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Jun 16 2006

Patriarchy Defeated By Fellatio; We Can All Go Home Now

I sorely underestimated the magnitude of the bang I was going to get out of all the comments in defense of blow jobs. Holy moly! What fun! Hitherto-unplumbed depths of commentarian grossness were fathomed. Hetero porn models were advocated. Quaint Freudian notions were invoked. Status quos were defended. Defensively. Some of you seized the opportunity to acquaint the group with your erotic autobiographies (don’t quit your day jobs!). Some of you even argued that blow jobs are the dudely equivalent of cunnilingus. But then someone actually used the word ‘cum’. I had to call in a haz-mat team to fumigate my office.

And that’s not the only price I paid for my critical stance on Boo-Ya Nation’s favorite pastime. One blogger has likened me to bible-thumping zipper-cunt Dawn Eden:

“Both of you need to stop delivering broad-based pronouncements on other people’s sexual practices on the basis of what you personally object to.”

I am chastened. I’d forgotten that when it comes to sex, it is the duty of the radical feminist to shut the fuck up. Sex, which, along with religion, is the new religion, is sacrosanct territory. It is anti-feminist to point out the ideological problems with certain patriarchal sexbot traditions because so many women enjoy patriarchal sexbot traditions. It is, in fact, offensive to suggest that getting off has any untoward political ramifications at all. I mean, we’re talking about getting off. It’s the feminist nirvana. Anything goes as long as someone gets off, and besides, it’s none of my beeswax.
Like Germaine Greer always says, if you wanna nail your nutsack to a breadboard and call it sex, it’s A-OK with me!

I must have been insane to question the degrading sexual theatrics that are every woman’s birthright, when the mastery of these theatrics is her invitation to life’s rich feast. It is a well-known fact that most women spring from their beds every morning singing, “O I hope I can blow some dude today!” That poor dumbass who wrote to Flea asking for help in controlling her gagging was just an anomaly.

We all know that in a patriarchy, (and by ‘patriarchy’ I mean a social order in which all women are subject, by universal agreement, to all men), on accounta the power differential, all relationships with men are inherently inequitable.

Except, it turns out, relationships wherein women suck cock! That’s when patriarchy miraculously recedes into the aether and male privilege becomes a distant memory! No woman was ever so free as the woman with a mouth full of throbbing gristle! How could I have been so blind? Less blaming and more cocksucking, that’s my new motto! Mystery solved! The struggle is over!

119 comments

11 pings

  1. Mandos

    I haven’t read the latest batch of comments but I don’t think that’s what most posters were, um, saying.

    But I’m curious as to the presupposition here:

    “Some of you even argued that blow jobs are the dudely equivalent of cunnilingus.”

    Aside from the power difference, why is it not? Or is it JUST the power difference?

  2. paris

    If Twisty Faster wasn’t a figment of my imagination, I’d totally blow her.

  3. SingOut

    I love you, Twisty Faster.

  4. grrr kitty

    dawn eden is grosser than bjs *and* rice cakes.

  5. Ms Kate

    I’m with Mandos here. I don’t see the difference when it’s matter of people pleasuring each other in private.

    I do see the difference when it is a matter of public mystique of the blow job as an act of fealty and submission. That doesn’t mean that playing with my partner’s body parts is part of the suppression of all women.

    The difference here is context. Pick a sexual practice that you enjoy and somebody is going to think society will collapse or that it oppresses somebody that you like that. Such is what we get when we focus on sexual acts rather than sexual contexts.

    If teen girls service teen boys in the back of the school bus because they want to be popular and want favors from those boys, that isn’t a blowjob problem. That is a patriarchy problem. If a woman and her partner lick anything on each others naked bodies they can get their tongues onto in a mutual enjoyment of their sexuality, that isn’t a problem at all. Private mutual enjoyment of a sexual stimulation in a consenting context, no matter how wierd or disgusting anybody finds it, does not lead to girls believing they have to put out or bend over or suck anything in a one-sided way for social status. And if said people make sure their younger relatives understand how much better it is to seek that appropriate mutual context (rather than saying “don’t do that or talk about that becauase it oppresses women”), such liasons may actually improve the patriarchal situation – not because somebody’s penis got sucked, but because of the encouragment to be selective and to have appropriate boundaries.

    There are sexual practices that I won’t perform, and some of them are common. In inappropriate context, they can contribute to the patriarchal oppression of women, just like any sexual practice. But my insistance on my right to decline fights the patriarchy more than any list of proscribed practices, IMHO.

  6. Matt25

    “Both of you need to stop delivering broad-based pronouncements on other people’s sexual practices on the basis of what you personally object to.”

    Some people just don’t get judgmental sex pedantry.

  7. Ms Kate

    Pick a sexual practice that you enjoy and somebody is going to think society will collapse or that it oppresses somebody that you like that.

    should read “if you like that”.

  8. hedonistic

    I can’t be the only one who smiled and laughed her way through the whole thread. Certainly not EVERYONE was triggering right-and-left off the postings? My suggestion is that if, PRO OR CON, you reacted in a hostile or defensive way to what somebody wrote, regardless of whether or not that post was pro- or con-, well, maybe you should explore that.

    When I muse over chosing lesbianism, it’s because, true or not, when it comes to feminism lesbians have it so much easier than straight women. Men hold no appeal to lesbians, so it’s EASY for them to avoid the unavoidable messy politics of being intimate with Teh Oppressor. It’s EASY to say that the penis is dirty, icky, and unattractive. It’s a no-brainer that a lesbian feminist would consider a blow job godawful submissive drudgery.

    Easy for YOOS to say, I say. For the rest of us hetero and bi ladies, we’re certainly in a pickle, aren’t we? Because many of us think men are attractive and sexy. Many find the penis quite kissable, thank you very much.

    I won’t start using pithy analogies such as “like a moth to a flame,” but anyone with a brain can see where this is going. It may be apparent to a feminist lesbian that heterosexual women are Sleeping With the Enemy and that nothing good can come of it. Sometimes I feel this way too, but, DAMN, we’re we’re SEXUAL. This attitude that we should deny the lushness of our sexuality for the sake of our feminist politics is lunacy. It ain’t gonna happen. We’ll reject the attitude as Victorian prudishness and tootle off toward the sunset in search of the next orgasm, even if the end result is likely to be the equivalent a train wreck.

    What can I say? Pop some pocorn and watch the show?

  9. dalaimama

    I just adore the shit you stir up. This is the funniest thing I’ve read all week.

  10. antelope

    Hey, I know! Next let’s tackle piv sex. Now, that’s degrading!

  11. Ms Kate

    What can I say? Pop some pocorn and watch the show?

    I was well into my 20s when I figured out why my family called the kernels left at the bottom “old maids”.

  12. epmcnulty

    Did someone already mention the July issue of Vanity Fair magazine, in which bloviator Christopher Hitchens opines on the modern-day ubiquity of the blow job as a uniquely American invention akin to the handshake? He opens the article with a leering look back at Nabokov’s Lolita (the piece is illustrated with the publicity shot from Kubrick’s movie, Sue Lyon in heart-shaped sunglasses, sucking a lolly) before proceeding to rhapsodize about this former province of bad girls and prostitutes, private school boys and soldiers, which has–he stoops to tell us–actually become MAINSTREAM to the point of not being considered sex at all.

  13. radfemlezzie

    Oh, right, Twisty, how silly of us, we just don’t GET the deep love of the TRUE straight woman for the blow job because we are such big GIANT DYKES. Straight women just naturally love sucking on anything male, lesbians don’t, and never the two shall meet.

    Let’s not forget how often MEN discuss how disgusting women’s genitals are and the lengths a lot of them will go to to get out of, er, reciprocating.

    And as to context–exactly how is posting a comment here about your sexual proclivities enjoying what you enjoy in private? Once you talk about it to an uninvolved third party, darlin’, you’re participating in public sex just like everyone else, and say what you will, but as they are wont to do men have set up public sex to benefit THEM.

  14. Pony

    Can I purloine this as a posting addy?

    “bible-thumping zipper-cunt Dawn Eden”

    I am the cum word user. I felt horrid for about 2 minutes, realizing I’m hopelessly behind with-it parlance until Hedonistic used the term “explore that”.

    To think, we have Twisty here entertaining us when she could be using this time to write a book that would fucking rock the world.

  15. Chris Clarke

    I was well into my 20s when I figured out why my family called the kernels left at the bottom “old maids”.

    Because those are the ones that have maintained their integrity?

  16. Pony

    Chris I love you. Too.

  17. Ms Kate

    BWAHAHAH!

    I’ll have to share that with my very own spinster aunt.

  18. Catherine Martell

    Marvellous stuff.

    But NB, cocksuckers/suckees: Twisty’s original, splendid shitstir asserted not that women *shouldn’t* give blowjobs, but that women didn’t *enjoy* giving them.

    Nobody said ‘you mustn’t do this in your bedroom, it’s not feminist enough’. Like anti-capitalists, we feminists cannot live our entire lives in unflinching adherence to divinely ordained and unshakeable principles, because we are involuntarily embedded in the system we challenge. Many of us therefore find it possible to hold two thoughts in our pretty little heads at once:

    (a) that kneeling before a man and sucking his cock is uncomfortable, bruises your knees, stimulates your gag reflex, sometimes ends in you having to swallow some nasty salty goop, and is inherently an act of submission and debasement; and

    (b) that we might do it anyway if we want to and we like the man.

    Feel free to continue fellating the patriarchy. But please lay off all the tedious arguments about ‘But I get off on the control’/'But it pleasures me to please him’/'But I find the penis so devastatingly attractive an organ that I simply cannot control my urge to put it in my mouth’/'But my throat is full of tiny clitorises’/etc. You sound like brainwashed sexbots.

    I think the cosmetics industry is an evil conspiracy designed to undermine women, deplete their economic power and distract them from trying to take over the world. But, you know, sometimes I wear mascara. It makes life a lot simpler if I just admit to being a hypocrite, rather than trying to construct a self-justifying ‘post-feminist’ thesis in favour of blobbing crusty black muck on my eyes.

    And, by the way, this argument is a lot more fun than giving a blowjob. Or am I just doing it wrong?

  19. Sara

    Twisty, you are hilarious. Seriously, I am completely disinterested in what other people enjoy sexually, and I’ve had vicious stomach flu all week for which talk about gagging has proven most concretely untherapeutic, but it’s as dalaimama said above: you do stir shit with a certain inimitable flair.

    The only thing that could have made this post better would have been a picture of a big ol’ vegetarian enchilada.

  20. Puffin

    When I muse over chosing lesbianism, it’s because, true or not, when it comes to feminism lesbians have it so much easier than straight women. Men hold no appeal to lesbians, so it’s EASY for them to avoid the unavoidable messy politics of being intimate with Teh Oppressor.

    Wow, hedonistic, could you be more patronizing? Can we note this here and now so when the radical feminists are later being accused of starting Who’s the Better Feminist arguments we can perhaps recall how hedonistic has assumed how easy it is for lesbians to be critical of male power because men “hold no appeal” for us?

    The fact that lesbians must deal with comments like this should answer any and all questions about “how easy we have it.” And how sad that all women’s sexualities are reduced to some artificial and homophobic dichotomy determined by whether or not a penis holds some innate, psychic appeal.

    Is that really, hedonistic, how you understand your own sexuality and mine? You think I am a lesbian because I can only get excited about a certain type of physiological plumbing? You know you can’t be a lesbian because you’re too attracted to penile flesh? Is that how you understand your own sexual attraction to others? What they may or may not have hanging between their legs?

    Because that’s what I’m getting from your comments. And if that’s the case, then the likes of you and the likes of a radical lesbian (by choice, not by nature) feminist like me share a core ideological difference. I can live with that, it’s just that some else of what you’ve said here and in other (unrelated) threads resonates with me so this last bit of stuff makes me wonder where, exactly, you’re coming from. So my questions above are not necessarily rhetorical.

    And to those of you playing the “prudy Victorian” card, that’s called a strawman and it’s annoying and a waste of your time and an insult to everyone’s intelligence. I’ve no doubt that cogent arguments can be made against radical feminism’s issues with blow jobs and surely if you’re a type to enjoy Twisty’s writing you are clever enough to come up something better than “Prude!”

  21. kreepyk

    Without grossing people out (I hope) if the process is painful, uncomfortable or degrading you are doing it wrong; and that goes for just about any sex act. I think you can show some affection to the *ahem* anatomy in question without causing discomfiture.

    The fact that (a) a lot of porn is centered around a very exploitative and degrading take on this sexual act and (b) the way this plays out in the real world is often drenched in Patriarchal Bullshit is a serious problem though, and makes this particular sexual activity more “charged.”

    Stupid @#%^&* Patriarchy! I want my heterosex explotative-less!

  22. hedonistic

    Puffin, I inserted the “true or not” prase into my statement precisely to avoid an accusation such as yours. Obviously my ploy failed. Truth is, I have no idea whether or not it’s easier for lesbians, because I’m not a lesbian and have no idea what it’s like to be a lesbian. I just imagine, while fully understanding that I may be wrong. I now realise the “I imagine that” is missing from my statement. It should have been there. Whoops.

    Also, I never said, or even suggested, that it was easier to be “critical of male power.” I stated that it was easier for lesbians to avoid the messiness (pun?) that inevitably comes (augh!) from being sexually intimate with your oppressor.

    I’m typically not one to play the Victorian Prude card. I do notice this card is played a lot, especially as a knee-jerk defense by heterosexual women who are sick and tired of being told they should not be enjoying things they DO, mostly by women who don’t. HELLO? Let me go out on a limb here by speaking on behalf of other men-lovers: Call it a strawman, strawoman or whatever, tell us your attidude comes from your politics instead of from prudery. Still, when you deny the experiences of heterosexual women, it really does come off as prudish, because you’re suggesting we “really” don’t like it, and if we do, well, then we shouldn’t.

    That you suggest I’m homophobic makes me giggle a little bit, too. I’m bisexual because “it doubles my chance of getting laid” (just kidding, although I must say I didn’t choose “hedonistic” as my handle by accident!). Actually, my bisexuality is probably as political as it is biological, but as I haven’t taken the time to think it through, I can’t really say.

  23. Dr. Free-Ride

    I am hesitant about jumping in here, but given that I read the original post the same way Catherine Martell did, I kind of want to figure out the appropriate non-loaded (sorry!) analogous situation here.

    Twisty posited: No one (or at least, no woman) enjoys X as an end in itself. (She alluded to various reasons this might not be a crazy supposition — the gag reflex, the attendant fluids, etc.)

    Some posters (IIRC) claimed to enjoy the experience of X as an end in itself (and suggested that the downsides to which Twisty alluded to might be avoidable depending on technique). These objections, I take it, didn’t spark much controversy. Some people enjoy those bubble-tea drinks with the tapioca pearls at the bottom, while drinking one of those will gross me right out of town. Differences in tastes — whaddaya gonna do?

    The objections that seems to have drawn the most fire are those where the commenter claims to enjoy X as a means to satisfy some other desired end Y. For example:

    I enjoy doing X because it makes my partner happy, and I value making my partner happy.

    I enjoy doing X because it gives me a feeling of power, and I like to feel powerful.

    etc.

    Some of the responses to these comments seem, to my eye, to be either questioning whether the costs inherent in doing X are worth the benefits conferred by Y, or whether Y is an end worth valuing at all. (“Is it really worth doing *that* just to make your partner happy? Isn’t there a point of diminishing returns from which you could argue doing something less extreme than X would make your partner happy *enough*?”)

    And of course, there’s always the worry that pursuing Y as an end might somehow be feeding the Patriarchy — which, blamers know, is problematic, as feeding the patriarchy undercuts our ability to choose and pursue our own damn ends (which is, after all, what distinguishes free women from fembots).

    So, what if I enjoy doing X because it is a means to satisfying my desired end Y, but it turns out that pursuing Y feeds the patriarchy and thus undercuts my ability to freely choose and pursue my own ends? I know what Kant would say to this: you can’t consistently will Y, so valuing X as a means to Y doesn’t really give X a whole lot of value here. Also, possibly willing Y wasn’t as much of an exercise of your autonomy as you thought it was (because it feeds a system that undercuts your autonomy).

    Kant was not a terribly sex-positive guy. You know, in case that matters.

    The operative question for non-hypothetical people is how best to choose ends (and prioritize among your various ends) in a system that may be constraining your autonomy.

  24. Pony

    Can anyone give me a translation as to what this poor person just said? Or should we all just get our capes and do a rescue? Someone’s been trapped in a mouldering academic hell hole for far too long.

  25. Sam

    Dr. Free Ride made me think of a study I revisted yesterday for another debate I’m having at the moment. It was a study that showed the responses of prostituted women to the question, “Describe how you feel during an act of prostituted sex in five words.”

    Unsurprisingly, 90% of all the words were negative, but more interesting to this radfem and germane to the debate here was that the most common word given for a positive response was powerful/power.

  26. Twisty

    “Unsurprisingly, 90% of all the words were negative, but more interesting to this radfem and germane to the debate here was that the most common word given for a positive response was powerful/power.”

    Yeah, because in a patriarchy sex = domination.

  27. Ms Kate

    Yeah, because in a patriarchy sex = domination

    Have you considered selling red waist sashes as a fundraiser?

  28. JackGoff

    Well, in my relationship, I am definitely the one that takes orders. And I don’t mind it at all. Control is what comes from evil. All evil things want to control other things and bend all things to their will. I could care less about making the world what I must have it be for my own gain. I love my girlfriend and if she wants me on my knees doing her with my mouth, by god I’ll do it with a smile on my face. But I don’t care that she doesn’t like blowjobs because I get off in other ways. Sex is a team effort, not who gets the most jollies.

  29. Pony

    And prostitutes will tell you that the most requested sex act by men who don’t want to have more contact with a woman than absolutely necessary (which is all men who buy a prostitute cause why) is a blow job.

    Blow jobs rule on the drag. The medical clinic in our drag treats prostitutes mostly for mouth blisters from the condom rub. 60 blow jobs a night. Think.

    Wanna bet runner up is anal?

  30. vera

    Pony, I think it boils down to this: The patriarchy ruins sex for hetersexual women(*), and we must cope as best we can.

    * The patriarchy ruins sex for heterosexual men, too, but one hears very little protest from them.

  31. norbizness

    Hey, at least I know which posts automatically trigger a 3-day sabbatical.

  32. yankee transplant

    Classic Twisty Faster.

  33. Wolke

    “(a) that kneeling before a man and sucking his cock is uncomfortable, bruises your knees, stimulates your gag reflex, sometimes ends in you having to swallow some nasty salty goop, and is inherently an act of submission and debasement;”

    A lot of suppositions here – kneeling, bruising knees, swallowing. That’s like describing all sexual intercourse the way it was done in the old days: the woman is a warm hole for the man to fill up, and she looks up at the ceiling trying not to look disgusted or painful while the man is fucking her. I agree, that type of sexual act is an act of subbmission and debasement.

    “Feel free to continue fellating the patriarchy. But please lay off all the tedious arguments about ‘But I get off on the control’/’But it pleasures me to please him’/’But I find the penis so devastatingly attractive an organ that I simply cannot control my urge to put it in my mouth’/’But my throat is full of tiny clitorises’/etc. You sound like brainwashed sexbots.”

    It’s curious how every reason mentioned for giving blow jobs is ridiculed and exaggerated to its extreme. Someone proposing that using your mouth and tongue during sex is pleasurable by itself, or someone suggesting that it is quite reasonable for heterosexual women to like penises, suddenly finds themselves in the corner with the brainwashed sexbots. How far off reality have you drifted?

    “We all know that in a patriarchy, (and by ‘patriarchy’ I mean a social order in which all women are subject, by universal agreement, to all men), on accounta the power differential, all relationships with men are inherently inequitable.”

    Yes, but individuals can try to overcome this inherent inequity by treating each other as 100% equals, heterosexual men can be loyal to their partners by not buying into patriarchal bullshit like porn etc. It is even possible for men to understand the sex and dominance issues and act accordingly! There’s actually at least one man who is pristine with respect to porn and to whom it would never occur to exert even subtle sexual dominance on women nor on anyone else. But I can guess the reactions already, so I won’t bother people any longer with my obviously totally self-deluded, patriarchy-supportive, brainwashed hypocrite rant.

  34. JackGoff

    Well, the patriarchy is createrd and nourished by penises, so they ARE the symbol of oppression.. But not every penis is. You should (if you like penises) care more about who the penis is attached to than the penis. The penis is just the messenger, the sybolic front of the patriarchy. It is a pawn in all this. Women should not feel threatened by them, but by the true perpetuators of this shit, the insane men who think they are in charge.

  35. Beth in Michigan

    Twisty, I’m a little bit confused here. Are you trying to say that *all* hetero sex=domination? If I enjoy sex (oral, on my back, on my knees, on top, on the washing machine, wherever) do you feel that I am somehow being dominated by my male partner? Because if that is what is being asserted here, then I strongly disagree.

    If you choose not to validate the sexual choices of hetero women I don’t think that does anything to further the cause of feminism. In fact it sounds an awful like the stereotypical mother/daughter sex talk of 1955: “All men only want one thing and you won’t like it.” Really? What if I do like it? Does that make me a victim by default? Does that make me a bad feminist? Should I feel guilty because I like it? I don’t think so. Who are you to tell me what I like? Isn’t that a bit like telling a lesbian that “she just hasn’t found the right man.” No. You can paint all penis loving women with the same brush.

    This quote from CM particularly raises my hackles: “Feel free to continue fellating the patriarchy. But please lay off all the tedious arguments about ‘But I get off on the control’/’But it pleasures me to please him’/’But I find the penis so devastatingly attractive an organ that I simply cannot control my urge to put it in my mouth’/’But my throat is full of tiny clitorises’/etc. You sound like brainwashed sexbots.”

    Perhaps it’s time to rethink the tedious argument that only brainwashed sexbots can enjoy giving head. If you want to complain about how it’s usually portrayed in pornography and how that portrayal is “drenched in patriarchal bullshit” (thanks kreepyk) that’s fine, but it’s also a different argument. Don’t throw the blow job out with the cigar.

  36. Carpenter

    ‘Funk Filled Bratwust’ was pretty nasty but I confess yesterday I commented that Christopher Hitchens could probably wring a vodka Martini out of the crap under his foreskin so whatever.

    It pleases me from time to time to remember that humans are pretty much slippery snot factories oozing seebum from every possible outlet, and shedding various linings of various organs constantly. This never heald me up in the sex depatment but everyone is different, I mean some people can’t concieve of touching their own eyeball either.

    Probably young ladies would be better off before each blowjob, or any sex act, taking a minute to consider if the *really* wanna do it (‘cos they are so down with cock or ‘cos they expect more of the same in return), or are gonna just do it because other people expect it. That also goes for tying the knot or not majoring in Math.

  37. Pony

    “That’s like describing all sexual intercourse the way it was done in the old days: the woman is a warm hole for the man to fill up, and she looks up at the ceiling trying not to look disgusted or painful while the man is fucking her. I agree, that type of sexual act is an act of subbmission and debasement.”

    Well with that as intro to your sex history education you’ve saved me the pain of reading the rest of your post.

    Most of us, probably including you, wouldn’t be here if that was the way it was done “in the old days.”

    While here, so I don’t have to make another post:

    Thanks hedonistic for being one of the few who doesn’t dismiss older women as complete naifs about sex, or being embarrassed when one as old as me discusses it with you, or as one who thinks, as I do, that you’re not dead until your dead. It has always been ok for old men to be randy, this is about time for old women.

  38. Chris Clarke

    Hitchens could probably wring a vodka Martini out of the crap under his foreskin

    Ugh! That’s just… disgusting and wrong.

    Martinis do not have vodka in them.

  39. R.B.

    Oh, Christ Allmighty, Twisty. I’ve been a blameless lurker for a good long while, but I’m getting pretty sick of the sex wars. There’s a pattern here. First, you choose some sex act X that you personally don’t see the point of. Then you assert that X is inherently stupid and loserly and patriarchal and nobody could possibly enjoy it. Some readers whose sexual proclivities differ from your own point out that

    (a) They enjoy X.

    They also give explanations of what X does for them personally. The following claims then get attributed to said readers:

    (b) Using X, and only X, we can achieve equality with men and overthrow the patriarchy!
    (c) There is something wrong with women who don’t like X.
    (d) Men have a right to demand X from their spouses, lovers, or random strangers.
    (e) You too should enjoy the wonderful, life-affirming power of X!
    (f) No woman is ever coerced into X.
    (g) It is unproblematic when women are coerced into X.
    (h) The way porn depicts X is totally awesome and fun.

    Occasionally some asshat (usually male) will come along, defend (h), and get promptly banned. But the majority of readers who assert (a) are not asserting any of (b)-(h). Nor does (a) entail any of (b)-(h).

    This tends to be clearer in the food discssions. When Twisty damns frisee, and some readers point out that actually, they happen to like frisee, we don’t end up with huge internecine frisee wars. Now, I understand that the emotional timbre of frisee discussions is different from the emotional timbre of sex discussions, since none of us is at risk of having frisee cruelly shoved down our throats. But I don’t see why that gives us license to toss all distinctions to the wind and shout past each other. Shouting is fun for a while, but it does start to get old eventually.

  40. Carpenter

    Chris Clarke,
    sure they do, and extra olive juice. Just don’t let the bartender make the unholy mistake of making your dirty Martini with Absolut Tangerine. I almost died that night I tell ya.

  41. Wolke

    The description of sex I gave was a deliberately exaggerated cliche example meant to parallel the exaggerated porn cliche description Catherine M. gave of blow jobs. But I’ll just shut up now since no-one seems to actually read the comments.

  42. saltyC

    “But, you know, sometimes I wear mascara. It makes life a lot simpler if I just admit to being a hypocrite, rather than trying to construct a self-justifying ‘post-feminist’ thesis in favour of blobbing crusty black muck on my eyes.”

    What a pure sound is the ring of truth, Ms Martell.

  43. FamousSovietAthlete

    Some people enjoy those bubble-tea drinks with the tapioca pearls at the bottom, while drinking one of those will gross me right out of town.

    I’m a brainless bubble-teabot.

  44. Mandos

    Same here! I love me some bubble tea.

  45. Dr. Free-Ride

    should we all just get our capes and do a rescue?

    The rescue party should bring coffee. And mojitos, if at all possible.

  46. thebewilderness

    Gad, I love you guys.

  47. Carpenter

    Yeah, whats with anal sex nowadays? I’ve heard more absolute bullshit than bean night at the rodeo about anal sex from guys recently.

    For example if a woman sticks her finger up your ass while giving you a blow job it reall means SHE wants to be done up the ass but is too shy to ask for it.

    To which I reply, when you watcha all that anal hard core porn is it ’cause you secretly want a two foot dildo your pooper?

    Then they protest vioently that women are dfferent. I blame the patriarchy. Although it would make a hell of a lot of sense if they did want something up their ass, it certainly isn’t manly to ask for it.

    I am with Dan Savage on this one all the way, and guy who wants to do his girlfriend up the but must first master the act by sticking things up his own ass. To that I would add must also consent to being done up the ass by his strap-on clad girlfriend.

    In their long sex lives people with undoubtedly cram things in every hole they have, cover themselves in every substance imaginable, submit sticking out parts to be swallowed in the holes of others, dress in inumerable ridiculous costumes, and swing from every avaible hanging structure. I think thats all great, and I’m all for it. I just wish other people didn’t ruin it for me by bringing all this shit about whos the only one that gets to stick what up whos ass. Goddamn!

  48. Carpenter

    zipper cunt? nyyyaa!

  49. antelope

    R.B. has got me thinking that the next time some asshat sneaks arugula into my salad, I will simply have to go & find me someone I can give a blowjob to ASAP – it’s one of the few flavors strong enough to really get rid of that horrendous arugula aftertaste.

    Thanks for reminding me what I truly care about, R.B. – making sure that the lovers of “rocket” fully understand just how perverse, disgusting, misguided, and un-American they really are.

  50. hedonistic

    (waves gaily at Pony!)

  51. Delphyne

    How come so many people are shocked at the notion of men not having their cocks sucked by women?

    Is this really a new idea for all the feminists and feminist supporters here? It’s not exactly revolutionary. Or maybe it is.

  52. Ron Sullivan

    Oh pooh. Never mind all the analysis, pedantry, advocacy, or the rest of the perversions. You wanna change the attitudes of yourself and those around you vis-a-vis blowjobs, get braces on your teeth.

  53. Elinor

    God damn, I had no idea there were so many people out there who took blowjobs so seriously.

    Honestly. Twisty posts an entry that basically boils down to “EW GROSS!” and next thing I know people are talking about Kant.

  54. Ms Kate

    Patriarchy: 1, blowjobs: 0

  55. Pony

    Oh I read it Wolke. I get it too. Don’t quit your day job.

  56. Pony

    “Shouting is fun for a while, but it does start to get old eventually.”

    Was that another shot at ageing?
    Eh?

  57. bitchphd

    Can anyone give me a translation as to what this poor person just said? Or should we all just get our capes and do a rescue? Someone’s been trapped in a mouldering academic hell hole for far too long.

    Yeah, taking things like ethics seriously is a huge waste of time. How dare you, Dr. Free-Ride?

  58. Chris Clarke

    Honestly. Twisty posts an entry that basically boils down to “EW GROSS!” and next thing I know people are talking about Kant.

    Twisty, I know what you’re expecting me to say here, but I’m just not gonna do it. I’ll send along more chocolate instead.

  59. Pony

    mojitos???

    I’ll bring poutine. At least I know what that is. And we can discuss the ethics of animals in research a bit more. I have some interesting court docs to show you.

  60. la Beylita

    Mojitos are rum drinks where the rum is muddled with mint, sugar and fresh lime. I’m not sure how well they would go with poutine.

  61. Anne Nonymous

    kneeling before a man and sucking his cock is uncomfortable, bruises your knees, stimulates your gag reflex, sometimes ends in you having to swallow some nasty salty goop, and is inherently an act of submission and debasement

    Wait, people still do the kneeling on the floor in front of the man thing? I thought that was only in pr0n. Kneeling on the bed between his legs saves you the knee-bruises and the neck cramps, while preserving the degradation and funk-filled bratwurst factors that so please him. It’s win-win!

  62. hedonistic

    I know. I’ve never actually done the on-the-knees ANYTHING. Or any of those things one sees in the icky pr0n movies, including anything worth gagging over. I suppose if that kind of ickiness were my personal experience, I’d hate BJs too.

  63. Anne Nonymous

    Also, FWIW, I think “funk-filled bratwurst” is the funniest description of male genitalia that I’ve seen in ages.

  64. Chris Clarke

    Make my funk the p-funk, I like my funk uncut.

  65. Pony

    Oh I was hoping it was something you could wrap a taco around.

    Mint, rum and poutine? Now that’s truly gag-worthy. Blecch, just blecch.

  66. Pony

    Yeh I do agree with you there Vera.

  67. Qalyar

    Responding to specific Twisty-quotes — and, yes, I’m quite aware of the sense of irony that defines the quoted post:

    “I am chastened. I’d forgotten that when it comes to sex, it is the duty of the radical feminist to shut the fuck up.”

    I would think that it is, or ought to be, the duty of the radical feminist to draw the distinction between actions and the perception that the patriarchy has ascribed to those actions. Sex is thus not dirty or evil, because it is a natural and enjoyable activity, for either gender, and any orientation.

    “I must have been insane to question the degrading sexual theatrics that are every woman’s birthright, when the mastery of these theatrics is her invitation to life’s rich feast.”

    I don’t have any objection to challenging the theatrics. In fact, I agree with that approach. Regarding the topic at hand, oral sex as depicted in pornography bears little resemblance to oral sex enjoyed between mutually loving and trusting partners. Just as heterosexual sex doesn’t equate to Pavlovian skirt-dropping for the pizza boy because the doorbell rang.

    “Some of you even argued that blow jobs are the dudely equivalent of cunnilingus.”

    Dudely? I’ll avoid whatever connotative element was meant there. But let’s strip away the cultural conditioning. Fellatio is oral sex performed on a male. Cunnilingus is oral sex performed on a female. Neither, for what its worth, speaks to the gender of the person actually performing the act. Fundamentally, what is the difference? Both pleasure the receiver directly, and the performer only indirectly (in the normative case). Both have roughly the same health and hygeine issues (fellatio with condom is rare, but I’d warrant not more so than cunnilingus with dental dam or equivelent). The only differences, really, are that fellatio involves (or might involve) male ejaculate, and that fellatio obviously involves a man. There are plenty of solutions to the first part if that is problematic. Stop before orgasm, say. Or don’t swallow. Or snowball him — turnabout IS fair play, and feminism is about equality, yes?

    But if the distinction that makes cunnilingus okay and fellatio oh-so-terrible is that it involves a man, then the patriarchy is still winning. No longer is the patriarchy demanding submission de jure. Instead, the patriarchy wins because women reject out of hand actions that CAN be used (and have been, don’t get me wrong) to enforce the submission of other women. That’s still not a success for the ideals of radfem.

    “It is anti-feminist to point out the ideological problems with certain patriarchal sexbot traditions because so many women enjoy patriarchal sexbot traditions.”

    And this strikes me as conflating the activity with the perception. Again, can a woman enjoy providing oral sex (or any other female-submissive sexual activity, such as bondage) in and of their own free will, despite the fact that the patriarchy encourages an expectation of this behavior?

    It would appear that, as a straight white male in my mid-to-late 20s, I’m wandering somewhat close to one of the warnings in the site’s FAQ. I don’t argue my point out of a belief that I’m smarter than Twisty, as the FAQ might suggest, however. I do argue my point from my own support of (albeit not so radical) feminism and opposition to the admittedly pervasive societal bias against women. Because men CAN blame the patriarchy, too.

  68. al

    “That you suggest I’m homophobic makes me giggle a little bit, too. I’m bisexual”

    Bi’s aren’t immune from homophobia, and lesbians aren’t immune from biphobia. Sadly.

  69. Flamethorn

    Aaaaaaaaaaargh, every time someone says “Christopher Hitchens” I read it as Christopher WALKEN, which is odd in a blowjob context.

  70. bigbalagan

    The Shorter Twisty: Social existence is saturated by the fact of patriarchal domination. Think about it the next time you’re enjoying a blowjob.

    I’m down with Dr. Free-Ride. Defending the joys of blowjobbery is not the issue. There are seamless connections between consensual bratwurst consumption in Seattle and sexual slavery in Bangkok. It doesn’t invalidate pleasure, but it does raise some Very Interesting Questions.

  71. Burrow Klown

    I love Twisty.

    I’m typically not one to play the Victorian Prude card. I do notice this card is played a lot, especially as a knee-jerk defense by heterosexual women who are sick and tired of being told they should not be enjoying things they DO, mostly by women who don’t. HELLO? Let me go out on a limb here by speaking on behalf of other men-lovers: Call it a strawman, strawoman or whatever, tell us your attidude comes from your politics instead of from prudery. Still, when you deny the experiences of heterosexual women, it really does come off as prudish, because you’re suggesting we “really” don’t like it, and if we do, well, then we shouldn’t.

    There are plenty of straight women who do or have done these things that get called prudes too for critiques such as Twisty’s. I may not be straight, but I have been known to have sex with guys and I’m a proud member of the “Hairy Legged Prude” brigade. I’m even making t-shirts. Don’t believe me? Try here or here, or here. (There are so many.) Just because I am a spinster in training does not necessarily for me mean no more sex or that I don’t enjoy sex, it just means I like being on my own and don’t want a relationship. So there.

  72. Burrow Klown

    I forgot…can we make Vegetarian poutine? I love me some of that! (Without the deadly mushroom gravy…I forgot what we substituted but it was deeee-licious.) Mmmmm veggie poutine without the trip to the hospital. YAY POUTINE!

  73. MissIzzy

    Just remember, the ancient Romans couldn’t stand oral sex of either variety. Why? Because they couldn’t figure out who was dominant.

  74. Ann Bartow

    Twisty,
    Not sure if you read what Heart had to say about this – her commentary is available here: http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2006/06/15/feminist-hierarchies/

    I liked what she had to say a lot. Your post was very useful because it created a place for women who don’t like giving blow jobs to express this, or to learn that they are not alone. Heart expressed this better than I could and I wanted to make sure you saw her post. Warmest regards.

  75. vera

    Every time Twisty brings up a hard core subject — porn, specific sex acts, etc. — some variation on the present debate ensues. Some people defend the heterosexual behavior in question (blow jobs, rolling skating in lingerie, viewing porn) as FUN, some people accuse Twisty and her band of radical feminist lesbians as being a bunch of killjoys who don’t understand anything anyway, and on it goes.

    I have a proposal: let’s agree that patriarchy has thoroughly screwed up sex, especially for heterosexual women, by feeding us images of women as sex class from the time we’re old enough to open up our eyes and look at magazines and billboards. Let’s agree that in spite of it all, heterosexual women are going to have sex, even though we drag around our sad patriarchal baggage.

    Surely we can hold two conflicting ideas at once! (1) I am a member of the sex class, and that sucks and makes it complicated to have sex with guys. (2) I’m going to have sex anyway.

    There. Not so hard! Day-to-day life within the confines of the patriarchy is filled with contradictions!

    (There is a place where all the contradictions we hold inside meet in harmony, where they cancel each other out and all accounts are zeroed. It’s on the far side of five dried grams of mushrooms, is all.)

  76. vera

    Also, what is poutine?

  77. saltyC

    Burrow Klown,

    I know what you mean, I am one of those non-practicing-heteros. For now anyway.

    —-

    hanging around the twisty pad now feels like after a tornado hit and the debris is still lying around. I almost feel guilty for the pleasure I took in reading all the acromonious posts, but grateful for a forum in which to question the joys of bj. Like Catherine Martell said, it’s better to be conflicted about something you do than to pretend it’s not problematic.

    If where you stand is dictated by where you sit, where I sit is as a mother of a baby girl. Many a Lioness has been observed leaving the pride when she has a cub, because she can feed her cub first, whereas in a pride the big male eats first. I can raise this girl better on my own than with her father around, I am free to protect and nurture her in ways that her father would call spoiling.

    Being the mother of a girl radicalizes me more than anything.

  78. vera

    saltyC: Amen to that.

  79. Lindsay B

    Excellent comment, Dr. Freeride.

    Twisty, the title of this thread cracks me up.

  80. KathyR

    Did he really say “broad-based?”

    -snort-

  81. Pony

    It’s one of those things you only eat when you hate the world and don’t care if you’re arteries are clogging all to hell because, well, you just don’t care:

    French fries, gravy (preferably delicious and made properly none of that ersatz greasy stuff) with a handful of cheese curds on top.

    It’s French Canadian. I can’t find a picture. Lucky you.

  82. R.B.

    Antelope, this argument about arugula is pointless and divisive. If you like it, eat it, if you don’t like it, don’t eat it, and we can all join together to combat chefs who sneak the stuff into unclearly labeled salads against the will of their patrons. There’s no need to hurl epithets at us rocket-munchers, and then act all confused when we get offended. This infighting is distracting us from the big issue: how Lean Cuisine (TM) an unspeakably nasty tool of the patriarchy.

  83. Mandos

    I disagree. I have some Lean Cuisines in my freezer right now. I admit it! I find lean cuisines sometimes genuinely tasty! I get tired of making jhinge dopiaza (that’s a kind of shrimp curry) and chicken in sundried tomato cream sauce with fettucine. Leave me alone with my somewhat stale chicken pecan from Stouffers!

  84. Mandos

    Oh, and poutine is the greatest. Yes, poutine is the ideal food for feeling sorry for yourself, which is why it’s such a Canadian dish. It’s best purchased from a chipwagon in the winter in downtown Montreal or Ottawa (haven’t tried the Quebec City version). I like to put pepper on top of mine. Some may consider this heresy.

  85. crow

    Carpenter, I’m impressed. Actually, I’m quite impressed by all things Twisty, including the intelligent blaming going on (not to imply that all of it is)

    Anyways, after reading this I find I want a good martini, and to share a few thoughts of my own…

    Some of the best sex I ever had with a man involved a strap on. He loved it. It gave me the distinct impression that there is a great deal of power tripping involved in hetero sex.

    2. I remember being married and feeling like an owned whore. I used to give blow jobs so I wouldn’t have to let him fuck me.

    3. These days lesbianism looks much more attractive, if only because the people attached to that particular plumbing seem more “human” to me and less inclined to treat me like some inferior being by virtue of my own plumbing… but I have no idea how to weild a double ender… so I remain my own spinster aunt. And feel sorry for the popcorn left in the bottom of the bucket.

  86. wabewawa

    French fries, gravy (preferably delicious and made properly none of that ersatz greasy stuff) with a handful of cheese curds on top.

    It’s French Canadian. I can’t find a picture. Lucky you.

    La Poutine

    Oh, wow. Some things really never, ever should go in anyone’s mouth.

  87. Pony

    mandos said:

    “Oh, and poutine is the greatest. Yes, poutine is the ideal food for feeling sorry for yourself, which is why it’s such a Canadian dish.

    OT: Did you read Heather Mallick (cbc.ca) on the burgeoning and sickening Canadian racism. Ewwwwwww. I love so many things about my American neighbours. Why can’t we ape the good stuff. Why do we have to get all booya bush?

  88. Mandos

    As for poutine, I wrote a post containing some fulsome praises on one of my blogs:

    http://politblogo.typepad.com/politblogo/2006/01/the_wonderfulos_1.html

    Unfortunately, I suddenly stopped updating my blog, and I don’t know why.

    As for racism in Canada and the Toronto Scare, that’s an issue that concerns me very directly. From my other blog (much more recently updated):

    http://www.la-mancha.net/?p=1396

    Canadians are often very smug wrt the US, but I feel that some of the movements in the US have a creativity and vibrancy that doesn’t currently exist in Canada. The largest civil rights equivalent—Quebecois nationalism—has largely been coopted, seamlessly, by neoliberalism, at least it it’s Official Politics incarnation. The rest of the Canadian left is subsumed by infighting, an online example of which I experienced recently quite painfully (the breakup of babble, and then the breakup of the breakup).

  89. Beth in Michigan

    Poutine? Finally, something on this thread that stimulates my gag reflex! You people are sick! But that’s okay, my husband and oldest son swing that way too, so I’m down with it, as long as I don’t have to watch you sick food perverts eat it. (Shudder!)

    Crow, I’m so sorry your marriage was like that. That is so wrong in so many patriarchally blame worthy ways. I’m glad you left that destructive relationship.

    Vera, I’m with you. Pass the mushrooms.

  90. lila

    “kneeling before a man and sucking his cock is uncomfortable, bruises your knees,…”

    Um, who kneels these days? I prefer a comfy chair with the patriarch standing at attention before me. Why should’t I be comfortable?

    Like frisee, keep the bjs off your plate if you don’t care for them, but don’t outlaw them for the rest of us!

  91. figleaf

    “by ‘patriarchy’ I mean a social order in which all women are subject, by universal agreement, to all men..”

    Twisty, if that’s what you mean by ‘patriarchy’ then given that understanding everything you say makes total sense. Thank you.

    figleaf

  92. Whitters

    Catherine said:

    Feel free to continue fellating the patriarchy. But please lay off all the tedious arguments about ‘But I get off on the control’/’But it pleasures me to please him’/’But I find the penis so devastatingly attractive an organ that I simply cannot control my urge to put it in my mouth’/’But my throat is full of tiny clitorises’/etc. You sound like brainwashed sexbots.

    But…WHY should we lay off saying that we do enjoy performing fellatio if we, by some miracle of nature, DO in fact enjoy it? How does enjoying giving my man head make me a “brainwashed sexbo[t]?”

    Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and preference. I’m not saying that women SHOULD enjoy giving guys head–probably most of them don’t (as I’ve never taken a poll, I wouldn’t know). But that doesn’t mean that you should condemn those of us who voice a certain preference.

    I love giving head to my guy. I enjoy every aspect: the feeling of his penis in my mouth and throat; his response; his ejaculation and my subsequent swallowing. Why is that so wrong? I’m not saying that anyone else needs to enjoy giving head, or that women who don’t enjoy it are somehow “brainwashed.” And I’m not saying that the very idea of fellatio isn’t somehow a power/control issue. I’m just saying that, dammit, I like sucking cock. There should be no shame in that.

  93. Whitters

    Surely we can hold two conflicting ideas at once! (1) I am a member of the sex class, and that sucks and makes it complicated to have sex with guys. (2) I’m going to have sex anyway.

    vera, I completely agree with you. Very well-said.

    What chaps my ass is that some people seem to think that, if a woman enjoys performing fellatio, she is somehow “brainwashed” and/or “not feminist enough.” I can’t stand this self-righteousness, this holier-than-thou attitude…this conditional feminism. I don’t take the concept of fellatio personally, but I do take it personally what it’s implied that I and other women who share my preference are “brainwashed sexbots.”

    Of course sex is complicated. Culture and society has seen to that, making it terribly difficult, especially for women in search of sexual relations that do not degrade her. But at some point we have to make personal choices. As vera said, we can know that–in the grand scheme of things–these are complicated issues that need to be addressed and challenged. But for our personal preferences…well, that’s all on us.

    Would sex be as complicated in a matriarchal society? Would we have men postulating on the control issues inherent in cunnilingus? I honestly don’t know…I’m just wondering.

  94. jami

    “Or am I just doing it wrong?”

    yes. i tried to link a very helpful how-to from babeland in the previous thread, but the spambot, um, ate it.

    once a woman has decided that blowing a lovely feminist man (can o’ worms) won’t perpetuate the patriarchy, it would be good for her to learn how not to gag herself while doing so. but perhaps spambots have a rule that all blowjobs perpetuate the patriarchy and thus women who engage in them should gag.

  95. GigHarbor

    At the age of 17 and as a seeker of truth and knowledge, I interviewed a sexually adventurous Alto. I had no information of my own: “I’d only ever kissed before….”

    What does semen look like?
    What does it taste like?
    Why would you swallow it?

    It’s not giving you an orgasm then why would you do such a thing??????

    Her response?
    “Because they like it so much!”

    I thought, this is truly the epitome of the Golden Rule.
    Do unto others as you would have others do to you!

  96. Lytonya

    I am late in coming to the party as usual. Well… “long time reader, first time poster”

    i said this over at Pandagon:

    R. Mildred said:
    “those of us with two brain cells to rub together and an ability to actually connect in a sexually intimate way with other human beings of a male persuasion tend to be able to find ways to invite men into our beds without turning it into a threesome with the patriarchy.”

    I read this and had to pause. And read it again… wait a second… why is that bothersome? is it really, substantively addressing Twisty’s supposed point? No… what is it then? And then I got it: that is, point blank, straight woman homophobia directed at lesbians for not being loving enough (or something like that) to love the cock.

    period.

    i don’t even really care about this subject… i haven’t been able to come up with an opinion that means anything to me… but the homophobia this has brought out in supposedly progressive people is telling.

    As far as I’m concerned, it was pretty obvious that Twisty was tryin’ to twist everyone for fun and everyone fell for it. What I am in AWE over is the complete silence over the fundamentally homophobic undercurrent stirrring up in the muck.

    At BEST the idea is apparently that gay women should shut the fuck up since we (no longer) have sex with men… But I think closer to the point is that gay women should shut the fuck up because we are defective due to our inability or refusal to love the cock.

    Fuck you all very much. I feel completely unwelcome and unwanted in the coversation and Mildred’s post clarified and solidified that opinion BEYOND doubt.

    No wonder I have found I feel less comfortable around straight women I don’t know than straight men. The men usually aren’t a threat because they don’t find me threatening… but fundamentally, a lot of straight women find gay women threatening and I could never get why before today… I swear, I thank you for that… I finally get it… it’s not that y’all think we want you… it’s that you think we’re defective little loveless bitches who don’t need men… and if we don’t and you do does that mean something? i don’t know (i doubt love could be so universally damning though) and I don’t give a shit… but i’m not defective because cock-smell bothers me and i don’t like male sperm. i’m not defective for generally not finding men cute or adorable. i’m not defective for my sexuality. i’m not incapable of loving and enjoying sex as much as a straight woman just cause i don’t want to love or have sex with men.

    ****and even IF someone was saying straight women are (it’s an overly defensive stretch)… how fucking brilliant are you that the best fucking thing you can come up with to say is just a complete dismissal of gay women? great discourse.****

    Why haven’t you addressed this Amanda? Has it really passed by you without notice? I’m not paranoid… I don’t find homophobia under rocks and leaves… seriously, R. Mildred (if you’re still lurking which I guess I doubt and there’s no way in hell i’m ever going back to Punkass): as a gay woman, I am thankful in this moment that you are not an acquaintance. the utter disdain you have shown… i don’t even disdain republicans like that. i feel gross having read it. i think i need a shower and to be grateful that my straight female friends don’t think less of me for not falling all over myself for cock. how fucking easy was it for you to be (not) so subtley hostile and homophobic? it seemed so easy as to require not a thought at all.

    finally, to paraphrase: some people are super simplistic two brain celled creatures–whatever thoughts they manage to rub together.”

    and further:

    Key words: TWO BRAIN CELLS, ABILITY, CONNECT, INTIMATE.

    You can apologize for her if you like, but she was TRYING to be hostile and insulting and it was THROUGH the suggestion of the inferiority of sexuality that isn’t hers. Twisty, even if you disagree, wasn’t saying straight women are inferior if they like cock.. she actually said that she didn’t believe anyone really did like cock… and, again, even if she did say it was inferior, shame on people letting the conversation drag into blathering hate like that.

    so, again… bullshit. she absolutely WAS saying fuck you if you don’t like cock.

    even if her ORIGINAL point, or overall point was a defense of straight women liking cock… she didn’t do that… she attacked a lesbian for questioning it ON THE BASIS of her being a lesbian and not liking cock and that somehow that meant she couldn’t get it.

    I call bullshit.”

    and finally:

    THAT sentence, IN CONTEXT is homophobic.

    if she was just saying that straight women can get pleasure from giving head… she could have just said it… it was really easy to type and even I as a supposedly man-hating dyke do not feel the slightest icky for the thought or the words. she didn’t. she went out of her way instead… anytime people go out of their way to make a simple idea complicated supposedly in defense of this or that thing they “hold dear” you can rest assured it’s because they’ve taken at least a brief detour into blaming it on some minority group directly or reflectively or otherwise. the trick is to always surround it with an otherwise plausibly rational point and possibly one or two emperical points of evidence–and usually also to use short sentences so it SOUNDS like maybe you’re being conversational and direct.

    tah-dah.”

    anyway, i really don’t know if i agree with you or not… except that I don’t entirely believe you were dictating a point in the first place… there was something very socratic about it i thought.

    i guess i’m a little shocked though. seriously creepy homophobia.

    you don’t even want to know about the comments on salon. but I will paraphrase for you anyway. apparently this is radical feminism (i guess) and apparently all radical feminists are dykes (i didn’t get the memo) and apparently all dykes don’t like having sex with men AND apparently all dykes don’t want ANYBODY else to have sex with men and ESPECIALLY all dykes don’t want ANYBODY to ENJOY sex with men… this, so the aregument goes, explains why we are evil and should suck cock.
    thanks Twisty

  97. hedonistic

    Wow. Not to feed the flame or anything, but . . . I just ran through the thread looking for homophobic statements suggesting lesbians ought to love cock, and I couldn’t find a single one. And frankly, I’m tired of witnessing feminists saying “fuck you” to each other. Enough already?

    Now excuse me while I go bite a corn dog.

  98. Pinko Punko

    Mega dittoes to hedonistic.

    Hello, moderation.

  99. Kate

    Yow Lytonya, don’t burn yourself into oblivion.

    Oh blah, blah. I just went on and on and repeated what everyone said and deleted about five times, but I can’t shorten.

    Lytonya, I don’t hate on lesbian woman and I am at a loss as to why I would find a lesbian woman threatening. A lot of gay people I’ve known are pretty angry and understandably sensitive to any slight. I would be a fool to pretend that lesbians have it easy, as many het women are inclined to assume.

    The number of women I’ve met who are willing to look seriously at their complicity to the patriarchy is few. Many women have their own journeys to take to independence and since women are oppressed still in horrible ways, to expect that all ‘get it’ right now is ludicrous.

    I wish that weren’t true.

    Fellatio, pardon me, though just isn’t the issue, its only a part of the bigger picture. Woman who place themselves in relationships where they must engage in unsatisfying and even hurtful acts abound.

    As an intermediate blamer, I think it my duty to instruct and empower other women if they so wish to understand a little more than what they do, not to flame and isolate them. Those who don’t see their role in the big picture, but are sunk in an oppressive, stifling relationship often will express their disappointment in other ways, or worse yet, direct it at themselves and/or other women they see as more free as they.

    Like someone said prior, it isn’t really about the cock itself, but the person attached to it. Indeed. To say that cock is gross, is well, rather stating one’s own personal preference. Frankly I think carpet munching is gross and yet if my man wants to imbibe, who am I to stop him? Oh I try to suffer through it:)

    I’d be damned if I’d stick my face in a woman’s snatch, no thanks. But I don’t begrudge anyone their right to engage in such, long’s they don’t do it by force or with force. Then like anything else, it becomes a whole nother ballgame.

    There. That’s enough on that thank you.

  100. shawn

    Let us be honest people, you want to beat a patriarchal society then grab them by what really hurts,the twwig and berries. To control the system you can’t fear the penis, you got to control it. Raise the male children to treat women the way we want them to treat us, like the higher evolved species we are. But do it sneaky, with love.

  101. octogalore

    I think a lot of this is missing the point. Assuming the overall point is to avoid conspiring with or enabling the patriarchy, blowjobs aren’t even the tip of the iceberg — they’re not even on the iceberg. If you are in a healthy relationship with someone you love, then both people will typically want to do most or all of what makes the other person feel good, and won’t want to feel good at the cost of the other person not enjoying themselves. If you’re not in this kind of relationship, then whether or not you give blowjobs is hardly the key issue.

    Possibly it is comforting to talk about something that’s within our control. Like blowjobs. If you want to do it, do it. And you’ll find someone who’s receptive. If you don’t, then don’t.

    Whatever bedroom politics are obsessed about by those who qualify themselves as “radical,” to me the biggest battles are those we can’t control. Like the workplace. There are many insidious and subtle (and some less than subtle) ways that the patriarchy has its way in that environment, and the advances and retreats made there affect our home life in much more dramatic ways than our blowjob strategies will. We’re not completely powerless over the workplace, but it’s much more difficult than deciding what kinds of things to do in the bedroom, and not as much fun. But this is where the real battles of feminism will be won or lost.

    Deciding not to give blowjobs, like not wearing makeup or clothing that men find attractive, so as to feel that one is upholding some rigid notion of what it is to be a feminist, doesn’t really do one iota for the cause. If you can do these things (assuming you want to and get pleasure from them), while keeping your eye on the real ball, you’re more likely to have a larger impact on the world outside your analyst’s couch. Keeping the debate and the choices on the blowjob/makeup level is like Escher’s staircases… lots of effort, going nowhere.

  102. octogalore

    why was my post of yesterday blocked? There was nothing inflammatory about it. I was excited about contributing to this site, but now I’m disgusted at being prevented from sharing my thoughts.

  103. Mar Iguana

    Not to worry, octogalore. The IBTP spamulater is like patriarchy: arbritrary. Twisty has advised Blamers not to get anxious. Don’t take it personally, it’ll probably show up very soon.

    See above: “The spamulator may hold the occasional comment for moderation. Do not have a cow. It is just a robot.”

  104. Mar Iguana

    Oops. See below, rather.

  105. octogalore

    Thanks, MarIguana. I get it; only, it was a few days ago, and I’d assume if it was going to appear, it would have. Since I foolishly didn’t save what turned out to be a laboriously long post (work being slow this time of year, etc), I’d hate to (and am much too lazy to) recreate it. It only represents my own $.02, but that said I’d hate to lose the effort and the resulting critical commentary.

  106. Beth in Michigan

    Hey Twisty! This discussion was referenced in the Village Voice yesterday and I don’t see it mentioned here yet so, here’s the link just in case you’re interested:

    http://villagevoice.com/people/0629,bussel,73845,24.html

  107. ae

    My delicate constitution would not permit me to review all of the commentary on this, the Shot Heard ‘Round the World, but I had to chime in to say that this is the.best.post.title.evar.

  108. Mar Iguana

    From the VV article: “Ladies, be warned: Your pussies are causing the downfall of society.”

    And, none too soon.

  109. Mar Iguana

    Ladies?! Oh, warn this.

  110. Beth in Michigan

    ae, I think you mean the *money* shot heard round the world. I only hope that the fall out from this discussion is providing Twisty with some entertaining reading to brighten her recovery from surgery.

  111. saltyC

    According to the Lusty Lady, Feminists give “no credence given to strippers or adult performers, who they see as airheaded sluts.”

    I suppose the johns and club promoters aren’t the ones labeling hookers that way. I suppose that label was invented by feminists.

    It’s great that Twisty made a mainstream columnist twist, though. Maybe she’ll inadvertently poison the minds of submissive girlfriends all over the place.

  112. Caukee

    I’m new here, and trying to catch up on All Things Twisty. I am conflicted, so here is my mix of reactions. Not that you have to give a rat’s ass.

    First, Twisty, clever one, well played. Why wait for your adoring fans to send you entertainment suitable for your advanced aesthetic when you can toss out some bait, sit back and harvest at will ? I am in awe. Though I doubt even you expected all this. As I went through the posts, I found myself thinking of Twisty’s “trolling” in a way that led to this little head-movie:

    WARNING – sensitive veg/vegans alert : crustaceans may be injured in my fantasty

    Twisty sitting on a riverbank on a lovely temperate day. She ties a chicken neck to a string and tosses it in. She’s smiling while she waits, net and bucket handy. She may have a beautiful dog or two with her. As I continue in my reading, the Twisty story spins on with Twisty catching a mess of crabs, and ending with Twisty and friends sitting at a table covered with newpapers and wine glasses and demolished crabs, full and happy. As the day fades, they watch the fireflies dance.

    Beats the hell out of cancer camp.

    Secondly, the serious. I’m less interested in addressing the particulars of the discussion itself than in the way it’s conducted. Although I love a good rigorous debate, I guess it never makes me happy when women attack each other [men-never thought about it. Later, maybe]. Part of me wants to bring in Strega to kick some ass, though then we’re into another power dynamic. I got some good laughs, for which I thank you; I also cried, feeling such pain from many of you, and of course I blame the patriarchy.

    When I go to read a post anywhere, my immediate desire is to be enlightened or entertained, preferably both. But I also want to hear and respect and love my sisters who are in great pain and who need to express all the negativity and anger which the patriarchy engenders. We’ve all been there. We continue to live there. Though I’m very old, and I’ve heard much of it before, its importance is not diminished. These are the stories that women live in the patriarchy. Whether that story is the homophobia a lesbian feels from us hets, or the wife who felt owned, it belongs to us all. I still have lots to learn from you. Thank you.

    Now behave before I send in my sister [whom I'll call MsT, rhymes with Twisty], the World’s Most Awesome Preschool Teacher.

  113. Caukee

    Just to clarify: My comments about bringing in outside help were meant to be humorous. As a newcomer to Twistyland, I realize you don’t know me, so let me reiterate. I mean no disrespect, M.Twisty, though I have admired the policies of TWOP and the strictness of Strega in particular. In my crankiness – my natural state, get used to it – the idea of a moderator to lend a hand in your idjitdogkicker-induced time of need was appealing, even though the frenzy has passed. Of course, those TWOP discussions are mostly about TV, not important things like blow jobs and lizards. A mighty handsome lizard, too.

    Still, sometimes one can use a hand keeping the younguns corralled, and it’s then that you might wish for MsT. In MsT’s room, everybody gets lots of love, everybody gets respect, and MsT is the law. Nobody pulls any patriarchal gender role crap on her or her kids or in her presence. Even if she hadn’t produced the Most Excellent Niece, she’d be my hero.

    Yeah, I’m off-topic. I couldn’t possibly read or write another word on the actual topic.

  114. Pony

    Here’s a little something for all the blamers.

    Scroll down to the You Tube thing called Ketchup Effect. I’m giving you this off some guy’s blog because it requires too much effort to get from You Tube, where you have to register for it. {This blogger can just lay awake nights wondering why he’s getting so many hits from IBTP}.

    Ketchup Effect:
    http://peterrost.blogspot.com/

  115. Mar Iguana

    Ahhhaaaaa. That’s going to keep me chuckling to myself all day. I’ll never be able to look at a ketchup bottle again without a heh-heh. Thank you, Pony.

  116. greg

    he he. That is just awesome. I love the look on her face.

  117. Temujin

    Well I think that women are often pressured into giving blowjobs by the society around them, by the false perception that everyones doing it, that they have to do it to get a boyfriend and that they have to have a boyfriend to be grown up. This is unfortunate and should be fought against but it is not the specific act thats the problem it’s the manipulation and coercion of young girls and even young boys that can have life damaging effects that is the problem. Its our double standard macho culture(here just as much as in Mexico or any other country) and our societies schizophrenic (hope I spelled that right) mixture of taboo and obsession with sexuality, specifically of teenagers, the sexuality of middle aged and older adults is seen as gross and avoided as much as possible. Sex is a part of life and sex has become about more than procreation, sorry pope. I think thats liberating for both genders. In a healthy sexual relationship both partners experiment with their bodies and do things to pleasure one another. If the blowjob is done as a way for a man to be lazy and be served up pleasure by a woman it becomes exploitative but it doesn’t have to be. Certainly the portrayal of blowjobs in porn is exploitative and puts bad images and ideas in the heads of both men and women, but porn executives should not control or ruin the beautiful thing that is sex. Because of that I have finally completely kicked my porn habit, something I should have done a long time ago. Anyway thats how I see it

  118. tara

    mandos–JUST the power imbalance? are you kidding me?

  119. Alex

    Sex, which, along with religion, is the new religion, is sacrosanct territory.

    Especially on the West Coast, I discovered when I moved here from Texas. There’s a strong tendency toward this belief in liberal people everywhere, but moreso out here, and one of the many reasons I can’t wait to get the hell out of dodge.

  1. Oh yes, please tell us more about this “Teh Sex” you speak of, oh wise asexuals! at PunkAssBlog.com

    [...] Do you know what Twisty? Bite Me. [...]

  2. Infighting keeps us honest at PunkAssBlog.com

    [...] Inevitably, whenever one of us takes issue with something about the Democratic Party, or argues with another leftie blogger, or splits hairs over a definitional argument, somebody drops the “can’t we all just get along?” bomb. Twisty’s blow job blow up is just the latest in a long line of issues over which various liberal bloggers (including our own superstar) and commenters engaged in a heated exchange over what we do and how we act. [...]

  3. Sex Positivity doesn’t mean Sex Stupidity at PunkAssBlog.com

    [...] but the thing is, all they can point to is the one or two commenters over in the I Blame The Patriarchy threads who considered fellatio an act which they felt really uncomfortable calling “empowering” or “feminist”, and do you know what? So what if they do feel uncomfortable about submissive sexual acts? There are valid feminist reason to dislike and object to women engaging in submissive sex, and those commenters had highly valid feminist reason to consider fellatio giving both a sumissive sexual act and an entirely abusive patriarchal one too. [...]

  4. Feministe » Can We Talk About Porn Without Having the Same Fight Over and Over?

    [...] been looking for some contemporary porn-critical analysis that is nuanced, that doesn’t judge or deny women’s sexual desire when that desire doesn’t conform to [...]

  5. More Stanley at I Blame The Patriarchy

    [...] had seen fit to seize was limited to my views on — what else? — fellatio (remember the Great Blow Job Wars of ‘06?). I am quoted as referring to the practice as “gross,” ha ha. In a longer quotation [...]

  6. Feminism, the newest religion « der Skorpion

    [...] Sure, it’s desirable not to be a hypocrite and self-examine so that one does not become what one hates, but every single damn one of us is a walking set of contradictions because we still live in this fucking system of never ending hierarchies. Jill gets bikini waxes; Twisty’s commenters give blow-jobs. [...]

  7. Hugs, Twisty: join us as we curl our lip at whiny dads at I Blame The Patriarchy

    [...] shut down the Blamateria. That was when about a million feminist women wrote in to explain that giving blow jobs was the most empowering thing ever invented. I figured, well heck, if they’ve found the solution to women’s oppression, what am I [...]

  8. Whither the Blow Job? « The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    [...] shall be my final contribution to the Feminist Hummer Wars of Summer 2006, and the only contribution hosted chez moi. Yes, I am talking about the money shot heard [...]

  9. Incisive blamer commentary clippets of the day « I Blame The Patriarchy

    [...] * Remember the Fellatio Wars of Aught-Six? Good [...]

  10. Blow-job blowhards - Salon.com

    [...] 230 responses, many of them from women who argued that giving head is an empowering act. And so she followed up, sarcastically opining that she is “chastened.” “I’d forgotten that when it [...]

  11. This is just gross » I Blame The Patriarchy

    [...] here is a link to the final chapter in the Great Fellatio Wars of Aught-Six, which is where we left [...]

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