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	<title>Comments on: Packin</title>
	<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jennie</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28288</link>
		<author>jennie</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28288</guid>
		<description>Finssmotel, I'm pretty sure you're speaking dogmatically, so there's not much point in my arguing, and you've hedged with a "usually" here, but the following still seems somewhat ... overly absolute:

&lt;blockquote&gt;â€œAll in the name of good funâ€ is usually a shield for some behavior that gives pleasure to the receiver at the expense of someone else. In some cases, the expense may be quiet bearable, so it doesnâ€™t seem so bad.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Let's look at one of my favourite pasttimes: social dance to live music. The musicians play for dancing because they love the music that we dance to, and they get paid (not enough to make a living from, but they do get paid). The dancing is communal, and best when everyone participates and helps everyone else out. 

And yes, a custodian has to care for the space that we use, and in winter the space is heated, and the heat has to come at the expense of some fuel. But the custodian is paid, and they'd have to heat the space whether it was used for "fun" or for "work." The dancing does not take place at anyone's expense, though it's not free to participants (an evening costs $8, which might be prohibitive).

The activity is not inherently costly to anyone. Nobody loses. Nobody really wins, either. It's a non-competitive activity.

&lt;i&gt;Granted&lt;/i&gt;, some people may find participation in this type of dance very challengingâ€”certain physical disabilities would not work for some types of dance, and as a community, we're not as good as we could be at adapting what we do to accomodate people's physical limitations, though we're happy to take suggestionsâ€”but &lt;i&gt;not being able to do something&lt;/i&gt; is &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; the same as &lt;i&gt;having that thing happen at one's own expense.&lt;/i&gt;

And that something requires effort in order to happen doesn not mean that those expending the effort are &lt;i&gt;losing&lt;/i&gt; something, at least not in the "someone wins/someone loses" sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finssmotel, I&#8217;m pretty sure you&#8217;re speaking dogmatically, so there&#8217;s not much point in my arguing, and you&#8217;ve hedged with a &#8220;usually&#8221; here, but the following still seems somewhat &#8230; overly absolute:</p>
<blockquote><p>â€œAll in the name of good funâ€ is usually a shield for some behavior that gives pleasure to the receiver at the expense of someone else. In some cases, the expense may be quiet bearable, so it doesnâ€™t seem so bad.</p></blockquote>
<p>Let&#8217;s look at one of my favourite pasttimes: social dance to live music. The musicians play for dancing because they love the music that we dance to, and they get paid (not enough to make a living from, but they do get paid). The dancing is communal, and best when everyone participates and helps everyone else out. </p>
<p>And yes, a custodian has to care for the space that we use, and in winter the space is heated, and the heat has to come at the expense of some fuel. But the custodian is paid, and they&#8217;d have to heat the space whether it was used for &#8220;fun&#8221; or for &#8220;work.&#8221; The dancing does not take place at anyone&#8217;s expense, though it&#8217;s not free to participants (an evening costs $8, which might be prohibitive).</p>
<p>The activity is not inherently costly to anyone. Nobody loses. Nobody really wins, either. It&#8217;s a non-competitive activity.</p>
<p><i>Granted</i>, some people may find participation in this type of dance very challengingâ€”certain physical disabilities would not work for some types of dance, and as a community, we&#8217;re not as good as we could be at adapting what we do to accomodate people&#8217;s physical limitations, though we&#8217;re happy to take suggestionsâ€”but <i>not being able to do something</i> is <i>not</i> the same as <i>having that thing happen at one&#8217;s own expense.</i></p>
<p>And that something requires effort in order to happen doesn not mean that those expending the effort are <i>losing</i> something, at least not in the &#8220;someone wins/someone loses&#8221; sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Cass</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28155</link>
		<author>Cass</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28155</guid>
		<description>Drag kings I like, drag queens tend to make me uncomfortable. Part of it is the minstrel-show effect, the feeling I'm being made fun of by members of a more privelaged class. The other part, if there is one, I'm not quite sure of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drag kings I like, drag queens tend to make me uncomfortable. Part of it is the minstrel-show effect, the feeling I&#8217;m being made fun of by members of a more privelaged class. The other part, if there is one, I&#8217;m not quite sure of.</p>
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		<title>By: Twisty</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28123</link>
		<author>Twisty</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28123</guid>
		<description>They are pushing boundaries by revealing that masculinity -- far from being some innate genetic advantage -- is all just a matter of costume and posturing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They are pushing boundaries by revealing that masculinity &#8212; far from being some innate genetic advantage &#8212; is all just a matter of costume and posturing.</p>
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		<title>By: FemiMom</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28091</link>
		<author>FemiMom</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 14:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28091</guid>
		<description>KTal - my point was that there is an attitude that it is "best" if we NOT go too femme, even if we like it.  We make ourselves vulnerable.  We contribute to our own oppression.  We impede women's rights.  Whatever(!)  
Like you, I have done work that definitely calls for a sturdy uniform.  I don't wear high heels and I am not asking you to do so, either.  But why is it that I feel a cold gaze from my peers (feminist &#38; lesbian &#38; academic) when I dare wear my pirate-style blouse or the color pink?  They wouldn't be mean to my brother if HE wore these items.  "Gender-neutral" has a different meaning depending on your gender.  For women, it means "dress like a frat boy".  THAT is why Drag Kings are not pushing any boundaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KTal - my point was that there is an attitude that it is &#8220;best&#8221; if we NOT go too femme, even if we like it.  We make ourselves vulnerable.  We contribute to our own oppression.  We impede women&#8217;s rights.  Whatever(!)<br />
Like you, I have done work that definitely calls for a sturdy uniform.  I don&#8217;t wear high heels and I am not asking you to do so, either.  But why is it that I feel a cold gaze from my peers (feminist &amp; lesbian &amp; academic) when I dare wear my pirate-style blouse or the color pink?  They wouldn&#8217;t be mean to my brother if HE wore these items.  &#8220;Gender-neutral&#8221; has a different meaning depending on your gender.  For women, it means &#8220;dress like a frat boy&#8221;.  THAT is why Drag Kings are not pushing any boundaries.</p>
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		<title>By: antelope</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28079</link>
		<author>antelope</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28079</guid>
		<description>In fact - while I'm meditating on the awesome and inspiring mess of contradictions that is Tina Turner, it occurs to me that Tina in her heyday is sort of person the modern-day empowerful women are trying to emulate.  The whole reason they can pretend to be empowerful is the notion that slutty outfits give them 1/10th of the oomph that Tina had.

Not one of them comes close.  

Surely that can't be the only possible path to having oomph.  And yet, I crave more oomph myself, so the impulse to go after it is understandable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact - while I&#8217;m meditating on the awesome and inspiring mess of contradictions that is Tina Turner, it occurs to me that Tina in her heyday is sort of person the modern-day empowerful women are trying to emulate.  The whole reason they can pretend to be empowerful is the notion that slutty outfits give them 1/10th of the oomph that Tina had.</p>
<p>Not one of them comes close.  </p>
<p>Surely that can&#8217;t be the only possible path to having oomph.  And yet, I crave more oomph myself, so the impulse to go after it is understandable.</p>
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		<title>By: antelope</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28078</link>
		<author>antelope</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28078</guid>
		<description>Y'all have probably moved on from this thread by now, but I'll throw this out there anyway.

So I did go see the Three Dollar Bills, and it was not all that entertaining.  I think the reason is because most of the tunes they covered were by Eminem &#38; Ludacris and the like, and frankly, the way those guys move is already very feminine.  The diva model, not the fainting flower model, but feminine just the same, so there was nothing remotely strange about watching women do it.  

On the other hand, the best show of the night was a queen (trannie? not sure) doing Tina Turner, even though Tina strikes me as having more of a masterful strut as compared to the silly prancing of the hip hop boys.  Why is a guy doing a masterful strut entertaining and a woman doing a silly prance just old hat?  Maybe I just like Tina better as a musician and a personality and there is no grand theory here.  Maybe it's what someone said upthread about men's clothes being genderless, especially the baggy hip hop clothes.  Not that I want them to go back to codpieces or anything.

Now Tina was dressing like a slut back before slutty was a raison d'etre, and yet it's difficult for me to think of her as a tool of the patriarchy.  Not once she got past 40 or so anyway.  I wonder how much of her expert manipulation of ideas about race and gender and power was conscious and how much was subliminal?  

Heh - I can wander because everyone is on to the next post anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Y&#8217;all have probably moved on from this thread by now, but I&#8217;ll throw this out there anyway.</p>
<p>So I did go see the Three Dollar Bills, and it was not all that entertaining.  I think the reason is because most of the tunes they covered were by Eminem &amp; Ludacris and the like, and frankly, the way those guys move is already very feminine.  The diva model, not the fainting flower model, but feminine just the same, so there was nothing remotely strange about watching women do it.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, the best show of the night was a queen (trannie? not sure) doing Tina Turner, even though Tina strikes me as having more of a masterful strut as compared to the silly prancing of the hip hop boys.  Why is a guy doing a masterful strut entertaining and a woman doing a silly prance just old hat?  Maybe I just like Tina better as a musician and a personality and there is no grand theory here.  Maybe it&#8217;s what someone said upthread about men&#8217;s clothes being genderless, especially the baggy hip hop clothes.  Not that I want them to go back to codpieces or anything.</p>
<p>Now Tina was dressing like a slut back before slutty was a raison d&#8217;etre, and yet it&#8217;s difficult for me to think of her as a tool of the patriarchy.  Not once she got past 40 or so anyway.  I wonder how much of her expert manipulation of ideas about race and gender and power was conscious and how much was subliminal?  </p>
<p>Heh - I can wander because everyone is on to the next post anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28061</link>
		<author>Ron Sullivan</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28061</guid>
		<description>I'll back up KTal here, while I'm waiting for my hair to dry. Crewcuts don't belong to men; they belong to anyone who wants to wear a crewcut. (I'm told it's nice and cool in the summer.) Plaid flannel, pants, suit-n-tie, etc., ditto. "Woman" isn't something you dress up as, and it's pretty clear that a woman wearing a crewcut isn't, in fact, safer than she'd be in curlycurls unless she's in intimate contact with dangerous whirling blades or open flame. 

Wiping one's nose on one's sleeve is equally disgusting no matter who does it. Come on, we don't really own the patent on basic sanitation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll back up KTal here, while I&#8217;m waiting for my hair to dry. Crewcuts don&#8217;t belong to men; they belong to anyone who wants to wear a crewcut. (I&#8217;m told it&#8217;s nice and cool in the summer.) Plaid flannel, pants, suit-n-tie, etc., ditto. &#8220;Woman&#8221; isn&#8217;t something you dress up as, and it&#8217;s pretty clear that a woman wearing a crewcut isn&#8217;t, in fact, safer than she&#8217;d be in curlycurls unless she&#8217;s in intimate contact with dangerous whirling blades or open flame. </p>
<p>Wiping one&#8217;s nose on one&#8217;s sleeve is equally disgusting no matter who does it. Come on, we don&#8217;t really own the patent on basic sanitation.</p>
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		<title>By: joolya</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28038</link>
		<author>joolya</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28038</guid>
		<description>Damn. I think it would be most amusing to be a drag king for a day, but the closest I can get is "drag 13-year-old boy". Which is the polar opposite of hot. And fun, for that matter.
Oh well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn. I think it would be most amusing to be a drag king for a day, but the closest I can get is &#8220;drag 13-year-old boy&#8221;. Which is the polar opposite of hot. And fun, for that matter.<br />
Oh well.</p>
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		<title>By: finnsmotel</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28035</link>
		<author>finnsmotel</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28035</guid>
		<description>typo:  quiet should be quite</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>typo:  quiet should be quite</p>
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		<title>By: finnsmotel</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28034</link>
		<author>finnsmotel</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/10/24/packin/#comment-28034</guid>
		<description>Maybe the words "winner" and "loser" are too strong.

I'm just sayin'

"All in the name of good fun" is usually a shield for some behavior that gives pleasure to the receiver at the expense of someone else.  In some cases, the expense may be quiet bearable, so it doesn't seem so bad.

But, I believe it to be irrefutable that there's an energy transaction in all human interactions.  And, inevitably most are inequitable.  Sometimes due to larger amounts of greed in one than the other.  Sometimes due to larger need from one than the other.  But, the equation is rarely balanced by any standard of measure we've come up with so far.

We've even taken to naming the imbalances with romantic names, like "love," "fun," "faith," etc.  But, if you look closely, most times, the giving has an expected return attached.

Sorry if that sounds cold, but, it appears to be a plain fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the words &#8220;winner&#8221; and &#8220;loser&#8221; are too strong.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just sayin&#8217;</p>
<p>&#8220;All in the name of good fun&#8221; is usually a shield for some behavior that gives pleasure to the receiver at the expense of someone else.  In some cases, the expense may be quiet bearable, so it doesn&#8217;t seem so bad.</p>
<p>But, I believe it to be irrefutable that there&#8217;s an energy transaction in all human interactions.  And, inevitably most are inequitable.  Sometimes due to larger amounts of greed in one than the other.  Sometimes due to larger need from one than the other.  But, the equation is rarely balanced by any standard of measure we&#8217;ve come up with so far.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve even taken to naming the imbalances with romantic names, like &#8220;love,&#8221; &#8220;fun,&#8221; &#8220;faith,&#8221; etc.  But, if you look closely, most times, the giving has an expected return attached.</p>
<p>Sorry if that sounds cold, but, it appears to be a plain fact.</p>
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