex than sport when that happened.
Hey, generally speaking, I’m a big fan of kitsch, but in almost every case, if you dig too deep, you’ll find the ugly side. No doubt about it.
But, I guess slagging the Derby is at least a nice change of pace… otherwise it would be all “genital mutilation” and “hetero sex is rape” all the time, eh?
Well, it looks like about 46% of my entertainment has been declared non-cromulent.
Argh! Finn, now you’re in for it. :)
I like the word “enbiggening”. I’m a big fan of neologisms. They are intellectually enbiggening.
Still, lots of things aren’t spiritually or intellectually enbiggening. Food isn’t. Not really. It’s enbiggening, but not spiritually or intellectually.
Pardon my ignorance but, please, what is “noncromulent?”
Mandos, Mandos, Mandos.
You are wrong.
Eating dinner is totally a spiritually enbiggening enterprise. Cooking it is an intellectual one.
But in any event, I didn’t say every THING has to enbiggen. I just said entertainment ought to. Not that it does. Oh, no.
Mandy, “cromulent” is from The Simpson’s.
Miss Hoover: “It’s a perfectly cromulent word.”
Norbizness is riffing on a Simpson’s episode. Miss Hoover was responding to Mrs. Krabappel’s statement that she had never heard the word “embiggens” before moving to Springfield. “Embiggens” was used in a classroom filmstrip about town founder Jebediah Springfield that Bart and Lisa’s classes (and their teachers, Miss Hoover and Mrs. Krabappel) were watching.
I hope this makes narrative sense.
Norbizness is riffing on a Simpsons episode. Specifically, he’s responding to Twisty’s use of the word “embiggens,” which was used on the Simpsons during a filmstrip shown to Bart and Lisa’s classes about town founder Jebediah Springfield.
Mrs Krabappel (Bart’s teacher): “I never heard words liek “embiggens” before moving to Springfield.”
Miss Hoover (Lisa’s teacher) : “I don’t know why not. It’s a perfectly cromulent word.”
I feel similarly about car racing. While I love the sound of a Porsche turbo whizzing over the corkscrew at Laguna Seca, or the Doppler scream of a Ferrari going flat out on the straight, the patriarchal posturing and the environmental destruction embedded in these events do not get lost on me.
Oh, and there’s those Hooters girls that wander around the paddock.
What’s a blamer gonna do?
By the way Twisty, I’m thinking of having “That’s right, sex, only not real sex, such as the kind we could all be having if Hugh Hefner hadn’t ruined it for everybody, but phony sex as defined by the horndog ideology of the pornocracy.” embroidered onto a set of sheets.
I just think it sucks (yes, that is my intellectual take on the situation) that in one of the few sports where women get to be athletic and violent (men get to do that all the time), the women also have to be dressed in short skirts and fishnets. And that webpage! “Likes: smoking in the girls room.”
Puhleeeze.
It’s not funny when the only way you can get people to come and see your sport is if you’re wearing a short skirt and showing off your boobs. I vote for more women’s football. Can’t do a “Playboy” shot of a player when she’s wearing all those pads. Of course, I’m sure the website would have all the players pointing out how sexy and feminine they are. God forbid you are athletic and like to hit people (all in the name of competition, of course).
Yet another case of men getting to have more fun than women. It started when I had to be a brownie instead of a boyscout (oooh, selling cookies. fun.), and it hasn’t stopped since.
At least RD has at least a veneer of sport attached. I got into verbal fisticuffs with hubby over not appreciating burlesque. Oy.
Ahhh, kitsch. I have a worrisome soft-spot for kitsch. And while I realize that the spectacle of roller-girl derby and the vast majority of kitsch revival/maintenance is firmly fixed under the male gaze to serve the male gaze, I can’t help but want to hold on to it and mold it into something to call my own…to subvert it and twist it around, like the femme vs. the feminine.
Why does the patriarchy get to own it all? The stranglehold that The Patriarchy has on “our” culture/society almost dictates that anything that occurs within it’s borders belongs solely to The Patriarchy, for it’s pleasure and purposes. Is there any concievable way to break outside and to effectively subvert it’s gaze? *brain fart* DER!
*sighs*, the politics of pleasure…
Bunny, patriarchy isn’t just some cultural movement or political party. It doesn’t just have a stranglehold, it’s the whole thing. It’s the fucking Matrix, man. There IS nothing else. And there’s no escape.
Sorry about the double post. I thought I’d lost the first post. The second one is phrased so much better that I really do wish I’d lost the first post!
I am totally not amazed that a comment thread at Aunt Twisty’s gets from the Texas Rollergirls to the most fundamental questions of cultural and political existence in only 21 comments. (”It doesn’t just have a stranglehold, it’s the whole thing” sez Auntie.)
As a young onion I learned about marxism. In those days I thought, along with Karl, that social relations, which appear to be intrinsic and permanent, are actually functions of economic relations, which in fact change through time—it’s a very important capability of the dominant group in their pursuit of permanence that they convince the rest of us that the world is unavoidably the way it is.
I still stick by the economics, but the sociology? You have to wonder when every revolution you can learn about simply ends up as another dudocracy. Can we change the world? Yes. Will the dudes still come out on top? Very likely.
But not necessarily…
If the patriarchy is everything, then what accounts for you and your capacity to reason and argue so eloquently and persuasively against it? For real; I am hungry for the answer to this question. If all concepts and identities are born and constituted through a web of insurmountable power structures, then how…are we alive? It’s a post-struct question but it applies to (the brilliant) radical feminist thought (that I have found here and love) as well. By relentlessly calling out the cool clean knife of ideology that cuts through all, we ultimately discover that the knife has gotten to us, too — we have no agency, are not ourselves, are nowhere.
How about separatism? Any hope there? But that is, I think, precisely the place at which the ironic kitchsters are born — they see that patriarchy’s everything (even permeating separatist worlds), so they’re like, hey, let’s have fun and “reclaim” things that are proven to be patriarchal and misogynist, since we can’t escape patriarchy, no matter what we do.
“Must all entertainment contain some sort of genuine spiritually or intellectually enbiggening element?
Yes, as a matter of fact, it must.”
Gak! Whatever for? To what basement of cultural stankitude would all this musty musting relegate the serene joys of Car Football??
(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1858640896825067657)
Hey, at least female ice skaters don’t have to wear the little skirts for competitions anymore. This was the first winter olympics where they were allowed to wear pants (which are really unitards, but that’s what the men wear, too).
I cling to shiny, sequined filaments of hope like this. Change is possible. It is! It is!
I think I need another beer.
As someone who currently plays this sport, I respect your opinions but do disagree with them. I don’t have the scholarly background on this topic that you do, so pardon my “ignorance” in some or many places as you see fit.
Camp is definitely a huge element in the current revival of roller derby. But no one forces us to wear short skirts, fishnets, low-cut shirts nor anything else slutty or revealing while we skate. Some of the girls playing choose to vamp it up, while others prefer more modest garb while playing the sport. Each player chooses her comfort level and what she feels okay in. No man is forcing us to look trashy. I can name several skaters who chose to wear fishnets on top of full-coverage opaque tights and knee-length skirts or shorts; as well as one who wore rufflebutts that covered her whole legs like pantaloons. Not everyone is showing skin but many of us are having fun and wearing fun things. Maybe those women who wear skimpier outfits get more press coverage, but there are women of all shapes, sizes, and levels of modesty skating out there during each bout.
It does get hot while playing sports, and many of us choose skimpier outfits not just for “the male gaze” but also for comfort and practicality. Obviously wearing a burqua or a full-length dress would be unacceptable. Long jeans would limit our flexibility; wearing sweatpants or long spandex pants would cause some of us to overheat. We skate 3 20-minute periods at top speeds, dole out heavy hits and get hit constantly, and we do a lot of sweating. Shorts and skirts allow more freedom of movement in our legs, and airflow to keep us cooler.
But why is it so horrible to wear something cute when playing a sport? Tennis players wear short dresses. Volleyball players practice their sport in bikini tops and short shorts. Somehow those outfits don’t take away from the legitmacy of their sports, yet fishnets make roller derby less of a sport?
Roller derby is fun to play, but it’s an expensive hobby that takes a lot of time and practice. We pay out of our own pockets for rink rentals, skates, wheels, bearings, safety pads, helmets, and many other incrementals. We practice several times a week for a few hours at a time. On average, we make an investment of $100-$300 for skates, $50-100 for pads, $30 /month to practice, plus many other expenses. Selling tickets to our official games is a way to help cover expenses that we’d otherwise be strapped by. Our friends and families want to know what we’re so excited about and want to attend. It may be true that some play things up for “the male gaze” … there are many gay males in our audiences, as well as straight women.
However, most of us would play it even if no one came to watch.
I take it with a huge grain of salt whenever anyone gets all absolutist on me. Yeah, the Patriarchy is the air we breathe and the water we drink, but we are not mindless slaves of the Patriarchy. We have autonomy, even while many things we do are influenced. Blaming the Patriarchy is not an inherently patriarchal activity. Ignoring or resigning oneself to the Patriarchy is far more Patriarchal!
The universe is in constant flux. Time is an illusion. I refuse to surrender my free will to those who can neither prove nor disprove that I have it.
Maybe it’s male privilege talking. But I’m saying it for any woman who might like to hold on to her hope in a gradually improving world, not to assert that it’s all OK — because it ain’t.
As one that skates for roller derby, I am offended by a few remarks. First and foremost, this IS a SPORT! Take a person who cannot skate and throw them into a bunch of seasoned skaters, they won’t last! A person cannot score points when they are unstable and frequently on the ground! I say that everyone that claims this is not a sport, please go skate for at least a solid hour this week, at a brisk pace, then let me know how you feel. Keep in mind, our practices are two hours long, four times a week.
As well as the ‘uneducated’ part. Most of the girls I know that play derby are college graduates. I also know many girls that graduated at the top of their college class. I for one am pursuing my nursing degree. As experience serves me, one cannot be ‘uneducated’ to get that degree and add to the mix raising two kids and working.
As said by vixen, derby gets hot and you need to move around freely. It’s not possible to do that in a long Martha Stewart dress or jeans!
I respect woman’s movement opinions, but please don’t hold yourself back by holding onto a constant grudge. If you want women to be treated equally then you have to be proactive about it, not constantly looking for the possible male chauvinist act in something trite.
Just out of curiousity-what do you gals wear when you exercise?
I am this close to just packing it all in. Not in a slash my wrists sense, not in a blow up myself and everyone I think I hate sense, not in a drive to Las Vegas and drink vodka tonics until I die sense. More like a move deep in to the forest, start talking to squirrels, and never come out again sense.
That’s what a shitty day I’ve had thus far.
But your post on Roller Derby has helped some, Twisty, and I thank you for that.
Vixen and Drew working to block Twisty the jammer!
I blame you, Twisty, for not seeing this for what it is to alot of us - a feminist community. Our sport is no less real or significant because men don’t own or play it. For shame. Out of 108 flat track derby leagues in the U.S., you’d write off the entire sport after watching one? Food for thought - this is how WE roll…
Rollergirls Out and Proud in Charm City
by Eia Folk
“I’ve never been a part of a community of women like this before,” said Elyse Miqueli (left) who goes by “Crazy Legs” on the rink, shown here with Aly Verdugo (”The Mexican Fury”) and Sara Sevier (”Nasty Trick”). (Photo: Eia Folk)
As Baltimore’s queer community winds down after another holiday, many local lesbians are still asking Santa for the same old gift they never seem to receive - a lesbian community in Baltimore.
Though Charm City is a city with its definitive queer hot spots, many women seeking a queer community find it difficult to locate one. Instead of the obvious bars and community centers, women are using more creative means for locating the Baltimore lesbian crowd.
The city’s roller derby league, the Charm City Rollergirls, is one unlikely location many lesbians say welcomes the community-seeking queer girl.
Although female roller derby teams have sprung up in almost every state throughout the nation since 2001, Charm City Rollergirls is Baltimore’s very own. True to its female collaborative skater-owned and operated reputation, women of all backgrounds, social statuses, and sexual orientations are not only tolerated but welcomed in this butt-kicking, high speed roller skating sport.
In roller derby, two teams play each other for three 20-minute periods, which are further broken down into two-minute “jams.” Five members from each team skate during each jam, and one player on each team - known as a jammer - scores points for passing opposing players.
Currently there are 43 women in the league who will be split into four teams with 10 to 11 on each team with a few alternates.
Lesbians Find a Place
Several queer athletes joined Charm City Rollergirls with an interest in finding a sense of belonging.
Sarah Sevier, whose derby name is “Nasty Trick,” is a 22-year-old Tennessee native, currently attending Maryland Institute College of Art. Sevier joined the Rollergirls to compete in an equitable and accepting sport.
“I originally became interested in derby because I learned it was a bunch of girls on skates kicking ass,” Sevier said. “I go to an art school where there are a lot of queer people.”
Yet Sevier hasn’t found an LGBT place of choice and had negative experiences in the Baltimore lesbian community.
“I’ve walked into places and felt completely like an outsider,” Sevier said. “I think mostly the bar settings seemed like the lesbians in Baltimore are pretty tight. There is a lot of gossip and drama. I only feel that way because I’ve never really been a part of it.”
Sevier advises other lesbians who feel the same to seek out what she considers “positive, productive places” of acceptance, like The Creative Alliance and the Charm City Kitty Club. She also said that young women should become “active and political” in their local communities.
The Charm City Rollergirls included in their bylaws of sportswomanship, which each player must sign, that no discrimination against another players’ sexuality, social or ethnic background is allowed.
New Feminist Sport
Aly Verdugo, who goes by the name “Mexican Fury” when she’s on skates, is a 20-year-old native of Los Angeles, California. She too came to Baltimore to attend MICA and join the Rollergirls. Through word of mouth, Verdugo discovered the league to be a “new feminist” sport.
“We are one big collective of women making up a welcoming, open group of people. It is really hard sometimes finding a good place to fit in where you can hang out with 30-year-old moms but still not get discriminated against.”
Reanna Scott, derby name “Lu Lu Spaceship,” is a 28-year-old Charm City Rollergirl and a native of Ventura, California. Scott considers the Rollergirls a feminist institution because it is the first and only all-girl sport, untouched by a male-dominated team or league.
“I don’t ever want to be compared to men’s teams,” Scott explained. “Everyone is a woman who is involved [in roller derby]. It’s so exciting because it is in alignment with my life, which is filled with female things. Everything I do is intentionally supporting women.”
Scott also met older women in the Charm City Rollergirls who are established in Baltimore.
“Instantly I became more comfortable here,” Scott explained, “because I could walk down the street and see my girls. I’ll be on my bike and see a Rollergirl - it’s a secret gang! Anywhere you go in Baltimore you see a Rollergirl because there are over 60 of us. They’re all like totally independent and have awesome jobs and [they are] friendly. They have your back.”
A Community of Women
Elyse Miqueli, who goes by “Crazy Legs,” is a 24-year-old Baltimore resident. She has a tattoo spanning her arm from shoulder to elbow with an image of a Barbie doll complete with waist and bust measurements. It reads: “be the woman you are and not the doll you’re sold.”
“I’ve never been a part of a community of women like this before,” Miqueli said. The Rollergirls gave her confidence in finding friends and a welcoming environment.
Jodie Zisow, or “Pixie Rocket,” is a 29-year-old Baltimorean who sees herself as an organizer at heart.
“The great thing about Baltimore, is that you can create whatever you want to see here,” Zisow said. “I’ve been an activist for a very long time. I prefer using more creative means like joining a roller derby team to meet other women. It’s affected me very much as a girl in the world.”
The Charm City Rollergirls skate at Putty Hill Skateland, and their season starts in March.
“We’re going to have bouts,” Sevier said. “What is important to all the queer girls in the league is that we have queer girls out their cheering for us. That would be the most exciting thing for us.
“When you’re finding productive ways to express yourself, you find the most amazing people,” Sevier explained. “Charm City Rollergirls is an amazing way to express yourself. I’ve found some great girls here. Things like going to the bar really don’t go anywhere.”
Learn more about the Charm City Rollergirls at www.charmcityrollergirls.com.
Dear Twisty:
Fascinating blog! As a Texas Rollergirl in my fourth year, and our league’s representative to the national governing body for our sport, the Womens’ Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA), I would like to lay a few relevant facts on this table. I won’t comment too much on the feminism/patriarchy issues you raise because I find them a bit tiresome, and don’t have a lot of time to argue on matters of opinion. The only comment I will offer on that topic is that the nationwide women’s flat track derby revival is probably one of the most significant positive events in the history of women, sports, and even feminism, which is already apparent to anyone who has seriously followed the history of the sport over the past 5 years. There is far too much history behind the national flat-track derby revival to explain everything here, but in terms of your blog article, you and your readers might find the following facts interesting:
Texas Rollergirls has always been a grass-roots, skater-owned-and-operated endeavor that has always been in the hands of the women skaters. This “by-and-for-the-skaters” model is also used by almost every other flat-track league nationwide. Men hardly enter into it at all. Indeed, I would venture to say that AT LEAST half of the fanbase for flat-track rollerderby, nationwide, is made up of encouraging women — not salivating men.
Flat track rollergirls are all ages, shapes and sizes. Many of us are mothers, and we come from very diverse careers and backgrounds. There is a wide diversity of body types and sexual orientations on the track, and each skater is allowed (and encouraged) to dress as conservatively or as provocatively as she wishes. So if nothing else, the flat track derby community is likely to be much MORE accepting and encouraging of female diversity than most other social environments.
Flat track rollerderby has evolved into a legitimate sport (and as you correctly noted, not the sport you can see on A&E’s “Rollergirls”), and there is nothing whatsoever “fake” or pre-determined about it. We endure hours of very athletic training from 2 to 3 times a week under national champion speed-skating coaches, and some of our skaters train more frequently than that. Over the years we have developed a complex, highly structured game with very specific rules that are now being used by independent women’s flat-track leagues across the country. At last count there were almost one hundred DIY flat-track women’s rollerderby leagues in the U.S. alone, with newer leagues now being formed in Canada and Great Britain. The leagues that have been established the longest belong to a national organizing body, the Women’s Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA), which has annual business meetings and coordinates frequent interleague competition. This past February, twenty flat-track leagues around the nation sent their all-star teams to Tucson, Arizona, to compete in a very intense three-day tournament to crown the first national Flat Track Derby champions. Texas Rollergirls, in fact, took the championship trophy at that event, and I am proud to have been on that team. For those who doubt the legitimacy of the sport, I’d love to tell you all about the torn PCL ligament in my knee that I suffered during the last two games of the tournament, and the MRI’s to prove it, viewable at:
http://www.bio.utexas.edu/faculty/jost/kneeanim.gif
and
http://www.bio.utexas.edu/faculty/jost/kneeanim2.gif
Some guys might find that grisly series of images sexy, but I kind of doubt it.
My main point here is that despite what the uninitiated observer may see at first glance, or think in their academia-and-beer induced stupor — flat-track rollerderby is all about the game, passionate athletic competition, and good camaraderie among female athletes with a common vision to create, manage, and play their own game, completely free from the primarily male-dominated world of sports. And so far, it has been a sensational success.
The only other correction I have time to make here, has to do with your comment about spilling a beer at one of our bouts. The only reason our announcers publicly ridicule a person who spills a beer is not for entertainment purposes, but because a spilled fluid on the skating surface presents a very serious hazard to the athletes. By making good-natured fun of the audience member who spilled their beer on the track, we hope to preserve the safety of the skaters who are already at risk by playing this contact sport.
Thank you for your interest in Texas Rollergirls, and I hope to see you at another bout soon.
Kind regards,
Manda Clair Jost, Ph.D.
aka Derringer .44
Honky Tonk Heartbreakers
Texas Rollergirls Rock ‘n’ Rollerderby
and National Representative to WFTDA
“Must all entertainment contain some sort of genuine spiritually or intellectually enbiggening element? Yes, as a matter of fact, it must.”
I’m going to think about that awhile. At first I said “YES” but I’m not entirely sure.
So it’s just sport and you’re just having fun. Get away with you. Biggest splat of bullshit rationalizing I’ve heard since reading Libertarian pro-pornograpy and pro sex-with-children apologist bloggers.
TP
Acknowledging the omnipresence of the enemy does not mean we acknowledge defeat.
But we cannot think we’ve won the war just because we’ve won one battle, or beaten their ranks back for a time (to use their war analogy).
The patriarchy is still here whether we’ve drubbed them once or four times on something, We are First Wave and Third Wave feminists fighting the same battles over and over. The patriarchy is still here wearing many disguises and playing many games.
One could of course argue (in the vein of Judith Butler) that derby participates in a form of parody. Through vamping it up at bouts, derby women show how unnatural, highly constructed, and performed femininity really is. In short, derby doesn’t participate in an objectification of femininity, but instead undermines the naturalness of femininity. I think that a lot of derby women are quite self-conscious about their performances as subversive acts.
Twisty: Oh, I realize the “matrix” like nature of the Patriarchy, but having only lived a life as a white woman in the west, and while I don’t doubt that The Patriarchy’s omnipresence in much of the rest of the world, I just like to cover my ass when making sweeping statements by trying to stay culturally specific.
That being said, good point. The Patriarchy doesn’t just have a stranglehold on our culture, it IS our culture. I blame this lapse in judgment on 7am and lack of a decent cup of ethically responsible coffee. Thank-you for the clarification.
But now you’ve got me musing, if there’s no escape, what’s the point? Why not just roll-over (Gufaw!) and call ‘er quits? There has got to be something outside of the patriarchy, however minute, n’est pas?
When I was a student, my fellow classmates loved to toss around Audre Lorde’s infamous “master’s tools” quote, but when querried as to what was outside of said master’s house, everyone came up blank. I realize there comes a point where the metaphor ceases to be useful, but I always found this troublesome.
/end ramble
We live in a world where women are constantly stripped of their multifaceted individualities and strategically squashed into the whore/virgin dichotomy. I feel it’s a shame that Twisty has fallen into that same trap by strapping that scarlet letter W whore-label onto all rollergirls and roller derby as a whole.
I’m a consultant working from home. I own my place. I’m single and at the moment I’m even pet-free. I work in the non-profit sector, so the overwhelming majority of my client contacts are women. I don’t watch much tv & don’t take it seriously when I do. In other words, I have no male boss, boyfriend, landlord, cat, client, or manufactured role model that tells me what to do or how to look while doing it.
Does that mean I’ve escaped the patriarchy? Not at all. But I do live one step removed from it & haven’t really been punished or had anyone try to reel me back into line. On some level I imagine this is because reacting to the women who drop out would only call attention to us and it’s better by far to ignore us in the hopes that dropping out doesn’t catch on.
Is the patriarchy inside my brain? Yes, absolutely, but less and less all the time as I spend more & more hours not dealing with it.
One thing I really like of what I’m hearing about Eve Ensler’s new piece, “The Good Body” is that she DOESN’T go on & on about how madison avenue & hollywood are to blame if women don’t like their bodies, which is a really tired message, and she DOESN’T go on and on about “10 ways to LOVE the skin you’re in” a la Oprah. She seems to mainly just be saying - what if they built a patriarchy and no women chose to play? Don’t fight it, don’t work at creating “alternative” imitations of it - just admit that you knew it was only a game all along and stop playing.
I hope more of the mainstream types that pop culture seems to think speak for feminism will pick up this message & repeat it like crazy. It’s the closest thing we’ve got to a way out.
Good lord people. Pony said it best. Just because you enjoy it doesn’t mean it’s not a piece of the patriarchy. I too was stoked on joining the roller derby, and quit b/c of many of the things Twisty mentioned (as I mentioned back in the last roller derby thread). Although fake punches? I wish I would have had those.
But recognizing the *cpmplete* sexualzation of the Derby depressed me and made me leave so i am off to sate my violent streak with Rugby and Water Polo.
As for what I wear to workout either a swinmsuit or a t-shirt and shorts (NOT hot pants and definitely not skirts).
Deal with it: Roller Derby is expressly patriarchal and that’s not to say that it’s not a sport, but that patriarchy doesn’t see it as a real sport or men would be doing it too.
Okay, my question would be two-fold:
First, what’s to be done? Is there a way to do the sport that isn’t part of the patriarchy? If so, what? Less skimpy clothing? No announcers? Don’t let men into the arena?
And if there isn’t, if the choice is merely a dichotomy between dropping out of society and participating in patriarchy, then what’s the point of the criticism?
If the only way not to help the patriarchy is not to play the sport, then doesn’t patriarchy blaming itself become confining, much like the patriarchy itself?
And where does pro wrestling fit into all this?
Naw, naw naw now girls!
Hold On one Damned minute there! Twisty! Put down that chablis and listen up.
I understand all your laments here about roller derby, but frankly. I looked at the sites of these women and only a few, maybe even two or three out of the team are sexin’ it up for the camera.
The rest are women seemingly of all ages and sizes. And about the other ones showing off their bodies, so…? Yes, I know, that probably IS for the male gaze, but does that malign all women who wish to participate?
Now, lets not pick apart these women, let’s let them have their fun and NOT ascribe to their activities the accusation that they exist primarily and or exclusively for the male gaze. Is not doing that putting women in boxes and assigning value according to how much skin they show and their potential to arouse the male gaze?
In fact, was it not on another thread that everyone agreed that no matter where a woman goes or what she does, she does it within the patriarchy? That the ‘male gaze’ is everywhere looking?
By their dress don’t they assert ‘yeah we know you are out there, so here fool.’ Don’t they assert very clearly in their bios and their activities that the male gaze is in fact meaningless? If they all choose to skate topless because they liked being topless, would that in fact be liberation or be for the male gaze? Humm..what if women LIKED to go topless and decided that having to cover up had everything to do with men making the rules?
Is that not a form of liberation to take the bondsman’s chains and laugh? Who decides that the male gaze is all important to a woman’s existance? The men? Or the women?
Hugh Heffner owns his ‘bunnies’ who are nubile, delicate and sexual, made for the submission and pleasure of men. Women are forced to starve themselves, to deny their own pleasure for the pleasure of men, to make themselves frail and weak to deny the every growing assertion of women in our culture do they not?
Or do you folks remember the thread about the mag article about women bloggers? WOmen who allowed themselves to be characterized as nothing more than another brand of Heffner heifer, in lingere, blogging about makeup and shoes? That was male controlled and damned offensive to any thinking woman. I don’t see that here.
What I see is a campy, aggressive, in your face kind of sport that indeed, women should be allowed to participate in WITHOUT for god’s sake, other women with their hands on their hips and wagging their fingers at them and saying ’shame, shame’.
THe beer thing, well Twisty, of course its classless, but does feminism assign value by class these days? Or should I rephrase; I thought that feminism has gone beyond class these days.
Also a look at the sites of these teams and it is clear to see that many of these women present themselves as they are, not as the patriarchy says they should be. I would also say that I can easily see that many are educated and even though I feel this shouldn’t need insertion, I will say it; many look like they harken from middle class or upper middle class backgrounds.
Yes, oldtimer roller derby was a sport made for the patriarchy, but what wasn’t then? Was not everything a women did outside the home worthy of scorn and ridicule? Wasn’t ridiculing and hating them a part of the whole gig?
Bad girls are bad girls no matter where they come, from isn’t that the old patriarchal rule? They must hide and feel shame for their sexuality, for their rebellion against the feminine rules of patriarchy and there’s always a gaggle of women around to say ‘tsk, tsk, look at those awful bad girls, how they keep us good women down.’ Bah! I say to that! Thou playest to the patriarchical hand with such speech.
I hate to say this, but sorta sounds like a lot women who point at me and my profession because I work with men and wear dirty clothes all day. “Oh look at her, she wants to be like a man, she’s coopted to the other side.” or, “Oh, she must be a dike to do that work, I’m not like that.” No dumbass, I’m working here to stomp the lie that women can’t do this or that if they do, they have to be relegated to some class of ‘other’, cast off and soiled. So don’t tell me how liberated you are and then start spewing the sputum of the demon all over me.
The patriarchy wants women to be this or that, good or bad, madonna or whores. That is the dehumanization of women, that they must be one thing or another ALL the time and there is no room for complexity or variety or calling the shots themselves — no room for having their own power.
Hell, suited men cruise around in Harleys and play tough guy, worship wrestlers and sports stars who say ‘fuck off’ on a daily basis and I don’t see too many people saying, “No! He can’t get into the boardroom! He’s dirty! He’s bad! He-he-he likens unto a filthy no good sports hero, he watches and enjoys, “Orange County Chopper!”
I say roll’em girls and get your degree and with your smarts and your attitude, we will be set free.
Salu Twisty, drink up.
Maybe, for extra controversy, we ought to write a post comparing roller derby with BSDM. Intrablamin’ for days!
So you’d be real proud would you Kate, to have your daughter do this? And have her look like this, and have men and some lesbians objectifying her? ‘Cause if you wouldn’t then tell us why it’s ok for some other mother’s daughter to do this.
And don’t bother telling me this is a sport. If you want your daughter to be involved in sports, you send her to the gym to buiild muscle, get her running (or) for cardio, get her into established sports with training, goal setting, and accreditation. Maybe support her taking what she learned there, and the reputation she has established there, into a degree in kinesiology or physical therapy, for just two examples. That’s where she could take it, if she had gone this route, instead of selling pussy. Which is all that’s going on here. I don’t ok it, not for my daughter, not for yours. It happens, but not without acknowledgement of what’s really going on. Can the bullshit pretense and at least we could respect that much.
oh, no — no more bdsm. please.
Wow! Sounds like the Patriarchy has you by the balls.
I think that if you did some research into modern derby culture, you would find that most of the women involved are self-empowered, intelligent and successful.
But you, much like the powerful white men you are worried about, can’t see past their skirts.
That’s too bad.
Mr. Hell, esq.
Last time I checked, I know I have little control over who objectifies me. I could be walking down the street buck naked, or covered from head to toe in black, impenetrable fabric with an eye slit, and somewhere, somehow, some fucking cockhead will manage to objectify me.
I, for one, am sick and fucking tired of having to second guess my self in order to ward off being objectified. No matter where I go or how I dress, I’m categorized by The Dude as either Fuckable or Not Fuckable. This doesn’t change if I don some roller skates and a mini skirt. The difference is at least when I slip my proverbial skates and skirt on, i know what I’m doing has the potential to be objectified, rather than assume that because I’m hiding under a baggy shirt, or whatever else is supposed to save my ass from The Dude’s assessment, I’m not playing into some Asshat’s rape fantasy.
Selling pussy? It’s my understanding that almost all roller derby leagues are amateur projects — money from tickets and concessions goes to offset expenses, more or less. The women who do this do it in their free time, for fun.
That’s what I’ve read, heard, and/or assumed, at least.
Lots of cool posts and good banter. I am left where I always seem to fall in these issues (exotic dancing,etc): while I appreciate the women who say they feel most empowered and in control over the auspices of patriarchy when they deliver the kind of “fake” goods we’re talking about here in this campy “racey” theater on wheels. OK, fine. I believe ‘em, but what sticks in my craw is that it’s even up for consideration. I mean, there’s no sport (that I know of) where the men dress like campy versions of fantasy men, perform some kind of athletic feat, and then start vacuuming to awaken some inner animal in women. And if such a thing existed no right-minded woman would find it more than mildly amusing…once…maybe twice when she took her mother along as a gag one Sunday afternoon. And you can’t turn the whole thing around and compare it to women going to Chippendales or any such revolting nonsense. It’s the horrible, bitter, shameful irony of the patriarchy. I’m not saying what I mean very well, but it does bother me that even some sexist event like a male revue is dependent on a HIGHLY discursive view of women.
I like antelope’s comment best; it reflects a lot of the same refreshing perspective that seems to have emerged from postcolonial feminist theory. I understand that dropping out of the game comes with the problems of passive resistance (are you really resisting if Big Daddy doesn’t know it?), but maybe it’s a kind of transitional form of more radical resistance where women learn to become increasingly comfortable in their own skin. I honestly don’t know. Like most postmodern arguments, there doesn’t seem to be any rational ending or defined/correct way of viewing or solving these issues aside from exposing them, talking about them, and supporting the ideas we believe in when it counts…at the poles and in the economy.
I hate to “tweak” someone else’s post, but your irritation is one I share Bunny, so I want to say this: I agree about the issue of control and objectification to a certain extent, but I tend to believe that they think we are all fuckable under the right conditions. One of the most revolting patriarchal beliefs seems to be their over-arching ingrained (inbred) belief that whether or not they fuck us is really about them and not about us…whether they are clever or opportunistic, or just damned lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. THAT irritates the snot outta me! And in this light, can you see how other women might consider your sense of control suspicious? I don’t think it’s anything personal…well, certainly not from me. It just gives a lot of us the creeps that this shit is even out there as commodity.
I too am against the forced selling of children into roving, gypsy-like bands of roller-derbyians… to apprentice in back-breaking, Shanghai Opera-style camps for years and years… and then be forced to ply their lascivious trade for leering Japanese businessmen.
I’m sorry, I was just reverse-engineering some of the more ascetic, Puritanical posts to see what it is we must be talking about here.
One more thing…
Not to be a post-o-holic here, but I couldn’t help re-reading Twisty’s original post doubling back on her original pronouncement that RD is fun. Ya know, the shit of it all is that it does look like loads of fun, right? I mean, I’d have an absolute blast whirling around like that at top speed and putting on a show…though probably I’d get bored with the show and just want to race. And I can imagine how it could be a hoot to be in the stands, one fist in the air and the other clutching a lager (hoping to hell that I didn’t spill it!). But there is something about the whole thing that makes it seem like the real nugget in Twisty’s post is that it’s the kind of thing you could do once or twice, as a skater or a spectator, and have a laugh or two. But making it a way of life? A habit? I dunno, maybe I am just getting old, but even at its kitschy best, I can’t imagine it being amusing on a regular basis. It’s surely one of those things where if you look just one second too long you’ll be pissed as all hell and blaming like a friggin’ maniac all over again.
The point about there not being a men’s version of roller derby is seems moot to me. Why would most men want to parody masculinity and destabilize it when it’s a dominant position? Of course women would be more prone to enact parody as gender subversion since they are the ones to be constricted by heteronormative femininity.
Hey Norbizness. Girls havin’ fun just needed your ball clanking approval to make sure no-one missed the point. Thanks for ringing in with that.
norbiz, if I may be permitted to pick up what you’re laying down, is it your contention that some previous posts offering blanket criticism of the roller-derby indulge in a bit of glorified slut-shaming?
Now, I think a critical reading of the roller-derby is, like every other cultural practice, useful and necessary. But, again, I think any feminism (or any intellectual pursuit generally) that ignores or denies the experiences of the people participating in that practice fails in its project and loses any liberatory potential it has. There is a lot of valid critism that we can make of rhe roller derby, but we have to recognize that the women who participate in it do so for valid reasons, and that they have every right to do so.
And regarding patriarchy and its ubiquity… Partiarchy is everywhere, but it isn’t everything. If you look for patriarchy, you’ll find it always and everywhere. The next step is to look for the cracks — they’ll start to become more and more visible, and when you find them, they can be pried open. Solutions aren’t found by staring at the problem. Identifying the problem is important and necessary, but at some point it’s necessary step back from it and look for gaps.
Oh, and Lauren, behave. Don’t you remember what happened last time you got clever?
I guess that’s just my point,Cassie. It can’t happen in reverse to any effect that would make it worthwhile.
Pony: Honestly, I don’t know why more comments and more ideas roller-derby leagues aren’t submitted for my approval first.
Knife Ghost: Basically. Or one could re-read comments #27 and 31. They seem to have been written by autonomous human beings who have made this recreational choice, and yet somehow didn’t offer a full-throated, simpering apologeia for male privilege like some elbow-padded Barbi Benton.
“Slut shaming”?
None of these young women deserves to be called a slut. How dare you? It’s not the women; it’s the patriarchy.
And this is my last post on the topic of Feminism 101.
I remain unconvinced that parody can’t be worthwhile just because men don’t generally parody masculinity. I think that if a parody of heteronormative femininity (by drag queens, by derby women, and so on) works to denaturalize femininity it logically follows that the very same subversive act of parody would also work to denaturalize masculinity (since one can’t ultimately define femininity/masculinity except for in relation to one another). I think, overall, that the problem I see in the original blog is not in its claims about the male gaze and the role of spectacle (in other words, in the issues it takes with the audience), because, as numerous others have noted, no matter how the female body is represented it remains objectified, but rather that the post doesn’t “blame the patriarchy” as it were, but instead blames the women involved in what could be read as a “subversive bodily act.”
Cassie I didn’t read Twisty’s post as blaming the women. Not at all. And just because we are objectified wherever we go, that doesn’t mean we can pretend we don’t know what’s going on with the Hooters girls or the roller girls. Yes they willingly do this. Doubley sad. So we can see what’s going down with Brittany, Paris and the Misses Simpson but not here? Selective blaming.
I’ve worked supporting my sisters in the sex-trade. Those women knew what they were doing too, but they didn’t pretend it was some kind of brave radical feminist act or fun fun fun.
“Deal with it: Roller Derby is expressly patriarchal and that’s not to say that it’s not a sport, but that patriarchy doesn’t see it as a real sport or men would be doing it too.”
I hope the irony of this sentence wasn’t lost on everyone else. Roller derby is expressly patriarchal yet the patriarchy doesn’t acknowledge it?
Most of you have completely missed the point of roller derby…it is a CELEBRATION of women! What could possibly be more anti-patriarchal? Our league’s very mission statement is “promoting the physical and mental strength and independent spirit of women.” We are a registered non-profit organization, run by the skaters, for the skaters. Our blood, sweat, & tears drive this endeavor…it has nothing to do with “selling pussy.” Why should skaters be punished for celebrating our beauty? I like to dress up in short skirts & fishnets to skate, but I certainly don’t do it for any man, not even my husband. I dress up for myself and for my teammates, because it is fun & I like to take part in celebrating our bodies. This is not a sport of super models; we are real women, in all shapes & sizes, and we have never felt so empowered and gorgeous. We are strong athletes; we practice hard, cross-train, & lift at the gym just like any other athletes. Since when do we need to look at what men are doing to validate what WOMEN are doing?? You people have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. I would be damn proud to have my daughter play roller derby if she so chooses.
>If roller derby were considered a sport even at the level of legitimacy of pro wrestling, there would be men doing it. - Twisty
>patriarchy doesn’t see it as a real sport or men would be doing it too. - Burrow Klown
You are exposing your ignorance here. Men are not *allowed* to participate, except as referees, mascots, and other sorts of support staff. With very rare exception (I don’t know of any currently operating), the leagues are women-owned and women-run. WFTDA, the governing body of the sport, is made up of representatives from leagues around the country. Members voted that leagues had to have only female skaters to be considered for inclusion in the national association, and that ownership had to be at least 67% female. In most cases, ownership is 100% female.
Leaving the lack of research aside for the moment, frankly, I do not understand how you can call yourself feminists in one breath and then insist that a sport is less legitimate because men do not participate in it in the next.
>Biggest splat of bullshit rationalizing I’ve heard since reading Libertarian pro-pornograpy and pro sex-with-children apologist bloggers. - Pony
The fact that you are comparing women skating in skirts to defenders of child rape speaks for itself, I think.
>So you’d be real proud would you Kate, to have your daughter do this?… And don’t bother telling me this is a sport. If you want your daughter to be involved in sports, you send her to the gym to buiild muscle, get her running (or) for cardio, get her into established sports with training, goal setting, and accreditation. - Pony
Funny, because in order to be a better skater, I go to the gym to build muscle and do cardio, and then I skate at practices 2-4 times a week on top of that. Practices include sport-specific drills and skills evaluations, so there’s your training and goal setting. As for accreditation, as I said earlier, leagues are accredited by the sport’s governing body.
Regarding people’s daughters…I’ll leave you with this bit of audience feedback from a survey we took:
“We are sooooo grateful to bring our daughters to a female sport that is both fun and taken seriously by its participants. The broader spectrum of body-types, all cute in short skirts, but most importantly strong and serious about what they are doing is a conscientious choice we are making to support for our daughters.”
Ana Bollocks
Gotham Girls Roller Derby
i wanted to like roller derby, too.
but a male-run music blog showed me exactly why i wouldn’t. he had a post showing a fun night out he’d had. first, (male) musicians were pictured. note: their heads were included in the photographs.
scrolling down, photos of roller derby asses. the women, undoubtedly hardcore feminists, had had their dear little heads cropped right out of the photos.
Since flat track derby leagues are “by the skaters, for the skaters,” by condemining their events as spectacles that create “proto-whores” I’m afraid that it does, ultimately, blame the skaters for somehow pandering to a masculinist gaze. As someone else noted, what would be the way for these leagues–who have expenses to pay like rink time, coaches, etc.–to sustain themselves without becoming subjected to a male gaze? If it is necessary for these leagues to have an audience in order to offset their costs how could they avoid this? Play for a female audience? I think many people in this conversation would agree that women, too, have been asked to objectify other women and to see the word through a dominant masculinist way of seeing, so there seems no way to avoid this objectification save for not playing at all, which seems far more limiting than playing does.
Jami - why would you let some jerk’s blog influence what you like & what you don’t? Try going to a bout & deciding for yourself.
Pony: “So you’d be real proud would you Kate, to have your daughter do this? And have her look like this, and have men and some lesbians objectifying her? ‘Cause if you wouldn’t then tell us why it’s ok for some other mother’s daughter to do this.”
Well actually, I could see at least one of my daughters actually doing this for a bit of past time and making fun. I’d be pushing them to get into law school or something like I do now though, but no, I wouldn’t be all beside myself.
Both of my daughters dress in the fashions of their peers which I haven’t necessarily liked over the years, but I did notice that their minds weren’t turned to mush with every belly top they wore. They were still just as sharp and articulate as ever. Now, mind you that doesn’t mean I haven’t made them fully aware of the sexism of the fashion industry. Nor does it mean that I will change my non-fashion clothing preferences anytime soon.
I wonder if participating in roller derby would inhibit these women from wider social acceptance in he same way say?
I don’t think this is all about feminism either. I see this largely as a class issue as well. Old hatred and class division serve well to keep women in compliance, “act like her and you won’t get to marry a nice boy (alpha breadwinner). That worked like a charm, but has been falling apart as of late. I see the roller derby as just another crack in the patriarchy facade as women do this, organize it on their own, like it and don’t give a hoot about how the men see them. They’d have to bar men at the door in order to lock out the ‘male gaze’ and that seems rather defeating, as in order to enjoy and participate in the sport, cash is required.
They appear to have their own power and wish to engage in something for their own enjoyment. That it is not backpacking, kayaking or tennis, is certainly not for me to have a beef.
And yes there is a stupid male version of this kind of thing, its ‘pro wrestling’, the great white po’ boy’s idol.
ANd unlike stripping or prostitution, these women’s health is not great peril or left in the power and hands of a man. Nor am I convinced as much as it is argued here, that the women take up this entirely for the male gaze.
Like Knife says very well: “I think any feminism (or any intellectual pursuit generally) that ignores or denies the experiences of the people participating in that practice fails in its project and loses any liberatory potential it has. There is a lot of valid critism that we can make of rhe roller derby, but we have to recognize that the women who participate in it do so for valid reasons, and that they have every right to do so.”
I see a lot of shaming here. Don’t women get shame enough from the patriarchy?
It’s the defenders of pornography and child rape who support you. Roller girls isn’t about sex. It’s about pornography and rape. They are not the same thing, which you and Norbizness don’t seem to get. We’ve done this thread twice now, and I’m more sickendd by it than I can tell you. It’s one thing to have to explain to men why sex and rape are two different things, but to my sisters? Goodnight.
Watch the video:
www.pinkspage.com
>It’s the defenders of pornography and child rape who support you. Roller girls isn’t about sex. It’s about pornography and rape. They are not the same thing, which you and Norbizness don’t seem to get. We’ve done this thread twice now, and I’m more sickendd by it than I can tell you. It’s one thing to have to explain to men why sex and rape are two different things, but to my sisters? Goodnight.
Ummm… it seems to me that this post speaks for itself, too.
Props to Ana Bollocks, love the name. It sounds like kindof a dumb sport, but what the hell, aren’t they all? What I like is that women are running it how they damned-well-please–thanky– and are very disinclined to eat shit over it, too, judging from the comments left here by honest-to-goodness practitioners.
I’d also observe how easy it is for patriarchy blaming, a study I am new to (yes, I’ve read the fucking FAQ), but enthusiastic about because Twisty makes learning fun, to yank the seekers off the patriarchs and point them at sisters in arms. Score one more for big white daddy!
I haven’t spent much time in Austin, but don’t they have strip joints there? Why in the hell is a guy going to go watch Roller Derby when he can shove his F-350 right into the lot down at Scootchies where they wave their asses right over your bowl of peanuts?
My guess is that Roller Derby might just be kinda fun, exciting. Like wrestling or something.
Pony: I’ll quote cassie, cause she did a damn good job.
“Since flat track derby leagues are “by the skaters, for the skaters,†by condemining their events as spectacles that create “proto-whores†I’m afraid that it does, ultimately, blame the skaters for somehow pandering to a masculinist gaze.”
Kate expanded on it very well. I didn’t call women who participate in roller-derbys “slut”. To make that claim is either incredibly disingenuous, or indicitave that I don’t need to spend time discussing this with you. You shamed them as if they were, and I called you on it. I’m glad to hear that you’ve worked in support of women who work in the sex industry. It’s hard and essential work. But if we are to assume that the roller-derby _is_ part of the sex industry (and I’m sure most skaters would take excetion to that) I don’t believe we can in good conscience shame them for it.
The only shaming done here which was directed toward people rather than the issue was not done by any regular poster to this blog.
Roller derby was broadcast on black and white television when I was a little bitch–er–child. (By bitch I mean, the child who always pointed out the social injustice and sexism of the time. I am not saying it like it is a bad thing. I once got into a huge argument with the aforementioned asshole father over whether Tampax® could increase its market share only if more thirteen year olds started their periods or if it was about brand loyality.) And I have wondered why it wasn’t as big today as it was then. Today we have the flimsy Formica® covered veneer of political correctness, but that will be easily fucked up with only a perfectly round ring of grape juice stain sat on the countertop.
Which begs the question, if wrassling is bigger than roller derby, why is that? Both now are horrible sexist–card girls wore more years ago–and wrassling is more homoerotic–not that there is anything wrong with that, but Bubba don’t know how gay he really is–and both are full of naked human bodies shot full of plastic and ‘roids. Both involve alot of peroxide and violence.
Not to derail this thread, but why isn’t roller derby as big as wrassling?
See, here’s the thing… As far as I can tell, people seem to have two main problems with the roller derby.
A. The women wear revealing costumes, presumably for the beneift of the male gaze.
B. The women engage in spectator sports, which inherently objectify the participants.
I guess MY problem is I still can’t see what the solution would be. Any sport is going to have problem B, and A, while problematic, doesn’t seem like that huge a deal to me.
I mean, I have trouble seeing the connection between a skirt/tank top combo and child rape.
Maybe it’s just me.
Ultimately, I’m still a bit baffled as to what a sport would look like if it had an acceptable lack of patriarchy involved. Is it just a matter of the outfits being too sexualised? Or is the entire idea of spectator sports so inherently patriarchal that it should be abandoned? Or is it something else?
Help me out here.
Oh, yeah and one more question. Since I have been knocked on my ass a time or two, can someone explain to me how they enjoy watching other people male, female, whatever, get knocked on their asses? Hmmm?
Anything can be sexualised.
Most jobs are sleazy.
To me, the male analogue to roller derby would be the old Harlem Globetrotters. Until 1950, African Americans were not allowed to play in the NBA, and even after that it was more difficult for black players to play on good professional (lucrative) teams. So the Globetrotters incorporated comedy, camp, kitsch into their play, and drew a worldwide audience. They were serious, professional athletes without the same choices as white players, and they were also criticized for uncle-tomming.
I don’t know, though, Sue. I think the issue here is about the sexual kitsch and its by-products.
Hot Damn! Some damn fine dialectic going on in this joint. I wish joy to all in the thread above. You all dodge and weave and think on your feet, it gives me joy to read it. I am, as always, yr B. Dagger Lee
What seems to be going on here by all the roller derby enthusiaists is no deep analysis of the situation. We’re not saying that you’re horrible for enjoying it, but you’re also stating that this objectifictaion is not happening and that you dress up ‘for yourself.’ Did you ever sit down and think why that is, because it’s pretty engrained in all of us to dress up for others, and this is unconciously. I’ve had to take many a step back from things that I loved and analyse them and the results have not been pretty, but to ignore it by saying you feel empowered? That’s the same as saying sex work is empowering. Yeah, to who? Because seriously it’s just the same old patriarchal bullshit.
You are exposing your ignorance here. Men are not *allowed* to participate, except as referees, mascots, and other sorts of support staff.
No we’re pointing out that if it was considered a legitimate sport that there would also be men’s teams.
I hope the irony of this sentence wasn’t lost on everyone else. Roller derby is expressly patriarchal yet the patriarchy doesn’t acknowledge it?
Patriarchal in the way of look we can get women to dress in tight, teensy uniforms and beat each other up. Patriarchy thinks of it as a pseudo-sport for the reason stated above. (I’m not saying *I* don’t think it’s a sport, but that the patriarchy doesn’t.)
Whups. Time once again for me to explain what I meant by all those words I wrote up there.
To Texasrollergirl and everyone else who has somehow gotten the idea that I don’t think roller derby skaters are athletes: I never said that. I am, in fact, way in awe of your skaterly chops. As an aside, however, I feel I should point out that you don’t have to be an athlete to fuck up your knee. I got sideswiped by a pack of dogs in Barton Hills the other day while composing an Italian sonnet and have been hobbling around in a brace ever since. But I digress.
The fact that Texas Rollergirls is grass-roots and skater-owned—which, by the way, I was happy to point out in my earlier post in defense of roller derby—is commendable, but it mitigates the derby’s ultimate capitulation to male prurience only to an infinitesimal degree. This is not, I emphasize, women’s fault. It’s because patriarchy always wins.
To Vixenvangogo, who has somehow gotten the idea that I would prevent skaters from availing themselves of “slutty” attire: I do not impugn skaters for wearing whatever the fuck they want to wear. I impugn the social order that attaches misogynist connotations to such eminently practical sporting gear as fishnet stockings and Catholic school skirts.
To Drew, who has somehow gotten the idea that I believe the skaters are “uneducated”: I never said that. I never intimated that. I have no reason to suspect that. Why do you think that?
To Raunchy Lumps, who has somehow gotten the idea that I believe men need to play a sport for it to be legitimate: I never said that, either. What I said was that if roller derby were regarded by the general populus as a legitimate sport, men would have co-opted it by now, as they co-opt anything in which they see real value. I give as the reason that men have n