This reminded me of a jewel from my mother after she overheard us talking about our ideal future husbands at 10 or 11. She poked her head into the room and said, “become the man you want to marry”. It was like a light switched on in our little 10 year old brains.

If something as fundamentally obvious as this needs to be explained, then one cannot hope to confer anything approaching understanding unto ignorant, defensive persons. I find that scathing diatribes thinly veiled as friendly informational musings (smile whist talking) is equally ineffective, but infinitely more fun.

I’m the only feminist male I know, and I can’t help but recognise that whilst I’m on aforementioned diatribes, other men I’m talking to have expressions on their faces which belie the fact that they’re wondering whether I’m taking the piss and/or gay; not a whole lot of introspection resulting from what I’m saying going on… not ever likely to be unless education system is changed and things like philosophy and ethics are taught in depth in schools as part of a curriculum that teaches children to think for themselves. Trying to change women’s, let alone men’s, delusional patriarchal memes is, for the most part, entirely futile. Children, however, are malleable little things…

I think the fact that it is such a cliche may have more to do with grown men remembering their own behavior as 15-year-old boys, virtually none of whom is capable of going more than a minute without a sexual desire. They recall their own obsessive behavior at that age and are well aware of how manipulative and amoral they can be. That they laugh about it now may mean they haven’t completely grown out of it. (Hell, many never grow out of it and some cling to it like they think that if they never mature they’ll never grow old. Which is crazy. Anybody, regardless of gender, who clings to adolescence that far into adulthood is a pathetic fool.)

When you hear it, listen to the laughter closely and watch their faces. Usually there is a distinct air of sadness about it all. Their daughters are growing up and are going to become adults in a harsh and dangerous world. They won’t be able to protect them any more, which is a sad realization for any parent. (FSM knows my mother is still wishing she could protect me from the mean ol’ world, and I’m a 40 year old white man. WTF do I need protection from?)

The patriarchy will only permit them to express their love through possession. It will also only permit them to express to their friends their fear for their daughter’s safety and their sadness at their child’s growing up with a crude joke. Talking about fear, or any other strongly felt emotion other than anger, isn’t permitted except in the form of jokes. The other men understand and sympathize, but since understanding and sympathy aren’t really allowed either, they express it by sharing the joke.

On the other hand, sometimes the joke is told by another man about someone else’s daughter. That can get really iffy- sometimes it’s a clumsy attempt to complement the proud dad on raising a fine kid, but other times it comes across as an expression of desire for a prepubescent, which is creepy as hell. How the others, especially the father, react is an indicator of the underlying emotional context going on.

Sometimes it’s the father himself giving that creepy impression. That’s when I want to smack them with a large hammer. And yes, the last time I encountered that I called him on it. (“Dude, it sounds like you think your 12 year old is hot.” Shocked denial, followed by a group “ew!” “naw, that’s not what he meant” etc.)

Anyway, context is everything with that one. It can be a nasty expression of misogyny or incestuous desire, or it can be an expression of love and sympathy, or the closest that they are permitted to come in a society in which men, among other men, may not do so except jokingly.

Just my opinion, worth every penny you paid. Back to lurking now. Great thread, by the way.

So what about the underwear?

I completely disagree with your analysis of the protective father of the pubescent daughter. I HATE when I hear men talking amongst themselves about their daughters, i.e., “when she hits 15, I’m getting a shotgun”. Usually this prompts manly laughter. Every time I hear that, I wonder what the shotgun wielding father wants to do to other people’s 15 year old daughters.

My father never gave me this “they just want one thing” lecture. He gave me this: if, one day, I should decide to marry and have children, that is fine, but “make sure you can take care of yourself first”.

My father didn’t instill me with fear, he just told me to be self sufficient.