http://www.smh.com.au/news/people/mirren-too-busy-to-dine-with-queen/2007/05/07/1178390187281.html

Arise Helen The Rehabilitated - you told those courtiers where to get off.

That’s my girl!

Honestly, I wish I could. I do ask them why they’re making these decisions. I point out the facts. But telling them flat out to dump their partners is not going to change their choices—it’s more likely to make them dump me and lose at least one reasonable, feminist voice in their lives. You know, the woman they can turn to when the fuckers dump them (because sadly that’s so often how these things end when he leaves her for that cute grad student/intern a few years down the road).

You’re right to be horrified by the choices being made by women of our generation (I’m 29). Our mothers (and grandmothers) fought really hard for our rights, or at least mine did. How are we thanking them? By calling the Pussycat Dolls empowerment and making “choices” like I see more and more of my friends making every day. It’s a tragedy, and sometimes it feels like we’re betraying what was fought for on our behalf.

I’m a heterosexual woman who’s chosen to have a male life partner. I agree that any guy who expected me to dump my career would swiftly get kicked to the curb. I found one who doesn’t expect that, and doesn’t resent me for being better educated than him, but they’re rare (and mine’s not perfect either—he is still a man). Many heterosexual women I’ve met make the terrible choice to be subjugated rather than to be alone. I don’t condone their decision, but I’m not going to condemn them or berate them. Better to stand as a friend, offer what comment I can, and be there to pick up the inevitable pieces.

“Another soon-to-be PhD I know is planning on quitting work once she and her engineer fiancé decide to have babies. She’s won national awards and is a great research mind, but, you know, his job is really important so she can’t ask him to give that up.”

Bird, if you haven’t done so already, please tell your friends to dump these fuckers. I beg you. It is OBSCENE that a Phd student who has won “national awards” and has a “great research mind” has a male partner who can’t be bothered to support her. Has anyone ever heard such a thing happen to a man with a “great research mind”. I bet the female partner of such a man would feel great swathes of guilt for forcing him to abandon something in which he has so much talent.

Sorry if I appear to be overreacting, but I am a heterosexual post-doc myself (mathematics) and I would be horrified if any partner of mine (I am currently single) would not support and encourage me to develop my talents. It would be obnoxious of him, to expect me to abandon my career to look after our babies, because for him to do so would be beneath him. I just got a really sick feeling in my stomach after reading about those cases.

So why are there so many women giving up their careers for their own volition, and making way for their menfolk to succeed. Of course I blame the Patriarchy, but in particular, I blame Femininity. I remarked in another post that it seemed to be that femininity is the “fetishization of being a loser and of being ripped off”. (Mearl expressed appreciation at this slogan - Thank you, Mearl!), well here is a classic example. You put all this effort into studying, learning, perfecting your skill, art, science, and then at the last minute you ditch it all for a man, who in many cases will have less talent than you. It’s more degrading than porn.

I’m 28, and a most awful realization is that these women are not of, say my mother’s generation, before or during Second Wave feminism, but of mine. There are already no doubt millions of women younger than me who are now no longer easily identifiable becuase they have ditched their identity and now parade about as
Mrs. Man_I_ Married. Even women who were educated in the most elite institutions are playing second fiddle for no other reason that they are women. (I completely failed to recognise and old friend of mine from Cambridge(in the UK) on Facebook because of this). I jsut want to say that lots of women are playing at being losers, when they don’t have to. Femininity sucks, and it sucks Patriarchy’s cock.

First: not quite sure you ARE being honest about the absolutist opinions. You’re not among those who have them, but they do exist here.

I’m being as honest as possible. I said “most”, meaning that of course there are some extremist view points here, as there are everywhere. Extreme, but I haven’t yet come across one poster that I recall as saying outright that there are absolutely NO decent men in the world.

Second: “the price the patriarchy demands” and the “toll, no matter what we do” are very righteous and damaging-sounding, and undeniably true in many instances, but kind of patriarchal themselves in their insistence that this always takes the form of submissive suffering, in the individual or collective basis.

How very much I’m enjoying your ploy of throwing my own debating style back at me, Octo - nice! However, I do think calling my choice of words “righteous” is getting a little on the insulting side, as it is tending towards commenting on what you are perceiving as my attitude rather than my actual arguments, don’t you think? I don’t really agree with your conclusion that my remarks are themselves patriarchal “in their insistence that this always takes the form of submissive suffering” - that seems rather a circular argument and you’re the one who has introduced the idea of “submissive suffering” - where does that enter mycomments at all?

I said:

“consider that many of us consider that it is equally as important to have THIS SPACE in which to be able to acknowledge freely just how shitty and powerful the forces ranged against us really are.”

Granted, absolutely. And as I said, will try to be more understanding of this going forward.

Cool.

Well, sure, if I were really the Stepford Cheerleader this implies. I think my statements have been a bit more nuanced than that. That’s like saying “consider that the fact that you’re an idiot may piss people off” – doesn’t leave me much to argue with, except I’m not one. I’ve never tried to silence anyone – it’s actually been the reverse.

I don’t consider you a stepford cheerleader - that’s a good one! - and I don’t think you’ve tried to silence anyone, or that anyone’s tried to silence you. Debate is the spice of life and I’m really enjoying this. No doubt the others are bored stiff!

But whether or not women SHOULD pursue it the same way, do you disagree that we should have the RIGHT to do so?

I’m not a big fan of capitalism myself so it depends on what you mean. In an ideal world I guess I’d prefer that we found a different idealogy that didn’t fuck with the environment and didn’t grind other people into the ground in order to gain wealth for a few select individuals or countries, but in this world we now inhabit, I guess I agree that women should be allowed to take advantage of our flawed system of capitalism in the same way that men do.

And my hat is off that you haven’t done that. It’s been fun, and educational, to hear what you have to say.

Ditto. It’s after midnight here so I’m off to bed.

First: not quite sure you ARE being honest about the absolutist opinions. You’re not among those who have them, but they do exist here.

Second: “the price the patriarchy demands” and the “toll, no matter what we do” are very righteous and damaging-sounding, and undeniably true in many instances, but kind of patriarchal themselves in their insistence that this always takes the form of submissive suffering, in the individual or collective basis.

“consider that many of us consider that it is equally as important to have THIS SPACE in which to be able to acknowledge freely just how shitty and powerful the forces ranged against us really are.”

Granted, absolutely. And as I said, will try to be more understanding of this going forward.

“Fourthly, consider the idea that the flipside of continually trying to get people to step back and be fair to the men and be upbeat about the women is actually very close to the restrictive pratices we encounter under the patriarchy where we have to sit down and shut up. And then you might get an idea of the hostility that you’ve encountered in this forum.”

Well, sure, if I were really the Stepford Cheerleader this implies. I think my statements have been a bit more nuanced than that. That’s like saying “consider that the fact that you’re an idiot may piss people off” – doesn’t leave me much to argue with, except I’m not one. I’ve never tried to silence anyone – it’s actually been the reverse.

“’ Some of us here don’t have much respect for capitalism. Fine. That’s not the point. The point is: we have the right to achieve material success the same way men do.’ This is a pretty broad claim and I think this is where you’re gonna run into some disagreement on this forum. For many the practice of capitalism is inextricably wound up with patriarchy and the idea that women should pursue success the same way is anathema to them.”

But whether or not women SHOULD pursue it the same way, do you disagree that we should have the RIGHT to do so?

And on the issue of SHOULD – do you disagree that women deserve the same comforts and freedom from material strain as men? And that capitalism is the prevailing system for getting there? My parents, who disdained capitalism, eventually got to a place where medical and life needs became too much for them. And it has fallen to corrupt, capitalist me to bail them out. The women’s collective isn’t going to step up to do that, and why should they. Don’t all women deserve the wherewithal to leave the shitty guy, to leave the shitty job? It would be peachy keen if we could end capitalism and world hunger, is there a better way of doing that in which we can still take care of our families?

“No problem. I’m a reasonable person. Unless I spit the dummy.”

And my hat is off that you haven’t done that. It’s been fun, and educational, to hear what you have to say.

Spit: well, if it comes across to so many that I’m defending men, I will take that seriously and work on clarifying in future. Because that is not my intention.

Cool. That’s all anyone can do and I appreciate your willingness to try. Too many people just get offended and go off in a huff, but communications important, IMO. Too important to keep on misunderstanding each other when we’re ostensibly on the same side!

When I jump in it’s typically where I do see stubborn statements about men that are harmful to WOMEN.

Then we are having a communication problem because that isn’t what’s coming across in your posts in general, at least not for me.

The statements I feel are harmful to women are those pronouncing an absolute inability for women in the patriarchy to advance in jobs or in relationships… And I think it’s important that women aspire to equality in every avenue, whether it’s public interest, or yes, capitalist endeavors. And not believe that there are impenetrable, absolute forces preventing our rise.

I see where you’re coming from here, Octo, but you are yourself guilty of absolutism in your response to what you see as absolutism. First of all, this list does not have a homogenous attitude towards ANYTHING. There are every flavour of opinion here, including yours, so you can’t label the prevailing climate with one broad brushstroke of opinion.

Secondly, most of the posters here don’t seem to hold absolutists opinions at all and are quite prepared to say that there are decent guys out there and that women can get ahead. The caveat they have is: AT WHAT PRICE? And is it worth the price the patriarchy demands? That’s the thornier ethical dilemma many stick on here. It’s like playing the patriarchal game and wearing feminine drag for the rewards it offers - how many of us are prepared compromise our principles and to what extent and for what reward? Each of us makes our own pact with the patriarchal devil and has to live with it but it takes it toll, no matter what we do.

Thirdly, although you may think it’s important to believe that the barriers before women are not “impenetrable, absolute forces preventing our rise”, please consider that many of us consider that it is equally as important to have THIS SPACE in which to be able to acknowledge freely just how shitty and powerful the forces ranged against us really are. That doesn’t mean we’ve given in or that we aren’t fighting, just that we want a place in which we can be HONEST.

Fourthly, consider the idea that the flipside of continually trying to get people to step back and be fair to the men and be upbeat about the women is actually very close to the restrictive pratices we encounter under the patriarchy where we have to sit down and shut up. And then you might get an idea of the hostility that you’ve encountered in this forum.

Despite popular opinion here, I am not suggesting the path to either is easy, that it’s been easy for me, or that I’m not still struggling on it. I’m not at some place of glib complacency.

I don’t think you are and I think you might have misunderstood the hub of the criticism if you think that “having it easy” has anything to do with it.

Some of us here don’t have much respect for capitalism. Fine. That’s not the point. The point is: we have the right to achieve material success the same way men do.

This is a pretty broad claim and I think this is where you’re gonna run into some disagreement on this forum. For many the practice of capitalism is inextricably ound up with patriarchy and the idea that women should pursue success the same way is anathema to them. Y’all may just have to agree to differ on that. I’m all for material success for women but again, at what price, for the individual, for society and for feminism?

Another issue entirely is whether women in high levels in the workplace will change things. I happen to think so. Others here don’t. But that really doesn’t affect the premise that we have the right to want to be there, and to encourage other women in that direction. That’s the right I care about.

Basically this all comes down to a disagreement between those who think women in high places in the economic patriarchal system will help the situation of women generally and those who don’t. So discuss it. If people don’t agree with you, they don’t agree with you. What’s the problem? You talk of “rights” but I don’t see anyone denying anybody their right to express an opinion.

I agree that the tension you mention does stem from moderate vs radical, to some degree. But I’m still not sure we’re on the same page about exactly where the areas of tension are, exactly.

So where do you think it’s coming from exactly?

I do, greatly, appreciate your willingness to have a reasoned dialogue with me about it. It means a lot.

No problem. I’m a reasonable person. Unless I spit the dummy.