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Jun 14 2006

Judgmental Sex Pedantry

Plastic santa
Today’s unrelated photo: Season’s Greetings from the aftermath of yesterday’s razing of the tar-paper shack three doors down from the Twisty Bungalow.

Flea—how I admire Flea; no erudite dildopreneur was ever so hilarious—actually gets email asking for sex advice. I can only imagine the degree to which such a thing enhances her quality of life. My envy is pronounced. I myself am never called upon to opine on intimate matters. Which is probably just as well, since my reply to every question would undoubtedly be “Dump him!”

Anyway, in response to one such email, Flea has a post up containing second-party information on how to perform a blow job without gagging.

Flame me if you will, but I posit nevertheless that no woman, since the dawn of the patriarchal co-option of human sexuality, has ever actually enjoyed this submissive sexbot drudgery. There’s a reason that deep-throating a funk-filled bratwurst makes a person retch.*

How dare I presume to impugn the sanctity of a woman’s right to the blow job? I do so mostly on accounta I will get a big bang out of the impassioned arguments defending it.

______________________

*Reason: It’s fucking gross.

245 comments

30 pings

  1. Kelley

    Who wants that thing in her mouth, anyway? *shudder*

  2. antiprincess

    I highly doubt that, at this stage in the game, anyone would be stupid enough to take the bait.

    I’m dumb as a sack full of hammers and even I’m not up for it.

  3. oudemia

    What about regular old pedantry?
    Is “judgemental” accepted spelling now?
    I see it all the time these days, so I’m guessing it might be.

  4. Gertrude Strine

    From antiprincess at June 14th, 2006 at 9:14 am:
    “I highly doubt that, at this stage in the game, anyone would be stupid enough to take the bait.”

    Intriguing.
    What do you call trolling from the owner of a forum?

    I’ve got no time to check back in to watch the show this week, but every good wish for the health of the trolling host.
    I’m a 7 year ovarian ca winner. And fairly continent and sanguine withall.
    Not having entertained a desire to even kiss a penis, I’ll pass on the link to technique advice thanks.

  5. Arianna

    I, also, cannot imagine any woman enjoying giving blowjobs. I personally find the whole idea repulsive (and I have a strong gag reflex).

  6. saltyC

    Thank you Twisty for the brave truth.

    I suspect men would agree (where does the term “that sucks” come from?) and that’s also why they get off on it.

    Confession time: I wonder how much of my heterosexuality is connected with self-erasing internalization.

  7. CafeSiren

    Hmmm… OK, I’ll bite (no pun intended): how about quid pro quo as a reason?

  8. CarolS

    I’m a hetero woman and I always figured the only reason women’ll do it is so that the guy’ll go down on them when they’re done. Just call me a cock-eyed (pun intended) optimist.

  9. B. Dagger Lee

    Ladies! Twisty’s spoiling for a good fight. Thank god she’s back in form!

    Well, I’ll take the bait, but only because you want it so bad.

    Eating pussy, munching on the old carpet, boogling the clam (okay I made that last one up) anything can seem like a chore. I only had a boyfriend once, for two weeks, sometime in the early 90s and definitely on a lark. So, I’ve given maybe six blowjobs in total in my life, and I distinctly remember thinking, — as I was engaged in one — “So what’s the big deal? What’s the fuss? Some spit and hand motion combined with tongue? What’s with all the complaining from the straight girls?” Of course, I knew I was going back to my lesbotopia eventually. And it was with an adult lark-friend who would not have dreamed or dared to pull patriarchal pranks or punches on me.

    I submit for your approval the following proposition: Literal actual cocksucking good! Metaphorical cocksucking bad!

    Oh and let me anticipate all the actual, real, physical bullshit (hair pulling, head pushing, etc) that causes the blowjob giving experience to be bad is because of the entitlement, domination, sadism, kick-the-shit-out-of-women paradigm of the patriarchy. And I blame the patriarchy for all that shit, no doubt.

    But you know, in my opinion, the biggest cocksuckers are actually straight boys.

    Yrs, B. Dagger Lee

  10. TP

    I could never understand how men could be so crazy about getting a blowjob. It’s easily my least favorite act of common sex. Though the messy smelly and ultimately depressing act of anal sex is almost as bad. As imagined in the pornographic fancies of most men they are each uncomfortable for the woman, but anal sex at least is slightly more comfortable for men, though the ick factor in certain of the textures encountered therein is pretty high.

    I see either one of them as poor substitutes for real sex, which for me is foreplay and everything that entails followed by the usual boring sex that can only be made great by the whole foreplay and messing around stuff beforehand. I like to be sucked on a little in the interests of foreplay, but as an act alone by itself it just can’t hold my interest. It’s just not that comfortable. Making a woman come with my mouth and hands is a lot of fun, though. It’s interesting how some women like my efforts and others are less impressed. It seems like an emotional response!

    I’ve always been a very boring and very loving person. But the blowjob fetish men have is deeply suspicious to me. Let it not be said I’ve never had a good one. I have. But was it ever as good as intimacy? Nowhere near.

    Nothing is more overrated than sex; and even if we manage, by some miracle, to escape the frenzied importance placed on it by a paternalistic world, we can still find that our own youthful desires can give it an importance far out of proportion to the actual enjoyment it provides.

  11. tuckova

    I like the joke that goes, “There’s a reason they call it a job.”

    But I like giving head. I like doing things I’m good at. I like doing things that make other people happy. I don’t consider it a patriarchal thing because I think it’s fun to do in both directions. I would stop if anybody grabbed my hair or shoved me around or did anything other than moan appreciatively. I wouldn’t just stop: I would stop and find my shoes and go.

    I don’t think it’s something a woman should feel obligated to do because a man expects it, but I think that extending kindness to your partner is always a good thing, especially if your partner is regularly kind to you. If a woman doesn’t want to give head, she shouldn’t, but I hope she’s doing her share in other ways. Same for men. And bonobos, who I’m given to understand also enjoy a bit of the oral.

    So that’s my impassioned defense of my rights TO and anybody else’s rights NOT TO, and I think both in this case are justified.

  12. Delphyne

    Or if not “Dump him” at least “Get that thing out of your mouth!”

    What part of gagging do women not understand?

  13. hedonistic

    hahahahh.

    For reasons I won’t bore everyone with here (see my “Does Size Matter?” essay if you want the gory details), I became a virtuoso (virtuosa?) at said technique during my 10 year marriage. Then again, I’m also 80% heterosexual with an oral fixation. Some folks with oral fixations gravitate toward cigarettes, drinks and food, while I gravitate toward the oral side of sensual pleasure, and I’m being gender-nonspecific here. To each his/her own.

    Today I enjoy it as much as intercourse. More, even, since I have a big fat ego and love the slavish devotion it earns me. We all have to be good at something, yes? Too bad when people ask me what I’m good at, I can only smile and shrug and say, “I can’t really say . . . “

  14. Matt25

    Speaking as a gay man, I think it’s much less fucking gross (in fact, *not even* fucking gross) when guys are doing it for each other than when there’s a woman involved. Of course this is just my own opinion, but Twisty has taught me that judgmental sex pedantry is the best kind of sex pedantry, and I wanted to give it a try. Go Twisty!

  15. FamousSovietAthlete

    From the person requesting blow job tips:

    I’ve tried bananas, but honestly that was just weird.

    So bananas are weird, but inedible foreign objects are A-OK?

  16. Sylvanite

    Well, she probably wasn’t getting enough feedback from the banana. I know I prefer to get a little feedback.

  17. Ledasmom

    oudemia: I may be wrong, often am, but I think “judgement” is the more-commonly-British spelling and “judgment” the more-commonly-American spelling, with the adjectives following the nouns in form. If I’m right about that then it’s wrong in the same way “colour” is wrong in this country: wrong for a college essay, not really wrong in casual use.

  18. jjg

    >Flame me if you will, but I posit nevertheless that no woman, since the dawn of the patriarchal co-option of human sexuality, has ever actually enjoyed this submissive sexbot drudgery. There’s a reason that deep-throating a funk-filled bratwurst makes a person retch.*

    No flaming – why should there be? It’s just a posit and it’s incorrect, in my case. But how is one supposed to know every “woman, since the dawn…of human sexuality”?

    This straight woman loves giving head, has never gagged, and regularly practiced on the 2 serious partners I had earlier in my life (they spoiled me by having large penises – lucky me). It just happened – I was taught well. They were lucky, I was too. My 2nd partner regularly reciprocated and he loved it.

    But that’s just me – and many others don’t like it. That’s fine and to that, I say: to each her own.

  19. Puffin

    Be there a woman with soul so dead, she actually enjoys giving head? Apparently, yes. And how.

  20. bitchphd

    I don’t get the comment about bjs actually not feeling good. Cunnilingus feels good; I don’t see why the same wouldn’t be true of bjs. It’s wet, it’s soft, and you have more control over it than you do of your cunt. Makes sense to me.

    That said, from the pov of the giver, sometimes it sucks, sometimes it’s fun. No, the act itself, apart from any emotional content isn’t fun–after all, it’s not like ppl go around sucking on–I can’t think of a neutral object, but anyway, a phallic object of some sort–just as a hobby. The fun part is the sense of mastery and being in charge of making someone go weak at the knees. I assume this is a big part of what’s fun about cunnilingus, too? Blow jobs that are about “do me baby” are, in fact, really fucking awful and irritating, and irritating people is not a good way to get a good blow job.

    I wasn’t gonna respond, but hey, anything to amuse Twisty :)

  21. hedonistic

    Soulless? Mighty presumptuous, Puffin. Then again, so is generalizing about every woman on the planet: That we do enjoy, should enjoy, or should not enjoy, well, just about anything.

    I had to remove about twelve ellipses before hitting the “blame” button.

  22. mayerson

    Well, I think the best way to give head (if one can be bothered) is if the guy is firmly tied down. And since not many guys are cool enough to enjoy being firmly tied down, well, I haven’t had much chance to fully work out my theory.

    Let me add my thanks as well, Twisty. It’s high time someone said cocksucking is an acquired taste and not for everyone (because it is gross most of the time).

  23. SuperB

    Amen, Dr. B. Anything to amuse Twisty.

    Can’t it be said that oral sex in general, whether it be fellatio or cunnilingus, is excellent for the receiver and kind of a drag for the provider?

    Although, perhaps providing cunnilingus is less problemmatic than providing fellatio. Hmmm. Bisexuals where are you?! We need some experts! Come on, give us a comparative analysis!

  24. alix

    Agreeing with mayerson there re: tying down, though i prefer to just hold him down firmly.

    Also, the way i’ve explained it when someone asked me, “Why would you want to do that for me? Are you sure i’m not making you do it? What makes it OK for you to do?” is that, quite simply, i could be using force and power, yet here is an opportunity to extend gentleness in a pleasurable way. To get someone to orgasm just by being gentle and comfortable, without rushing or pushing, is an extreme turnon. It is, to me, like making someone come by kissing them. Which, you have to admit, is HOT.

  25. sly civilian

    “Though the messy smelly and ultimately depressing act of anal sex is almost as bad.”

    God. I hope you don’t tell any gay men that. Wait, you just have.

    Anyhow. I think there are a great many things that can be said, most of which already have. One thing from a conversation i had recently was about the power dynamic. There is the hairpulling, violent image, and i don’t feel i need to detail the obvious problematics there. BUt as was pointed out to me by a wise friend, how many women actually get to have a vagina dentata? There is the possibility to perceive power in the act of giving, trust/dependance in the act of receiving. All this, of course, depends on the dynamics of the rest of the relationship. Anything, even the awesomely good, can be taken to bad ends by the Patriarchy.

  26. flewellyn

    This may only serve as a data point, but as a male, I do not like receiving blowjobs. Mostly because of the teeth thing, but also because I feel it’s unfair for me to expect a woman to orally pleasure me if I can’t reciprocate (and I can’t).

    I don’t understand why so many guys are so gung-ho about them. It seems so…dull.

  27. yankee transplant

    There comes a point when spitting one’s water all over the computer becomes hazardous. I believe I reached that point while reading this post, Twisty. Rock on!

  28. Brooklynite

    No, the act itself, apart from any emotional content isn’t fun–after all, it’s not like ppl go around sucking on–I can’t think of a neutral object, but anyway, a phallic object of some sort–just as a hobby.

    Yeah, but we don’t go around smushing our mouths against mouth-shaped objects, either, and plenty of people seem to find kissing fun.

    I like kissing and licking and sucking. I like it because it’s fun for the person I’m doing it with, and I like it because it’s fun for me. Why would someone want a cock in his or her mouth? Might as well ask why someone would want a tongue in his or her mouth, or an earlobe, or a nipple.

    Without shame the man I like knows and avows the deliciousness of his sex. Without shame the woman I like knows and avows hers.

  29. hedonistic

    Uh, bi girl checking in? Girls are definitely more fun, but also more individualistic and therefore trickier to please, and more tiring. (Men? Whoop! And it’s over!)

    Once upon a time I was given an opportunity to partake in a very pleasuraable but oh-so-illegal mind-altering substance. That was the night I discovered my lips were the most sensitive part of my body. Yup, even more sensitive than my clitoris (and believe me, I checked!). It blew my mind, but the next day, I thought, HUH. That explains a LOT! I don’t know if this makes me some kind of a mutant or what. Just know that women like us do exist.

    As mentioned above by two others, if you want to enjoy men more, maintin complete control of the event. Don’t even let him touch the top of your head. Not to suggest anyone should do something they don’t like, but for those quiet lurkers out there who DO want to enjoy it more, it really does help.

    Actually, “maintain complete control of the event” is good advice when dealing with men at all, period.

  30. Red Queen

    As another person whose gone down on both boys and girls- girls are easier on the jaw but take longer. Boy’s will leave you with slightly numb lips while girls will leave you with a little raw spot on the underside of your tounge (where it scrapes your teeth).

    I love the ego trip I get when I make a boy’s (or girl’s)knees shake and leave him stuttering and stammering afterwards.

    As for anyone who would push down or pull hair during- I have their most sensitive object inbetween my teeth and am not afraid to bite if they get out of hand.

  31. thebewilderness

    I have always wondered about that, and also if sexual orientation were a question of choice would anyone choose men? On purpose?

  32. B. Dagger Lee

    “In the body’s ghetto
    never to go despising the asshole
    nor the useful shit that is our clean clue
    to what we need. Never to despise
    the clitoris in her least speech.
    Never to despise in myself what I have been taught
    to despise. Nor to despise the other.
    Not to despise the it. To make this relation
    with the it : to know that I am it.”
    –Muriel Rukeyser (“Despisals”)

  33. hedonistic

    I’d definitely choose lesbian, if I could. God knows I keep coming to this site, trying to talk myself into the switch. I hear there’s a free toaster involved?

  34. SingOut

    “Although, perhaps providing cunnilingus is less problemmatic than providing fellatio. Hmmm. Bisexuals where are you?! We need some experts!”

    I’ve done both, and I’m done with fellatio. Pushing something roughly the size of a cucumber repeatedly into my mouth for about as long as a guy thinks a bj ought to last, then, when the gag reflex is entirely stimulated, depositing a oddly-textured, foul-tasting wad of warm gook into my mouth — nuh, uh. I’m done.

    Cunnilingus, on the other hand, is warm and soft and wet and sweet.

    With the last fews guys I’ve dated, I’ve told them that I will discuss the possibility of giving them a bj, just as soon as they give a bj to another man, so they can fully understand what it is they’re asking of me. So far, no takers.

  35. Sam

    I feel it’s my duty to share the following information with as many women as possible. Granted I’ve heard it more when I was younger than my late 20s, but many women have bragged to me that they’ve been told by men they are the best blowjob givers ever.

    It’s a lie, a calculated lie intended to make you feel so proud of your magnificent cocksucking abilities that you eagerly wish to show them off again and again.

    How do I know it’s a lie? Because the first time I heard it at 16 I beemed with pride and wanted to remind my much older boyfriend just how precociously talented I was, and I was not a good blowjob giver at 16.

    After my teenage ears heard it from a few other, always older boyfriends (yeah, I thought I was real kool like that; dumbass) I caught on. A conversation years later with a male freind of mine confirmed the “Oh baby, you’re the bestest at that!” prick-licking trick.

  36. B. Dagger Lee

    Now see, I used both hands, lots of spit, and I really didn’t let anything go further back than my first molar. I was strictly a front of the mouth girl. And jizm just tasted like salty spit milk to me. But I did still go back to lesbopotamia, so perhaps I am no judge at all.

    IF you do sign up, hedonistic, make sure you sign up for the Drama-free interest-bearing account.

  37. saltyC

    I never liked getting oral sex either. I can’t stand the idea of all his nasty mouth germs invading my precious tooter.

  38. pippa

    Oh I was all ready to have my evening meal but I just popped here to check on Twisty….I fear I shall be going hungry tonight. Thanks for that then. (!) (ps. BJ = gross out.)

  39. schatze

    You say it’s an unrelated photo, but I’d just as soon practice on that Santa as on a banana. Not gonna happen.

  40. Mandos

    I have always wondered about that, and also if sexual orientation were a question of choice would anyone choose men? On purpose?

    Is this equivalent to suggesting that if sexual orientation were a question of choice, most men would be better off getting sex-change operations?

  41. Arianna

    Another girl who has done both checking in. I hate giving blowjobs but I rather like performing cunnilingus. Seconding Red Queen’s statement that women are easier on the jaw but take longer, though. For the record I consider myself about 60% straight, as I enjoy straight up p-v intercourse, as long as it’s in interesting positions, and my current partner is male. If anything should happen to this relationship, however, I’m probably moving over to lesbopotamia.

  42. Puffin

    Well, the “my lips are the most sensual part of my body” argument is thus far the most convincing pro-bj stance I’ve heard and I think that says a lot. I don’t know how many women would place their oral lips above other body parts when it comes to the experiencing of sexual pleasure, however. But hey, lucky for the dude who is getting a blow job from such a gal. More power to both of ya.

    As for the more predominant argument of “I like the way I can make his knees quiver by using my mouth” I have to ask, are you serious? That’s what is appealing about blow jobs to you? That you can make a guy weak in the knees by sucking his dick?

    Because here’s the thing – a hungry dog and a spoonful of peanut butter will do the same thing. A properly lubed “fleshlight” or vacuum cleaner hose will do the same thing. Hell, a strategically placed hot tub jet will DO THE EXACT SAME THING. Guys like women to think that blow jobs are more art than science because then women get all proud and empowered and shit and decide that giving guys head is the next best thing to owning your own cosmetics company. But let’s get real. You’re sucking what DOES amount to a “funk-filled Bratwurst” which nature designed to blow a load with most any kind of lubricated friction.

    Here’s what I think is going on. Women want to be valued and appreciated by men. Men like their dicks sucked. So, women engage in sucking dick and those who do not consider their mouths to be an erogenous zones convince themselves it’s pleasurable because it gives them so much “power.” And sadly, in this Patriarchal shithole world of ours, blow jobs are the equivalent of power for many women.

    But that doesn’t mean you have to swallow cum and tell us all it’s caviar. At best it’s something nice to do for a guy whom you care about. At worst, it’s another humiliating compromise of dignity that women do to please men and then tell each other how much they fucking love it and how damned empowering/pleasurable it is.

  43. Mandos

    After Puffin’s post, I’d say it’s time to sit back and break out the fake microwavable popcorn!

  44. Pony

    I just come for the articles.

  45. grrr kitty

    I’m with tuckova — making your partner happy is good. Otherwise, I can’t see much point to the ol’ two-person sexual hokey-pokey, because playing with my own toys is much more direct and less complicated.

  46. shannon w.

    I don’t think blowjobs are empowering, anymore than french kissing is empowering. It’s not my favorite sexual act ever, but just as long as the guy isn’t a jerk(keep your penis still or you are a terrible person) I’m ok with it.

  47. saltyC

    If only Monica Lewinsky could have read this thread (dot dot dot)

  48. Bantam

    If Twisty gets a big bang out of impassioned arguments defending blowjobs, then impassioned arguments she shall have. I posit that oral sex (including the dreaded bj) is inherently detrimental to the Patriarchy.

    Now, most women have the misfortune to be straight (dammit!) and therefore have relationships with men (sigh.) So we’re stuck having some kind of sex with the bratwurst-wielders. I would argue that oral sex is more anti-Patriarchy than intercourse for two reasons:

    1. Isn’t it true that more women orgasm from oral sex than intercourse? I think I read that somewhere, and I tried to look it up, but I couldn’t come up with a search term that resulted in statistics rather than, um, other things.

    2. Oral sex doesn’t result in pregnancy, the burden of which falls pretty much entirely on women, and which is getting harder to take care of, with all the godbags in charge.

    Of course, a world replete with cunnilingus and lacking in fellatio might suit some, but since a relationship is a partnership, and some of us actually like these funk-producers we’re partnered with, I’d say that reciprocal oral sex is the way to go.

    Up with blow jobs! Down with patriarchy!

  49. Wolke

    I agree with Bitch PhD and with Brooklynite, why should blow jobs naturally be unpleasant? If both parties choose to do it and how to do it – just as sex should be generally – where’s the difference to any other form of caressing?

    “I have always wondered about that, and also if sexual orientation were a question of choice would anyone choose men? On purpose?”

    The question you’re asking is quite offending. You’re suggesting that if no-one were fixed on men by nature, no-one may find men loveable. Hello??

    If one wasn’t born with a sexual orientation, why would one choose an orientation in the first place? It would be perfectly sufficing to choose individuals to love/have sex.

  50. Whitters

    I have to say, I actually like giving blowjobs. Sure, it’s not my favorite hobby or anything, but I do like it. (Of course, I don’t have a gag reflex at all, so that might help.)

    I’m surprised Flea didn’t mention the simplest, tried-and-true advice for surpassing a gag reflex while deep-throating. For anyone who’s interested, here it is: before going down on a guy, spray your throat with some of that sore-throat spray. It will numb your throat so, no gaggy.

    You’re welcome. Heh.

  51. slade

    Shit, now you’ve ruined bratwursts for me.

  52. Whitters

    Oops, forgot to add this.

    I have always wondered about that, and also if sexual orientation were a question of choice would anyone choose men? On purpose?

    As a bisexual female, I must say that–although I enjoy both–I actually prefer giving blowjobs to performing cunnilingus.

  53. saltyC

    won’t the chloraseptic make the thingy numb too?

  54. antelope

    BJ’s on their own, done in whatever position is most comfortable for you, are not a big turn-on, but they are kind of fun, in the same way that popsicles are basically about having fun with your mouth and not about being a tasty treat. And 69 is really fun with someone you like – in that case I’m usually the one to just give up & focus on my own pleasure first, and nobody has ever had a problem with that (or they’ve never told me so, anyway).

    The tip-off on what BJ’s are really about for a lot of guys, though, is the ones who want you to also make eye contact while doing it. What the hell?! I’ve seen porn photos where the woman is really rolling her eyes towards the viewer of the photo, not the bratwurst-wielder, and I’m sure it’s these pics that make men think it’s somehow sexy to see your eyes at the same time. And what that’s about is you acknowledging his dominance, no question. Any sort of head grabbing is right out, but for a little while there I thought the request for eye-rolling was a quirk I could tolerate. Blech, never again.

  55. Whitters

    won’t the chloraseptic make the thingy numb too?

    I personally haven’t tried this trick, since I don’t have a gag reflex, but my guess is that to counter this potential side effect, the guy would wear a condom, or the woman (or man) would wait a few minutes after spraying the chloraseptic so that it would “soak in” and therefore have less of a chance of numbing the fella’s winkie.

  56. Mollie

    I guess it just depends on the person. A lousy lay is a lousy lay no matter what gender they are. I would have answered that I didn’t like giving guys head in my younger days,but what a difference a few years and a few skilled lovers makes. To me, hetero foreplay includes oral for both or it’s not really foreplay. 69 especially, both of you making the other hotter and wetter so that when you finally do join, it’s that much better.

    But for you Twisty, I’ll admit, girls are much more fun to give head to. It’s more complicated/rewarding, there’s more sweet spots and more creative opportunities. There’s things you can do with a clit that just can’t happen with a bratwurst.

  57. Metal Prophet

    While I don’t think fellatio is inherently degrading, I think that porn has given it a lot of bad connotations which is why I think a lot of guys like getting head. Well, that and it feels good. I have no insights as to why a woman might actually enjoy fellating a man, but one female friend of mine said that she enjoyed the intimacy of the whole thing. And to buff my credentials as a super-groovy sensitive liberal pro-feminist dude, I’ve never actually asked for oral sex. I’d like my free cookie sent in the mail, thank you.

  58. doloreshaze

    Hm. I’m a muffdiver and I enjoy going down on the wifey’s strap-on quite a bit, as does she. Does that count? Is it still fucking gross if said head-receiving appliance doesn’t get sweaty or squirt anything? Am I still a submissive sexbot? Fingers crossed that the answer is yes.

  59. thebewilderness

    It was not until after I struck the blame button that I realized the astonishing number of ways in which my remark could be misunderstood. It was an idle thought from an idle brain. I was just wondering about how the patriarchy promotes what is attractive and desirable.

  60. hexyhex

    *waves hands* Another bi girl here. One that quite likes giving head, to people of either gender. It should be said, though, that some people are just not pleasant to go down on. I’ve encountered this with both men and women, and it’s often a behaviour thing.

    I’m a bit of an aberrant example, though, as I was gay for quite some time before I discovered I liked boys as well. It just seemed natural to me to keep using my mouth and hands as much with boys as I did with girls. There’s also the fact that in PIV sex, I tend to get… erm… very easily carried away. It’s easier for me to concentrate on pleasuring my partner (which, frankly, we should both/all be doing at at least SOME point in the act) if I’m not receiving stimulation myself.

    I think something that’s being missed a lot is something that the advice person pointed out… “giving head” and “deep throating” are two very different things. Licking, kissing and sucking any part of my partner’s clean, sexy body is awesome. Ramming things into the back of my throat, even in the absence of a strong gag reflex, is not on. It’s also a really good way to ensure you won’t be in my bed again.

    Heh. This thread cracks me up. :)

  61. flea1

    That’s it. You are totally doing the next e-mailbag.

  62. Jodie

    I’m with tuckova; I like to please and be pleased by my partner. Not only that, but I was a thumbsucker into my teens, so maybe it seemed less weird to me than to people who weren’t.

  63. TP

    One of the big problems I have with blow jobs is there is no eye contact and little body contact and it’s just a very unintimate feeling thing. So the whole porn convention of women looking up at men is actually much nicer to my mind than the sight of the top of a woman’s head bobbing up and down. The visual needs of men in sex are a very controversial issue on a feminist website, though. But to look into the eyes of someone you love during any sex act is much better.

    I had to laugh at all the posts about how fast blow jobs are. Even as a teenager it took forever for me to climax with a woman’s mouth. It was totally embarrassing back then, too. It took me a while to figure out that I wasn’t too crazy about blowjobs.

  64. KMTBERRY

    Has anyone tried Peach Creek Farm German Sausage? It’s DELICIOUS !!! Seriously.
    Moving on: If you are IN LOVE with somebody, it’s ALL F*U*N. Love is crazy.

    The only DISGUSTING thing about giving head is giving head to someone you don’t WANT to give head to. Now that might be everybody, or not. If you are a lesbian, why of COURSE that would be all MEN. But if you are IN LOVE with a man, and just seeing him across the room makes your heart shudder, and all that jive, it isn’t disgusting.

    I myself am not a huge fan of the cumming in your mouth thing. It’s not the worst thing ever, but I would put it on a par with having someone spit a loogy in your mouth. It’s not the same as the saliva traded in Kissing. There is a LOT more of it. Many men in my experience seem to feel that there is some kind of emotional issue at stake with the swallowing cum thing as opposed to spitting it out. Sometimes they seem to feel quite emotional about it. Men?

    Would ANYONE shoose to be with a man if they weren’t predisposed to desire them? Well SOME men. There are a handful of TOTALLY KICK ASS guys OUT THERE !! An Entire Handful !! I think the majority of women would prefer to be with a woman, if they had a choice about who to desire, though. (Who among you hasn’t dreamt of how wonderful it would be to have a wife?) My Mom used to ask me very seriously if I were a Lesbian, and I would seriously answer, “Mom, If i EVER fall in LOVE with a Woman, believe me I’d switch in an instant. Because it would be SO MUCH EASIER!! (I realize that this is a generalization based in ignorance. Might not be ANY easier!). But something about our genes or early socialization determines who we fall in love with. ALthough I know many people who have fallen in love with both men and women.

  65. Crys_T

    “Men? Whoop! And it’s over!”

    !!!! You evidently haven’t done some of the guys I have. The nightmare of blowjobs that just go on and on and on with no end in sight….makes my jaw sore just thinking about it. (this is a very good reason never to go down on a guy who’s had a lot to drink)

    IMO, whether or not giving blowjobs is disgusting depends entirely on the guy. Firstly, of course, is his level of personal hygiene. Then there’s the fact that some people’s individual natural smells are sensual and others are nauseating, regardless of actual cleanliness. And, as many have already said, there’s the guy’s personality.

    In the past 15 years, I’ve given precious few blowjobs, so I’d never say they were especially important or pleasurable for me. But every once in a while, when I’m in the right mood, it is kind of fun to do.

  66. Ms Kate

    I started learning to give head as reciprocation for incredible oral pussy attention. I discovered that I like it as long as it is all under my control. I find it erotic to work the joystick for power and control if nothing else. There are also scent and firmness and other response clues I enjoy.

    The porn industry has most certainly stupidified things to the nth degree. Who wants that in your face? Who wants that down your throat? Honestly. You don’t have to do that kind of stuff if you don’t like to in order to give rather naughty pleasure to your companion. Just like a giant clit, you can nibble, tip suck, lick, blow air, long stroke, short stroke, fast, slow, ice, warm coffee. I think it is all more fun that way – for both man and partner – than that stupid porn crap.

    I seem to remember a rather handy thread on Hipmama on “saucy tips” for such activities. What distinguished it was the utter lack of “show” activity seen on film.

  67. emjaybee

    I guess I’ll have to humor Twisty though I can’t give an impassioned defense. I like giving ‘em, not cause I think I am the BJ Queen, but because they just aren’t that difficult (women would be a lot more work) and because it’s fun in a naughty sexy way. I have seen very little porn so I haven’t seen the whole “push the woman’s head while she’s doing it” thing. Never had a partner try that with me, and they would only have done it once.

    What amuses me about BJs the most is how many articles in Cosmo about them are titled “Stunning New Sex Tricks to Make Him Weak!” and they all treat BJs like something exotic that was just invented by a researcher from the Sexomatology Institute.

  68. Esme

    I’m had my experiences with blowjobs be very very very bad. My initial impression towards them, before I ever really found feminism or given a blowjob, was that it degraded me as a woman to do so. Seeing as I was a teenager, this didn’t make my boyfriends too terribly happy. After 3 months of hardcore emotional manipulation by one of them, I did it. And I hated it. I’ve also had guys touch my head or my hair during it or start moving their pelvises, at which point I have told them that it’s not acceptable and if they didn’t then get it, I stopped entirely.

    However, in a different context, say, a boyfriend who never asked for one, hinted that he wanted one, and outright declared initially that he disliked receiving them because of traumatic experiences with them, I found that I could actually enjoy providing them, because it’s a time when I can enjoy the pleasure I’m providing for someone else. It may be some sort of patriarchal neurosis, but I get off best when providing pleasure to a grateful partner, male or female while not receiving anything simultaneously. Plus there’s just something about moaning.

  69. ozma

    T, are you a master at absurdist baiting or what? Why oh why don’t I have dinner parties just so you can come to them? I’m sorry you don’t drink because I can’t imagine anything more fun than you in a room full of wasted people you have provoked into argument.

    I can’t prove that people enjoy sucking on penises but do remember that people enjoy eating larvae and grasshoppers (both are actually sort of good). Haggis, blood sausage, calves brains. Etc. So there’s precedent.

    Some evidence to this effect:

    http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/cat_steve_dont_eat_it.php

  70. Wolke

    “Here’s what I think is going on. Women want to be valued and appreciated by men. Men like their dicks sucked. So, women engage in sucking dick and those who do not consider their mouths to be an erogenous zones convince themselves it’s pleasurable because it gives them so much “power.” And sadly, in this Patriarchal shithole world of ours, blow jobs are the equivalent of power for many women.”

    Sadly, what you’re saying is probably true for some (or many) women. If you believe women’s magazines, there’s even empowerment in stripping for your man. Personally, I don’t give head because I like to make my boyfriend weak or because I enjoy the power, but simply because I like to. He doesn’t ask for it, I do it solely for my own pleasure, although his is very welcome, of course. Now I am somewhat orally fixated but I don’t see why it should be so extraordinary for a men-loving person to enjoy caressing a penis.

    It is unfortunate that blow jobs have a reputation of being ultimately degrading to the woman because of how they are presented in porn. But I think some men find cunnilingus degrading, as well. Oral sex is widely seen as a practice that’s only enjoyable for the receiver and therefore tends to reduce the giver to a servant. In addition many straight people don’t seem to find their partners’ genitals pleasant enough to enjoy licking/sucking them, what with all that derogatory bratwurst or fishy smell talk. Weird indeed.

  71. Loosely Twisted

    Wow, what an interesting topic. :)

    I don’t particularly like giving head. Everyone once in awhile i will get a burr to do it. And I enjoy it on those occasions. But that’s far and few in between. I had more then a few bad experiences with guys, trying/succeeding in manipulating me to do it. I have a gag reflex and they enjoyed grabbing my head and forcing me.

    I bit one guy.. lol Yeah that didn’t go over too well. So, if he DOES want one, it’s no moving, no weird tricks and NO touching my head or hair. And no I will not look you in your eye, this isn’t some kind of power trip. (cause yeah they wanted that and it made me feel so denigrated)

    I like cuninglingus is kewl with the same rules. I enjoy that more then giving head. It’s so much easier and I love making her squirm. That feels good, and turns me on.

    It’s hard for me to recieve it. I don’t like being on the recieving end unless they can convince me they aren’t denigrating themselves. I don’t like the power play that sometimes happens when you give oral sex. So it has to be pure enjoyment and of the moment.

    69 I am ruined on, my ex … was skanky and I can’t ever do that again, I can’t get that image out of my mind .. *shivers* nope, nope..

    omg i have to go wash my brain now.
    I blame the patriarchy for that one misstep!!

  72. Puffin

    Why do I get that feeling reading all this like I always did in junior high when my fellow pre-teen girlfriends were dieting and spent the lunch hour telling me at length why rice cakes are sooooo good and how they really enjoy eating them and it’s because they have a crunchy rice fixation which may be weird but gosh, stale puffed rice is like a fucking party in their mouths!

    Because after 70 some odd comments, many? most? enough of which are from het or bi women extolling the inherent personal gratification of blowing men, well you can just put in my place. Never let another dude complain that the Internet needs to devote more bandwidth to the enthusiastic promotion of women sucking cock. If it can happen here, which it has, it can happen anywhere else, which it does. And never let me hope that feminists can consistently place their own personal desire and choices within the context of women’s overall socialization as sexbots so that they might consider why telling anyone and everyone how much you love sucking cock (so it can’t be that degrading if I like it!) both is and is not the Whole Entire Point.

    So I guess I’ll just say, yay for bjs! Allowing women with oral fixations to get off everywhere.

  73. saltyC

    Yay Puffin! Seems women with oral gratification are happier in this culture where the rigor is de rigeur.

    PS anybody ever contract genital herpes in their mouth? I have had really painful sores under my toungue and I wonder if that’s what it was. How can you tell if a willy is infected? You can’t.

  74. Ms Kate

    Puffin, anyone who universalizes their experiences feeds the patriarchy, not fights it.

    We all know and understand that many women service men with oral sexual favors they dislike or find ungratifying for reasons of social status and power and that, well, sucks. But I have yet to see a SINGLE post on this thread that says “I like them so you have to like giving them too”. I have, however, seen several “well I find it degrading so all of you MUST be degraded even if you like them”. Bullshit.

    I never spent any time with the ricecake dieters in high school. But I wasn’t one of those “well, I can’t like rice cakes because that would make me one of the dieters” types either. I’m an independent woman. I’ll eat rice cakes when I’m hungry for them (with peanutbutter and honey, thank you). I’ll give blow jobs if I damn well please (but not if don’t want to), and I’ll confront both oppressive requirements and reactionary pronouncements upon my supposed categorical degradation wherever I see fit.

  75. larkspur

    I’m with tuckova, too.

    A lot of it is about context, too. The idea of a blowjob as the step between a simple goodnight kiss and actually fucking (a sort of “compromise”) makes me shudder. The idea of submitting to a hand pushing down on my head, ick.

    The idea of a blowjob taking “forever”, with the lockjaw and boredom…uh, no, include me out. If I’m giving someone head, it’s a someone to whom I can easily and comfortably say, “‘Kay, let’s change up. My jaw’s getting tired”; the same thing with someone whose nether bits are a bit ripe: “Dude [or dudette]! Go wash up. You’ve been running around all day and you need to freshen up.”

    I remember a long-term guyfriend, one of the elite few I’ve ever bestowed BJs on, and I remember being curious about doing it to him the first time. We were in bed, one of the first several times, and I said something like, “Hey, let me do you for a little while,” and he gaped at me, his face lighting up like he’d never expected something like that. I remember a time after that, when I didn’t want to fuck but wanted to BJ him instead, and he expressed curiosity about the taste. I told him it’d never be one of Baskin Robbins’ 31 flavors, but that it wasn’t like a *problem*, and he said, “I’d better find out for myself”, so immediately after the event, I scooted up and transferred it from my mouth to his. Highlarious. “Oh, yuck!” he choked. “That’s disgusting.” I laughed at him, saying, “You lightweight.”

    I can’t imagine being intimate with someone who refused to reciprocate whole heartedly. This guyfriend luxuriates in the muff dive, adores it, revels in it. Myself, on him: there are a lot of the sensations that I like, the smoothness, the changes in arousal, the awareness that my friend isn’t thinking of anything else, that his whole attention is right here, right now. Sure, I’d like it if penises spouted lavender water or Perrier instead of the less fragrant jizm, but whatever. This person is my dear friend. The BJs occur in the context of good friend-ness, coziness, pleasure, long acquaintance.

    Also, don’t do this without asking first, but try “pasting” one of those dissolvable breath strips on his penis. Minty, tingly fun! Don’t do this to cover body odor, because the combined scents aren’t good. But it’s fun, kind of like sexual decoupage or performance art. Also, you can actually blow on the strip for a cool rush, and to authenticate the event as an official blowjob.

    But never, ever do anything unless you really want to.

    I hope I don’t regret posting this.

  76. CafeSiren

    Puffin, I understand your opinion that those of us who enjoy (to whatever degree) giving head (to whichever sex?) may be suffering from Stockholm syndrome. I don’t think anyone wants to see this degenerate into the kind of thing that went on when our hostess posted on the four-letter Abbreviation For A Set Of Sex Practices That Will Not Be Named.

    But let me advance a thesis: that empathy with your partner (while respecting your own boundaries) is at the core of a satisfying, non-exploitative sexual encounter. Corrolary to that thesis: if said partner does not show a similar empathy for you, the encounter is exploitative.

    Head can be part of that. Or not.

  77. Arianna

    Ms Kate, seconded on ricecakes with peanut butter and honey. They’re fabulous. I love ricecakes because they don’t overpower the peanut-butter-and-honey deliciousness the way bread does, as I only really like 12 grain bread.

  78. Puffin

    My issue is not one of needing women to see blow jobs as degrading, Ms Kate. A woman performing oral sex on a man is not, in and of itself, degrading at all in my mind. My issue is the attitude with which women defend such an act as the be-all and end-all of their own sexuality and the vehemence with which they (and you too, apparently) “confront reactionary pronouncements upon [your] supposed categorical degradation” with nary a consideration as to how women’s sexuality on the whole is defined vis a vis men’s enjoyment and how blow jobs are the quintessential non-reciprocal manifestation of Man as Sexually Serviced and woman as yet another moist hole to be filled with man meat and how women are, as a class, socialized to not expect much more than to be happiest while making men happy.

    The defensive tone of your post, Ms Kate, speaks to exactly that louder than anything I could say, however. If it really were simply just about your choice to give a blow job (or eat a rice cake for that matter) whenever you damn well pleased, I don’t think you’d need to take the time to straightforwardly TELL me you’re an independent woman. As if such a thing even existed.

  79. nursepam

    LMAO! Tried it. Didn’t like it. Found a woman. The rest is history ;^)

  80. MissPrism

    I did write a little paragraph about why I like’em, but decided against posting it in a public place lest I get unsolicited emails from pervs (I almost used the word “provoke” there. See how the patriarctacles entwine us).

    This may put me off it for a while, though:
    http://pandagon.net/2006/06/15/snitchens-rhapsodizes-on-his-love-for-the-cock-sucker/
    Ugh.

  81. Pony

    The comments here are soooo fascinating. Geez Twisty can really land it eh?

    I’ve always found the biggest turn on is a man’s well developed thighs. Climbers and hockey players have great thighs. So do swimmers. Runners and cyclists are too stringy.

    A more tactile turn on for me is a guy sucking my nipples while he fingers me.

    I’m a blow job virgin. Giving or getting. I think that has more to do with my generation/age than any decided preference. The opportunity has not presented itself.

  82. jjg

    Loved this:

    >Up with blow jobs! Down with patriarchy!

    Right on.

  83. TheGlimmering

    Do you know how reassuring it feels to find a hive of women admitting oral sex is not the cat’s meow? Actually, if it were not for this specific individual male I love, I’ve no doubt I’d be a lesbian. My friends might be men, but I’m simply not attracted to them, even the beautiful ones don’t move me, there’s just not the intellectual frission I have with my partner and with women which would lead to some erotic happenings if I weren’t committed to said partner. Sex itself is pleasant, just not that all-consuming. We’ve an understanding whereby mutually pleasurable piv sex is the only sex expected, anything besides is the result of a generous whim. Sometimes I feel like flirting with some fellatio in the spirit of exploration, little different from kissing his shoulder or his neck. Maybe once or twice I’ve felt like seeing oral sex through, but invariably I think of it as a burden and the thought that I might be expected to continue inhibits me from any exploration at all most of the time. Deep throating is right there with anal sex: never going to happen. He never considers reciprocating, and given some rows we’ve had in the past over it, I’d feel uncomfortable if he tried. Generally, we talk for a bit after sex and that’s it, any extra help I need to cum arrives courtesy of a few toys he bought me at my request. Actually, I don’t think he fully realizes that straight sex doesn’t see me through the way it does him, but considering it doesn’t require any special effort on my part to get him off, I don’t pursue extra effort on his. I can handle myself quite nicely with the toys. Like many decent men, he genuinely cares about my satisfaction, but he’s clueless. Maybe that’s part of why I don’t feel I “owe” my partner oral sex.

  84. TP

    The emotional issue of whether a woman swallows your come is interesting to me. Surely there’s a lot of different things coming into play here, so my musings, even if I slip up and start implying they are universal, are strictly based on my own experiences.

    When I was young and just starting out there was no hint from the few girls I knew that a blow job meant anything but sucking until you had an orgasm and swallowing it. It wasn’t really discussed.

    My sperm didn’t seem disgusting to me, either. It seems yeasty. So I couldn’t imagine why it would be a problem. It always seemed very clean to me. I could see how, if I was gay, it might be a sexy thing to eat. I tasted it but I never really thought it would be seemly to eat it all the time since it wasn’t my personal sexual thrill.

    Soon enough I finally met a woman who claimed she had to spit it out because she claimed it upset her stomach. I found that a little hard to believe but I didn’t mind too much. It did make me feel, for the first time, like there was something wrong with sperm, though. Back then the whole pornographic spewing goops of sperm on women’s faces wasn’t as codified and fetishized yet. So I didn’t have the disgusting visual cues of gross sperm in my head I have today, either.

    Since then it has been pretty common for women to not swallow my sperm, and I’m used to it. I just don’t like blow jobs that much anyway so why should I care? It’s embarrassing how long it takes to get off, the teeth and palate bother me, it seems very detached and devoid of intimacy, and so forth.

    But still, the idea that there’s something wrong with my sperm, that a woman is offended by it – my poisonous disgusting sperm – is of course kind of a sexual rejection, and certainly a judgement. Turning it around to that ‘disgusting pussy will make me sick if I eat it’ sounds pretty bad, doesn’t it?

    But there is something terribly wrong with sperm. It makes babies, and the whole act of sex really kind of tends to get around to the whole making babies thing whenever it’s a hetero encounter. So even though I started out with feelings of affection and healthiness about my sperm now, unfortunately, I feel more like it’s something distasteful and dangerous, thanks to the patriarchy that ruins the natural ideas of sex and replaces them with unnatural ideas of lustful longing for sex objects to submit to the excesses of violent and uncontrollable desire aroused by the constant titillation in the media and culture.

    Strange that a substance that is so fresh, that comes from deep inside us, that is as clean as blood, cleaner by far than any other excretion we have, can come to be so despised and rendered so disgusting. What do I blame?

  85. SingOut

    TP–
    Blame the stimulation of the gag reflex that happened before the deposit of semen. And blame the patriarchy.

  86. SingOut

    Strange that a substance that is so fresh, that comes from deep inside us, that is as clean as blood, cleaner by far than any other excretion we have, can come to be so despised and rendered so disgusting.

    Do you expect your sexual partners to swallow your other bodily fluids?

  87. Delphyne

    Golly, some people will take any excuse to talk about their sex lives.

    I didn’t think I was going to hear about yeasty sperm on a feminist blog, but there you go. I blame the patriarchy.

  88. Pony

    TP:

    Your cum is not clean: it has some of every drug you take. So if you’re taking anti-depressants, or testosterone, or a statin, your girl gets it too.

  89. grrr kitty

    where else in the known ‘verse could you find a discussion where bjs are likened unto rice cakes?

  90. Pony

    Delphyne

    I think the spinster aunt told us she has other things to do, and we should just go and play with ourselves for a bit.

  91. Wolke

    “My issue is the attitude with which women defend such an act as the be-all and end-all of their own sexuality and the vehemence with which they (and you too, apparently) “confront reactionary pronouncements upon [your] supposed categorical degradation” (…)”

    That’s funny because I have the impression that it’s you who’s getting all hyper and exaggerating. When did anyone of the commenters “defend such an act as the be-all and end-all of their own sexuality”? All the “defenders” were saying is that sucking dick can be a quite ok thing to do and in fact pleasureable for the giver under certain circumstances.

    “And never let me hope that feminists can consistently place their own personal desire and choices within the context of women’s overall socialization as sexbots so that they might consider why telling anyone and everyone how much you love sucking cock (so it can’t be that degrading if I like it!) both is and is not the Whole Entire Point.”

    Are you suggesting that because some men enjoy having power over or even humiliating a woman when given head, women in general shouldn’t suck dick or at least not talk about it? What about intercourse with the man on top, is that allowed?

    “…with nary a consideration as to how women’s sexuality on the whole is defined vis a vis men’s enjoyment and how blow jobs are the quintessential non-reciprocal manifestation of Man as Sexually Serviced and woman as yet another moist hole to be filled with man meat and how women are, as a class, socialized to not expect much more than to be happiest while making men happy.”

    Would ANY heterosexual practice be ok, at all, since most of them involve man meat entering some moist hole and/or men’s enjoyment? If women’s pleasure can’t convince you of the acceptability of any of it, what can?

    Your comments apply much better to anal intercourse, I would say. There’s just no way I can imagine that to be pleasurable to a woman who doesn’t fetishize submission.

  92. hedonistic

    Anal? Nooooooo . . . don’t start!

    Seems all Twisty needs to do is posit something – anything – about (insert controversial sex act) and we’re off to the races!!!!!!

  93. Pony

    Hedonistic

    No on the beastiality. Definite no.

  94. Brooklynite

    Never let another dude complain that the Internet needs to devote more bandwidth to the enthusiastic promotion of women sucking cock. If it can happen here, which it has, it can happen anywhere else, which it does.

    Seems to me like your quarrel is rightly with Twisty — she’s the one who yelled, “Hey, cocksuckers! Represent!”

  95. Puffin

    Would ANY heterosexual practice be ok, at all, since most of them involve man meat entering some moist hole and/or men’s enjoyment?

    Not without an understanding that “any heterosexual practice” will have in implicitly unfair power imbalance given that men will always be one up on the woman whose hole(s) they are entering. Such is life under Patriarchy. Give head all you want to. Love it, seek it out, orgasm to the immense please of having a dick throb in your mouth. It’s the whole, “I love it! Can’t live without it! I have an oral fixation! I’d be a lesbian but I just can’t get enough of sucking cock!” that I find a bit trying. That’s not to say that every post here has prompted such a reaction but just women’s defense of sexual servitude in general and the idea that women write in to sexperts asking for advice on how to better deep-throat cock that gets my knickers in a twist.

    And I do apologize that I employ hyperbole so often. It’s a habit that’s been hard to break. But I should try harder so what is really just my (ab)use of a literary device is not constantly construed as deliberate exaggeration and over-generalization. I suppose few can appreciate that when I said “be-all and end-all” I don’t literally mean “be-all and end-all” and for what it’s worth when I said “best thing next to owning your own cosmetics company” I didn’t literally mean “best thing next to owning your own cosmetics company.” Oh, and “sexbot” does not literally mean “sex robot” but given that this is Twisty’s coinage, you should really ask her.

    What else have I missed? Let me know, Wolke, will ya?

  96. robin

    Twisty is a kind and good Twisty – to cheer and distract us in face of her disquieting previous post, she threw us this bone to gnaw on (sorry, had to..), as Pony implies.
    And sure enough we’re all romping around tugging and yanking on it like a bunch of pups!

    As for Pony’s other comment about “ingredients”- ooooh, hadn’t considered that before. Sobering, that.

  97. saltyC

    Wolke, I think you might better appreciate the points Puffin was making if you re-read the jiz-suck cheerleading posts and substitute anal for oral.

  98. saltyC

    hedonistic, good point.

    Bjs are only controversial among radical feminists

    But I want to add, in the mainstream, they are rather expected of a good wife/girlfriend.

    An extremely conformist relative of my baby (homemaker, churchgoer, etc.) who forwards emails sent me one of “funny things kids say in public” one of them: a young child says “If you don’t buy me that I’ll tell grandma you kissed daddy’s pee-pee” How embarrassing!

  99. Wolke

    saltyC, what cheerleading posts?

    “Not without an understanding that “any heterosexual practice” will have in implicitly unfair power imbalance given that men will always be one up on the woman whose hole(s) they are entering.”

    What makes you think that the women posting here lack that understanding?

    The rest of your post I’ll take as another hyperbole of yours that I cannot know what exactly it’s supposed to say, since you prefer literary device to differentiated argumentation.
    Btw, I too can’t stand the servitude of women asking for advice on how to perform better blow jobs. However if there was servitude in one of the postings here, I must have missed it.

  100. saltyC

    I wish there were an edit button. On my last post the “But I want to add” should go after the first line.

    It looks like I’m saying hedonstic made a point, which actually I was adding.

  101. FamousSovietAthlete

    Wow, MissPrism! The late Christopher Hitchens sure does suck.

  102. katheburt

    OOOOh it’s oral sex week in the blogerhood! What fun. “Older” here, and I *am* older, too. But I like oral sex, both to and from. And cocks? *So* not bratwurst, although I like bratwurst too.

    Seriously Twisty, you did already know that some of your readers are heterosexual, didn’t you? But we love you just the same. Now, go and think about something you actually *like,* cause it will help boost your immunity.

  103. hedonistic

    I so love Natalie Dee . . .

    http://www.nataliedee.com/061106/boner-con-boner-reprise.jpg

  104. hedonistic

    OK, it’s weird, but I can’t stop laughing . . .

    http://www.nataliedee.com/121205/sorry-i-dont-touch-green-ones.jpg

  105. hedonistic

    http://www.nataliedee.com/061305/the-elusive-borgasm.jpg

    OK this is the last one! I swear!!!

  106. hedonistic

    http://www.nataliedee.com/052105/no-dont-eat-it.jpg

    OK, so I lied. I’m not drunk. Really.

  107. Ms Kate

    Puffin, the opposite of what patriarchy say it wants isn’t freedom.

    If you think people here are trumpeting bjs as the be all/end all of their sexuality, I think you need to learn how to read. They are simply a part of play for some, but not all. It is pretty clear to me, on review, that most who enjoy giving them here are simply pointing out that what Twisty thinks is not universal experience, not that they live to suck.

    If your armchair internet psychotron reads that as “defensive”, it is: I will NOT be told how to be a feminist, because I don’t buy anyone’s hierarchy.

  108. jje0000007

    I’m thinking that if dudes could have bouche or bum sex with themselves, then they would. What a bunch of rice cake munchers, eh? I guess those acts would be called self-abuse and, for that, I blame the patriarchy. I think we can all agree that coercion, aggression and disrespect are bad things…? Does this mean I have to stop enjoying having my nipples pinched aggressively? My lover can coerce me into performing various acts by using such pinches. Strangers would be shown disrespect, in kind, if they tried the same. Life is so complicated.

    The quality of the responses here have really gone down and I’d have to say that this “discussion” blows. Whether you swallow or spit you will gag at the thoughts, here. This comment sucks, too.

  109. thebewilderness

    Hedonisty,
    After reading the miscreant Snitchens ode to soft moist mouth caves, my skin was crawling. Thank you for the antidote provided in the link.

  110. Hogan

    That’s the most overdressed, overaccessorized garden gnome I’ve ever seen.

  111. Ellasgrannie

    Snitchens is repulsive regardless of his stand on sex or any other topic. Ew.

    As for sex, and oral sex specifically, I wonder why the same sex act with one individual is not the same as with another one. I have enjoyed oral sex performed on myself with no orgasm, and on other occassions cannot stand the level of sensitivity.

    Performing oral sex can be pleasurable or tedious.

    My husband and I for some unexplained reason have always had the best sex and in the most simple ways.

    Trust matters I think. Finding compatibility is also a real issue for couples.

  112. Sam

    “If you don’t buy me that I’ll tell grandma you kissed daddy’s pee-pee”

    How does a young child pick up that such a thing is ‘wrong’ enough to be mommy blackmail material? I know who I’m blaming.

  113. ykcir

    Quim pro quo.

  114. emma goldman

    Wow–who even knew that oral sex was so controversial? Oh; wait; that impeachment thing. I guess I don’t particularly categorize these things–touching body parts in ways that make the other person(s) eyes roll is a good thing, and it’s especially fun with someone whose idea of a good time is to provide me with so many orgasms that the space-time continuum warps and bends.

  115. bitchphd

    women defend such an act as the be-all and end-all of their own sexuality

    ??? No one here is saying this is the be-all and end-all of our own sexuality. Those of us who are saying, yes, blow jobs can be enjoyable, are just saying, “yes, blow jobs can be enjoyable.” In what sense does that translate to “the be-all and end-all” of anything?

    And in fact some of us like rice cakes sometimes too. Even without peanut butter on them. They are crunchy and pleasant. Liking rice cakes does not mean that one does not also like ice cream, or bacon, or whatever other “unfeminine” food people think we should like in order to prove we’re not “sex bots.”

    Jeez. Gimme a break.

  116. Sophist

    The defensive tone of your post, Ms Kate, speaks to exactly that louder than anything I could say, however.

    Hey, asshole, you went on the offensive from post one:

    Be there a woman with soul so dead, she actually enjoys giving head? Apparently, yes. And how.

    …so you can cut out that “why are you being so defensive” shit. She has a right to be.

    And now, the rest of your greatest dumbass hits.

    Because here’s the thing – a hungry dog and a spoonful of peanut butter will do the same thing. A properly lubed “fleshlight” or vacuum cleaner hose will do the same thing. Hell, a strategically placed hot tub jet will DO THE EXACT SAME THING. Guys like women to think that blow jobs are more art than science because then women get all proud and empowered and shit and decide that giving guys head is the next best thing to owning your own cosmetics company. But let’s get real. You’re sucking what DOES amount to a “funk-filled Bratwurst” which nature designed to blow a load with most any kind of lubricated friction.

    In other words, for guys all orgasms are equal. A long session of enthusiastic and creative fucking feels exactly the same as a quick wank in the loo. Sex never gets better the minimum amount of manipulation required to get off. That’s just depressing.

    It’s also a total crock.

    Because after 70 some odd comments, many? most? enough of which are from het or bi women extolling the inherent personal gratification of blowing men, well you can just put in my place.

    Quell surprise! Twisty said she’d enjoy something, and people provided it. Shocking!

    …but just women’s defense of sexual servitude in general…

    Funny, I didn’t see one post defending servitude, unless words like “reciprocal” and “partner” and “loving” and “foreplay” and like are all codewords for “treat me like a whore”. You must have better eyes than I do.

    I suppose few can appreciate that when I said “be-all and end-all” I don’t literally mean “be-all and end-all” and for what it’s worth when I said “best thing next to owning your own cosmetics company” I didn’t literally mean “best thing next to owning your own cosmetics company.” Oh, and “sexbot” does not literally mean “sex robot” but given that this is Twisty’s coinage, you should really ask her.

    Please, talk down to us some more. We really like that.

    The important part of hyperbole is that beneath the exageration is a core of truth that expresses what you really belive. So while you might not actually mean “be-all and end-all” you must mean something of a similar but somewhat lesser nature, or else you fucked up. So either you really meant to say that “I’ll give blow jobs if I damn well please (but not if don’t want to)” equals “blowjobs are a super important part of my sex life”, or you’re a moron.

    Which is it?

  117. bitchphd

    the idea that women write in to sexperts asking for advice on how to better deep-throat cock that gets my knickers in a twist.

    This, however, is valid; but as someone said, that’s not what the commenters in this thread are talking about.

    Oh, and btw re. anal sex: in fact, it can literally be pleasurable and no, I don’t believe this has to do with submission. I think it has to do with the number of nerve endings in the rectum, the experience of trust, and almost certainly the thrill of “violating” a taboo about something “dirty,” given that, of course, sex itself is supposedly “dirty.” I’m absolutely certain that for many, perhaps most, perhaps all people it also has elements of submission in it, but I can absolutely vouch for the fact that it can actually be physically pleasurable.

    Blow jobs, on the other hand, I don’t think are *physically* pleasurable; I think they are *psychologically* pleasurable. Again, for many folks I’m sure this is partly about submission fetishes; but for some I honestly think it is the opposite. Being in charge of a sexual encounter can be quite exciting, and blow jobs can definitely be acts of dominance as well as of submission.

    Now, of course, if we want to get into the question of whether the dominance / submission paradigm is *inherently* patriarchal, regardless of who is playing what role, that’s a different thing entirely.

  118. hexyhex

    Brooklynite:

    Seems to me like your quarrel is rightly with Twisty — she’s the one who yelled, “Hey, cocksuckers! Represent!”

    That made me laugh for so god damned long…

    In the interests of science and to the delight of my partner I performed a little… erm… “research” last night.

    Turns out that when I want to have an encounter with my lad without the ole pentration whatsit, I much prefer giving head to specifically not giving head. My wrist gets tired a lot sooner than my mouth.

    TMI? You know it.

  119. Qalyar

    Fair disclosure time: I’m an 80% straight male.

    First, the fundamental argument that Twisty posits: that oral sex is inherently degrading to women, cannot be enjoyable, and is universally an exploitive tool of the patriarchy. Even I’ll admit, it certainly CAN be these things. But so can sexuality in any form. If it is possible for a woman to have nonexploitive sex with a man, then I think it is possible for a woman to have nonexploitive oral sex with a man. Its important to look at the act in its context. Yes, oral sex is not directly physically satisfying (barring somewhat unusual erogoneity) to the provider, but in a caring, long-term physical relationship, pleasure is not a zero-sum game, either on any given night (afternoon, morning, whatever) of activity, or in the longterm. That isn’t the same as a one-night-stand deep-throated blowjob. Obviously, that kind of unreciprocated, isolated fellatio is undesirable from the feminist point of view (and, for what its worth, from mine … I don’t enjoy acts that aren’t enjoyed in turn). But that’s an unfair lens through which to judge any part of sex.

    But the second, and more divisive issue, I am sure, is whether ‘submission’ in the sexual context is fundamentally unfair to women. Again, I argue that it is not. Can my (female) partner and I share a night of intimacy in which she voluntarily takes a submissive role without her sacrifing her priviledge to self-describe as a feminist? I think so. After all, she and I can share a night of intimacy in which I take the submissive role without feeling some need to question my manhood. And I have on fairly good authority that sexual dominance doesn’t always have to be on an even keel over in lesbopotamia, either.

    So, feel free to say no to your partner about things you won’t take part in. Or find a compromise, like the one larkspur mentions (men who want fellatio as a powerplay are likely near-universally opposed to being snowballed). Compromise and conversation are what sex — well, good sex, anyway — is all about.

    But blanket condemnations of other people’s sexual practices is what ‘the patriarchy’ is all about. Even if they’re from a lesbian.

  120. Puffin

    If there were discussion on a feminist blog such as IBTP that tended to challenge women’s oppression and the discussion in question centered on how women tend to clean their families’ toliets and how while necessary and even worth merit in the sense that it kept things tidy and clean for her family, it’s also damn degrading work when you think about what cleaning toliets actually entails. Especially when women are the servant class. Now, would women line up to make post after post about how much they love cleaning toliets? Do you raise an eyebrow, perhaps, at the odd amount of enthusiasm with which so many women on toliet cleaner commercials are dancing around their bathrooms with dumbshit grins on their faces singing about how much fun they just had cleaning the head? And while it’s not beyond reason that some women do, indeed, enjoy cleaning their bathrooms, toliets included, within the context of blog named I BLAME THE PATRIARCHY it really would not make a lick of sense to let the world know how much fun cleaning the head is, would it? At the very least you could understand how whether or not you individually enjoy cleaning toliets ain’t really the point? The fact that women are expected to enjoy cleaing toliets is the point.

    When teenage girls sit around after starving themselves and will themselves to eat just a half a rice cake in any given day when what they really would like is a cheeseburger and fries and they do this so that the jocks will find the attractive and maybe – just maybe – if they lose five pounds the hell that is junior high school will be more bearable, would we not raise an eyebrow when they go on and ON about how much they just love those rice cakes? Can you appreciate that how my analogy up there was not about RICE CAKES but about the context in which so many women/girls claim to LOVE rice cakes? The rice cake isn’t the point. Women’s need to make a pro-rice cake arguments is the point.

    In other words, can any of you who have decided to call me an asshole or a moron and/or tell me how you take your rice cakes and/or dismiss my arguments because they may actually challenge your own unexamined support of blow jobs (notice I did NOT say “unexamined enjoyment of blow jobs”) actually see the forest for the trees? I know that I’ve hit a nerve with some of you and you can call me an asshole or illiterate or whatever to help yourself sleep at night. Yet the fact that I have hit a nerve means there’s truth to what I say.

    So sorry to poop all over your blow job p.r. party. But one of the things that I love most about Twisty is that she never fails to recognize that women’s choices do not exist outside of what the Patriarchy allows women’s choices to be. Where I was sorely mistaken was in thinking the majority of her commenters got that, thus my prior comment about “if it can happen here…” Maybe I’ve got Twisty all wrong but I think I’ve got most of you right, now.

  121. Ruthie

    OK, Puffin. Any woman who says she enjoys giving head is suffering from false consciousness. Is that it?

    Fine, I cop to it. Your worldview strikes me as narrow and depressing. Mine must strike you as ridiculous.

    Can we move on to something more interesting now?

    I sort of enjoy cleaning the bathroom too; sue me. Not rice cakes, though.

  122. The Reckless Tongue

    Puffin,

    I understand your argument about defining blow jobs as a degrading activity that’s promoted by patriarchy as a way of currying favor through pleasing men, but I disagree. Your analogy of rice cakes and cleaning toliets aren’t really accurate because we’re discussing a sexual act which is hopefully a heck of a lot more enjoyable than dried rice or scrubbing a toliet seat.

    To destroy patriarchy we have to destroy the distinctions and categorizations that dehumanize people and allow people to categorize “masculine” things as valuble and “feminine” things as worthless. Part of accepting the full humanity of indviduals is accepting their sexuality. I think truly feminist sex is sex based on partner’s mutual pleasure–giving and recieving. There’s nothing inherently anti-feminist about giving a blowjob, especially within the context of a mutually pleasureable and respectful relationship. While it’s true that patriachy has tried to define a woman giving a blowjob as a subservient act, that doesn’t make a blowjob a negative act, that’s just the spin patriarchy has put on it. Just as crying isn’t a negative act, patriarchy has defined it in a negative way because it indicates emotion and hence “weakness.”

    Patriarchy has put a negative spin on blowjobs because it’s part of one person giving another pleasure, and for patriarchy when one person “gives” someone something, that indicates weakness, strength is truly expressed through “taking.” Within the context of a mutually pleasureable and respectful relationship, conscious couples can use their seuxality and mutual pleasure to break down the way that patriarchy has defined sex (as a man “taking” pleasure from a woman) and redefine it in a feminist way, as individuals “sharing” pleasure.

  123. SingOut

    Puffin,
    I’m SO with you, here. I only wish I could’ve expressed my thoughts so eloquently.

  124. slade

    Ruthie,

    You really enjoy cleaning the bathroom? Enjoy cleaning the bathroom? And you say Puffin has a narrow and depressing outlook. You enjoy cleaning the bathroom. I have never heard anyone say that….ever.

    Once, I heard a man say that he liked to go into those ‘outhouses’ (and I mean ‘in’ the outhouse) at the Rest Stops on the Interstate Highways and get shit upon.

    But enjoy cleaning the bathroom?

  125. thebewilderness

    I may be overgeneralizing here, but it seems to me that what most commenters are talking about here is an issue of trust.
    One would tend to assume that those who have come out most in favor (cheerleading?)are probably in loving, trusting relationships.
    I think the main reason I have never enjoyed giving a bj is because I have never trusted any of the men I have had relationships with. I have no way of knowing if the commenters who claim to enjoy the act are self deluded or incredibly well adjusted people in relationships where it is safe to be honest and open with their partner. I choose to take them at their word.

  126. thebewilderness

    Puffin,
    A little less scorn would make it easier to hear and understand you.

  127. Pony

    To the anal sex afficionado:

    Can you name a degrading and dangerous sex act men are asked to do to show “trust”? This sounds so reactionary, like the 50s cant: “if you love me you’ll do it.”

    I’m waiting now for the other shoe to drop. The rest of the sex pos patter: you know, the part where you call dissenters lesbians, or frigid, or man-haters, or feminazis.

    Personally I think men who demand this really would prefer to fuck your brother.

  128. Puffin

    Jahzus, Ruthie. IT’S NOT ABOUT LIKING TO GIVE BLOW JOBS. IT’S NOT ABOUT LIKING TO CLEAN THE BATHROOM. AND FOR CHRISSAKES IT’S NOT ABOUT LIKING THE TASTE OF RICE CAKES.

    It’s about WHY you like it, why you tell yourself and others you like it, and the unfortunate tenacity and exuberance with which any number of women will make a point to tell the world just how pleasurable it all is for them without taking the time to consider that one woman’s orgasm can still be a tool of the patriarchy used to keep all women down. It’s about conflating your own SEXUAL pleasure (i.e. what happens when you are SEXUALLY satisfied) with men’s satisfaction, sexual or otherwise. And while these two need not be mutually exclusive, the fact that the mouth is NOT an erogenous zone for women (hedonistic’s drug-enduced experience aside) means that what they’re enjoying is the act of pleasing their (male) partner, NOT the act of sucking and tonguing the appendage from whence he urinates. And ain’t it interesting, huh, that this distinction is nebulous for even feminists?

    Perhaps it will make my position clearer to say THANK YOU to the women here who made that distinction in posting why they don’t mind performing oral sex on men. Perhaps it will help for me to reiterate that hedonistic’s observation that her mouth was the most sexually sensitive part of her body made it easier for me to accept her love of the bj. Perhaps if I told you all I’ve been there, done that, and didn’t consider it a personally degrading act, you’d get what I’m saying, but I doubt it. As I said up there somewhere, blow jobs are something nice to do for your partner and we should all enjoy being nice to others. To those who copped a story about oral fixations or feeling powerful making a guy come with your mouth or just loving the taste of penis, I’m not buying that shit for a minute. Just sayin’.

    Lucky for all you who find me moronic and assholish, however, is that my opinion on this matter and a buck-fifty will buy you a cup of coffee somewhere. It’s certainly not going to keep women from telling the world and themselves how much they love sucking dick, so rest assured.

  129. bitchphd

    it’s also damn degrading work when you think about what cleaning toliets actually entails.

    But the problem here is, what is *inherently* degrading about putting your mouth on someone’s genitals? It’s a loving act.

    your own unexamined support of blow jobs

    I’d be surprised if anyone here has failed to think about the feminist repercussions of oral sex.

    what they’re enjoying is the act of pleasing their (male) partner,

    Yeah. So? For those of us who are straight, pleasing our (male) partners is as much a part of sexuality as pleasing a (female) partner is for those of you who are lesbians. And yes, if you’re straight, this is a little more complicated inasmuch as one has to think about and work through the distinction between pleasing men as a class, and pleasing a particular man as a partner/lover. But I don’t think that the conclusion is that pleasing a man in any way is inherently anti-feminist.

    Can you name a degrading and dangerous sex act men are asked to do to show “trust”?

    Sure. Being fucked up the ass. Putting your dick in someone’s toothed mouth. Being tied down and beaten. Whatever. Hell, arguably giving a woman head is degrading, and potentially dangerous, since STDs do exist.

    But for the record: I didn’t claim to be an “aficionado” of anal sex, though as I think I’m the only one here who said it can be enjoyable, I suspect you’re talking to me. Nor, by the way, do I think that most of the women here are talking about “how much they love sucking dick,” as Puffin insists on reading what are in fact pretty thoughtful explanations of why, despite our recognition that sucking dick is widely seen as degrading and our own dislike of some aspects of it, we nonetheless find other aspects pleasurable. I merely said that yes, I’ve had anal sex, and I’ve enjoyed it. That doesn’t mean, as you imply, that I’ve EVER conceded to a “demand” that I do it–nor that I’ve ever conceded to a demand that I do jack shit in the bedroom. I, personally, have a major hangup about sexual demands, in fact.

    But that doesn’t mean that I, or anyone else who believes firmly that sex should be, as Puffin puts it, about my own “SEXUAL pleasure (i.e. what happens when you are SEXUALLY satisfied)” cannot, like any normally healthy human being, find sexual pleasure enhanced by the pleasure of my partner. I would not fuck a man who did not find my sexual pleasure important to him. I don’t think it’s super feminist to refuse to take pleasure in a (male) partner’s sexual pleasure–EVEN THOUGH I realize that there is a long and fucked-up history of convincing women that the MAJORITY of their sexual pleasure should be vicarious.

  130. MissPrism

    Puffin, thanks for the clarification, but is it really so unlikely that some heterosexual women like cocks?

    I’m not telling anybody else what to do, nor am I unaware that the appeal of BJs for some men and even women is linked to the idea of dominance and humiliation. However, if I avoided every sex act that has been appropriated by the patriarchy to humiliate women, there wouldn’t be much left to do.

    And the mouth may not strictly be an erogenous zone, but it is sensistive and most people get pleasure from kissing.

  131. CafeSiren

    Quim pro quo.

    Touché.

  132. Pinko Punko

    I can’t stop laughing. Skipping over the 5 paragraphs that would be my two cents, let’s address the issue of bratwurst. If it’s a Johnsonville, I’m on that bad boy like Twisty on a blame button.

    Anyhoo, I really don’t like scrambled eggs, does anyone think my opinion on omelettes is gonna convince them of anything?

    PINKO OUT

    Blaming in 5…4…3…2…

  133. Pinko Punko

    I would like to highlight the correct ellipses above (4.5, 3.5 and 2.5 were ellided)

  134. Willy Fliess

    I see.
    So sometimes a dick is just a dick?

  135. Pony

    BitchPhd

    I think your argument hits every marker in Twisty’s post. You exemplify the thesis.

  136. Sophist

    If there were discussion on a feminist blog such as IBTP that tended to challenge women’s oppression and the discussion in question centered on how women tend to clean their families’ toliets and how while necessary and even worth merit in the sense that it kept things tidy and clean for her family, it’s also damn degrading work when you think about what cleaning toliets actually entails.

    That analogy only really works if you consider sex a chore that isn’t any fun, but which needs to be done.

    Yet the fact that I have hit a nerve means there’s truth to what I say.

    Well, by that logic Ann Coulter must be and unquenchable font of truthiness.

    Puffin–IT’S NOT ABOUT LIKING TO GIVE BLOW JOBS.

    Twisty–Flame me if you will, but I posit nevertheless that no woman, since the dawn of the patriarchal co-option of human sexuality, has ever actually enjoyed this submissive sexbot drudgery.

    Aww, that’s too bad — but thanks for playing. Your consolation prize is a home version of the Patriarchy Blaming Game and a coupon for half-off a surf n’ turf platter at Red Lobster. So long.

    …the fact that the mouth is NOT an erogenous zone for women (hedonistic’s drug-enduced experience aside) means that what they’re enjoying is the act of pleasing their (male) partner, NOT the act of sucking and tonguing the appendage from whence he urinates. And ain’t it interesting, huh, that this distinction is nebulous for even feminists?

    Funny, I remember a bunch of posts here making the exact same point about the enjoyment coming from giving pleasure to their partner. But I guess plainly stating something counts as “nebulous” to you.

  137. darkymac

    It would be unappetising when a condom is what hits your taste buds and mouth, and what kind of fool believes that even intromission – vaginally, and face-to-face – is worth risking without prophylaxis against venereal diseases, let alone impregnation?

    The kind of fool who swallows the romantic exclusive sexual partnership myth.

    Furthermore, the person at the end of the penis getting inside one’s buccal cavity or down near one’s uvula, if they enjoy having their penis treated in this manner, is at least to be suspected of having learned this mode of sexual activity as part of a repertoire of activities undertaken as a member of the wider group of men – whether as exploiters of prostitutes or in more-or-less anonymous sexual activity with other men -or as part of the large numbers of pornography consumers, whose concentration on their penis is necessarily enforced by their being limited to masturbation/self stimulation when using pornography.

    So a generalised defence of fellatio in this society, as something even neutral, much less intrinsically able to be integrated into the range of acts within a loving heterosexual encounter, needs to have fellatio’s meaning to the person receiving it very carefully parsed at the same time as it is being defended as a palatable act to the fellator.
    It hasn’t been done in this discussion yet.

    That fellatio is considered any more than an extremely unusual proclivity amongst heterosexual women who are not prostituted is in itself a sign of a pressure to conform to that image coming from somewhere.
    It’s not something that a woman – or sadly, a girl – would gravitate towards, even when aroused enough to consider initiating a sexual encounter.

    Disclaimer: I’ve had more than 20 years experience, as a volunteer, of the more violent and diseased aspects of heterosexual relationships, and my view is not neutral.

  138. Morgan

    I second Pinko Punko; if it’s Johnsonville, parboiled in a cheap beer/water mixture with onions, cut in half lengthwise, grilled quickly, and served with mustard (but never ketchup) I will already be in Sheboygan, WI eating my third. If not, it had better be a particularly good night of sex.

  139. Wolke

    “It’s about WHY you like it, why you tell yourself and others you like it, and the unfortunate tenacity and exuberance with which any number of women will make a point to tell the world just how pleasurable it all is for them without taking the time to consider that one woman’s orgasm can still be a tool of the patriarchy used to keep all women down. ”

    Look, this has been the first time in my life that I talked about my opinion on blow jobs, and I did so because I was offended by generalized accusations like your “Be there a woman with soul so dead, she actually enjoys giving head?”, not because I wanted to promote bjs or convince anyone of anything. There were more comments of that sort, at least at the beginning the comments saying “it can be ok” were very few, contrary to what you’re saying. I couldn’t care less whether other women would never consider giving one or are happy giving them AS LONG AS they are aware of the problematics involved. However, unlike you, I trust women regularly reading Twisty’s blog to have thought hard about the problematics and to be able to distinguish between a degrading bj and an enjoyable one.

    “the fact that the mouth is NOT an erogenous zone for women (hedonistic’s drug-enduced experience aside) means that what they’re enjoying is the act of pleasing their (male) partner, NOT the act of sucking and tonguing the appendage from whence he urinates. And ain’t it interesting, huh, that this distinction is nebulous for even feminists? [...] To those who copped a story about oral fixations or feeling powerful making a guy come with your mouth or just loving the taste of penis, I’m not buying that shit for a minute.”

    So you outright deny the authenticity of women’s accounts about bjs involving pleasure for themselves (directly) – how much more patronizing can it get? Why, you’re telling everyone who thought they had been experiencing sexual pleasure by way of their mouths and tongues, that they’ve been mistaken because it’s a FACT the mouth is not an erogenous zone! And on top of that, these people are lying towards themselves, but they needn’t despair because you’re here to guide them towards the shining truth.

    Let me assure you there IS pleasure to be got from using the mouth and the tongue (what about kissing, licking and sucking other body parts?), sucking dick pleasure is NOT by definition indirect pleasure (I already said that my partner’s pleasure is secondary to me), and some people actually like penises, just like some like pussy.

    thebilderness, I agree with your point on trust. Don’t have time to go into it, nor do I see why I should have to spread out my private life and justify what I’m doing just so that Puffin comes to believe me?!

  140. Gia

    I have to say this breifly-

    I love it. I dont know why – but its the first thing I do before we have sex. Sometimes, I do it just for fun. I love the taste of my fiance’. The skin and the cum. I see how it pleasures him, and I know I gave him that pleasure.

    He isnt the first, at all, although he will be the last.

    On another note, strangely, I never liked it given to me. (I am a woman), but when he does it….its like transporting to another world. Ive never seen anyone flick a tongue so well. Besides, he is gorgeous. A truely beautiful man. Also, he is a doctor..so he knows where to hit :)

    Again though, I have gone hours with other partners, always with a craving of the act. I just like it :)

    Call me crazy….

    But my name is…
    Gia

  141. Pony

    he’s a doctor so he knows where to hit

    ahhahaaHAHAhahaha.

  142. Pony

    Puffin you are so righteous

    {still wiping tears of mirth from the doctor comment}

  143. Pony

    Wilke

    Do I get it on when I fellate a dildo?

  144. Ms Kate

    I hate it when feminists think being feminsts means looking and acting like a typical busybody fundy prude with new and fancy rationalized words to put out their mouths.

    To me, feminism means liberating myself from the strictures of society that tell me how to be a “good woman” so that I may live as a person. Puffin is simply putting a mirror up to the all the stupid little rules for women of the wingnuttery, telling us how to be “good women” or be sinners against womynkind according to her rules.

    GMAFB.

    This isn’t blaming the patriarchy: it is holding up a mirror to patriarchy and trying to claim it for oneself. Any good structural engineer knows that symmetry often lends sturdiness to a structure.

  145. saltyC

    Puffin’s eloquence is exactly the kind of perspective that brings me back to Twisty’s blog.

    I think the reason children know that kissing a pee-pee is gross is instinctive, and it’s our man show culture that says taking a mouthful of germ-infested pee trumpet is as wholesome as pudding.

    PS confession time: yes I have enjoyed it too, but I’m not going to come to a patriarchy-blaming sanctuary to sing praises to the skin flute.

  146. saltyC

    Ms Kate, I’m sure you look at the mainstream women’s magazines in the checkout line. BJ’s are what society expects of a “good woman”.

    As for labeling rebellious women as prudes, a good reference is the book _The Spinster And Her Enemies_ by Dr. Sheila Jeffreys, it exposes how activist, unmarried women in the 19th century who agitated against child prostitution were cast as frigid prudes by mainstream academics.

  147. MissPrism

    Salty, which sex acts would children not find gross?

  148. saltyC

    I was referring to an earlier post by sam.

  149. JackGoff

    “What do you call trolling from the owner of a forum?”

    I would say orking, or maybe wraithing.

    Just to say my own thoughts, sex acts are nothing unto themselves, and I know many women who at least say they enjoy giving blowjobs, mostly because it gives their partner pleasure. It can be said that this is a bad reason to do something, but if you love them, it shouldn’t matter i n my mind. I LOVE cunnilingus, mostly because I love my girlfriend and I love her vagina. If it is demeaning for women (or men) to give blowjobs, shouldn’t it, by the same token, be demeaning for men (or women) to eat out a woman? I know I don’t feel this way about oral sex, so at least one person isn’t afraid to get their mouth dirty and, in all truth, like it.

  150. MissPrism

    Salty, I know, I read the comment. I’m just saying that if we used children’s instinct for what is gross to limit our sex lives, I would have stopped way before tongue kissing.

    I don’t think cocks are germ-infested piss trumpets, but hey, I’m not going to condemn any woman for doing so, at least until men stop telling “smells of fish” jokes. Besides, piss trumpet is a damn good phrase, and one that I think would make a good insult.

  151. saltyC

    Wow I really didn’t mean that we should use what children think to limit our sex lives, and I seriously don’t care to speculate as to what they think of individual sex acts.
    I really was responding to a particular thought.
    I can never guess what ppl will read into what I say.

    As for germ-infested, yes it is. You can get all the STD’s plus bad bacteria in your mouth, it’s actually quite unsanitary, if you don’t use a condom, and who does?

  152. bitchphd

    That fellatio is considered any more than an extremely unusual proclivity amongst heterosexual women who are not prostituted is in itself a sign of a pressure to conform to that image coming from somewhere.

    Of course. Like a lot of our sexual activity, what is and isn’t considered in the realm of acceptable/expected/unusual/freakish behavior is culturally determined. I don’t think anyone here is saying that sex isn’t part of the broader culture. People simply started out responding, rather thoughtfully I think, to Twisty’s post, and then instead of actually trying to *discuss* the arguably problematic nature of their responses, Puffin (and a few others, although actually I think the specific post I’m quoting above doesn’t do this) jumped onto the more-feminist-than-thou bandwagon. And then, unsurprisingly, people got defensive.

    Anyway, I for one really hate these bad feminist/good feminist competitions, so I’m gonna bow out of the rest of this thread. I knew I shouldn’t've jumped in in the first place.

  153. CafeSiren

    I’m with the Bitch’s last bit. Twisty, I know you’ve got other things on your mind than blogging, but could you save us from our own snark and post something else? Even just a picture of Bert, Ro-Tel, or your dinner?

  154. MissPrism

    I wasn’t speculating, just remembering. And I’m sorry to misread you. I really thought you were using the kid’s comment Sam referred to as support for the idea that cocks are inherently too gross to put in one’s mouth. I’d been accused of having a dead soul, and was starting to get het up and read uncharitably.

    This is, for all its acrimoniousness, a great thread. It really is difficult sometimes to determine whether you really like something or whether you’ve just been told often enough that you ought to, and it’s great to get people thinking about these things.

    I’m still damn sure I enjoy it though.

  155. Sara

    Wow. I am really only interested in what other people eat for dinner. And I do hope it doesn’t involve plastic gnomes or tar paper.

  156. Ms Kate

    Ms Kate, I’m sure you look at the mainstream women’s magazines in the checkout line. BJ’s are what society expects of a “good woman”.

    Oh yes. And we’re going to fix that by lopping of the head of the patriarchy and letting puffin sprout there to give us a new set of rules for proper sex?

    I don’t think so.

    Instead of substituting “toilet cleaning” for “blow job”, try substituting “devil” or “satan” for “the patriarchy” and “God” for “all women” in these screeds and it begins to sound quite familiar.

    I think what Darkymac had to say about these sorts of issues was vastly more constructive and informed on a practical level. And while I might quibble with her focus on specific sexual acts rather than the larger issue of getting women to be more thoughtful and selective about appropriate personal boundaries and the people and contexts where sex is to be had, I think her post above is a valid starting point for this sort of philosophical conversation, not the denial of any woman’s lived experience of her own body or sexuality.

    I will never accept that liberation from one master means obedience to a new one. That isn’t femism, it’s cooption. Trading monarchy for fascism was never a good deal.

  157. Metal Prophet

    I don’t see how urging people to examine just why they do things qualifies as making rules for proper sexual conduct. One thing I’ve noticed is that whenever someone with a radical view makes a general observation that makes someone with a liberal view uncomfortable, the very first comment that comes up is “well, it’s not that way for me!” No one likes being made to think about just why they do something or enjoy doing something. With regards to the blow job debate, I think it would be intellectually dishonest to not pay attention to the major influence that porn has over sexual practices, particularly heterosexual sexual practices. I think the main responsibility here is with men in heterosexual relationships to question why exactly they’re turned on by certain sexual acts, since it’s mostly men who are consumers of porn. Even a lot of guys who are somewhat more enlightened about feminism have seen and been influenced by pornography. So it’s important to keep that in mind.

  158. hedonistic

    TMI ALERT! Skip this post if you skeeve over other people’s depictions of their sex lives.

    I had an interesting night. I, too did some – ehrm – “research” with an on-again-off-again lover. We’d missed each other terribly, and his room looked like a bloody war zone when we were finished. I had my period, and five minutes into it we just stopped caring about sexual politics or propriety or hygiene or mess or and it turned into this mad, hungry ravaged animal THING. Had a stranger walked into the room he probably would have called the cops.

    So here I am this morning, thinking: Feminist politics? Did somebody just say something? Huh? Let me caffeinate, put on my spectacles and get back to learning how to be a Good Feminist. Whatevah.

    Bottom line is that when a relationship is good and pleasure is a SHARED thing, it’s all good in the bedroom. Although oral was DEFINITELY involved last night, I defy anyone to suggest I played a “submissive” role. In fact, if anyone were doing more of the giving, submitting, or compromising, it was him.

    Certainly, he’s going to be the one doing all the cleanup.

  159. B. Dagger Lee

    Wow! Twisty’s got a turn-key blog, a perpetual discussion machine that goes and goes and goes. It’s so great. But where is Sunya Harjis? I enjoyed her HUGELY, and I am a pale imitation.

    150 comments later and we’ve drilled down in the thread to the Same Old Place.

    Puffin, I was unhappy when commenters characterized your comments and arguments as moronic or stupid . To characterize someone as moronic or stupid is foreign to me, but for what it’s worth, my girlfriend, Miss Patsy, is from a large family; and says it was there that she realized that “stupid idiot” is the best epithet ever invented. I would also remind everyone that the Marquis of Twistybury’s rules for today are Judgemental Sex Pedantry vs. Impassioned Arguments Defending It.

    It is true that the IBTP belljar is devoted to Blame and thumbing its nose at the Patriarchy, and making us all laugh; but it is also true that (as Gertrude Strine pointed out way up above) the host herself trolled her own blog! For that practice, I suggest the word “twattery,” but I am a practicing twat, fond of the word, and the thing in itself. “Twattery and Easy Persiflage” has a nice ring to it.

    I’ve thought this before and still think it, I admire Twisty because metaphorically speaking, She Does Not Suck Cock. Ever, as young Freeman found out. As it turns out, she does not suck cock in reality either. That I am less interested in. She and I also share an appreciation for the insouciant charm and most excellent literary style of the S.C.U.M. manifesto.

    However:

    Ah metaphor! Ah analogy! One size fits all. Audre Lorde’s maxim–you can’t dismantle the master’s house with the master’s tools–for me means to be suspicious of the Grand Unifying Theory of Feminism, because it sounds a lot like the Same Old Unifying Theory of the Patriarchy: Jonathan Edwards in drag, orchestrating the Feminist Cultural Revolution. And that chick still has a metaphorical dick and is still a Puritan at heart, and operates by shaming other women with rhetorical violence. That chick with a metaphorical dick struts and swaggers and gaslights on my interior stage as much as any one else’s, but I know she’s there, that inner tool.

    As it happens, I do believe that the Patriarchy has one big operating rule (that Dworkin detailed with such clarity): Men on top, enforce by violence! And yes, we are saturated by Patriarchal Culture, its violence, and its attendant threat of violence.

    But I suggest that where Dworkin (who I admire in many many ways) and Mackinnon (who I admire for her work with Bosnian rape victims) and Jeffries (whose writing I generally dislike and who says and writes hateful words about transpeople)—one moment where they go terribly wrong is when they discount, belittle and shame other women and their experience. For me, that is the Patriarchy speaking.

    And the second hugely important moment where they go wrong is in this: pretty much every time that women attack each other with rhetorical violence, I think that the invisible glass ceiling that exists in all of our heads and which has been constituted by the threat of male violence—that mental ceiling has been crashed into! Thump thump thump, as the birds hit the glass. As a project of imagination, what would happen if instead of turning aside to bite another woman, one relentlessly applied oneself to break the glass ceiling in the mind to relentlessly speak truth to the male holders of male power? To attack the nest? It’s so much safer and easier to attack other women, because I do not have a culturally-installed fear of female violence.

    The only thing Camille Paglia has ever said that I agree with is that hetero women are the butchest women of all. As far as I’m concerned, they’re on the front lines; they are the Maginot Line between me and the Patriarchy and I share their irritation when radfeminism leaps up and nips at their heels. So, from this lesbian feminist to all you bi-hetero-feminists out there: a kiss! Props and blowjobs! A blowjob from me to you!

    I reiterate: The Biggest Cocksuckers are Straight Men. I submit to you that David Brooks is probably the biggest cocksucker in the entire world.

    I remain, as always, yrs, B. Dagger Lee

  160. Pinko Punko

    YOU GUYS ARE KILLING ME with all your wang slang.

    Pee trumpet!

    Purple veiny turtle head!

    Gob knob!

  161. Pony

    Yeh. Blood does turn men on doesn’t it.

    Which changes the thesis here how??

  162. hedonistic

    Pony, I didn’t bring it up to change any thesis or even to suggest blood were a turnon. Upthread some folks objected to the BJ partly for hygienic reasons. All I could think was, if one allows bodily fluids into one’s sex life, how can sex EVER be hygienic? Even without the dreaded BJ, unless all parties are encased in rubber, sex is messy and germy. Perhaps what I’m suggesting is that, in the heat of the moment, most folk just don’t care.

  163. jje0000007

    hedonist, I’m not sure you get it. All sexual practices involving a man, himself or any other form of life, or object, is an objectivistic act and objectionable. Only specific forms of eating and drinking are now on the approved list of carnal pleasures. Check your mynual, minion!

    The bottom line is that if we can rid ourselves of human sex then we can rid ourselves of men, effectively removing all power from the powers that be. While resistance does not currently feel quite futile, the brilliance of such a game plan is unquestionable.

    The revolution will be cloned. We’re still not sure if it will be televised but it will include TVP.

  164. Pony

    Pinki Punko makes a point. There are so many words for the thing. We know why. I want to know what other women, this generation’s women (and guys) call what my generation called “down there”.

    Please do not let me go into my decrepitude in ignorance, horribly embarrassing all future generations of my feminist progeny.

    Begin:

  165. JackGoff

    My girlfriend calls it Mim, short for Mimsy. Don’t ask me where it came from because she won’t tell me. I suspect it was a past boyfriend who called it that, but it doesn’t sound like a guy thing to say. I call it the Mad Madam, which will make sense to any Disney fans out there.

  166. Lauren

    If you think the mouth isn’t an erogenous zone, you ain’t been kissed proper.

  167. nancy73

    “Bratwurst, like blowjobs, always work better with a little beer.”

    I’ve never gotten excited from giving a blowjob. I’ve always used the “hands off” rule. I’ve always felt vulnerable and nine kinds of slutty when giving one. And, I’ve always found it interesting that I gag more when I brush my teeth then when I give the franks and beans a little toungue tickle. Until, I relized, that I needed to breathe out when brushing the back molars so as not to gag, like I would do when taking in the cock. So, who’d have thunk it: Blowjobs leading to better oral hygiene.

    nancy73

    p.s. – I realize I’m late to the party on this one, but I also join the ranks of those who adore you, Twisty, and wish you the best of everything.

  168. Chris Clarke

    If you think the mouth isn’t an erogenous zone, you ain’t been kissed proper.

    Do you KNOW how many germs a mouth has in it? More than anywhere else on the human body.

    No way I’m putting my mouth on one of those.

  169. Carpenter

    In principle this is the same argument that can be made about against dressing all sexy. In itself without the cultural space around it means nothing. But in the context of women making themselves uncomfortable for the pleasure of men without hope of reciprocation it is a symptom of patriarchy. To this I would say not quite, for in many cases there is hope of reciprocation and it seems to me a lady can get a lot more out of fellatio than out of cramming her feet in spindly shoes and slathering gook on her face every morning. However, in many(maybe most ) cases it is the exact same thing as the high heel argument bc we are expected to provide hummers to total assholes whenever they feel like it and bc lots of guys expect to gag women by cramming things half way down our gullets so we can possibly enjoy it. Twisty makes similar arguments about marriage, individual ones may be good but the existing instituion is crappity.

    Unless the argument here is that, like the dreaded B***, the institution is inherently patriarchal. Then I would have to disagree.
    on a side note bell hooks wrote an interesting essay that is is up on her website about penes, and how she likes to stare at them.

  170. Ron Sullivan

    …Mim, short for Mimsy. Don’t ask me where it came from…

    From the Borogroves, obviously.

    Wotsisname the Hey Faggot columnist once mentioned somebody’s parallel construction to match “chicks with dicks”: “guys with pies.” He scorned it, but I find that the, well, friendliest and most appealing slang term for female naughty bits I’ve seen yet.

    I suppose I shouldn’t lean too heavily on analyzing, though, since I’m shacked up with the locally named Lord of the Pies.

  171. JackGoff

    …Mim, short for Mimsy. Don’t ask me where it came from…

    From the Borogroves, obviously.

    Sorry, the damn mome raths outgrabed again and I missed your point. ;-)

  172. Qalyar

    I don’t want to come across as some sort of agent provocateur here, especially what with being male and all, but… Some of these arguments just don’t seem defensible.

    I do not see logic that holds water in condemning fellatio but deeming cunnilingus acceptable. Same dominance/subservance issues; if two lesbians can switch roles, then so can a hetero couple. If not, then bottoms of every gender and orientation everywhere are being exploited. Same hygeine issues, too, really.

    And I find it disingenuous that some posters are drawing no distinction between casual sex and sex between comitted partners. I wouldn’t let a one night stand (not that I’ve ever had one, mind you) tie me down, either, but that doesn’t mean bondage is a tool of the patriarchy.

    Finally, regarding one specific health issue. darkymac stated that fellatio was an inherent risk of STD, because anyone believing an alternative is possible is “[t]he kind of fool who swallows the romantic exclusive sexual partnership myth.” I’m sorry that this poster’s experiences have left her unable to believe in the possibility of a partnership that enjoys actual sexual exclusivity. But it isn’t a myth. The alternative is either to state that no man is capable of faithfulness (which I, at least, strenuously object to), or that all women invariably sleep around. And THAT’s an attitude that is a tool of the patriarchy.

  173. Pony

    Really I never used “down there”. My generation was probably the first to mostly call body parts what they were. I don’t get who the Borogroves are. Never mind. Mim it is.

  174. JackGoff

    Pny: Really I never used “down there”. My generation was probably the first to mostly call body parts what they were. I don’t get who the Borogroves are. Never mind. Mim it is.

    It’s from Lewis Carroll. Through the Lookingglass “The Jabberwock.”

    One two, One two, and through and through!

  175. R. Mildred

    Oh lordy, save us from teh lesbians and asexuals who are detirmined to tell heterosexual women how to have sex.

    It’s way too tempting to just leave these two posts in a comment at LGF, so that we could involve some bonobos into the whole thing.

    But unfortuantely I have morals, just.

  176. Puffin

    You’re confusing your mouth with your brain, Lauren. Kissing is pleasurable not because there’s a wealth of erogenous receptors in your mouth but because of what’s going on between your ears whilst you’re kissing. Whether or not I “ain’t been kissed proper” has not a thing to do with it.

    But if you want to think it’s your pie-hole that is akin to your clit then it looks like you’ve been indoctrinated proper and the porno Deep Throat may likely rank among your favorite movies of all time. I’ll say it again, how lucky for the dude who gets a blow job from such a gal.

  177. Crys_T

    “You’re confusing your mouth with your brain, Lauren. Kissing is pleasurable not because there’s a wealth of erogenous receptors in your mouth but because of what’s going on between your ears whilst you’re kissing.”

    Well, obviously there is a huge psychological component to all sexual activity. But, it’s equally obvious that your lips and the inside of your mouth is a nerve-ending-rich, extraordinarily sensitive area of your body. That’s why babies put new objects in their mouths first thing: it’s a good way for them to learn about the texture of the thing. If you can get straight-up physical pleasure from putting food in your mouth that has pleasant taste and texture, why shouldn’t a good part of the pleasure we get from kissing be purely physical?

  178. Burrow Klown

    _The Spinster And Her Enemies_ by Dr. Sheila Jeffreys, it exposes how activist, unmarried women in the 19th century who agitated against child prostitution were cast as frigid prudes by mainstream academics

    OMG! I’m reading that book right now, and I love it!

    Before I began to be a spinster in training I occassionally dated guys. That thing’s not going anywhere near my mouth, thank you. Guess that makes me a hairy legged prude. Oh well.

    I *heart* Puffin. Thanks for trying to explain this whole idea yet again (same thing with p**n and B***.)

  179. Pony

    “That’s why babies put new objects in their mouths first thing…”

    Uh no it isn’t. Babies put things into their mouths because to them, everything is food. That’s the only thing they know. They are primitive little organisms programmed to survive, whose soul purpose is to eat and shit for about 2 years, at which time they learn to employ discretion about what goes into their mouths and what doesn’t.

  180. Brooklynite

    They are primitive little organisms programmed to survive, whose soul purpose is to eat and shit for about 2 years, at which time they learn to employ discretion about what goes into their mouths and what doesn’t.

    Um, by their second birthday lots of kids are speaking in complete sentences. They’re making concious choices about what to put in their mouths long before that.

  181. bitchphd

    Babies put things into their mouths because to them, everything is food.

    Nonsense. It’s tactile exploration, and they continue to do it throughout childhood. Adults, too, chew on things and try them in their mouths from time to time. And anyway, the hard line you’re trying to draw here between sensuality and food doesn’t exist.

  182. thebewilderness

    Pony,
    It is a reference to a nonsense poem”The Jabberwock”
    Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gire and gimble in the wabe, all mimsy were the borogroves and the mome raths outgrabe.
    I probably spelled some of it wrong. sorry

  183. Wolke

    It’s almost amusing to be told by strangers what one is feeling and why. I love licking my boyfriend’s lips, face, whatever (he’d prefer I didn’t). Puffin, would you please tell we why I like this – or should I say, why I think I like this? Is it patriarchal indoctrination or confusing him with food or some mysterious cognitive process?

  184. Crys_T

    “Babies put things into their mouths because to them, everything is food.”

    No, babies don’t try to EAT everything they put in their mouths. If you watch them, you can see them clearly exploring the objects with their lips and tongues.

    And anyway, as Bitchphd has pointed out, since when have the concepts of food and eating been divorced from sensual pleasure?

  185. thebewilderness

    “I don’t want to come across as some sort of agent provocateur here, especially what with being male and all, but… Some of these arguments just don’t seem defensible.

    I do not see logic that holds water in condemning fellatio but deeming cunnilingus acceptable. Same dominance/subservance issues; if two lesbians can switch roles, then so can a hetero couple. If not, then bottoms of every gender and orientation everywhere are being exploited. Same hygeine issues, too, really.”

    Are you suggesting that if two people who are equal in our society can switch roles, that two people who are not equal in our society can? Because if you are, it makes no sense whatsoever to me.

  186. R. Mildred

    Guess that makes me a hairy legged prude. Oh well.

    I’m sorry, did you post about how you consider all blowjobs inherently patriarchal and mark heterosexual women who engage in such acts as bad women?

    Because this is the thing, no one actually tried to force you to suck dick except the patriarchy, and no one is trying to take blow jobs away from het women except the patirarchy, oh and now slut shaming sister fuckers like puffin of course, because I’m sure reaffirming the low status teh patriarchy assigns women who suck dick was sooo neccesary for feminism.

    So no, actually, you don’t get to crucify yourself on some made up cross formed out imaginary attacks by some mythical pro-cock sucking patriarchal women, those women do not exist, that’s why prostitutes suck so much dick, because under patriarchy Good Women (the ones married to the johns) do not suck dick.

  187. Crys_T

    I somehow missed this bit from Qalyar: “I do not see logic that holds water in condemning fellatio but deeming cunnilingus acceptable. Same dominance/subservance issues”

    Not that I’ve ever seen. When have you ever seen cunnilingus framed as the giver being subserviant, ESPECIALLY when said giver is male? I’ve seen men describe it as gross or whatever, and there are those who say they’d never do it (I guess for them anything that’s about female pleasure isn’t worth it), but there is a whole section of mainstream society that sees eating pussy and “making” women go out of control and orgasm as just another way of men getting one over on us.

    (and of course I do not go along with that conception of it, I’m just saying that I’ve seen enough evidence out there that shows this mindset exists)

    “if two lesbians can switch roles, then so can a hetero couple”

    What thebewilderness said. How could you even compare those 2 examples?

  188. Carpenter

    To be fair Puffin said the following
    *At best it’s something nice to do for a guy whom you care about. At worst, it’s another humiliating compromise of dignity that women do to please men and then tell each other how much they fucking love it and how damned empowering/pleasurable it is.*

    I think theres a little more to it at best but generally thats the right idea and probably most people agree with the at worst.

    Aslo
    *My issue is not one of needing women to see blow jobs as degrading, Ms Kate. A woman performing oral sex on a man is not, in and of itself, degrading at all in my mind.*

    Puffin and twisty didn’t ever say ‘don’t’ either. That was a misinterpreatation
    Puffin did ask that we critique why we give blowjobs, that we ask to what extent our sexual pleasure is vicarious. That’s a a fair concern.

    *Here’s what I think is going on. Women want to be valued and appreciated by men. Men like their dicks sucked. So, women engage in sucking dick and those who do not consider their mouths to be an erogenous zones convince themselves it’s pleasurable because it gives them so much “power.” And sadly, in this Patriarchal shithole world of ours, blow jobs are the equivalent of power for many women.*

    I think for many cases, but not ALL the above comment is true

    BUT what I did think was unfair was the “be all end all” dig. Nobody on the thread ever said this. Ever. That was overreacting. Also the ‘dead soul’ thing. That understandable makes people defensive. Anyway Puffin made many good points if you go back and read them, it’s aunfair to say anyone is crucifying themselves or saying DON’T, also no one was really sying dick sucking is above feminist critique or is the be all end all of womens sexuality.

  189. hedonistic

    Can we all agree it may be pleasureable AND problematic, and move on to corn dogs?

  190. Pony

    Sigh. What a great couple days it’s been on the feminist blogs. Twisty’s, Puffins, and Hearts posts and all the responses. I’m happy than a pig in shit. Everything below the belly button here died yesterday for lack of blood so I don’t care anymore who blows what.

  191. hedonistic

    WHAT?

    I’d ask you for details on your own blog but . . .?

  192. Pony

    I would say Wolke, that you enjoy the passive aggressive overtones in this kind of play, where you force him to endure something he expressly doesn’t like, and this is your subtle way of getting back at him for the bj’s maintenance of your relationship requires.

  193. Pony

    Are you talking to me?

    I mean, I have got to stop sitting at this computer for 18 hoiurs a day. But I have to earn a living, and then I have to read you, and Twisty, and Puffin, and Heart. and (elipsis removed).

  194. hedonistic

    Whew, Pony, that’s all? I thought something horrible happened to your nether regions.

  195. Lauren

    You’re confusing your mouth with your brain, Lauren.

    No I’m not. Incidentally, mouths are a common erogenous zone whether or not your lack of anatomical understanding believes them to be, regardless of whether pricks go into them or not.

    Kissing is pleasurable not because there’s a wealth of erogenous receptors in your mouth but because of what’s going on between your ears whilst you’re kissing.

    Ah, but there are a wealth of nerve endings in the mouth. And my brain, the one I’m using right now as I try to wrap my head around how the hell the rest of your comment has anything to do with my snarky aside, also happens to like the kissing. Sometimes, and I know this is going to sound totally crazy, we have a symbiotic relationship between mind and body. Dude, I know.

    Whether or not I “ain’t been kissed proper” has not a thing to do with it.

    But if you want to think it’s your pie-hole that is akin to your clit then it looks like you’ve been indoctrinated proper and the porno Deep Throat may likely rank among your favorite movies of all time. I’ll say it again, how lucky for the dude who gets a blow job from such a gal.

    Note that I didn’t say shit about whether or not I put the John Thomas into my mouth, yet clearly I’m deluded, suck a patriarchal dick, and can’t tell a mouth from a pussy. How very feminist of you to tell me what I think, shut me down, and insult me all in one fell swoop. As an aside, I haven’t sucked a cock since I decided I just wasn’t that into it. But hey, get down with your bad self. Feminist hierarchy indeed.

  196. Lauren

    One final comment, directed at nobody. Someone at Punk Ass Blog brought up the pretty undeniable fact that all sex, because we live in patriarchal conditions, occurs in a patriarchal context. Fight against the dick sucking all you want, but remember that all fucking, including homo fucking, occurs within the patriarchy. It doesn’t have to involve a cock for sex to be influenced and controlled by power and gender struggles.

  197. Pony

    R Mildred

    Prostitutes suck so much dick because their pimp makes sure they’re addicted before he puts them out and sucking dick pays for the next hit. Prostitutes don’t give a shit what you want. It’s what they want that. Your dick is just a means to an end. Prostitutes also know it isn’t “good” women who put them out there and keep them out there, it’s YOU. Either way, angel or whore they’re both just sucking your dick to survive.

    Remembering women murdered by men (who loved having them suck their dick)
    http://www.missingpeople.net/

  198. Lauren

    And now cocksucking leads to murder.

  199. Lauren

    And now cocksucking leads to murder.

  200. Chris Clarke

    And now cocksucking leads to murder.

  201. Flamethorn

    Crys T,

    When have you ever seen cunnilingus framed as the giver being subserviant, ESPECIALLY when said giver is male?

    In the Black Jewels Trilogy by Anne Bishop. Good books.

  202. Pinko Punko

    So I would add seriously- that part of the patriarchy’s deal with BJs is that women Do and Do Not give them- the no win situation, i.e. everythign about patriarchy is about forcing sex, then considering that sex to be a woman’s crime and to use that crime to further control women. The ol’ double jeopardy, and the ol’ divvying up and control of the female sexual resource. So you could try to make an anti-patriarchy argument for and against BJs, but you can’t win because patriarchy gets to have it both ways. I would say that sexual freedom, free from patriarchical consequences, the freedom to enjoy or NOT ENJOY a BJ would be the most anti-patriarchy argument. However is this argument possible within a system that desires BJs on one hand and will also try to punish a BJ on the other? The system will always desire the BJ, but will the system always punish it? Does one half of that question relate to unalterable biology more than the other?

    Oh crap, I was serious for a second. Let me add something unserious: Petrified hair-snail.

  203. Delphyne

    Maybe we should be talking about the pleasant feeling of superiority and dominance over women which men get along with their orgasm when they get their dicks sucked by their female partners. Would a man who was really concerned with the cause of women expect dick-sucking as his due?

    It must be great being a man in patriarchy – all these women defending their “sexual freedom” to suck chap’s dicks. They don’t have to do a goddamn thing except unzip their flies.

  204. R. Mildred

    Prostitutes don’t give a shit what you want. It’s what they want that. Your dick is just a means to an end. Prostitutes also know it isn’t “good” women who put them out there and keep them out there, it’s YOU. Either way, angel or whore they’re both just sucking your dick to survive.

    Prostitutes just force men to take blow jobs because they get more money for it? The guys are just this passive creature who is unwillingly blown if they come within 10 feet of a prostitute, and then charged for the service? In short – prostitutes are teh work of the patriarchy, men who use prostitutes are however mere victims of the dirty dirty cocksucking whores? And I’m a bad feminist for sucking dick?

    Again I ask people who have no idea what they’re talking about about to kindly refrain from talking about that which they know nothing about, you look silly.

    And I proff my fellatio finger at Delphyne without further comment.

  205. Delphyne

    “And I proff my fellatio finger at Delphyne without further comment.”

    Are you being rude? Why?

  206. Pony

    “Prostitutes just force men to take blow jobs because they get more money for it? The guys are just this passive creature who is unwillingly blown if they come within 10 feet of a prostitute, and then charged for the service? In short – prostitutes are teh work of the patriarchy, men who use prostitutes are however mere victims of the dirty dirty cocksucking whores? And I’m a bad feminist for sucking dick?

    Again I ask people who have no idea what they’re talking about about to kindly refrain from talking about that which they know nothing about, you look silly.”

    This is the exact opposite of the meaning of my post. The subject of which I know A WHOLE LOT ABOUT.

    These women are my my kin, and I’m not using those words in a rhetorical sense. I didn’t get my experience on this from a textbook. Capice?

    Pimps, who are MEN force prostitutes to pull in as much as possible, so they suck dick not because they like it or it’s such an empowering or “freeing” act but because if they bring in $1300 in one night of sucking cock, maybe they’ll get enough money BACk FROM HIM for their hit, and a greasy burger before their turned out again.

    As I sit here in my one room apartment looking over the corner I used to work…

    I repeat your last sentence:

    “Again I ask people who have no idea what they’re talking about about to kindly refrain from talking about that which they know nothing about, you look silly.”

    I have no idea about what I’m talking about? I’m probably the only person here who didn’t get it from a book.

  207. Twisty

    And now cocksucking leads to murder.

  208. wabewawa

    On 06/15/06 at 9:44 a.m., Pony wrote:

    I’m a blow job virgin. Giving or getting. I think that has more to do with my generation/age than any decided preference. The opportunity has not presented itself.

    - and then later -

    This is the exact opposite of the meaning of my post. The subject of which I know A WHOLE LOT ABOUT.

    (non-elliptical elision of text here)

    As I sit here in my one room apartment looking over the corner I used to work…

    I am so lost.

  209. Lauren

    Interesting that the women who stoop to oral sex get attacked in this thread, but no man (correct me if I’m wrong) who has participated so far has had the *ahem* balls to admit to enjoying his cock in another’s mouth.

  210. Lauren

    Correction: Straight man.

  211. R OBrien

    Lauren:

    I enjoyed it when my ex-girlfriend gave me head. I didn’t even have to ask for it, either. (Just like she didn’t have to ask me to return the favor.)

  212. Chris Clarke

    Lauren calls me out, and I must own up to enjoying being on the receiving end if my partner is enthusiastic about it.

    I will say that the practice I enjoy bears little resemblance to the pr0n-standrd worst-case-scenario blowjobs described repellently above.

  213. hedonistic

    I think Pinko Punko brought up a really good point. And now that I’ve read Pony’s post I’m all depressed.

    Bottom line is, if Pinko Punko has described this conundrum perfectly, and I think he has: No woman gets to win this game, whatever she does. So, everyone, just make your way as best as you can.

    Peace out

  214. Brooklynite

    You want ahem-balls, Lauren? I avowed the deliciousness of my sex, or at least approvingly quoted a guy who did.

  215. Carpenter

    Pinko Punko I agree
    *So you could try to make an anti-patriarchy argument for and against BJs, but you can’t win because patriarchy gets to have it both ways. I would say that sexual freedom, free from patriarchical consequences, the freedom to enjoy or NOT ENJOY a BJ would be the most anti-patriarchy argument.*

    All sex within the patriarchy may be viewed as an act of women’s submission. If thats the case the best I can hope for is that each individual sex act I have is one where I and my partner are having it with the least possible amountof patriarchal bullshit on our minds. This is where the Twisty filter is very useful. Why am I gonna engage in X sex act? Do I really want to? To what degree am I self scacrificing inordinately? Is my partner a sexist ass in any way? etc. These questions help to banish/deal said patriarchal bullshit before the act. So when I am out in the world and people say jackass things about sex I can call bullshit on them because I’ve really thought it and am aware of how they interpret my personal sex acts. However I am not going to stop said sex acts, unless of course they don’t pass my filter, becuause Goddammit.

    Having a healthy sex drive is not going to take down the patriarchy, becuase that just mans all women want it/gotta have it. Not having a healthy sex drive is not gonna take down the patriarchy because women don’t have sex drives only men Mars/Venus yadda yadda. The only thing to do is be a true sexual agent/subject, have oral sex ecause you like it and like your parntner not becuase it is “empowering”or becuasde you measure your sexual worth solly on getting other people off. Thats the best you can do. Will the patriarchy interpret that any way that is best for itself? Probably but at that point what are you gonna do.

  216. thebewilderness

    In our hearts we have always known that cocksucking leads to murder.

  217. Scott Eric Kaufman

    Lauren,

    I think the only productive way that could’ve been introduced into the conversation would’ve been for P.Z. to mosey over and tell us that of course men enjoy oral contact with the regions of their genitalia embryologically homologous to the female clitoris and which, for that matter, contains the same nerve ganglia and activates the homologous pleasure centers in the brain. But something in the air prevented that obvious, purely physiological fact from being bandied about.

    I blame it on a discourse which so quickly turned against the practice that it became almost impossible to distinguish it from the practioners. This conflation was used, repeatedly, to demean those women who defended the practice in context; more disturbing, the failure to make that distinction made long stretches of the debate read like homophobic, conservative anti-sex screeds. People were one step away from saying “deep-throating is disgusting because it’s not natural,” a statement I hear versions of screamed by ignorant, plackard-donned fundamentalists every time I accompany friends to West Hollywood on a Friday or Saturday night.

    After all, if you’re going to blame the patriarchy, shouldn’t you do so on the behalf of everyone it demeans? (Funny, I already regret hitting “Blame” and I haven’t even done it yet…)

  218. Lauren

    Brooklynite, I stand corrected.

    But did you like it? *waggles eyebrows* :P

  219. Lauren

    Now that I think about it, I should probably avoid entongued emoticons on this thread.

  220. Edith

    Nothing to say here EXCEPT: yeah blow jobs are gross. But you know what’s even grosser? Having a guy put his penis in your VAGINA. At least your mouth has teeth.

  221. finnsmotel

    “I posit nevertheless that no woman, since the dawn of the patriarchal co-option of human sexuality, has ever actually enjoyed this submissive sexbot drudgery”

    ‘actually enjoyed’ is the variable in this equation.

    People enjoy some of the craziest shit and I’ll never understand it. Piercing body parts that were pleasantly unpierced. Augmenting body parts for aesthetic improvement. Some pretty painful elective sport, wouldn’t ya say?

    It’s no surprise that swordswallowing gets defense from the boys (I’ll raise my sword in defense!). I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that gals might defend it, too, though, since enjoyment can come from the craziest place in the human psyche.

    We ride carnival rides that make us puke. We eat spicy food that makes our stomachs hurt. We drink booze and barf it up. We take drugs for fun and cause ourselves all kinds of misery.

    Dick sucking seems pretty tame by comparison to some of the stuff we humans call enjoyment, you know?

  222. Whitters

    My girlfriend calls it Mim, short for Mimsy. Don’t ask me where it came from because she won’t tell me. I suspect it was a past boyfriend who called it that, but it doesn’t sound like a guy thing to say. I call it the Mad Madam, which will make sense to any Disney fans out there.

    :singing: I’m the magnificent, marvelous Mad Madame Mim! :/singing:

    I love that movie. :-)

  223. Wolke

    “The only thing to do is be a true sexual agent/subject, have oral sex ecause you like it and like your parntner not becuase it is “empowering”or becuasde you measure your sexual worth solly on getting other people off. Thats the best you can do.”

    Thank you so much for pointing this out, Carpenter. I’m quite distressed about there being feminists in this blog who don’t deem other feminists capable of asking themselves and answering honestly the questions you mentioned (“Why am I gonna engage in X sex act? Do I really want to? To what degree am I self scacrificing inordinately? Is my partner a sexist ass in any way? etc.”) At least that’s what I have to conclude from some people’s unrelenting refusal to accept other feminists’ answers to these questions if they differ from their own.

  224. Rob Anderson

    Fair enough. Then I suppose you ladies will all stop asking (demanding?) that we gentlemen go down on you, right? Right??

  225. Chris Clarke

    Rob, I’m sure Twisty will stop demanding that of you right away.

  226. Jabberwock

    It’s from Lewis Carroll. Through the Lookingglass “The Jabberwock.”

    Actually, quick correction: The poem itself is called Jabberwocky, the creature described within is the Jabberwock.

    I find this whole thread very amusing in a spectrum of ways. A lot of funny posts, a lot of intelligent posts… and then there’s Puffin. Puffin, how can you claim to be a feminist while giving women so very little credit with regard to intelligence and personal volition? Place some of the things you say in the mouth of a man, and then try to tell me they are not the Patriarchy. “A woman who does ______ is not an acceptable woman.” Regardless of what fills that blank, be it “give blowjobs” or “not cook”, it’s still a stereotype about women that tries to oppress individual will and happiness. And it’s still a stereotype about women, which to me seems self-defeating. Liberation and equality will not come in the form of taking women (or, rather, the idea of what comprises a woman, but that just kind of nebulizes the metaphor) from one box and sealing them up in another.

    Puffin, try focusing on eliminating the things that actually oppress women, and not things that women do of their own volition because of personal enjoyment. Doing the opposite merely contributes to the oppression, giving it a kind of stereo effect. Liberation isn’t having “YOU CAN’T YOU CAN’T YOU CAN’T YOU CAN’T YOU CAN’T YOU CAN’T” coming at you from both sides.

    On a more general note, not necessarily having to do specifically with this conversation: Feminist Fundamentalism as a whole seems flawed, in that it appears to base itself on the notion that there is a particular group that ought to feel ashamed of itself because of a condition with which it was born that is beyond its control, regardless of who that person is on the inside. History has taught us many lessons about this perspective, and I certainly wouldn’t recommend it to accomplish any purpose.

    Thanks for taking the time to read this, even if it accomplished nothing more than stealing a minute or two from your lives.

  227. Elkhaven

    If there is anything that I’ve learned growing older, it is that my young notions about power relationships in male-female sexuality was pretty much an illusion. As a male, I eventually learned it from women. And what I learned surprised me.

    Out of all the women I’ve ever dated, about half of them professed a very strong desired to be ‘submissive’ in bed and to be ‘dominated’ by the man. I quotationalize intentionally here, because these are more metaphoric than real. Women have told me, and it took me many years to understand it, that they feel it is they who have the power when playing the part of the submissive. The rest is just a conventionalized illusion, and the women are sharp as a razor when it comes to dealing with these layers of power and turnabout.

    When I say that half the women I’ve dated had professed the desire to play the role of submissive, I mean to say that they not only wanted that, but if they couldn’t get it, they would leave you for someone who would give them what they wanted. You see, I’m a little shy during the first couple of dates, and I often don’t get to what they want fast enough. [In fact, I'm the kind of person who while I enjoy that kind of sex a lot, it needs to be in the context of a relationship for me.] This was a little surprising for me, since I was used to being respectful and gentlemanly. Apparently that was too mild. Now there is one interesting trend that I’ve noticed about such women is that they are — without an exception in my case, and this is a large sample — the most powerful and accomplished half of the whole bunch. They include scholars, left-wing activists, philosophers, starring actors and musicians, doctors, writers, film-makers. All of these women are extremely powerful in their careers, many well-known, and for reasons that I’m not sure I understand myself, when these women get home, they want to be treated like a fuck-slave. I mean really really want it. What you have to realize is that this involves the pressure to perform on my part — as I say, they will leave you if they aren’t satisfied, or laugh at you! And I know it is just an act on my part and theirs. It does express something primordial, but it is a very complicated expression of it, and the power relations are highly ambiguous and multi-layered. But I’m not naive enough any more to think that I’m the one with the power. The less powerful women, by the way, seem to be the ones more likely to feel that being dominated is being victimized.

    I suspect that what a lot of women are (legitimately) targeting is not this variety of sexual preference, which is a lot like a very complicated dance. I think the culprit is *pathological narcsisism*, which is a true disease with many manifestations (and a few paradoxical manifestations of its own), and that is *true* veridical sadism. The Neocon obsessive with male power, domination, conquest, war, tyranny, etc. is a symptom of *pathological narcissism*, not the innate nature of males. It does seem to be a predominantly male disease, and it can destroy populations, as with George Bush, a noted pathological narcissist. But I’ve dated some women like that too. A paradox — a woman I knew who had fantasies about ideal transcendental love seemed so pure at first, but over time, I realized that her fantasies about love did not involve another person. In reality, she was subtly sadistic — not play-sadistic, but real sadistic. She spoke of nothing but love, but she loved nobody. That’s pathological narcissism, not sexual preference. But some of the most damaging subjugation of women that I’ve witnessed comes from their best friends, who dominated every aspect of their lives, told them what to think, eat, buy, and wear, and sabotaged any burgeoning relationship that didn’t meet with approval.

    eLKhaven

  228. shawn

    There is nothing wrong with giving good head, and everything with giving it for the wrong reason or to the wrong guy. YOU want control? Catch him unaware in the shower when he falls down to worship at your feet, you know you are the ruling entity.

  229. jms

    So the answer to sexual objectification is a return to sexual repression? Was is your ridiculous standard of what women “should” be than male chauvinistic views of what women “should” be? If you do not enjoy performing oral sex on men, I suggest not performing oral sex on men.

    I am a heterosexual male. I enjoy women, (well, a particular woman), performing oral sex on me. I do because it feels good, not some crazed power trip. I also enjoy performing oral sex on women. I feel neither dominant nor submissive during either of these acts.

  230. miquez

    Just a couple of comments for you to turn inside out and call me a moron:

    “Nothing to say here EXCEPT: yeah blow jobs are gross. But you know what’s even grosser? Having a guy put his penis in your VAGINA. At least your mouth has teeth.”
    – What do you think vaginas are there for? If you think a penis in a vagina is disgusting then you question your own anatomy. It is like saying that food in a mouth is disgusting. Or a tool in a hand. Or walking. –

    “Catch him unaware in the shower when he falls down to worship at your feet, you know you are the ruling entity.”
    – Why do so many of you here think sex is about submission and ruling the other? Who do you guys have sex with? Hannibal Lecter? Have you only ever met sexual psychopaths? –

    “Maybe we should be talking about the pleasant feeling of superiority and dominance over women which men get along with their orgasm when they get their dicks sucked by their female partners. Would a man who was really concerned with the cause of women expect dick-sucking as his due?”
    – We do not expect it more than women expect flowers. And by the way, I do not feel superior when I get my dick sucked. I feel humbled. And that is why I never actually refer to it as that. I just use the expression for the sake of those here who have never experienced or given it with any emotional attachment. It can in fact be the most intimate act a man and a woman can experience. Both ways. –

  231. TikiHead

    Goodness, I do thank the gods, in whom I have no belief, that I am a gay man.

    Like I’ve always said, cunts are a waste of time.

    And what man in his right mind would want to sully his precious tongue by sloshing it in a reeking, oozing mackerel slot anyway?

    Sorry, gotta go peform botsex drudgery now — so darn humiliating! (As a followup, perhaps some sad and pointless anal as well.)

    ~T~

  232. Serithe

    Uh, TMI alert here, too, I guess.

    A year or so ago at the age of 17, I made the mistake of allowing my friendship with a boy to progress into a full-fledged relationship, my first (and hopefully last). Quickly, he began pressuring me into sex, and I was more than a little resistant. Though I relented at one point, I absolutely refused to give him head, despite his constant nagging.

    He tried every argument in the book. He even insisted on going down on me, in hopes that I would reciprocate. I didn’t. While making out, he once tried to gently push my head down downward. I almost punched him in the face.

    He asked me why I was so adamantly opposed to fellatio; I said it seemed degrading and uncomfortable. Though he produced several combative arguments, I never gave in, though internally I wondered if there was something wrong with me. I couldn’t quite put my finger on why I refused, even when we had performed the male equivalent.

    And — lo and behold — here is Twisty’s three-word footnote as a beam of light in the darkness: “It’s fucking gross.”

    Yeah, that about covers it. And that’s why this entry is such a classic to me. Also, the phrase “funk-filled bratwurst” is hilarious, because it’s so damn true. Patriarchy-minded men (like, all of them) glorify their dicks as a symbol of power and triumphant manhood (The sword of virility! The filler of the void that is the vagina!), but Twisty knows what they really are. Funk-filled bratwursts. Truer words were never spoken.

    And by the way, that little boyfriend blip ended when I committed relationship-suicide by telling him I no longer cared to have sex. He blew up, calling me selfish and insensitive, and I never heard from him again. One of the best decisions I ever made.

  233. Serithe

    Uhh, TMI alert here, too, I guess.

    A year or so ago at the age of 17, I made the mistake of allowing my friendship with a boy to progress into a full-fledged relationship, my first (and hopefully last). Quickly, he began pressuring me into sex, and I was more than a little resistant. Though I relented at one point, I absolutely refused to give him head, despite his constant nagging.

    He tried every argument in the book. He even insisted on going down on me, in hopes that I would reciprocate. I didn’t. While making out, he once tried to gently push my head down downward. I almost punched him in the face.

    He asked me why I was so adamantly opposed to fellatio; I said it seemed degrading and uncomfortable. Though he produced several combative arguments, I never gave in, though internally I wondered if there was something wrong with me. I couldn’t quite put my finger on why I refused, even when we had performed the male equivalent.

    And — lo and behold — here is Twisty’s three-word footnote as a beam of light in the darkness: “It’s fucking gross.”

    Yeah, that about covers it. And that’s why this entry is such a classic to me. Also, the phrase “funk-filled bratwurst” is hilarious, because it’s so damn true. Patriarchy-minded men (like, all of them) glorify their dicks as a symbol of power and triumphant manhood (The sword of virility! The filler of the void that is the vagina!), but Twisty knows what they really are. Funk-filled bratwursts. Truer words were never spoken.

    And by the way, that little boyfriend blip ended when I committed relationship-suicide by telling him I no longer cared to have sex. He blew up, calling me selfish and insensitive, and I never heard from him again. One of the best decisions I ever made.

  234. bodemiller

    why it is so necessary to intellectualize everything and create absolute categoricals? Especially something like sex, whose true essence cannot be defined or explained, because there are so many undefinable concepts attached to it. Love, spiritual connection, confirmation of self through orgasm – these are things that can be experienced, but cannot be done justice when put into words. In and of itself, oral sex is simply one way of accessing those concepts (which ones are accessed will depend on the participants). Its only when enculturation comes into play that certain acts have certain connotations. Perhaps you are looking too much at the culture around oral sex (how other have defined it for themselves and for others in the past) and not enough at what oral sex can be (sure, you’re looking at the negatives like bad taste, physical discomfort, but what about the broader experience that some other posters have mentioned, such as making your partner happy, or how oral sex is an integral part of foreplay)

    I can’t help but feel that a lot of people posting here are trying to rationally justify their personal sexual/gender hangups by creating clever ways of holding others responsible for their troubles.

  235. Harriet

    I wasn’t going to comment, but when I saw the laughable assumption of ‘I, also, can’t imagine any woman enjoying giving blowjobs’ I felt compelled. This little piece just implies that the writer is over-intellectualising something of a non-issue to compensate for some sort of sexual hangup or prejudice.

    Giving a blowjob is something that, while not comparable to the enjoyment of sex itself, I very much enjoy doing for my partner. In an emotionally and mentally equal relationship sex has nothing to do with one partner maintaining dominance with the other’s submissiveness is reinforced. Sex in an equal relationship is about using your body to please yourself and to please your partner.

    To make the hilarious generalisation of ‘no woman, since the dawn of the patriarchal co-option of human sexuality, has ever actually enjoyed this submissive sexbot drudgery’ one has to assume, from the hysteria of the phraseology alone, that this is an unreasonable prejudice masquerading as feminist theory. That is not to say that in seperate cases, such as the porn industry, blowjobs haven’t been presented in a way to assert male superiority. But to apply the same theory to the private lives of consenting adults, or any two people in love (I assume that a man giving another man a blowjob wouldn’t be looked upon with such disgust?), is more than just silly, it’s a bit insulting.

  236. Jill

    The Blow Job Wars live on!

    Giving a blowjob is something that, while not comparable to the enjoyment of sex itself, I very much enjoy doing for my partner. In an emotionally and mentally equal relationship sex has nothing to do with one partner maintaining dominance with the other’s submissiveness is reinforced.

    Thanks, Harriet, for taking a quick break from your Stockholm Syndrome to share your glowing feelings about stuffing dude-dicks down your personal throat. And for sharing your interesting conviction that it is possible, within an otherwise ubiquitous patriarchal paradigm, to even have an “equal” relationship with a person who belongs to a higher caste than you. Ditto your notion that performing what any objective observer would have to consider submissive behavior is in no way a pornulated encapsulate of the privilege over you your dude happily experiences in every other aspect of your lives. You even admit that the behavior is not “sex itself”, yet you imagine that performing it supports your apparent claim that sex exists entirely in a political vacuum! Get on with yer bad incoherent self, Sexy!

    But kindly refrain, in the future, from telling me about your personal heterosexual turn-ons, particularly if they’re all about the joy of degradation. Does this blog look like Post Secret?

  237. Alexa

    I’m het – no way can a woman enjoy a BJ. No way!!! It’s now associated 100% with degradation. Unless you lived under a rock since the 50s – you will have the same associations the rest of us do. You cannot escape cultural influence harriet. Sod off, you mistake us for idiots.

    Go away and engulf your man’s piddle stick – I know urine and dick cheese is such a turn on. And the ‘powerrr’ ohh. Sloppy wrinkly cheese skin, yum yummm.

    You women make me as a straight woman sick!!!!

  238. Alexa

    Sick because you’re trying to sell us the patriarchy in a strawberry basket.

    When ‘ feminists’ blab on about the patriarchy as a style of free choice, you’re playing along and oppressing women just as much as the church as its biggest instrument ever did.

  239. Jill

    Alexa, I realize that this

    “Sod off, you mistake us for idiots.

    Go away and [...] yummm.”

    is merely an expression of your admirable enthusiasm for feminist consciousness-raising, but new commenters might not realize that you aren’t, as Jezebella once put it, the IBTP bouncer. You need to stop kicking people off my blog, OK? That’s my delightful privilege.

  240. Alexa

    Hahaha ‘bouncer’ :p just my enthusiasm to keep it real.

  241. Alexa

    and I’ll stop..

  242. Danielle

    Urine and dick cheese? Really?? I thought the American people were so overly ‘hygienic’ with all the circumcision and stuff! Personal hygiene is the most basic decent human courtesy to give to your sex partner, whether it’s a one-night-thing, a long-term-thing, a casual-thing. Urine, dick cheese, pulling hair, gagging. What kinda of guys have you been with, I wonder? Because in 15 years of being sexually active (with both guys and girls) I never came across such gross stuff. If your sexual experiences have been gross and bad, maybe you should start thinking about your own choices and why you make them.

  243. Alexa

    Well because the penis is what men like urinating out of. Hence the ‘urine’ traces in any BJ.

    If you’re telling me I should question my sexuality cos I don’t like sucking dick, then clearly everything goes over your head except for porn/ I.e rape acts. I don’t have to be gay just because I hate wrinkly dick skin IN MY MOUTH.

    My last very hygienic bf I told to get lost when he asked for one. And he didn’t complain. Anyone else knows where the door is.

    Blow jobs are gross and an act of degradation. Frankly I feel disturbed at you telling me I should like them.

  244. Jill

    These revolting comments will cease forthwith.

  245. Smartypants

    I’m sure Jill and others will agree that oral sex period is just gross…. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.

  1. Fiat Lux

    Startling Similarity?…

    Shorter Dawn Eden: I think premarital sex is bad, so women shouldn’t do it. Shorter Twisty Faster: I think BJs are gross, so women shouldn’t give them. Me: Both of you need to stop delivering broad-based……

  2. Women's Space/The Margins

    Feminist Hierarchies…

    Okay.
    Over at Twisty’s there is a debate (politely and respectfully) raging over women giving men blowjobs.  I did not read every post carefully, but based on what I did read, the pro-blowjob contingent greatly outnumbered the anti-blowjob conti…

  3. Huperborea

    Twisty Faster and oral sex…

    On her matriarchal anarcho-syndicalist blog “Twisty Faster” posted this concerning a woman performing oral sex on a man……

  4. Patriarchy Defeated By Fellatio; We Can All Go Home Now at I Blame The Patriarchy

    [...] I sorely underestimated the magnitude of the bang I was going to get out of all the comments in defense of blow jobs. Holy moly! What fun! Hitherto-unplumbed depths of commentarian grossness were fathomed. Hetero porn models were advocated. Quaint Freudian notions were invoked. Status quos were defended. Defensively. Some of you seized the opportunity to acquaint the group with your erotic autobiographies (don’t quit your day jobs!). Some of you even argued that blow jobs are the dudely equivalent of cunnilingus. But then someone actually used the word ‘cum’. I had to call in a haz-mat team to fumigate my office. [...]

  5. Feministe » Whither the Blow Job?

    [...] So Twisty decided to troll her own blog for her own amusement. Discussion topic? Blow jobs are gross, and no woman should perform them. Flame me if you will, but I posit nevertheless that no woman, since the dawn of the patriarchal co-option of human sexuality, has ever actually enjoyed this submissive sexbot drudgery. There’s a reason that deep-throating a funk-filled bratwurst makes a person retch.* [...]

  6. Feministe » Gag me with a rice cake.

    [...] (1) She posts a scathing (and very witty, don’t get me wrong) high polemical about some practice or another which she (a) doesn’t enjoy personally and (b) has some problems with as a patriarchy-blamin’ feminist. “Personally” doesn’t enter into it, and the OP’s tend to be about as nuanced as, well, a facial. When she does make a reference to /patriarchy, she quickly follows it with language designed to convey objective disgust: Flame me if you will, but I posit nevertheless that no woman, since the dawn of the patriarchal co-option of human sexuality, has ever actually enjoyed this submissive sexbot drudgery. There’s a reason that deep-throating a funk-filled bratwurst makes a person retch.* [...]

  7. miserablebliss… · The Funk-Filled Bratwurst Debate.

    [...] Those of you who read some of the well-known feminist blogs are aware that there’s a debate getting fired up regarding whether or not a feminist woman should give blowjobs. Whether it’s all patriarchy-worshipping or just plain gross and wrong. The point isn’t the actual blog post that inspired all the explosions, it’s the comments attached from readers. Twisty is a beautiful shit-disturber at the best of times – but even disregarding the potential for disturbing-of-said-shit, I’m stunned nonetheless. [...]

  8. Acephalous

    “Fuck Act Theory”…

    Seven times today people landed here searching for Fuck Act Theory. (The oh-so-apropos capitalization? Mine.) Let the masses concern themselves with hummer this and knob-polisher that. I choose to do these seven solid citizens a favor instead. No longe…

  9. Reclusive Leftist » Blog Archive » The only thing I’m going to say about that blowjob shitstorm

    [...] The only thing I’m going to say about that blowjob shitstorm As someone once said to me in a private email (and forgive me for quoting you, Someone): I really think Twisty ought to get a stick, post it at the entrance to her blog at about 4 foot 6 inches off the ground, like at the carnival rides, and post a sign saying “You must be smarter than this stick to comment here.” [...]

  10. Liberal Serving

    “Sex, which, along with religion, is the new religion”…

    I’m suspicious of anyone who never says anything I don’t agree with. I’m cranky and opinionated, so unless there’s a cosmic alignment of great magnitude, the chance that I’ll swallow 100% of another cranky ranter’s line is slim indeed. Twisty…

  11. Feministe » Feminist Politics of Blowjobs

    [...] Read more: Twisty (and a follow-up) Piny Amanda (and a follow-up) R. Mildred [...]

  12. The Shouty Woman » Fed up

    [...] There have been various posts lately attacking women for making certain choices about what to wear, whom to find attractive and what to do in bed (the most obvious example of the latter being Twisty’s blowjob saga, which I’m not going to comment on as a) it’s nobody’s business what I think and b) people read this blog who know me in real life). I just can’t accept this, and it’s really making me question whom I want to align myself with. [...]

  13. Enter the Jabberwock - Campfire of the Vanities

    [...] So, even though the author is trolling when she writes this article, and I promised I’d steer clear of the Patriarchy-Blaming Crowd, I have the following response: [...]

  14. Tiny Cat Pants

    The Gender Role We Leave Unexamined…

    Y’all may have missed the two humongous feminist “controversies” this past week–…

  15. Countertop Dancing » Blog Archive » Sex and Feminism

    [...] So there’s this spat going around the feminist blogs I read; its about blow-jobs and their feminist status. It started with this post at I Blame the Patriarchy and stemmed out onto Feministe, Pandagon, and many other blogs. There’s been a bunch of different sides of this issue, about the inherent submission in the act, about women’s sexual choices, and (the one I jive with the most) Jill’s post about how to mesh the need to respect individual women’s choices with the need to analyze sexual choices within our society. Just a taste: I’m no fan of shaming women for their sexual choices. I think it’s absolute bullshit to call one’s feminism into question because she gives head, or because she enjoys BDSM, or because she engages in whatever other “Patriarchy-approved” sex practice. If I can be a feminist in my make-up, skirts and toe-pinching stilletos, then you can certainly be one while you orally pleasure your male partner. … [...]

  16. eb » Do you have a tongue stud?

    [...] GFB admonished us for our man-phobia and gave us a little tongue stud lashing about how we need to get over it. No, I tell you. Simply no. I raise my head high and shout to the world, “I am man phobic! Deal with it bitch!’ I’ve kissed enough men, sucked enough cock, put up with enough unfulfilled sex and faked enough orgasms with men to walk around all man-phobic with my bad self. And I’ll have you know, I never swallowed. I refused to swallow. Speaking of – yesterday, in my cruise around the internet, with the top down and the wind in my hair, because I was a lazy slob and didn’t feel like doing anything else, I stumbled upon this insightful post. [...]

  17. Texas NOW Blog

    The great oral debate…

    So there’s been this raging controversy in the feminist blogosphere about whether women performing oral sex on men is inherently degrading. Normally I’d stay out of a discussion like this, because 1) it’s not exactly a burning political issue; and…..

  18. Les Faits de la Fiction » Blog Archive » Sometimes a blow job is just a blow job

    [...] (Thanks to Feministing for the heads-up on the article.) Related links: “Gag reflex” at Bitch|Lab. Not the most recent post, but worth another look Twisty’s original post that started the whole BJ controversy [...]

  19. And now a word from your Messiah at PunkAssBlog.com

    [...] Because I know there’s abuse out that, and I would know this from nothing more than the Twisty thread that started this whole thing, and I will not accept bussel’s lame ass sideways ad hominem attack at Twisty as a valid reason to pretend that such abuse doesn’t happen. [...]

  20. Some of My Best Friends Have Sex at PunkAssBlog.com

    [...] A lot of people in the BJ War of 2006 took it upon themselves to exactly intuit the motivations of those women who enjoy giving oral sex. Lines were drawn, blowjobs were declared unfeminist, everyone is now an anti-sex overlord, R. Mildred gave us the fellatio finger (the importance of which doesn’t lie in prostate stimulation, but in that it is the middle “fuck you” finger, as in “fuck you blowjob haters”), and 50% of Twisty’s readership decided they hated her guts for five minutes until they realized she is far too cutel for gut hatred. [...]

  21. Two things you can count on in this life: cracker power and the chance to give a BJ whenever you want at PunkAssBlog.com

    [...] I take Twisty at her word. She may wish she could eradicate all BJs. I’m sure there are people who would like to ship off all white people, too. I don’t agree with those positions, but, truthfully, whether or not you agree with those extreme positions isn’t relevant. What matters is whether their discourse is good or bad for society. [...]

  22. Raising WEG

    Sex and Sexuality…

    My post about flip-flops generated a lot of good conversation, and I appreciate that. You may not realize I appreciate your comments, because I’m always throwing aside my inbox in favor of my typepad box, but I do. Thank you….

  23. The SmackDog Chronicles

    [...] 1) Twisty, feeling bored and her occasional need to stir the pot, posts a screed about the absolute horror of blowjobs as a tool of Teh Patriarchy; she goes on and on about why any feminist or any self-respecting woman would dare resort to such a “fucking gross”, disgusting, yucky thing as to put a “funk-filled bratwurst” in her mouth. She opens her blog for those who do hummers to defend themselves. [...]

  24. Bitch | Lab » News Flash: Teh Patriarchy discovers women have asses. Film at 11!

    [...] Ever since, Teh Patriarchy has invented ways to get women to enthusiastically play the skinflute. “The money shot is one option. Teh Patriarchy doesn’t like alternative branch bank deposits for nothing. But, they really needed a way to avoid the hated and feared pussy altogether,” says DeBurg’s chief research specialist, Huff N. Puffin. “Teh Patriarchy just tells women that they are the best ever.” That way, women will knock each other down to find the nearest carrot and give it a good waxing. [1] [...]

  25. For some reason, deviantART is inaccessible. « Sara Speaking

    [...] So I’ve been reading here and here. You’ll prolly want to read through them for yourself first, though since they’re long I’ll understand if you’re not interested. [...]

  26. I think I found a new subhead for my other blog « Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing

    [...] of this juicy, juicy scandal or a nuanced position on the age-old debates about sex work, porn, blowjobs, on and [...]

  27. On Writing, Atrocity and Privilege, Redux at Faux Real

    [...] comfort level with difficult material. I suppose it’s easy to have an opinion on whether or not political women ought to be down with going down, or how to properly treat a customer service employee, but what the fuck do you do about genocide [...]

  28. Smite Me! [.net] » Blog Archive » I Blame the Patriarchy

    [...] the UK’s Medical Research Council, one more reason to hate men and their funk-filled bratwursts: The growth of cervical and womb cancers may be fuelled by a hormone-like molecule in semen, a [...]

  29. Being Amber Rhea » Blog Archive » Do as I say, and as I do

    [...] and ridiculous examples recently came from Twisty at I Blame The Patriarchy. Her iron-fisted condemnation of all blowjobs, everywhere has sparked a bit of a kerfluffle (to use Anthony’s word) in the [...]

  30. Blow-job blowhards - Salon.com

    [...] funny story. Heh heh heh. See, best I can tell, Twisty at I Blame the Patriarchy kicked it off by arguing, in response to a post on One Good Thing advising a letter-writer on how [...]

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