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Mar 03 2007

Liberal DudeWatch ’07: their forbidden love for Ann Coulter

Is anyone else weirded out by the homo/transphobic tenor expressed in the reaction to smirkbot Ann Coulter’s having called John Edwards a “faggot”?

I don’t mean the wingnut reaction, I mean the supposedly liberal reaction. And I don’t mean the “official” liberal reaction, but the populist Internetian (rhymes with Venetian) reaction [1] . OK, I mean the comments at the above-linked blurb at ThinkProgress (see also Wonkette).

But forget about Coulter for a second. Consider that we do not inhabit, as I had briefly fantasized earlier this morning, a world superintended by a passionate altruistic Cosmic Enthusiasm. No, ours is a world in which human interaction is so heavily policed by the megatheocorporatocracy that calling someone a faggot is still considered the worst insult ever. It is considered an insult, even by progressives, because homophobia — and by extension, transphobia — is in point of fact a species of misogyny. And everybody’s a misogynist. Watch TV for five minutes if you don’t believe me.

True, it doesn’t take a taco-eating spinster aunt to grasp that homophobia is the inevitable product of woman-hating; duller minds than mine have made the connection between penetration and domination. I mention this only as a backdrop to today’s patriarchy-spotting binge.

So back to Coulter. Or rather, back to the responses to Coulter in the ThinkProgress comments:

“tranny + skank = trank?”

“That Coulter guy sure is an ugly dude.”

“Gad Le Skank grows ever more hideous, like the Picture of Dorian Gray. It’s enough to turn any hetero guy gay. Inner ugliness will out.”

“I ‘ read’ her as a tranny the very first time I saw a photo of her. It is that obvious. And trannies ARE faggots, they’re gayer than gay. So who’s the faggot now?”

Et cetera. At present the ThinkProgress post has accrued 500 or so comments just like these.

Of course Coulter — a maggot chewing on the rotting corpse of human enlightenment — pretty much cries out for lefty derision. Sadly, because such a large percentage of the dudes who vituperate on political blogs are 22, in a case like this one rather expects juvenile ad hominem attacks, more or less out the wazoo. But what really puts my entrails in a knot is that the most offensive invective these bright young minds can contrive springs universally, not just from misogyny, but from what can only be construed as a depraved delight in misogyny.

Seasoned blamers won’t really require a feminist explication of the quoted bigotry, but in case there are any novices in the house:

• A “skank” is a woman who lets more than one man fuck her, and who is therefore dirty and degraded. Conveniently, the moral status of the supposed legions of dudes who do the actual fucking is never in question.

• “Tranny”: Straight dudes must automatically revile any rejection of megatheocorporatocratic virility. If they don’t, their whole identity as confident dominators and possessors is thrown into question. And even though straight dudes require cisgendered women to fake it up with boob jobs and makeup, they can’t conceive of a less dignified creature than a fake woman.

• An “ugly” woman is similarly an execrable object, since a woman’s value is entirely a function of her hotness.

• The asshole who alludes without apparent irony to a novel by a gay man is pretty funny with his little joke that female ugliness has the destructive power to transform a normal guy into a despised homo.

• The fourth guy hates Coulter so much that he calls her a faggot; despite the fact that he has just done the very thing he’s calling her out on, the siren call of his contempt for queers is just too much for him to resist.

What does all this reveal? That these arrogant, stupid pricks have been flawlessly assimilated by the patriarchal Borg, which views anything that isn’t a replication of its ideal self, i.e. straight and male, as deviant. Women — along with their poor relations, the transsexuals and the homos — are the lowest form of life imaginable. Liberal dudes might pretend that being gay is OK for somebody else, but don’t be mistaking them personally for somebody who takes it like a bitch. Liberals hate women — and queers — as much as the next oppressive class of assholes. And Ann Coulter’s just an excuse to let’er rip with impunity.

______________________________
1. I do not juxtapose the words “populist” and “internet” with a straight face. Currently, roughly 5.9 billion citizens of the world — that’s almost 90% — are without internet access. I arrive at this figure by subtracting the estimated number of worldwide internet users (694 million) from the estimated total global population (6.69 billion).

133 comments

7 pings

  1. Pinko Punko

    Thank you.

    Twisty will have the first taco of the night burnt in sacred offering because of cutting through the bullshit.

    Perhaps TF has noticed that the internets have completely blown up the last few days, and I find this post to be a drink of crystal clear water.

  2. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    For what it’s worth, FULL MOON AND LUNAR ECLIPSE tonight!!!!! Even folks who insist astrology is bunk admit people go cuckoo at this time of the month. Ask any psych ward employee and s/he will tell you about full moons. Hell, in my pink-ghetto years we used to call the lunatics “full moon callers.” They really DID call/visit close to the full moon. Seriously.

    I figured: The full moon, the lunar eclipse (legend says it has the power of 3 full moons combined), AND my PMDD? It’s best that I stay home tonight. But now I’m hungry for tacos and have to go to the store. Thanks a LOT. Shit. Call the cops if I’m not back in an hour.

  3. Steve Pick

    Over the years, many of the people I know who can’t handle the Patriarchy blaming you do so well, yet who are defiantly liberal in many other areas of their life, have spent an inordinate amount of time calling Ann Coulter a whore. I haven’t heard them call her a faggot or a tranny, but the principal is the same.

    I almost typed that I’ve never understood this urge to demonize through misogyny, but, of course I understand it. I simply don’t like it. Crazy, huh?

  4. Pinko Punko

    THP-

    the tacos should slake your bloodlust, and try to stay out of the clink!

  5. Twisty

    I spend two hours sweating over a hot keyboard, pouring my heart out in a desperate plea for reason and sanity, and what do I get? La Hedonista speaking in tongues about astrology.

    Meanwhile, Steve Pick, it’s great to hear from you.

  6. kate

    I saw the site, saw the comments. I felt nothing but confusion and I went away and reflected on this: that male liberals make horrible comments about women, gay people, tran gendered people and even references upholding racism so often that I have become desensitized to it.

    Thus my failure to fully absorb immediately what the bruhaha was about. “So, its a buncha guys making digusting, offensive comments? What’s new?” Shame on me for being so numb. Shame on this damn social system that taught me to become numbed to the sting of such slurs and thus not call them out.

  7. kate

    Well, I’m not always numb. I hope.

  8. Scratchy888

    Sorta feeds into a common notion that the right wing are the straight talkers about The Great Phallus, whereas the liberals are just those who wanta soften a little bit The Great Phallus, and hence are kinda unnatural, although more kinder.

  9. mikey

    [Comment undeleted despite spelling errors, grammar errors, punctuation errors, HTML errors, and an ellipsis foul to illustrate the popular "You Stupid Feminists Better Not Say Anything Insulting About Liberal Men Because We Are Fully Capable Of Condoning Your Continued Oppression If You Sass Us" threat]

    Hi. I followed Pinko over here. I promised to be polite. A couple things, though. First, you cannot have a lunar eclipse at any time other than when the moon is full. C’mon, just visualize the orbits, pretty much any third grader can do it. Umm, I mean, see, the only way that the earths shadow can be cast on the moon is when the earth is between the moon and the sun, and this describes accurately the condition we see as a “full moon”.

    Now, on to other things. If this is true:

    Liberal dudes might pretend that being gay is OK for somebody else, but don’t be mistaking them personally for somebody who takes it like a bitch. Liberals hate women — and queers — as much as the next oppressive class of assholes.

    And it is also true that so-called conservatives, let’s just call ‘em wingnuts to generalize, also are homophobic and hate women, which seems somewhat more self-evident, then it seems that the ONLY people who do not hate women and gays are, well, women and gays. This is silly and bigoted, not to mention insulting to a fairly powerful support group. I don’t feel like I have anything to prove to you, so I’m not going to give you my bona fides, you can find ‘em if you look, but if you are truly willing to stand there and say “Poor me, I have no allies, no allies at all” you do yourself and your cause a serious dis-service. Think about this again. You have describe a serious problem in America today, and if you think you can do any good without people who are different than you, you not only will fail, you sadly missed the point of the entire civil rights movement. Lemme help you with your history. African Americans didn’t need the support of other African Americans in order to gain some of their constitutional rights, they needed the help and support, belief and understanding of the white community. All I’m asking here is you re-think your ‘everybody is my enemy position’. Or maybe I just read it wrong, but I gotta tell you, that’s what it said to me…

    mikey

  10. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    Mikey: How amusing that you didn’t think I knew that (rolleye).

  11. Margalis

    I agree with your general sentiment but your post is not factually correct.

    “At present the ThinkProgress post has accrued 500 or so comments just like these. ”

    No, it hasn’t. As of this second there are 554 total posts, and about half of them are in the vein you describe. (Rough estimate)

    There are a lot of “dudes” saying nasty vile crap about Coulter but a lot of “dudes” (or are these people not dudes?) making reasonable comments.

    Are we to assume that the vile dudes are members of the patriarchy and the more reasonable ones are not? (Are they women?) Without knowing the gender and age of the posters I wouldn’t make broad assumptions.

    I’m a man, I’m a member of the patriarchy I suppose…people calling her a ‘tranny’ or ‘Mann Coulter’ or whatever the fuck are just idiots.

    There are a lot of asshole hypocrites on the internet who deserve to be called out. And yes a lot of men will call someone a skank or a tranny or a faggot as some horrible insult but a lot won’t. The comments section you linked to is evidence of that.

    That said, they do deserve to be called out and it is a disgrace that ‘liberals’ are no better than that.

    Now since I’m a card-carrying member of the evil patriarchal Borg I’ll go back to my business of constant oppression, taking over the universe, kidnapping Picard etc.

  12. jami

    what coulter needs is a nickname from george w. bush. when people go after karl rove, the nickname given him by a man he presumably considers a friend sates the crudeness needs of 22-year-old liberal dude. they needn’t call him ugly or dainty. he’s already called turd blossom.

  13. Bitey

    Pretty much any third grader can be polite, too, but here we are.

  14. ChapstickAddict

    And it is also true that so-called conservatives, let’s just call ‘em wingnuts to generalize, also are homophobic and hate women, which seems somewhat more self-evident, then it seems that the ONLY people who do not hate women and gays are, well, women and gays.

    So wait, women and gays are not included in the liberal or conservative group? Right, only straight guys hold the political opinions that matter. (Maybe my picking apart your writing is a bit nitpicky, but I hope you can see the clear gender bias there.)

    And you sound like you think that us “radical” feminists hate all men (that argument doesn’t sound familiar at all) and that we think everyone is our enemy. My enemy is the patriarchy. The brainless minions are just symptoms, and I look on them (mostly) more with pity than with contempt.

  15. Bitey

    “[I]t seems that the ONLY people who do not hate women and gays are, well, women and gays.”

    What makes you think that women and gays don’t hate women and gays?

    *Sigh.*

  16. Molly, NYC

    A “skank” is a woman who lets more than one man fuck her, and who is therefore dirty and degraded.

    Hey, it’s your blog, but I’ve always used “skank” to characterize a particularly juiceless type of woman who’s wasted her body and looks on the fashions of anorexia and substance abuse. In this light, not only is Coulter a skank, but if you put her in a vacuum tube and brought it down to 0 Kelvin, you’d have the platinum-irridium standard for “skank.”

    Of course, I have no way of knowing about her sex life. But occasionally letting more than one man fuck her would be orders-of-magnitude more wholesome than going to bed every night with a bottle of vodka while congratulating herself on her chastity–which, if I were to hazard a guess, is what she does.

  17. Pinko Punko

    I didn’t mean to start a huge thing here- I posted the link to this post somewhere else because it was super germane to a big discussion RE: Coulter, and I thought that Twisty was right on.

    For those that are having a bit of culture clash, here is the Twisty FAQ

    No flame wars please- how about we just chew on what Twisty wrote and sleep on it.

  18. mikey

    Lemme try it a different way, ’cause this does matter to me. Can you not understand or accept that it might be the SLUR we reacted to, not the concept that the object of the slur was bad? If she had called Barack Obama a nigger, and I reacted with outrage, would you construe that as my belief that black men are all niggers? Or would you, in that event, understand that she had used an offensive term, and in the politics of the day, not only can I react with outrage, but I can attempt to tar her masters with the same racist, sexist, homophobic brush. I mean, it really seems you guys are stepping over dollars to pick up pennies here.

    I wonder what you might have said if we accepted, without outrage, coulter’s offensive slur. I wonder if we might have been accused of something completely different.

    My politics are liberal. Knowing that does NOT mean you know me. If you think there is value in assigning beliefs to people you do not know based on their political orientation, perhaps you need to rethink your own “liberal” credentials.

    mikey

  19. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    Aw, Pinko, you’re ruining my fun. I was just popping some corn and getting ready to ask Mikey to tell me more about the moon!

    (Hey, are these huffy liberal dude guys who deem it necessary to threaten to take away their “support” every time we call them on their shit the same liberal dude guys who keep telling us abortion is a fringe issue?)

  20. Amaz0n

    Are we to assume that the vile dudes are members of the patriarchy and the more reasonable ones are not?

    No, because one is not a “member” of the patriarchy (however easy it might be to imagine the patriarchy imbodied by some weird old dudely society like the Masons). That’s rather like being a “member” of the English language. Patriarchy is a thing, not a group. See here for a succinct explaination.

  21. Pinko Punko

    mikey-

    it seems to me the people being derided were the ones that kind of used the event to tar Coulter with obscene and derisive language that are themselves loaded epithets. In some cases people acted like it WAS the worst thing in the world to call someone gay- for example if one uses the term “smear” it suggests that the epithet tars someone beyond being false- that there is something to be tarred with, i.e. being gay. I think the main point of the post was that a lot of people may support liberal policies but they seem to sport quite a bit of unexamined behavior (this is not about civility, but unexamined mindframes and motives). This being said, I did not read the post as being an attack on me because while I thought Coulter was the height of obscene in her behavior, I did not think was a reason for me to call her a whore, skank, etc. etc (not that I think you did either). I think the mindframes being called out were the ones exemplified by the specific quotes given.

  22. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    Overarching point: Unless a person’s sexual, sartorial or eating/drinking behaviors belie his or her politics, why discuss them at all?

  23. Mandos

    Whoooooa boy. The son-of-fatjokegate has arrive in the Twistyverse. Pinko, Pinko, Pinko.

  24. Pinko Punko

    I do deserve that, Mandos.

    What I meant was more that I agree 100% with what Twisty said and I thought she said it in a forceful way, but you know butterfly wings and hurricanes.

    I’m out for the evening. Let’s hope the shit doesn’t hit the fan.

    I’ll check in for spanking tomorrow.

    OK, now I just started the BDSM thing.

    Frack.

  25. mikey

    Hokay. Whatevs. You’re all the saddest of victims. Nobody loves you, nobody supports you. You can’t find folks to stand up and say you’re right and you deserve better. Shoot. Can’t imagine why that would be. Y’know, you guys have done a great job of ending debate. See ya….

    mikey

  26. Pinko Punko

    Well, damn it. I didn’t mean for this to happen.

  27. Bitey

    “If she had called Barack Obama a nigger, and I reacted with outrage, would you construe that as my belief that black men are all niggers?”

    Wow. This just so totally misses the point, my head is spinning. Here’s the analogy for which you’re grasping:

    Coulter: Obama is a nigger.

    You: I can’t believe she said that. That’s so offensive. She’s such a stupid nigger.

    Clear?

  28. Cassidy

    The use of derogatory terms for homosexuals is a problem I have encountered in another context. I always appreciate Twisty’s wisdom and humor, so maybe you can help me out here.

    I am occasionally a substitute teacher in the local schools. I consistently tell students not to call each other names, even in jest, because it is not respectful. Frequently boys, in my experience it has always been boys, taunt each other by calling each other gay, faggot, etc. On one hand, they use these terms as an intended insult. But how do I correct their behavior, while making it clear that being homosexual is normal and nothing to be ashamed of?

    Back on the main topic, Twisty is again right on target in pointing out the correlation between homophobia and misogyny. Ann Coulter is revolting not because of what she does or doesn’t look like, or how she behaves, but because of the hateful ideology she spreads. Yet every time I look at comments in various liberal blogs that remark on her vituperative attacks, the comments have a very high proportion of sexual, homosexual, and transsexual insults. This type of attack does not occur with any of the equally hateful conservative male pundits, e.g. Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, Charles Johnson.

    What else can one conclude, but that misogyny and homophobia are unfortunately common, even among those who consider themselves liberal or progressive?

  29. Mikey Jo

    Excellent, excellent post.

  30. Rob G

    Mikey, it seems that your outrage hinges on one crucial sentence;

    Liberals hate women — and queers — as much as the next oppressive class of assholes.

    When I read this, I noticed the word “class”, and it seemed pretty obvious by its usage that “Liberals” here meant the group as a whole. It certainly didn’t say (to me) that all liberal men hate women and queers. Someone looking for outrage might see this, I guess.

    Also, nothing wrong with saying “full moon and lunar eclipse”. “lunar eclipse and full moon”, you could argue with, if you were in an argumentative mood.

  31. ilyka

    You’re all the saddest of victims. Nobody loves you, nobody supports you.

    This, from an enthusiastic participant in the neverending whinefest about how mean to his buddies was Feministe, and how Feministe sometimes gets comments stuck in the spamulator, a common blogular phenomenon his fellow whiners were all quick to interpret as a deliberate barrier to their inalienable dudely rights to free speech.

    Hokay, indeed, but I don’t think that cross is going to hold you all up forever. Someone’s going to have to clamber down from that thing eventually.

    That these arrogant, stupid pricks have been flawlessly assimilated by the patriarchal Borg, which views anything that isn’t a replication of its ideal self, i.e. straight and male, as deviant.

    It was remarked by one such dude at Feministe that he took the greatest offense at the suggestion he needed educating. Being called names didn’t bother him, open mockery didn’t bother him, but to suggest he lacked knowledge–why, how could this be? What that did not originate from the heterosexual and the male could possibly be of educational value?

    It’s the deviants who need to learn a few things, that’s what. Like when to shut up, mostly.

  32. Clio Bluestocking

    Exactly, exactly! As usual, Twisty gets right down to the cultural structural issues. Whenever a conservative woman, gay person, non-white person says something truly offensive just as Ann Coulter does pretty much everytime she opens her mouth, that is when the misogyny, homophobia, and racism on the liberal side rises to the surface. To just attack Coulter in pretty much the exact same way that she attacked Edwards is to stoop to her level of immaturity and completely de-fuse her blatant homophobia. I mean, really! What do her looks, her skankitude, her anything superficial have to do with the hatred she spews? In fact, to stoop to her level is to de-fuse the hatred she spews. At least her disgusting features are out in the open for everyone to see and react accordingly. She doesn’t hide it behind “I’m a liberal but women’s and gay and racial issues are really just marginal” arguments.

  33. Bitey

    Oops. My last post came after our friend had already made his dramatic exit. My ex-husband used to make exits like that, all wounded and sullen, complete with the petulant parting shot. I’m just sayin’.

    Don’t blame yourself, Pinko. As a very wise man of my acquaintence once said, “Shit like that happens sometimes.” Anyway, you know whom to blame.

  34. Gender Blank

    Darn. I wish Mikey had stuck around, ’cause I would’ve asked him if he would also recommend that women continue to put up with men who beat them simply because the men buy them shit. No one deserves verbal abuse, whether it’s from conservative assholes or the slightly-nicer “liberal” assholes. Just because a person identifies as liberal doesn’t give him/her a free pass to treat women and gay people with contempt. We shouldn’t have to conceal the bruises just to make you feel better.

    Plus, I think he has the power dynamic a bit backward. Women and gay people don’t really “need” liberals, but liberals sure as hell need women and gay people.

  35. amanda w

    Saying “You had better not forget your place, or I may have to withdraw my support, and you can’t get anywhere without my support” is just another way of saying “I never cared about helping you in the first place.”

  36. kate

    “Can you not understand or accept that it might be the SLUR we reacted to, not the concept that the object of the slur was bad?”

    We understand quite well. We understand that those who profess to have no problem with homosexuality would do well to not construe the act of calling someone ‘gay’ or ‘faggot’ as a means to cause harm to one’s stature with the use of gay or faggot references as a means to cause harm to one’s person by calling minimizing the worth of an individual is known to be homosexual.

    There’s a difference. One is based on the assumption that homosexuality is cause for revulsion and thus used as a ‘slur’ against another irrespective of their sexual orientation. The other is one degree more of the first, but the word tagged to a known homosexual usually is meant to incite direct efforts to dehumanize and target the individual for social exclusion and derision.

    Liberals, most often males, often engage in the first example with their peers and others without examining how by doing so they assist the furtherance of the latter.

    “If she had called Barack Obama a nigger, and I reacted with outrage, would you construe that as my belief that black men are all niggers?”

    That’s kind of an odd posit, but I’ll make an effort. If your outrage included using that epithet on others in your comments, then I’d say you had some issues with racism to deal with, particularly not being aware that the word N—S (which I hate) has roots in no reality other then the world of Jim Crow and needs to die its own death right now, period. Whether you or anyone considered all black men to be ‘n–s’ is far outweighed by anyone even considering that such a classification exists or should be considered at all. Using the word is unacceptable and that’s it.

    Which is the same for the usage of misogynist hate speech flung at Coulter. Use of words that were used in furthering and justifying the brutal oppression and dehumanization of all women do not belong on a ‘progressive’ blog that purports to support feminism.

    “not only can I react with outrage, but I can attempt to tar her masters with the same racist, sexist, homophobic brush.”

    No you can’t and I realize that as a white male you are used to getting your way, but if you stand by your conviction to justice then you need to step aside and let go of the wheel.

    I realize that its hard to trust those you’ve been trained since childhood to disregard as ignorant, worthless harpies and worst, but give it a try.

    We’re telling you and your male friends, of whose opinions we must entertain endlessly, that you have no right to pick up the bloody sword of oppressive language and use them as our once assigned ‘masters’ have done to us for centuries. Certainly, you must understand that those who are white, hetero males must rid themselves of the tendency to assume and exercise without impunity, the very privilege they profess to eschew, lest they be deemed by onlookers as less than genuine. Your efforts at rebuke for making the latter observation only further solidify that observation.

    In other words, when your hands curl around the gilded handle of that beast of my and my ancestor’s suffering in whatever capacity to claim to use it, you have just told me that you are no longer my ally.

  37. ilyka

    You need a blog, amanda w, and I need what you just wrote in cross-stitch. Perfect.

  38. kcb

    There’s something else to the phenomenon of liberals launching misogynist/homophobic attacks that bothers me: the intellectual laziness of it. Slap a hateful label on your opponent and hang the liberal label/shield on yourself and you can call it a day with no time-consuming examination of your own prejudices and shortcomings.

    Maybe that’s why the nice gentleman behind me in the checkout line this evening said I was crazy when I told him to stop touching me. God forbid he should consider that rubbing against strange women might be offensive and inappropriate.

    Or I guess it could be the full moon.

  39. my bona fides

    Someone named mikey isn’t going to give us his bona fides.

    Could it get any better?

  40. AKsnowgirl

    hmmm….Seems that those pointing fingers at ‘faggots’ are indeed larger ones themselves. Couldn’t referring to Ann Coulter as a ‘fagoot’ herself be a way of redefining the word ‘faggot’ so as not to mean a gay man but to an individual that espouses values of a gay man but is too chickenshit to come out with it? Couldn’t skanky be a way of saying that she is in bed with the sickening right wing creeps that want to restrict our civil rights and force their morals upon us all(that apprently many of them do not even follow themselves once they step down from the pulpit!) It is frightening to me that such an ignorant hate monger is given such access to our media and public consciousness. It is encouraging though that there is increased public consciousness of the fact that mony of these extremists are big hypocrites that ironically indulge in many of the very behaviors which they publicly condemn. Just a few things to consider…..

  41. thebewilderness

    In the immortal words of Pogo, “We have met the enemy, and they is us”.

  42. Bitey

    I was going to pose a question for speculation about how y’all think these nice, nice guys with all their liberal bona fides would react to being called out, but then I realized that they would trivialize and dismiss and question our senses of humor and our sexuality. This is obvious. In my case, this would lead to my losing my temper and my eloquence, getting red in the face, and calling my interlocutor a fucking idiot, to be shortly followed by hiding in a corner and crying. I dread contention, but I’m unwilling to be the kind of cool they think is cool.

    So here’s my new question: How do we call them out without losing our tempers when they reveal themselves to hate us?

  43. Lesley

    You’ve made me rethink my passive tolerance for the usual smears and cheap shots as well as the periodic postings of hot porntastic babes on one popular blogger’s site. A person whose wit and humour I regularly enjoy – he nails the wingnuts every time – he nonetheless regularly describes his wife (a multi-faceted prize, to be sure) in sexually suggestive terms. Has she a brain? Talents outside the bedroom? No doubt. What’s more important is communicating in innuendo, and occasional dated pix, that she is a gal all of his male readers can appreciate in a wink wink nudge nudge kinda way.

    I’ve never liked it, but who am I to say she might not feel flattered. The man clearly loves his wife, but it seems every time he describes her he’s describing his achievement in acquiring a catch.

    But then I’ve always been a sensitive bitch.

  44. Pinko Punko

    Ilyka,

    I know you have not had a favorable view of mikey and I can’t change that, and leaving out differences he and I may have on the issues that are on the table here, I have to at least stand up for him in that I find him to be honest, genuine and friendly, and I consider him a friend, although we only know each other from stupid blogs. Certainly many people have many more facets than are apparent from dealing with each other on the internet, and of course different contexts can show different sides of people. I don’t mean this to become a referendum on his entire character- nobody deserves that really, besides certain despicable public figures. It is one of those deals where I’m not advocating what he said, he can do that for himself, but I am defending him as a person. I respectfully say that to you who I have enjoyed at Pandagon recently (not that it matters).

  45. yankee transplant

    Great post again, TF. IBTP 100%

  46. figleaf

    Dead right about Coulter, Twisty. Thank you.

    figleaf

  47. ceezee

    This whole mikey saga is rather eerie. Just last night I had a similar conversation with an ex-boyfriend where he told a rather offensive sexist joke, I got upset and explained a) why it was offensive and b) that he should apologize.

    So he did.

    No, no, I kid. Of course he didn’t. Instead, he called me hypersensitive, said that any member of a racial minority would also be hypersensitive if they reacted similarly to a racist joke, and sent me nasty text-messages for the rest of the evening calling me a femi-nazi and a bookburner (no, I don’t know where he got that one from either).

    I mention this only because, as a young blamer, I have not had to put up with that many patriarchal asshats in my life. This was really my first truly baffling conversation, and as sad as it may be that he is not the only one out there, I am glad to know that it is not, in fact, me.

    PS, Twisty, you have a fabulous blog here, and your commentariat is (are?) phenomenally insightful. Tacos to all.

  48. John Holmes

    The women calling Coulter a faggot are the real faggots here.

  49. amanda w

    The women calling Coulter a faggot are the real faggots here.

    Aaaand we’ve reached a whole new level of “not getting it.”

  50. Molly, NYC

    Overarching point: Unless a person’s sexual, sartorial or eating/drinking behaviors belie his or her politics, why discuss them at all?

    Hedonistic Pleasureseeker: Here’s the belying (or at least, ironic) bit: Coulter obviously throws enormous effort into her appearance (also money; good colorists don’t come cheap)—specifically, into that Anorexia Barbieâ„¢ look that passes for hot among the sort of half-witted ‘winger men she hangs with, and to whom you and I wouldn’t give the time of day (and actually, I don’t think Ann does either, because even if you share their politics, they’re still yucko. Also, heavy drinking tends to kill your interest in sex).

    There’s nothing wrong with that by itself, but Coulter, whom most people outside of that right-wing milieu don’t view as particularly attractive, commonly, and rather nastily, takes the position that women on the Left—virtually all of whom are more sexually successful (however you want to define that) than she is (because y’know, pretty much everyone is)—are fat, ugly, etc. So here is this rather desperate, unhealthy-looking, rapidly aging, batshit-crazy drunk asserting that you, me, Twisty, the Dixie Chicks, et al, simply can’t hope to approach her dazzling, ethereal loveliness.

    You betcha.

  51. thebastardsonsofalgoldstein

    Saying “You had better not forget your place, or I may have to withdraw my support, and you can’t get anywhere without my support” is just another way of saying “I never cared about helping you in the first place.”

    Yes, it is another way of saying that. Now, if anyone had actually said that you’d have a point.

    “Liberals hate women — and queers — as much as the next oppressive class of assholes.”

    I’m pretty sure you’d concluded that long before you published your textbook example of confirmation bias.

    “At present the ThinkProgress post has accrued 500 or so comments just like these.”

    If by “just like these” you mean they’re written in English and have words and punctuation and shit.

  52. ilyka

    I know you have not had a favorable view of mikey and I can’t change that

    Whoa, whoa! I actually get a huge kick outta mikey most of the time, but the “dumb feminists stuck in the cult of victimhood” refrain echoing throughout the Sadly comments, juxtaposed (and sometimes sharing the very same comment space) with all the complaining about their unfair treatment at the hands of this mythical cult of feminist victimhood–well, come on now, be fair. That’s an irony at which I am unable to resist giggling.

    I have no personal animus mikey-ward, though. Swear. Perhaps if you could delicately convey to him that this post is not actually about him, he might take it less personally.

  53. Spinning Liz

    desperate,
    unhealthy-looking,
    rapidly aging,
    batshit-crazy drunk

    One of these things is not like the others,
    One of these things just doesn’t belong,
    Can you tell which thing is not like the others
    By the time I finish my song?

    (Hint: “rapidly aging” is not an insult unless you happen to believe a woman’s value is entirely a function of her youth.)

  54. Lesley

    I was on the other side on this (on the intertubes) until today, and I’ve changed my mind. It’s too easy to behave like a juvenile, bullying cretin on the Internet. People wouldn’t dare say the kind of shit they do in Internet comments face to face. They’d risk being punched.

    As much as I despise people like Coulter and would like nothing more than to see her collapse under the weight of her hatred, I don’t ever want to become like her.

    She’s not even worth the attention, really.

  55. figleaf

    Oops. When I said you were right about Coulter I meant you’re right that a) what she looks like makes no difference (except, perhaps, to the extent her looks get her extra bookings on TV) and b) that one rarely hears the same sort of asshat chatter about ‘winger men’s looks.

    I mean, on any objective scale Richard Cheney is more outrageous, more deranged, far far more conservative, and (more to the point) far more able to *do* evil instead of simply promote it. But nobody says anything about his fricking ugly face, his wattles, his permanent snarl, or his bad aim. (Ok, there was that one incident.)

    I first really noticed it when Janet Reno became Attorney General and everyone started dumping on how she looked, even though by and large she’d been a thoroughly competent State Attorney in Florida. I dunno.

    It’s worth pointing out that while yeah, it’s mostly guys who go in for the skank-talk you hear the same thing from women, even on the left, even some feminsts who really ought to know better. Lord knows you hear about it on the right, although I’m not sure why so many people (not you, of course) should give them a pass just because it’s predictable.

    Anyway, that’s what I meant when I said thanks earlier.

    figleaf

  56. man (read: all men)

    I feel ashamed, over the last week especially, at the level of Not Getting It I’ve seen come from my ‘liberal brethren.’ See, for another example, the conversations taking place in the web/tech blog world. These poor, oppressed straight white men are doing their best to move beyond sexism and discrimination (by ignoring it) if you would just shut up and let them.

    This ties in, of course, with the concept of being post-PC as discussed in some of the comments over on Twisty’s Sarah Silverman post.

    A history of oppression doesn’t matter any more if we pretend it never happened, right? I mean, it wasn’t MY idea in the first place. Why can’t you just get over it?

  57. Margalis

    Can I point out a few things in as non-antagonistic tone as I can?

    First, adding a comment at the top of Mikey’s first post is beyond lame. It is small-minded and cowardly – I find it hard to see how anyone could disagree with that. Especially when the bolded “summary” is barely related to what he actually wrote. Let his words speak for themselves, agree or disagree. To do otherwise is intellectual dishonesty. Threatening to delete or editing people’s posts is weak.

    Second, I don’t see anyone addressing his point. Liberal dudes hate women and queers, conservatives hate women and queers – who does that leave? Not straight men. It is hard to avoid an “all men are evil” vibe when you’ve implied as much. At Salon I was the first person to write a letter saying “stop with the tranny/man/faggot talk.” I’m a straight man. That talk annoys me. I’m no saint but it is hardly fair to lump all men into the “liberal dudes” category, whatever that means.

    This is all somewhat hilarious. Ann Coulter smears someone, then liberals use it as an excuse to smear transexuals, and now you use it as an excuse to smear liberal men. Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry. There is no better or worse brand.

    Mikey was essentially agreeing with you guys.

    I think many of you simply read what you wanted to read and looked for an excuse to attack him.

    His point, if I may paraphrase, is that all straight liberal men don’t fall into your ‘liberal dudes’ stereotype and that by stating so you are just turning off potential allies. I don’t see how that is innacurate.

    Calling Coulter “Mann Coulter” or a tranny or whatever is fucking lame and I wrote a letter to Salon saying just as much – why am I now guilty of some absurd guilt by association just by being a straight male liberal? What did I do again exactly?

    There are plenty of us ‘liberal dudes’ that agree with you – why make it so difficult for us? Why pile on someone who agrees with you?

    Three:

    “Overarching point: Unless a person’s sexual, sartorial or eating/drinking behaviors belie his or her politics, why discuss them at all?”

    I wish this *were* the overarching point, because I agree 100% with this. I’m pretty sure Mikey does too. (Although I don’t speak for him)

    That said, why do I feel like I am being attacked? Can someone point out what I, as a liberal dude, have done wrong exactly?

    Is it because I am a member of the patriarchy, or am I just a ‘brainless moron’? Am I a ‘huffy liberal dude’ who got “called on my shit” whatever the hell that shit is? How do you know me?

    It seems odd to use this opportunity to just cast more aspersions about randomly.

    It’s all the same logic in the end. When someone else insults people without merit that’s bad – when I do it that’s ok.

    It’s just amazing that you can tear a guy to shreds who *agrees with you* for no reason other than that he is a ‘liberal dude’ that some of you so despise.

    If you read what he wrote without trying to hunt for reasons to rip into him it was perfectly reasonable.

    Why make it impossible for someone to *agree* with you?

    Also let me point out that I was *not* offended by the original blog post, I took the whole “liberal dudes” schtick as tongue-in-cheek to some degree. Clearly you mean the foul-mouthed liberal dudes right? Fine. My original response was a bit tongue-in-cheek as well.

    It only bothers me when it becomes clear that some people took the entire thing deadly seriously and honestly seem to believe that all “liberal dudes” are really assholes.

    Mikey obviously did not take the original comments as tongue-in-cheek. (I find myself now wondering if there were event meant to be…) Why not simply say “by liberal dudes we just meant just the asshole ones.”? Problem solved!

    I think the point Mikey was trying to make was that people will agree with you – if you let them.

  58. edith

    Actually, a “skank” is all women who are deemed “not-ugly” enough by the patriarchy to be deemed fuckable, and therefore likely fucking tons of men. That is, all women. Because each man fears, at the end of the day, that we’re gettin’ some without ‘im.

  59. ilyka

    There are plenty of us ‘liberal dudes’ that agree with you – why make it so difficult for us? Why pile on someone who agrees with you?

    I was just having that conversation, actually.

    Why not simply say “by liberal dudes we just meant just the asshole ones.”?

    Readers are assumed to be bright enough to figure that out. Would you rather be treated as though you weren’t?

  60. Margalis

    I don’t fear that ;)

    You can get some without me all you want, what do I care? Knock yourself out…

  61. Bitey

    Oh my God, these trolls are biting my ass. I’m twitching to respond–actually, I have written a very long and obscenity-filled response–but no! Bad Bitey! Must—not—feed—trolls——

  62. Margalis

    “Readers are assumed to be bright enough to figure that out. Would you rather be treated as though you weren’t?”

    Obviously Mikey took this stuff a bit too seriously, but again why rake him over the coals for it when he agreed with you? If you acknowledge it is a simple mis-understanding then just leave it at that…right?

    As I said, the original post doesn’t bother me. ‘Liberal dudes’ is shorthand, I get that. My original comment makes that rather obvious I think.

    It just seems silly that it would be so easy to defuse the situation and maybe inform someone and turn them to your point of view, but instead you run them out of town.

    Pointless escalation by both sides on a rather trivial matter.

    When someone says:

    “Because each man fears, at the end of the day, that we’re gettin’ some without ‘im.”

    Am I supposed to take that as “Because SOME men fear..”? If so, why not just say ‘some men’? It isn’t even any longer!

    Again that doesn’t offend me, I’m not shocked and aghast. But might as well use precise language instead of sloppy generalizations especially when there is no cost in doing so.

    And now I’m a troll….so be it.

    If you have an obscenity-filled response just post it, I’m a big boy! I’m not sure what I said that was oh-so-awful but feel free to enlighten me.

    One person’s trolling is another person’s attempt at somewhat rational discussion.

  63. ilyka

    It just seems silly that it would be so easy to defuse the situation and maybe inform someone and turn them to your point of view.

    I understand your point, but that goes both ways. For example: It would be so easy for commenters to read the comment instructions atop each comment entry field:

    “New to I Blame The Patriarchy? Cast your jaundiced eye upon this before commenting.”

    Failure to cast his jaundiced eye as instructed, incidentally, is why mikey’s comment appears with Twisty’s remarks above it:

    Kindly employ good grammar, syntax, punctuation, and spelling, both when commenting, and during the course of your daily life. Emoticons are discouraged. Capitalize the personal pronoun “I.” Recall that the word is “definitely,” not “definately.” Tighten up those verb tenses. Do not use an ellipsis. That sort of thing. Failure to comply can result in comment deletion purely on the grounds of aesthetic decency.

    While you’re at it, you might as well avoid clichés, too. Resist the compulsion, in your haste to convey sarcasm, to begin with the word “um” or “er.” You are not an edgy young character in a sitcom.

    More importantly, however, it actually would not be “so easy to defuse the situation.” It is actually a lot of work, work I am doing right now, work women do a hugely disproportionate share of in patriarchy, and so maybe you can understand why there must exist some places where we may unburden ourselves of that obligation for a few minutes. This blog is one of those places. It does not exist to persuade or debate. It exists (and again I refer you to the FAQ) “to advance the radical feminist views of Twisty Faster.”

    Finally: I don’t think myself that you are a troll, but consider what you’re doing here and see why some blamers might think otherwise. You aren’t discussing the post; you’re defending your pal, and now I’m complicit in thread-drift by responding to you. Mikey, however, is not the topic. I am pretty sure Twisty didn’t write this to generate discussion of how we can all work harder to be nicer to mikey.

    (Pinko, I love you, but I’ma have to kill you.)

  64. Lesley

    Mikey was essentially agreeing with you guys. I think many of you simply read what you wanted to read and looked for an excuse to attack him.

    It’s pretty clear from his first paragraph that Mikey interpreted the post as a slam against every liberal male:

    Liberal dudes might pretend that being gay is OK for somebody else, but don’t be mistaking them personally for somebody who takes it like a bitch. Liberals hate women — and queers — as much as the next oppressive class of assholes. [end sarcasm]

    and yet you’re saying he was agreeing and taken the wrong way. Is this the Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus trick?

    If he was agreeing, he could have opened with that, then stated his concern that the post seemed to tarnish all liberal males with the same brush.

  65. Lesley

    oh oh, it looks like i buggered the quote. my apologies. i’m huntin’ for what Mikey said, not what he quoted. aaargh.

  66. Lesley

    …if you think you can do any good without people who are different than you, you not only will fail, you sadly missed the point of the entire civil rights movement. Lemme help you with your history. African Americans didn’t need the support of other African Americans in order to gain some of their constitutional rights, they needed the help and support, belief and understanding of the white community. All I’m asking here is you re-think your ‘everybody is my enemy position’.

    there’s considerable condescension here and dissociation too. the cause isn’t his, it’s ours, and if we want him along for the ride, we’d better be more respectful.

  67. Margalis

    I’ll just reproduce verbatim what I posted on another site. (Complete with ellipsis – the horror!)

    On a serious note, people aren’t doing themselves any favors by calling Coulter a transexual or a man or whatever…how petty. Is that fighting fire with fire?

    “She called our guy a faggot so let’s call her a transexual!!”

    Good one clowns. Way to grab the high ground. Who cares if Coulter is a transexual or not? That doesn’t matter. What matters is that Coulter is an idiot.

    Coulter is a small child. We should strive for more.

    Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry. One brand of hate is the same as another.

    Now I’ll go back to my day job as ruthless oppressor.

  68. Margalis

    To Lesley:

    What you say is all true, but from his perspective the original blog post was antagonistic to begin with. And surely you can see why he might think that as it literally did impugn liberal males in general. Antagonism begets antagonism.

    It’s just the age old tale of boy stumbles across website, boy posts without understanding culture, boy gets beat down. Only with added drama.

    It seems strange to make an enemy when you can make a friend. (Care Bears theme begins playing in background)

  69. Twisty

    Thanks to all who participated in the gripping Mikey Discussion. That discussion is NOW CLOSED.

    Next?

  70. amanda w

    I don’t know mikey. But I didn’t see him agreeing with us here. I saw him come here and basically say, “That was mean. I feel insulted. You realize it endangers your movement to insult me, right?” Do you understand why we have to scoff at that?

    Something I think all people have to learn in life is that they are not necessarily good people. “Everybody’s a little bit racist.” And every man, and even every woman, does at least a little bit to reinforce the patriarchy. It is what we were raised in — of course it’s going to happen.

    I’m a white woman, and I have to realize sometimes that yes, being white affords me privilege that a lot of racial minorities don’t have. I’m a straight woman, and I have to realize that sometimes, being heterosexual affords me privilege that non-hets don’t have. And the fact that I am those things, have been those things all my life, that’s the only experience I have — that means that I am going to be ignorant to the experiences of minorities I am not a part of. And even sometimes to the experiences of minorities I am a part of. Racism isn’t necessarily hate — racism is ignorance. You’ve gotta admit we’ve all got a hell of a lot of ignorance on a hell of a lot of topics. We can’t know everything.

    I am disabled, and I realize there are a lot of ways in which the less- or differently-abled are left out in the cold in our society. But individual people, doing individual things, I don’t always necessarily blame. They have never lived my life. They can’t necessarily be expected to know everything about how everyone lives. It would be nice if they’d take a little initiative and look into issues themselves, but not everyone can be a sociologist in their spare time. So I say, fuck it, and blame society. And realize, again, that I’ve got my own privilege I have to face up to.

    But maturity comes in realizing that we can’t know everything, and it’s not fair to pretend we do. Yes, liberal dudes do stupid shit to reinforce the patriarchy sometimes. So do women — so do feminist women! The most important thing to learn here is, DON’T TAKE IT PERSONALLY! Hell, even if it singles you out as a person. Learn to take some responsibility. Learn to realize the world doesn’t revolve around you. Learn to have a little empathy for your fellow humans. Learn to seek to learn. Don’t assume you’ve got it all down by virtue of being your bad self.

  71. Twisty

    Well, I’m glad amanda w made it in under the wire. Excellent points all.

    I’m not so sure that people should’t take it personally, though. The key is refraining from the angry, ill-considered lash-out in response.

  72. amanda w

    … so don’t feel all threatened and insulted when your particular class is singled out, and not qualified to your taste so as to be sure to exclude you. Even if you didn’t do the things being discussed at the moment, you’ve done plenty of other stupid shit, so you can’t feign righteous anger that someone is suggesting you are not good and clean and pure! You’re not. So cut the bullshit.

    We aren’t seeking to tarnish your personal reputation. We’re bringing up issues that come up as a result of living in the patriarchy, trying to dig down to the root of those issues and figure out all the reasons why they happen, and trying to figure out the best battle approach to remedy the problem. Sometimes, you are going to be implicated. Guess what? So are we. Deal with it. And maybe, just maybe, sit back and watch the conversation with a sympathetic eye, and try to figure out what you can do to help — instead of getting all upset that we aren’t worshipping at your feet for being so kind enough to lend us your assistance.

  73. amanda w

    *ahem* shutting up now.

  74. Lily Underwood

    Twist on, Twisty Faster! Twisty Faster! Twisty Faster!

  75. Molly, NYC

    (Hint: “rapidly aging” is not an insult unless you happen to believe a woman’s value is entirely a function of her youth.)

    Spinning Liz – I’m a good bit older than Coulter (and you, I’m guessing), and no, do not believe that my value, or anyone else’s, entirely diminishes with age.

    But my post wasn’t about everyone’s general worth; it was about the looks of someone who (a) has built her career and ego in part on the diminishing, age-related resource of conventional prettiness; and (b) has absolutely no problem with implying that (i) you (or I), based entirely on our politics, are too fugly for words, and (ii) this is a reflection of our general worth.

    Ranking on anyone in sexist terms is something we should avoid for our own sakes. But for Coulter’s sake? Screw her.

    A few other points:

    1. My encroaching age bothers me some–but for Coulter, it must be like water torture.

    2. If you don’t take care of yourself, you do age rapidly, so it ties in with her being unhealthy-looking–a qualifier that you apparently found acceptable. If I were her friend, I’d tell her to quit the booze and the smokes. Since I am not, I repeat: Screw her.

  76. B. Dagger Lee

    My Dual-purpose Sausage-making Textual-analysis Machine with the Idiocracy attachment says: “Mikey to Twisty: “Not now, I’m ‘batin’!”

    yrs, BDL

    P.S. I added another attachment to it—The Narrative Arc Predicktitater–and while it blew a fuse when I used it, I think the results are fairly reliable: 75% chance that Starbuck’s going to upload to the Big Vagina in the Sky aka Eye of Jupiter tonight or next week.

  77. ginmar

    Wow, wasn’t that patronizing. I notice you totally left out any mention of whether or not the liberal dude criticism was valid—which it was—and also didn’t assess whether or not Mikey boy’s sensation of being greeted with antagonism was accurate. I’m kind of sick of liberal dudes taking it upon themselves to explain other liberal dudes, especially when they’re sort of trying to smooth it over. When it comes to women, I can’t tell the conservative guys and the liberal guys apart. That’s your problem, not mine.

  78. Twisty

    MollyNYC, it is not customary for radical feminsts to give a crap what Ann Coulter looks like. Kindly air these pointless views elsewhere. Or preferably nowhere.

    And now, if anyone would like to discuss the actual post, let’s carry on.

  79. MzNicky

    Twisty: Of course your point about the use of hateful, bigoted language to show how much one despises the politics of those who use hateful, bigoted language is spot on. As a regular visitor and sometime-commenter at several different liberal dude blogs, I have often been struck by just how quickly “liberal” ideals evaporate when the topic being discussed is Ann Coulter or someone like her. Suddenly they all forget their manners and the misogyny comes pouring out. It’s like a pop-off valve releasing all this pent-up steam. Finally!, they seems to say, We get to use bad words and denigrate someone, cuz who really cares about what women are or do or say? Same goes for gays and lesbians, although those usual ugly stereotypes and slurs are deployed in a faux-ironic way in order to maintain the facade of the political progressive while indulging the repressed bigot. Call them on their hypocritical sexism and usually you get tagged as the resident feminist scold. Fuck if I care. If it just makes ‘em examine their own attitudes once in a while, it’s totally fine with me.

  80. Cass

    amanda w, I’d like to take two out of your last three comments and tape them to my wall.

  81. B. Dagger Lee

    Regarding the post: Yes! And, as we know from our Firestone, forces trying to resurrect, recreate and enforce laws against abortion and birth control are trying to control and hem in the sex class by enforced reproduction. (But that’s a discussion for tomorrow.)

    The boundaries between men and the sex class must be distinct; men who choose to be part of the sex class are no longer men and are also blurring the boundary between men and the sex class, threatening to collapse two distinct groups into each other.

    Every full-grown man has had at least twenty years of acculturation by violent hazing from their peers. Don’t be a Pussy! Don’t be a Faggot! Don’t be a Baby! As a defensive psychic maneuver everything bad is offloaded to women, or babies, or homosexuals (who are not men). Every one of those men who labels Coulter a faggot, trannie etc, has picked the most wounding of insults that was used by his peers to whip him into a patriarchal shape.

    –BDL

  82. Mar Iguana

    “Liberals hate women — and queers — as much as the next oppressive class of assholes.”

    “I’m pretty sure you’d concluded that long before you published your textbook example of confirmation bias.” thebastardsonsofalgoldstein

    You’re right. Radical feminists concluded liberal boys hate them as much as any other batch of boys on January 29, 1969, the day The Revolution died of terminal misogyny.

    Mobe (Mobilization to End The War in Vietnam) organized a march and rally in D.C. on that day, Nixon’s inauguration. What happened to women at that rally illustrates that even the most progressive/liberal of boys are unwilling to renounce their patriarchal privilege. In the ’60s, they fought for the humanity of black men but when women voiced they’d kinda like to get in on this equal rights stuff, male cowardice was exposed. Those women who had the temerity to stand up and insist they wanted to be more than the coffee makers and paper fetchers in the movement were immediately and obscenely jeered off the stage.

    SDS veteran Marilyn Webb stood before that rally and said, “We as women are oppressed. We, as supposedly the most privileged in this society, are mutilated as human beings so that we will learn to function within a capitalist system…as objects and property” She brought the house down, just not in a good way. The testerical response in that “revolutionary” audience: “TAKE HER OFF THE STAGE AND FUCK HER!” “TAKE HER DOWN A DARK ALLEY!” “TAKE IT OFF!”

    Over the pandemonium, Shulamith Firestone walked onto the stage and attacked back, “Let’s start talking about where you live, baby, and wonder whether capitalism and all those other isms don’t just begin at home…Because we women often have to wonder if you mean what you say about revolution or whether you just want more power for yourselves.”

    Rather than bring these “revolutionaries” under control, the women were hustled off the stage for fear of a riot starting. It’s always safer to kick the dog rather than the master.

    Nixon ended the draft, satisfying the anti-war (or, more accurately, anti-draft) boys. The Free Speech (or, more accurately the anti-woman) boys won their right to no-holds-barred porn with Larry Flint (?!) as their hero. After that, the boys ran back to daddy’s barn, married a mombot just like the one that married dear, ol’ dad and went into daddy’s bidness, lulled with bread and circuses.

    There can be no such thing as class in a true democracy. This is where liberal and progressive boys hit a snag since they don’t want to free the sex class any more than their daddies do. And, their daddies, going on thousands of years now.

    “Goodbye, goodbye forever, counterfeit left, counter-left, male-dominated cracked-glass-mirror reflection of the Amerikan nightmare. Women are the real left” Robin Morgan, February 9, 1970

    Feminism is too revolutionary for revolutionaries much less you cute, little liberal/progressive boys.

  83. Cass

    “I’m not so sure that people shouldn’t take it personally, though.”

    You can take it as an opportunity to add to your store of self-knowledge, rather than as an assault on your ego. The latter guarantees, however well-mannered you are, that you’re going to come out of the encounter no wiser than before.

  84. MaggieIII

    One thing that many liberal bloggers have done quite effectively is to capture and illustrate the ways that some conservative politicians try to have it both ways: They want to seem “mainstream” and electable, but they also want to simultaneously energize “the base” – people who can raise money and elevate their visibility and political viability. Liberal bloggers who can not only find and quote newspaper and magazine articles but also radio and television transcripts and video clips illustrating the inconsistencies and instrumentalism of governmental officials and/or those who seek election do a real service for democracy.

    But, some of them engage in the some sorts of behaviors they criticize in others. They feign horror when right wingers unleash sexist diatribes against women like Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi, but seconds later they themselves will make very gendered attacks against people like Ann Coulter. Maybe sometimes this is a result of cluelessness, but I think most times they are “talking in code” and “energizing the base” too – the base of white men who need to be reassured that despite the ascendancy of women like Boxer and Hillary Clinton and Pelosi, and despite the fact that the majority of reliable Democratic voters are female, white men are still in firm control, and will remain so. Convincing liberal women to join them in the sexist mockery of conservative women does this nicely. To move this away from Sadly, No for a second, read the post and associated comments here:

    (in case the tags don’t work: http://tbogg.blogspot.com/2007/03/later-there-was-somewhat-awkward.html )

    On the surface Ben Shapiro and Daw Eden are the targets, but beneath a very thin veneer, the message is: DOOD! It’s fun and perfectly acceptable to make fun of lesbians and women who don’t want to have sex with you!

  85. Bitey

    Many thanks to ilyka for dealing with that mob last night. I don’t know how you kept your temper. They were so entitled and patronizing, I wanted to crack their heads together like a bunch of coconuts. Whew!

    Returning now to regularly scheduled programing:

    1. I actually already posted this question, but I’m afraid it got lost in the din, so I’ll reiterate: How does one keep one’s temper when dealing with entitled, patronizing asshats? I hate to lose my temper. I always look foolish. Help!

    2. MzNicky has an excellent point when she says, “Finally!, they seems to say, We get to use bad words and denigrate someone, cuz who really cares about what women are or do or say?” I would take this a bit further, and note that these ass-biting nice guys are so gleeful because Ann Coulter, being of the opposite political persuasion and therefore morally inferior, is an available target for their long-pent vitriol. There aren’t that many targets left. Only fags, sex workers, fat people, Arabs, welfare mothers, illegal immigrants, the French, and three or four dozen other groups. Which sounds like a lot, but it’s nothing to these spoiled infants who are raised to believe that the world is their oyster.

    It reminds me of nothing more than those teenage monsters who beat and kill homeless people. They’ve found someone lower in the social power structure than they are, over whom they can claim moral superiority, so they use them as a target of their immense frustration. Most of those young horrors express something nigh on to surprise at themselves in retrospect, but at the time, I’m sure all they felt was relief.

    (Please note that “ass-biting” is being used to describe people who bite my ass, i.e. cause me suffering and irritation, make my ass swell indignantly, etc. It is not meant as a slur against those who pleasure their partners with nips to the posterior. You go on with your sexy self.)

  86. Twisty

    Well, Bitey, in answer to your question #1, how to keep from losing your temper when dealing with “asshats”: It is preferable not to engage them at all, at least not on the blog.

    Sorry, I know that’s not really an answer, but your query reminds me that I should probably put something about this in the new FAQ (currently in re-write). It has long been my profoundest wish that commenters who do not naturally possess the temperament of an English butler should decline to answer any but civil discourse. 99.9% of the “issues” brought up by non-blaming dudes are already addressed in the FAQ; I know it’s asking a lot, but I would be highly appreciative if, whenever possible (i.e., when a caustic one-liner won’t take care of it) blamers would merely redirect these knobs to that informative page and leave it at that.

    It is well and truly disheartening to spend all afternoon writing a nice post, only to have some jackass completely ignore it in order to take a swipe at the stupid feminists, but the real melancholy sets in when I must watch in despair as our eloquent commentariat is dragged over the precipice.

    On the upside, I am happy to observe that I Blame the Patriarchy remains for the most part remarkably troll-free.

  87. thebewilderness

    Bitey,
    I think it is easier to address the underlying entitlement in a discussion with someone you know and perhaps care about, than with a stranger. Still, I think the sense of entitlement is what brings the dismissive, patronising language, so that is what needs to be addressed first.
    Shakes had a brief post some time ago that was directly on point. Mr Shakes has said something to the effect that if she were not a feminist a particular thing he had done would not anger her. She explained that were she not a feminist it would still anger her, but she would simply think him an asshole. Instead she realizes that he too is soaking in the patriarchy. This makes it possible to express anger without contempt.
    As the response to Coulters professional bigotry demonstrates, it is very easy for the entitled to respond to contempt with contempt, bigotry with bigotry. We are trained to it from our earliest days. It is one of the most effective tools of the patriarchy.

  88. ginmar

    Reminds of reading a book called “Men on Rape” by Tim Beneke, in wihch he asked men about their rape fantasies, amongst other things. These men had examples of ‘bad’ women they wanted to punish, and they fantasized about punishing by rape. The badness made this not just possible, but good. These guys had any number of excuses, and frankly, when I see so-called liberal guys piling on the go after Coulter in the sexist terms they’ve learned to love since childhood, it makes me want to be gay.

  89. ginmar

    Dammit, where’d my comment go? I was remarking on the book “Men on Rape” by Tim Beneke in which supposed liberal dudes took it upon themselves to justify rape fantasies by specifying that they would only ‘punish’ bad women—Nazi camp guards, things like that. That way they got to combine business with pleasure. It was chilling, how desperately they wanted to justify their fantasies—-and it’s chilling to see how when liberal guys act this way, you can’t tell them from conservobot guys.

  90. Dot

    In a way, I think of Twisty like I remember Br’er Rabbitt, from an old, very very old animation. She knows the briar patch, and she is not afraid to jump into it, to show us the way out of it, when the patriarchists would rather we turn on its thorns and pricks shouting for help. Or that we attack their tar babies, getting lost deeper and deeper into their sticky pits of obfuscation.

    I read Twisty and her commenters every day. The clarity is wonderful. It tears away the veil from the eyes. Thank you all.

  91. ChapstickAddict

    How does one keep one’s temper when dealing with entitled, patronizing asshats? I hate to lose my temper. I always look foolish. Help!

    Take Twisty’s advice and just don’t engage them. (And I should take that advice too.) It’s a lot easier on a blog than it is in person. The most effective strategy for doing it in person is to just step out of the room. It lets the person know that what they just said was not OK and it gives them time to contemplate it, without you getting egg on your face. (I learned this from growing up in a family that bought a “Save The Males” bumper sticker to support the anti-female sentiment at a particular Southern military college.)

  92. Bitey

    Yeah. I’m telling you, it took a great force of will to stay out of it as much as I did last night. What y’all are saying reminds me of Frown Power, which is good advice. Thanks.

    Oh, and now that the smoke has cleared, the thing from mikey’s post that most had me clawing at my eyes was this gem: “Lemme help you with your history. African Americans didn’t need the support of other African Americans in order to gain some of their constitutional rights, they needed the help and support, belief and understanding of the white community.” I guess I find it actually shocking that a self-professed bona fide liberal could say this with a straight face, much less use it as an excuse to rescue us lil’ ladies from ourselves. I suppose I’m young in this yet.

    Gonna go stare despairingly at a wall now.

  93. Lesley

    But, some of them engage in the some sorts of behaviors they criticize in others. They feign horror when right wingers unleash sexist diatribes against women like Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi, but seconds later they themselves will make very gendered attacks against people like Ann Coulter. Maybe sometimes this is a result of cluelessness, but I think most times they are “talking in code” and “energizing the base” too – the base of white men who need to be reassured that despite the ascendancy of women like Boxer and Hillary Clinton and Pelosi, and despite the fact that the majority of reliable Democratic voters are female, white men are still in firm control, and will remain so. Convincing liberal women to join them in the sexist mockery of conservative women does this nicely.

    While your first two sentences are, unfortunately, true, regarding your subsequent points about code and cohersion… my impression, having spent time reading tbogg’s blog is that there is a double standard. Women are admired, respected and included, but they are still sexual objects. See the occasional posts where pix of Hollywood babes are posted and their various physical attributes discussed and dissected. I wonder how many readers are turned off by this but never say anything, for “fear” of being called a prude or a bitch, and accused of spoiling their innocent fun. Though it pisses me off, I’ve gotten so used to the boyz will be boyz routines, I put up with it.

  94. Lesley

    dayum, I thought blockquoting worked. the first paragraph above is a quote from another poster. second is my response to it. y’all need a preview button!

  95. Lesley

    My apologies for previously buggering up the following:

    But, some of them engage in the some sorts of behaviors they criticize in others. They feign horror when right wingers unleash sexist diatribes against women like Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi, but seconds later they themselves will make very gendered attacks against people like Ann Coulter. Maybe sometimes this is a result of cluelessness, but I think most times they are “talking in code” and “energizing the base” too – the base of white men who need to be reassured that despite the ascendancy of women like Boxer and Hillary Clinton and Pelosi, and despite the fact that the majority of reliable Democratic voters are female, white men are still in firm control, and will remain so. Convincing liberal women to join them in the sexist mockery of conservative women does this nicely.

    While your first two sentences are, unfortunately, true, regarding your subsequent points about code and cohersion… my impression, having spent time reading tbogg’s blog is that there is a double standard. Women are admired, respected and included, but they are still sexual objects. See the occasional posts where pix of Hollywood babes are posted and their various physical attributes discussed and dissected. I wonder how many readers are turned off by this but never say anything, for “fear” of being called a prude or a bitch, and accused of spoiling their innocent fun. Though it pisses me off, I’ve gotten so used to the boyz will be boyz routines, I put up with it.

  96. Lesley

    There are plenty of us ‘liberal dudes’ that agree with you – why make it so difficult for us? Why pile on someone who agrees with you?

    may I just add that I rarely, if ever, see the liberal dudes “who agree” address the liberal dudes who behave like jackasses. For once I’d like to see one of the sympathetic tuned-in dudes kick one of the jackasses in the ass. Step up to the plate. I can only assume they figure it’s a) not their problem or b) no big deal.

  97. Lauren

    may I just add that I rarely, if ever, see the liberal dudes “who agree” address the liberal dudes who behave like jackasses. For once I’d like to see one of the sympathetic tuned-in dudes kick one of the jackasses in the ass. Step up to the plate. I can only assume they figure it’s a) not their problem or b) no big deal.

    So, I might add, no blame to Pinko Punko who was trying to do the right thing by leading he who shall not be named to a grade-A blamer for some instruction, instead of allowing him to continue using patriarchal contempt of women to defend women from patriarchal contempt.

    Derail it did, but bonus points nonetheless.

  98. MaggieIII

    Pinko Punko probably had his heart in the right place. Nevertheless, he could have done some substantive blaming in the Sadly, No! thread and/or at his own blog. Adding acid to water is fine, adding water to acid, not so much.

  99. MzNicky

    Lesley: If I’m not mistaken, you and I have had occasion to get each other’s back at tBogg, Sadly No, and/or some of the other allegedly Liberal Dude Blogs (or “LDBs”, as I’ll now think of them). Some fellow feministas and I are constantly trying to tidy up and offer helpful instruction when things get especially piggy, as they frequently do, at Jesus’ General. As someone once pointeed out —perhaps it was you— there’s no more sexism on LDBs than on the conservative blogs. The point being, of course, that there should be a whole helluva lotta difference at the LDBs that call themselves progressive and, as at least one does, even “feminist.” Seems to be particularly problematic at the blogs, such as the aforementioned ones, where a curious blend of towel-snapping high-school “humor” and smug grad student-caliber hipness and know-it-allness is highly prized. Good-bye to all that. I’ll continue to box their ears and call them on their bullshit because, well, someone has to do it.

  100. BubbasNightmare

    Somewhere in the IBTP FAQ lies an essential point:

    “My blog, my discretion.”

    I would make a cross-stitch hanging and hang it over the computer–if I knew how to cross-stitch.

    The Firestone Marathon starts tomorrow. I just finished the book, and I am really looking forward to a rollicking week/month/whatever.

  101. Lesley

    I’m sorry to say I’ve rarely challenged the good ol’ boy commentary (spoken as if women aren’t even in the room). Not sure I’ll stay quiet anymore though. I was chagrined to read this (loaded with irony) comment, and yet when I did, I didn’t think twice about it at the time it was posted. But as you can see, it niggled at me and I’ve commented on it here.

  102. defenestrated

    Hell, in my pink-ghetto years we used to call the lunatics “full moon callers.” They really DID call/visit close to the full moon. Seriously

    After some internal debate, I decided that I am indeed enough of a nerd to de-lurk myself and say – that’s a little redundant, Hedonistic Pleasureseeker. You know why they’re called lunatics, right?

    :) /nitpick

    And for those of us on the west coast of the u.s., there was no visible eclipse, but there was a strikingly bright (like hurts to look at bright) full moon…so I don’t see “full moon and lunar eclipse” as at all redundant ;)

  103. Sara

    This is something that has bugged me for a long time. Thank you for bringing it up.

  104. Dana

    Bigotry is bigotry and no kind is worse than any other? That has GOT to be a white guy talking. Because I could have SWORN that bigotry backed by political, cultural, and economic power is EXPONENTIALLY worse than bigotry from the less-powerful or powerless.

    When women have been running things for ohIdon’tknow SEVERAL MILLENIA and MEN become the second-class gender, THEN and ONLY then will I believe that women being bigoted against men carries equal weight to the bigotry we face FROM men NOW.

    And I don’t mean “running things” as in “bending the ear of the guy I’m fucking so he’ll do things my way two times out of five,” I mean “telling the guy I’m fucking what he will and will not do with his life because if he doesn’t obey me I’ll put him out on the street with the kids and he’ll be on welfare the next five years.” Not that that, uh, happens to women NOW at the hands of men, or anything.

  105. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    defenestrated ;-) but of course! I also found it amusing that Random Dude dropped in to advise a witch and bedside astrologer about the MOON for goddess’ sake! “Full moon” and “lunar eclipse” are certainly NOT redundant, as any one (with a, say, third-grade education?) can reason out.

    But no matter. Thank you Twisty for the taco inspiration (I ate four last night) and the entertainment. It was sick entertainment, and a drama that did not need to take place to be sure, but I got my jollies. Sometimes Random Dudes, liberal and conservative alike, need to learn the hard way that dropping in condescendingly is not the most efficient way to win friends and influence people.

  106. kate

    MzNicky, I’ve seen you commenting at the general’s site, which is about the only boy-site I ever bother to venture into. But I’ve only corrected or attempted to point out the painfully obvious probably just once or twice. I’ve seen you’re comments there and they’re right on. Working all day around males, I get enough cluelessness in real time.

  107. Chris Clarke

    On the upside, I am happy to observe that I Blame the Patriarchy remains for the most part remarkably troll-free.

    I’ve been distracted lately.

    This is a wonderful post, Twisty. Thanks.

  108. blithe damner

    " Lemme help you with your history. African Americans didn’t need the support of other African Americans in order to gain some of their constitutional rights, they needed the help and support, belief and understanding of the white community.

    WOW- What won’t White Dudes take credit for? Let me help you with your history. Black folks did indeed need to galvanize other Black folks in order to acquire their basic human rights. While White Man’s help was greatly appreciated it was not nearly as necessary as the solidarity we required from within our own community. In case you’ve forgotten who was solely to blame for the denial of Black folks’ constitutional rights, allow me to enlighten you: it was White Man. I have no qualms about stating that. To reiterate- the civil rights movement was founded by, supported by and achieved its goals through the tireless effort of countless Black People! It’s true that many whites were our allies, but to take credit for the sacrifices and accomplishments of generations of Black people is just arrogant enough to affirm Twisty’s sentiments about so-called “Liberal Dudes” Oh! And just to adjoin this to the topic at hand: if someone has the ovaries to promulgate the Liberal Dude’s misogynist, homo/trans-phobic, hypocritical psuedo-humorous prattling, don’t respond by spewing patronizing, self-congratulatory bullshit. It only certifies her assertion.

    .mkthnx.

  109. Blip

    “cisgendered women”.

    I love you, Twisty. Besides supporting my endeavor to be a more enlightened 20-something female, your splendid prose surely helps boost my GRE Verbal score! I wish you toothsome taco delights daily as I get my fill of blamin’.

    From a longtime reader, first-time commenter who barely survived organic chemistry some years back.

  110. tbogg

    If you take away my “curious blend of towel-snapping high-school “humor” and smug grad student-caliber hipness and know-it-allness” all that I’ll have left is the dogs… and that’s no way to run a humor blog.

    As an aside, my descriptions of the lovely and talented mrs tbogg are for the most part in-jokes between the two of us. She is, in fact, quite elegant and intelligent and has a wicked sense of humor which is why we have been married for twenty-three years.

    She was the one who complained when the lovely and talented Casey was bogarting all the superlatives.

  111. MzNicky

    “If you take away my ‘curious blend of towel-snapping high-school “humor” and smug grad student-caliber hipness and know-it-allness’ all that I’ll have left is the dogs.”

    tBogg: Not true. You’ll still have your “Pre-Friday Random Top 10.”

  112. Violet

    The repulsive (and ultimately irrelevant) Ann Coulter exists to give Dude Nation (aka the “liberal” media) an excuse to publicly vent their misogyny and homophobia without being called on it. She is the Emmanuel Goldstein for a generation born after 1984- a largely fictional media creation that allows irate pale males an outlet for their suppressed women hating impulses.

    I’m not sure how these liberal dudes are any different from the mulleted, Cheeto-stained commentariat at Perez Hilton et al, weighing in on Beyonce’s “booty” and X-tina’s overall “hotness” factor, except that they don’t need a spell check to type out “tranny” and “skank”. While completely comfortable spewing anti-gay, and sexist epithets to public female figures, they are usually careful to conceal their racism – that is, until a radical feminist blogger gets them so bent out of shape that they do the cyber version of the involuntary “Sieg Heil” and start spluttering about the ingratitude of black folks, who don’t recognize the White Dude role in ending slavery.

  113. Sylvanite

    Well, Mar Iguana, organic chem is the seventh layer of Hell.

  114. Mar Iguana

    Sylvanite, I don’t understand.

  115. Bug

    I’m coming a bit late to the party, but thanks, Twisty, for posting on this. I went on the Think Progress site on Friday and was shocked at the comments and the level of denial in the hypocritical commenters. I posted my thoughts and was told that the other posters were just venting, letting off a little steam.

    Honestly, there were so many horrible “tranny” related comments that I was hoping it was some kind of right-wing joke to make us liberals look like idiots. But, no, apparently our supposed allies can do it all by themselves. Why can’t they see how stoopid it makes them look?

    It’s really quite simple. These “progresives” know that Coulter calling Edwards a “faggot” was a horrible, dangerous insult because, whether or not Coulter herself believes that it’s bad to be gay, she understands that our society looks down upon it and she was using that impression to get a reaction. The posters did the same exact thing. Redardless of how they feel about being gay or transgender or even just a masculine woman, they said these things because they know them to be effective insults in our society. Therefore, they acknowledge the negative power of these words and they draw upon that power to get a laugh or to vent their anger or whatever. Same thing.

  116. blondie

    When Mel Gibson, the actor who played Kramer, and retired NBA player Tim Hardaway (?) spewed their disgusting hate speech into the national spotlight, they (sort of) had to make immediate retreats/apologies. I think this shows a national awareness of how such hate-speech is not okay. Yet, Coulter can get applauded for such foul stuff at a convention of conservatives, including presidential candidates. The party of family values really needs to clean up its act. How Coulter and Malkin, let alone Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Hannity, et al. can continue to make it into the mainstream media with their sheer spite is truly astounding.

    The way to shove this stuff back into their faces is not to respond in kind. Duh-uh.

    Of course, it’s not only lazy, but bigoted, juvenile, and mindless to attack Coulter and Malkin, not for their hate speech and wrongheadedness, but for their gender, appearance, and/or sexual orientation. People who consider themselves liberal, but who think such personal attacks are great fun or funny need to conduct some self-examination.

    You know what, self-described “liberal” dudes? (You know who you are — you-re the ones who get all pissy and offended when women and gay folk don’t fall all over each other laughing at your women and gay jokes and then kiss your little tootsies for not throwing them outa the clubhouse; ’cause you could if you wanted, couldn’t ya?)

    Here’s one thing about humor. It has lots of sources — more like water than oil. Jokes can be funny even if they are about something other than sex. Like the 3-legged dog who walks into a bar and says, “Ima lookin’ fer the man who shot my paw.” (kills me ever’ time) Jokes don’t have to be all, “take my wife, please.” Or, jokes can be funny and about sex, without being hurtful or shaming, “No, Mr. Genie-in-a-bottle, I didn’t wish for a 12-inch pianist.” There’s a million of ‘em.

    Why be so lazy as to grab the easy insult? Or are you just a little more like Ann Coulter than you’d like to admit?

  117. EvilOars.

    Maybe I’m just not homophobic enough, but the only thing I think of when I read someone call Coulter a trannie or the like is how grossly hypocritical she is. Even if she’s not (and I would guess she’s not), her only function is to insult anyone for being anything, which is undeniably hypocritical. To suggest that she is what she tries to get people to hate is not to perpetuate the hate, it is to expose the ugliness beneath

  118. Sylvanite

    Sorry, Mar Iguana. I’m assuming that Twisty’s coinage of the word “cisgender” is a play on it being the opposite of “transgender.” In organic chemistry, some molecules have the same atoms and bonds, but are arranged slightly differently – these molecules are then named trans or cis molecules.

  119. eric

    [T]he only thing I think of when I read someone call Coulter a trannie or the like is how grossly hypocritical she is.

    Which is as if to say: Trannies are grossly hypocritical. While stating the fact that many closeted people are actually gay themselves might not be a damnable offense, slinging back “Skank”, “Tranny”, “Man Coulter” and the like as insults certainly is – and not because anyone here cares to protect Ann’s feelings.

    The point being – to use “Tranny” as an insult, actually insults an entire group of people more than it possibly insults the intended victim.

    Let me demonstrate. You are such a man, and probably white to boot.

    Now the rest of us white men get to complain about how our feelings have been hurt, because I lumped us all together as inconsiderate asshats (to use local parlance), when really some of us are “very sensitive” and “needed allies”. The problem with this demonstration, of course, is that you and I are, in fact, men, that no one really uses that as an insult (though maybe they should), and that we already take it personally and gripe about our hurt feelings before anyone has even bothered to insult us (let alone oppress us for millenia).

  120. eric

    Oops. “Closeted people are actually gay themselves” would, of course, be redundant. That should read “Homophobic people, etc.”

  121. Twisty

    Twisty’s coinage of the word “cisgender” is a play on it being the opposite of “transgender.”

    I make up words all the time, but this one’s not one of mine. See Wikipedia.

  122. Metal Prophet

    Whenever Ann Coulter spews forth some of her hateful nonsense, you often see liberal dudes trashing her in most un-progressive ways at places like Daily Kos, which, admittedly, aren’t terribly feminist-friendly. I like to helpfully make a list of non-sexist, non-homophobic, and non-transphobic terms that liberal dudes can call Ms. Coulter. Terms such as:

    Asshole
    Dumbass
    Evil
    Nazi
    fascist
    Shit-for-brains

    These terms are all accurate descriptions, without being sexist, homophobic, or transphobic. Though, I think Twisty put it best when she described Ms. Coulter as being a “maggot chewing on the rotten corpse of human enlightenment.”

  123. Twisty

    Someone at, I think, Sadly, No called her “a leaky bag of dogshit.” Vivid.

  124. Mar Iguana

    Thanks Sylvanite. I couldn’t get past figuring out moles in chemistry.

  125. tigtog

    I rather like your “smirkbot”, Twisty. I think it sums up the hypocrisy, the cynical polemic and the mechanical ultra-fem grooming combo perfectly.

  126. Sylvanite

    I’m actually rather disappointed that “cisgender” isn’t a Twisty coinage. Darn!

  127. EvilOars.

    Eric, I still don’t read those names as being insulting to her because being that thing would be undesirable. I only read it as, again, exposing the problems that come with her being willing to make anyone the object of bigoted hatred. That the same could of course be applied to her and anyone else, which, I think, takes some of the power of hate speech away from her.

    Maybe I’m missing your point, but if there was a tranny who was passing herself off as a born woman and made a career off of inciting hate crimes against people facing similar struggles I wuould think that calling her on it would not at all reflect badly on other trannies, just her.

  128. saltyC

    EvilOars, you’re up a crick without a paddle.
    Those words have collateral damage, it’s not all about Anne.

    Coulter is the most effective gender-baiting tool the right ever invented, and liberal dudes are snapping it up and becoming herrings getting shot in a barrel.

    I’m very, very sorry.

  129. saltyC

    I know it should be trout, I meant to put red in front of herring.

  130. EvilOars.

    I understand what you’re saying, those words mean different things to different people in the same context. In one way that is part of both of our points.

    I guess I just get frustrated that there doesn’t seem to be a clean enough way to expose the inherent hypocrisy in this kind of blanket hate speech. So far I haven’t seen anyone come up with a good way of taking that kind of power away. Obviously throwing around more slurs is not going to help, and everyone seems incapable of ignoring her. If only we could take the debate we have here to a broader spectrum…

  131. maribelle

    Well I missed the whole brew ha ha–

    A couple thoughts from the peanut gallery:

    1. RE: dealing with “asshats”

    I respect Twisty’s pithy one liners that usually take care of trolls and other vermin. Clearly not everyone who comes here and disagrees is a “troll”–some of them are just clueless dudes that might actually be reachable.

    I have read several comments by men here and on other blogs where they talk about how they didn’t Get It, until enough interactions with women online (sometimes adversarial, sometimes not)started to open up their eyes. I totally agree that it’s not our job to coddle them and nurse them along. Indeed, the Blaming experience can be harsh, but bracing, and just what one needs to get a jolt, like a riding crop on a horse’s ass. Gets you moving.

    That said, on the grand color wheel of asshats, these two jokers barely rated a beige. I think it’s important to know your enemy, I also think it’s important to know when your enemy is driving a tank and when he rides up on a Shetland pony; it helps to vary battle tactics is all I’m saying.

    RE: ignoring them:

    Why ignore when you can have a civil conversation, or a lively debate that might get all of us thinking. Yes, the regular posters, too–we all have a lot to learn about everyone else we share the world with and I include myself in that number.

    2. Re: Mikey’s rewriting of the Civil Rights Era

    Buried within his cluelessly privileged diatribe was a tiny sliver of truth–Women can use all the allies we can get. And how much easier would this whole revolution thing be if we could get some men to understand our POV by reason and enlightenment rather than by taking up arms to fight them all?

    Yes, African-Americans had to rally themselves and their communities, get past generations of internalized racism, fight, bleed and die to get civil rights. They did the heavy lifting.

    And they were trying to convince those with the power, the whites, to allow them to come forward and understand that civil rights were universal. Whites weren’t the principle movers of the civil rights movement, but they did have to be convinced that it was the right thing to do. That convincing was the heart of all the efforts by the blacks to achieve equality. I have long thought that the term Civil Rights Movement was a wonderful title because who can be against civil rights unless they are an asshole?

    3. RE the use of the term “cisgender”, please note the following post by Uppity Biscuit:

    Do not call me cisgender. You are demeaning me with your word.

    I get to name me. You do not get to name me. You are not allowed to re-classify me according to what language suits your needs.

    Males have been naming and defining women for a millennium and more. When you demand the right and proceed to take authority to name and define me, without my permission, you embody and keep company with male’s and man’s traditions.

    Historically, regarding all other human/civil rights movements, the idea was, oppressed people named THEMSELVES. They didn’t re-name their oppressors. To do so would have either been laughable or dangerous, mostly dangerous. Imagine black people telling white people that from now on, white people are going to be called ‘(whatever)’.

    The fact that you presume to re-name me shows that I am indeed not your oppressor. You presume to re-name women because in fact women are NOT your oppressor, and even you know as much.

  132. Alarming Female

    You know, I go out of town for a week, sans Internet, and miss all the fun.

    Yet Cassidy brought up a question that no one answered, and that did pertain to the post, so if I may?

    I, too, and a teacher, and deal often with teens who use the words “gay” and “fag” or “faggot” as insults (my dictionary has red-lined faggot–?)

    My response (which I learned from a dear, queer friend) has become, “What do you mean when you say that?”

    Because gentle is often the best way to deal with teenage egos, I wait for them to admit that they use gay and similar words to mean stupid, boring, etc. THEN I ask them why being gay would equate with those unfavorable adjectives.

    Of course, sometimes they mean to suggest that their target is, in fact, homosexual, and that this is the insult. Then I’m not so gentle when I insist that their efforts to insult someone by insinuating that the person is of a particular sexual orientation is akin to efforts to insult someone by referring to their cultural or religious background.

    Sadly, they’re still young, and sometimes all they learn is that they’d better not use those terms in a derogatory way around me, because I’ll call them on it. But it’s a start.

    Actually, I have much hope for this upcoming generation when it comes to acceptance and embrace of GBLTQ individuals and culture. I think they might really make a difference.

    Of course, Oxford University Press is no fucking help.

  133. Aaron

    Maybe commenting on a four-year-old post is irrelevant. I’m taking my chances. I have just noticed this same attitude again and again and again among progressives (including those who are straight and gay, mature and immature) regarding S. Palin.

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