«

»

May 05 2007

Vile

All things are subject to interpretation; whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. — that putz Nietzsche

It is with curled lip and bloodshot eye that I anticipate a total lack of surprise at the news that last month a 17-year-old Iraqi girl was stoned to death in an “honor killing” — words I cannot type without overloading my Oxymoronitron. I expect abhorrence, yes. Disgust, yes. A crushing sense of the futility of it all, yes. Surprise, no.

Because this shit never goes away, it will surprise no one that this girl’s murder began by eight men dragging her from her house into the street, and ended after they had hurled rocks at her for half an hour. Nobody will raise much of an eyebrow when it is revealed that a mob of people watched this murder, and that none of them felt sufficiently moved by notions of a higher moral purpose to intervene. There is nothing particularly out of the ordinary, even, in that more than one of the frenzied spectators possessed such sangfroid as to record the murder with a cellphone video camera and post it on the internet, where it is causing a mild sensation; after all, this is nothing that American soldiers haven’t done, and done famously.

I post the video here, not out of prurience, but because anyone who thinks men don’t hate you ought to see what happened to this teenage girl. They ought to hear the jeering of the mob of men who circled her like hyenas and tortured her to death. They ought to watch the flash of flip-phone videographers trying to capture the butchery for posterity. They ought to puke when confronted with the delusional, sociopathic depths to which any man can degenerate when indoctrinated, as all men are, by a culture of domination.

The Daily Mail and other reports title the story more or less like this: “Teenage girl was stoned to death for loving the wrong boy.” Implying that the girl, however much sympathy we have for her, nevertheless brought the savagery on herself.

Whereas it would be much more accurate to say “Mob of men tortured fellow human to death to engorge patriarchal godbag delusions.”

184 comments

14 pings

  1. Laiane

    Murdered for “loving the wrong boy”? Oh, dear god, that is just too sick for me to wrap my head around.

  2. Aaron Boyden

    I guess I’m numb from knowing things like this happen all the time, though that was certainly not a pleasant video. I do tend to bring up Iraq’s women when some idiot says that the war at least got rid of Hussein (though it’s a rare event these days in my circles for anyone to say anything remotely favorable about the war). However, I would be inclined to read the Daily Mail as trying to make the girl more sympathetic, rather than as blaming her. Calling her a “fellow human” does not do as much to make her seem like a fellow human as calling attention to her human proclivities, such as being in love, and for that matter being in love with the “wrong” person in some sense; experiences we have all had in some form or another. So while I’m sure the Daily Mail is guilty of all sorts of blameworthy patriarchal activities, I’m not sure this is one of the things for which they should be blamed.

    Oh, and “honor killing” may be a perfectly appropriate name. The notion of “honor” is surely intimately bound up with the patriarchy, and perhaps we should be criticizing the notion that anyone thinks honor is a good thing, rather than criticizing those who use honor to refer to bad things, since honor mostly refers to bad things.

  3. Pinko Punko

    They will never understand that the stated reason is never the real reason and that constructions like “girl murdered because of X” that involve culturally approved traditions are really “girl murdered because of Y having nothing to do with girl.”

    I just can’t watch the video.

  4. Shakes

    I’d be interested to see what (if anything) becomes of the boyfriend.

  5. kate

    I watched the video and intend to further it along, if I can, to the war apologists that I know. Of course, it will also tend to fuel the fires of racism and bigotry, which truly solve absolutely nothing. The damned of our various human cultures gain no benefit when bigotry supposedly serves as justice, as violence only begets and apologizes nothing more than violence.

    Thus Nietzsche’s very correct assessment.

  6. Gender Blank

    The Daily Mail title is plenty blameworthy. Notice that there is no reference at all to the perpetrators of the stoning. Instead it reads like the girl went and got herself stoned to death. Stupid girl.

  7. dryxi

    This is going to be one of those “Duh!” moments, but that girl is dead. Anything she may have done, or may not have done is irrelevant. She had a consciousness, had fear, had pain, but now she has nothing. I may bungle my words here, and not truly convey my feelings and meanings. I knew I did not want to watch that video, but seeing her limp body, bloody face, stripped waist really brought reality home to me. Yes, I understand people die in atrocious ways all over the world, but to see a specific victim’s face forces me to identify with her in an intensely emotional and personal way. It is truly horrific, and I don’t possess the words to describe how I feel. And this is reality for women all over the globe. I will be rethinking my knee-jerk “well get yourself out of that situation” reaction I callously employ when reading these accounts.

  8. dryxi

    Watching that man grab the girl’s body and drag it off leaves me feeling violently ill.

  9. jessant

    I watched it. I can’t imagine what drives men to these acts. I wonder if they just loath themselves so much that they turn it on women…They loath their desires. I had to sit through this godbag open mic night at work one day, and there was this guy singing about women and how when he opened the door he was bombarded by all these sexah sexah women, who were punishing him by dressing scantily and that it was somehow their fault he was lusting after them. So maybe I can imagine…but it’s still pathetic. These men are pathetic but most men are. Right now I’m just disillusioned with the whole lot of them. Because even the best men I know still don’t seem to get it. Pathetic.

  10. Rebecca

    The Daily Mail content is plenty blameworthy, too. Consider the passive voice the journalist used in the lead paragraph:

    “A 17-year-old girl has been stoned to death in Iraq because she loved a teenage boy of the wrong religion.”

    A more accurate lead would be, “A mob of 8 or 9 men stoned to death a 17-year-old girl in Iraq, because the men claimed to object to her love of a teenage boy who believes in a different religion.”

    Further down, there’s more telling use of the passive voice:

    “It is feared her death has already triggered a retaliatory attack. Last week 23 Yezidi workmen were forced off a bus travelling from Mosulto Bashika by a group of Sunni gunmen and summarily shot dead.”

    So, “it is feared”? Feared by whom?

    Again, the journalist makes it sound like the stupid girl, who stupidly got herself, has in death killed stupidly caused in the summarily unfair shooting of innocent Yezidi workmen.

    Girls. They are a menace to society, you know.

  11. H

    I admit, the first thing I thought when the camera pulled back to display her half-naked young body was, “Right, I wonder how many men are going to jerk off to this tonight?” Depressing.

    The next time someone tries to argue that atheists are immoral and religion makes you a better, more moral or ethical person, I’m going to forward them this video. There’s your religion, right there – a woman murdered by a hysterical mob for thinking she had the right to behave like a human being. There’s no better tool on this planet for inciting violence, murder and genocide like a ‘holy’ texts.

  12. lawbitch

    Aaron, you are numb. Your detachment speaks volumes.

    I can’t watch this video, because it might trigger PTSD symptoms. For those of us women who have previously been abused, this is not merely an academic discussion.

  13. Ginger Mayerson

    God. Well, I watched it, blogged it and managed to keep my lunch down. I just don’t have any words for this.

  14. nightgigjo

    Aaron quote: “I guess I’m numb from knowing things like this happen all the time, though that was certainly not a pleasant video” [emphasis mine].

    You KNOW that women are stoned to death for daring to make decisions on their own ALL THE TIME? Then my question for you is: Why the fuck aren’t you doing something about it?
    .
    That was, numb or not, an incredibly callous statement on your part. It does, indeed, speak volumes.

    So while I’m sure the Daily Mail is guilty of all sorts of blameworthy patriarchal activities, I’m not sure this is one of the things for which they should be blamed.

    1) The headline. That’s been covered.
    2) Calling her a ‘fellow human’ == denying the patriarchy exists, which
    3) –> Denies that grown men stoning a 17-year-old female had anything to do with her being female.
    .
    Blameworthy, all.

    I can’t watch this video, because it might trigger PTSD symptoms. For those of us women who have previously been abused, this is not merely an academic discussion.

    And thank you, lawbitch. I was debating whether or not to watch the actual video, but the very blurry pictures from the Daily Mail article were enough to trigger me, enough that I stopped looking. Watching this woman being dragged from her home and killed in this way would have have sent me into very dark places.
    .
    I, of course, BTP.

  15. kcb

    I think the spamulator are my earlier comment. This is incredibly revolting, and it instantly reminded me of the souvenir photos white folks used to take at lynchings. The technology for recording the atrocities is better today, but the behavior of the patriarchy is as bankrupt as ever.

    H, I had the same thought you did. If the girl weren’t dead I’d assume it was a gang-rape video.

  16. thebewilderness

    I won’t watch it. Thinking about it caused a connection to form in my mind. The patriarchy is jealous of men’s ability to bring death. Death trumps life. Killing and fantasizing about killing makes them feel godlike. No wonder they don’t want women in the military to usurp their power. No wonder they don’t want women to be able to abort, it usurps their power. They are jealous of the only power they have, to kill.

  17. Artemis

    I could barely take in the headline when it came across my newsfeed yesterday. I noted this latest assault on womankind, put on my armor to protect myself from being triggered and falling into a pit of black dispair, and shuffled along as usual knowing what we all know in our hearts. Men the world over – men sitting next to us in class, at work, on the bus – would do the same to us under just slightly different circumstances.

    When I saw that Twisty had posted about it my reaction was, “oh, no” and a sickening sense of dread pulled at me. But I watched as much of the video as I could and reminded myself of the reality of this girl’s life and death. I owe her that. I owe all women that. And that is a personal decision – not a global call for everyone to do the same. It is triggering and if you need to protect yourself from that, you have the absolute right to do so.

    Thinking all that, I asked: Does it serve any purpose for Twisty to post that video knowing how triggering it is, knowing how sickening and horrifying it is, knowing that it’s just one more link in a long, long chain of degradation. And I sat with that.

    And I remembered: We must have the people who shout in public. We must have those who sound the alarm in the ways that are the most in-your-face. I have been that person at times and been cut off at the knees. Twisty reminds yet again: we have to sustain this yell as long and as loud as it takes to save women’s lives.

  18. slythwolf

    I can’t even contemplate watching this. I don’t want to run the risk of desensitizing myself to the horror of it.

    And reading the article’s title has given me the thought that often “any man but me” or “any man I didn’t choose for you” is “the wrong man”. And then I thought, can it really be wrong to love someone? IBTP.

  19. lawbitch

    Lest we be lulled into thinking that violence against women only happens far away, I quietly remind everyone that violence against women exists here. Unfortunately, some of the regulars on this blog have been victims of abuse/violence, myself included.

    Survivors have not only a right but a duty to protect themselves against triggering material. Instead of being denial of the existence of violence, it’s evidence of the devastating effects of surviving abuse.

    With hugs to all those who struggle with such personal experiences and with hope for healing!

  20. MedeaOnCrack

    The men who stoned her will all have been male relatives, probably led by her brothers. Today was the birthday of one of my brothers. I couldn’t wish him happy birthday on the phone, I had to e-mail. It was terse, because. I’m not Iraqi. I survived past 17. He didn’t use stones. And I’m alive.

  21. Medbh

    My stomach and psyche are not strong enough to actually watch the video, but Twisty your coverage of her brutal murder helps to rescue her life and worth, and casts the blamer’s gimlet-eyed view on the ever present misogyny at work in the world.

    Now let one freaking neocon iterate the bullshit line that the U.S. military is there to protect women.

  22. edith

    And I’m just never going to understand why people think women’s rights is an outdated agenda.

  23. kcb

    Now let one freaking neocon iterate the bullshit line that the U.S. military is there to protect women.

    For my post I pulled a quote from neocon Reuel Marc Gerecht from August 2005. It’s with respect to voting rights and the then-impending Iraqi constitution, but it speaks volumes about the priority placed on Iraqi women:

    “I mean, women’s social rights are not critical to the evolution of democracy. We hope they’re there. I think they will be there. But I think we need to put this into perspective.”

    I have to go wind down now or I’ll never get to sleep tonight.

  24. Lara

    H claims that this was caused by religion. It’s not. People use science to slowly kill women, especially women of color, too (think of the encouraged and even enforced sterilization of women of color here in the U.S….). This all has to do with patriarchy, with misogyny. And misogyny comes in very many forms.
    Anyway, I certainly cannot even try to watch the video, it’s making me excessively depressed and disturbed just thinking about it.
    And it’s so true that, believe it or not, there are some guys out there using this video to wank off too…..
    saying it here makes even me feel wretched…

  25. yankee transplant

    IBTFP

  26. H

    H claims that this was caused by religion … This all has to do with patriarchy, with misogyny.

    Religion is and always has been the chief and most successful form of promoting and entrenching patriachy.

    Science is not an institution. It is merely a method. What people do with the information gained from science – nuclear bombs, human rights- infringments in medicine, the politics of Big Pharm – may be a problem. Science in and of itself is not. Contrast this with religion, which seeks to cling onto old, often provably wrong ideas about everything from astrophysics to gender roles to how one should dress oneself and what one should do with one’s uterus. Then threatens to kill, maim or disnfranchaise one if one should disagree.

    Science as a method teaches one to question everything. Religion obliges one to accept outstandingly wrongheaded ideas – particularly misogyny – without question, or suffer the consequences.

  27. kanea

    did anyone else cry after they saw the video? I did. I don’t usually cry. I’m well aware of the horrors done to women around the world and here. I thought I was pretty numb. I guess I’m not as numb as I thought. still I’m glad twisty posted it and I’m glad I watched it. because if I didn’t watch it I’d kick my self for turning a blind eye to it. and if people like twisty don’t shout it out deaths like these will be forgotten and other people who would willingly turn away from it so they don’t have to cope with how horrible the world can be, would turn away. its horrible but the world needs to see what’s horrible or it can never get better.
    I also noticed in the video several men’s hands taking pictures and recording vidoes. were these men journilists? or passers by thinking ‘crap! a terrible crime I should get pictures to show the police!’ sadly I think not. I can feel my dinner rising in my throat as think of what they really want the video for.

  28. LMYC

    I can feel my dinner rising in my throat as think of what they really want the video for.

    Taking home and making their own daughters watch it while they glare at them and tell them THIS IS WHAT AWAITS YOU IF YOU DO ANYTHING I DISAPPROVE OF IN ANY WAY, EVER. The “nice guy” fathers will do it “for their own good.” Their mothers will say nothing, knowing that the same will be meted out to them if they so much as open their mouths.

  29. Janet

    I am shaking this makes me so mad. I am fucking shaking.

  30. Bruce/Crablaw

    For the fact that I watched this snuff film, this lynching in ice-cold blood, with no emotional reaction, I reproach myself.

    And blame the patriarchy.

    A better person whose sense of injustice had been less blunted over the years would have recoiled in horror and emotional outrage at seeing this mob murder.

  31. Sean

    To Lara and H:

    I think both views can be reconciled. William James puts best the argument that science is also a religion–whether it’s a “good” or “bad” religion is an entirely different matter–in “The Varieties of Religious Experience.” He’s also remarkable (in the sense that men writing don’t often do this) for actually taking serious the emotions of both male and female religious figures.

  32. KMTberry

    thebewilderness May 5th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
    I won’t watch it. Thinking about it caused a connection to form in my mind. The patriarchy is jealous of men’s ability to bring death. Death trumps life. Killing and fantasizing about killing makes them feel godlike. No wonder they don’t want women in the military to usurp their power. No wonder they don’t want women to be able to abort, it usurps their power. They are jealous of the only power they have, to kill.

    WOW. THE Bewildreness: that is one of the most profound insights into what links ALL these “issues” (abortion, women in the military, etc) I have read anywhere. I always have wondered. “If they are so upset about abortion, then why aren’t they upset about X?” (fill in the blank: innocent black men being executed by the state, the carnage of war, cancer-causing pollution). Now I can see that they are specifically upset about abortion because abortion is something that WOMEN DO.

    Nightgigjo: I think you may be taking out your rage against the Patriarchy on Aaron. Why do you assume she doesn’t “fucking DO something about it?” DO you actually really know exactly what Aaron may or may not do to further the cause of Feminism?

    I think what made you angry is that Aaron is of a detached frame of mind about such atrocities. Clue: Aaron is PROBABLY older than you. When you have been seeing this shit all your adult life, you kind of have to take a step back emotionally or be destroyed.

    Watching the video and getting all upset is not actually DOING anything (I mean other than getting upset). Don’t assume that people who are able to maintain some distance are unfeeling. Such people often end up doing the lion’s share of the work, while others are effectively crippled by their own compassion.

  33. H

    No, science is not a religion. It has nothing in common with the institution of religion whatsoever. Do I have to get the whiteboard out and make a fucking chart?

    Again, science is a method as opposed to a belief system. It is method based upon rigorous testing and actual cold, hard proof as opposed to rank superstition, wish-fulfillment fantasies and a penchant for clinging to obsolete social mores.

    Religious folks often like to bleat defensively about science being a religion (much as they like to try to brand atheism as a ‘belief system’ when it is precisely the opposite, a LACK of belief) but that is simply because for the most part, they’re half-educated twits who haven’t the foggiest clue what science actually is and what it isn’t.

  34. kanea

    “Taking home and making their own daughters watch it while they glare at them and tell them THIS IS WHAT AWAITS YOU IF YOU DO ANYTHING I DISAPPROVE OF IN ANY WAY, EVER. The “nice guy” fathers will do it “for their own good.” Their mothers will say nothing, knowing that the same will be meted out to them if they so much as open their mouths.”

    yes you are probably right. it still makes me sick…
    on another note. someone once told me ‘honor’ killings are rare….compare with other crimes. one is more likely to be rape, mugged or murdered for other reason. (still an atrocity is an atrocity weather it happens once or 100 times) they also said it happened less in place like egypt, iraq, turkey and more in places like saudi arabia, afganistan, ect. so what I’m wondering is if the rate has gone up in iraq since american invade and gave iraq ‘freedom’

  35. Rosie

    Oh my god. I’m shaking and crying. And to think that outside my sheltered bubble, shit like that happens to women every second.

    I am a medic who sees industrial accidents and some pretty gruesome stuff. But I serve as a medic in a peacetime civilian setting. I see injuries from bar fights, stabbings, and industrial machinery, but I haven’t ever had to witness torture. I have had corpse duty (putting them in the body bags and locked coffin for transport to anchorage for the medical examiner) and I’ve had to suction dudes’ airways after fights so that they don’t choke on their own blood… but I’ve never had to deal with a woman who’s been victimized.

    I suspect that I will have a very hard time dealing with it, when that day comes when I’m faced with trying to help a female victim of violence. I’m actually very surprised that I haven’t had to do that yet, because Alaska has one of the highest rates of rape, sexual assault, and domestic violence. It makes me sick. Those evil men will have to pay for their crimes. It likely will not come in a court here on earth, but that girl’s death will be avenged.

  36. Belle O'Cosity

    I have not been able to watch this. Earlier today I found it on another blog and started to download it. My connection is slow so it was in the background as I was looking at posts about it. I read reactions on this “political” blog. I read posts from what can only assume are men, asking what was the context, how will this effect the administration, etc. and then the sound kicked in. I heard the men yelling in a language I don’t know. But I knew the tone, I knew the feeling behind the words. I couldn’t look. I felt the vomit rise as I read the “reasonable” responses from these men whose politics I generally share. They did not express horror or acknowledge the gender issue at all. I listened to the voices and read the words and it was horrible. The people I would like to think of as allies don’t get it at all. Reading their responses while listening to her death was, I don’t know how to say. I know I am not expressing this as well as I want, but it was truly horrifying in so many ways. Count me in with the religion is fucked up vote. I am done with cultural relativism, that has got to be the most evil bit of thinking ever concocted.

  37. Gertrude Strine

    So there are multiple records of the crime. The killers can be identified.
    So you can add your signature to the petition to have the criminals prosecuted.
    After all, the US brought democracy to Iraq, which implies openness of process and justice for all Iraq, including Kurdistan.

    http://www.petitiononline.com/kurdish/petition.html

  38. therealUK

    Some thoughts: the Daily Mail is a nasty racist, misogynist and reactionary rag. In case anyone doesn’t know that, bear that in mind when reading it.

    Their articles follow a rough rule of: only report vile deeds when committed by slags, feminists or dodgy foreigners.

    Of course even the “liberals” routinely ignore systemic and
    institutional misogyny both at home and abroad, excusing vile men as occasional, one-off, usually not connected to any wider culture problems (unless it seems that those cultural problems can be laid at the feet of patriarchs and misogynists considered to be less deserving of sympathy).

    The upshot in either case tends to be that men, and the actual patriachal systems they continue to engage with, are not held responsible for their vile behaviour towards women and children.

    Also, just scanning the Daily Mail page, look in the right-hand side column. A series of stories about celebrity women and their “silly little girl” behaviour (including how Paula Radcliffe has turned from marathon runner into a proper real woman by having a baby), then men being manly by being involved in the serious stuff of men’s sport and business.

  39. therealUK

    PS I’m in the didn’t watch the video camp. Don’t need to. Experience and imagination are more than enough to know just how disgusting this sort of thing is.

  40. Candice Morgan

    Kanea: did anyone else cry after they saw the video?

    Yes. I cried. I cried and I couldn’t stop and if I wasn’t already disillusioned with the world (at 22), then I am past disillusioned now.

    KMTberry: Watching the video and getting all upset is not actually DOING anything (I mean other than getting upset). Don’t assume that people who are able to maintain some distance are unfeeling. Such people often end up doing the lion’s share of the work, while others are effectively crippled by their own compassion.

    Call me a bleeding heart. I’d rather a bleeding heart than no heart at all. If anything, this video has spurned my burning desire to ACT ACT ACT from the blazing bonfire it already was into a mushroom-cloud inferno.

    I will be forwarding this blogpost of Twisty’s to everyone I know with the following introduction:

    Watch this. If you can still tell me that feminism has happened, that it’s been and gone, then you do not value life in any way, shape or form.
    (Yet this still does not express my thoughts sufficiently).

    IBTFP–we all should!

  41. Candice Morgan

    How can the world be so utterly different, so completely unfeeling and cold when, growing up, my view of the world was so sunny?

    It fucking pisses me off that I am only now able to think clearly, to think for myself and to actually understand how fucked up this is. It is not worth protecting innocence, when that protection is what makes innocence so vulnerable. I’d rather know than not.

    Why is it so hard for people to feel any shred of anything about this horrific video? Why is it okay to blame her of her own torturous end? To not WANT to think of her as HUMAN!!

    Because HUMAN=MAN. Because WOMAN=NOTHING.

    Is it so hard to see? Is it? Because it’s fucking clear to me.

  42. Galloise Blonde

    I think that my site at stophonourkillings.com was the first to print news on this on English: I’ve been getting lots of information from Kurdish sources on this. Thanks to Gertrude Strine above for sharing my friend Houzan’s petition. There were demonstrations about this in Arbil last week and there will be more including here in the UK. As for the boyfriend, as someone above asked, he’s only 17 years old himself and has been put in prison for his own protection. The father did not approve this murder and has been carrying out interviews to brag about his late daughter’s unruptured hymen. Yezidis are fleeing mixed cities to the safety of their enclaves as Islamist groups try to expliot Du’a's AFAIK entirely fictional conversion to Islam. I have myself not just this video, but seven different versions. And I feel dead inside.

  43. Galloise Blonde

    In fact as I was posting this I was just told there is a demonstration for Du’a in Kirkuk right now.

  44. Candice Morgan

    SIGN THE PETITION!!!

  45. Professor Fifi

    Can’t speak, only cry. (again and again and again)

  46. LouisaMayAlcott

    Candice Morgan,

    It’s clear to me. It’s been clear to me since before I started kindergarten. All my life, I have been grieving.

  47. delphyne

    If I was murdered, I wouldn’t want a whole lot of people who I didn’t know watching me be killed again on video. Whoever took that video probably approved of what was being done, or at the very least didn’t try to help the girl being KILLED by those men.

    Do people really need to watch this to understand the horror of what they did to her? Isn’t a description of her being stoned to death for half an hour enough. Can you imagine the agony of that? I don’t think it’s got anything to do with PTSD (although that obviously figures for some people), it’s about basic humanity and the respect for the suffering of another human being. Once you become a viewer at some level you detach yourself from that girl and what she experienced.

  48. delphyne

    I’ll take that back if whoever took the video filmed the murderers and what they were doing, but my bets are that he focused on the girl and her torture and death. He did that because he and the men that did that get off on this.

  49. Galloise Blonde

    Delphyne, it wasn’t a single person filming this: it was many, they are all pushing each other out of the way to get better shots. And the reason in my opinion is that the footage formed souvenirs and warnings to other women. This clip is just one of many: as I say I have seen seven myself. Clearly visible in some are the participation of police men and a young boy as spectators. It was important for us as activists for women’s rights to see these. I have been told that the videos have been released on the internet by Islamist groups who wanted to benefit, and who paid the participants for their footage (warning, this is a rumour).

    However, this footage has sparked outrage on a scale not yet seen in Kurdistan: there have been 2 demos in Arbil, one in Kirkuk, a meeting in Sulemaniya in the next few days, meetings of Iraqi and Kurdish women’s rights groups in London planned for this week. “Honour” killings happen a lot amongst Kurds and the particular gruesomeness of this, and how public it has become may hopefully be a catalyst for activism and change. Remember that long before this piece of video came onto the Anglophone web it was bluetoothing its way across the mobile phones of Kurdistan, leaving a wave of revulsion in its wake.

    It’s probable that Du’a didn’t want her death to be seen by millions. But it has. It’s possible she wouldn’t have wanted marches and meetings in her name. But they are happening. There’s a chance that she wouldn’t have wanted her name to become a byword for the brutality of “honour”; a rallying cry for Kurdish and Middle Eastern women. But it could be.

    I don’t agree it is necessarily desensitising to view these films: my Kurdish colleagues have also seen them, and for them it was much harder than it was for me. They cried, vomited, had nightmares. This sort of murder is outside my experience, I am distanced from it, but they aren’t. Many of them have first-hand experience of “honour” as it affects themselves and the lives of their contemporaries.

  50. delphyne

    I’m sorry but I just don’t buy the idea that you need to watch the video in order to be outraged by what was done to this girl. The fact of what was done to her and that her murderers made souvenir videos is outrageous enough. And I’m not talking about people in Kurdistan, I’m talking about Westerners here on this thread who are already at a remove from the culture where honour killings are an issue. It reminds me a lot more of rubber-necking at an accident. If you can’t help look away, and say a prayer for the victims.

  51. Chaser

    While I am no expert, and while we seldom label them as “honor” killings, women and girls are murdered in the US remarkably often by male family members for similar justifications–a recent killing near me was a father who shot his daugher, her lover, then himself just as an example. I would therefore advise against believing somehow Westerners are removed from it. IOW, Twisty’s right: it’s universal, and it’s about hate, and you can dress it up in culture or religion if you want to, but it’s hate/evil/depravity.

  52. Gayle

    Candice Morgan,

    I’m signing the petition– and I’m sending it to everyone in my email book.

    I implore everyone else to do the same.

  53. roamaround

    kcb said: it instantly reminded me of the souvenir photos white folks used to take at lynchings.

    Yes, well, it was a lynching. Serves the same purpose of maintaining a repressive social system through terror. And just as the lynching of Emmett Till, another young and sympathetic victim, mobilized action and outrage against racism in the 1950′s, maybe the murder of Du’a Khalil Aswad can become a catalyst for change.

    Thanks to Galloise Blonde for the update on actions being taken by Kurdish women and others to protest her murder and stop these crimes. Honor killing is an especially virulent expression of the patriarchy, but it’s the same brutal animal we face everywhere.

  54. Galloise Blonde

    Hi Chaser. I’m hoping to write a piece on HK for an academic journal and it’s my position that the difference between this kind of crime, and the one you are talking about, comes from the extended kinship structures which don’t pertain in more individualistic cultures. Any woman risks abuse and murder by a (normally singular) male relative; but classic HK is performed by a conspiracy of male relatives acting in collusion.

  55. Loosely Twisted

    http://www.whas11.com/topstories/stories/042707whasmjdTopFrankLeeColvard.14978d05.html

    Twisty sometimes we all need a little good news. I thought you might be interested in what happen recently in one of our courts. Was just announced today.

    I gotta take the kids out of town today so I will comment on this post later.

  56. Candice Morgan

    delphyne: “Do people really need to watch this to understand the horror of what they did to her? Isn’t a description of her being stoned to death for half an hour enough. Can you imagine the agony of that?”

    Yes. People need to see this. Because we (society) cannot imagine it and hearing about it is not enough–in one ear and out the other, as they say. And yes, we should not HAVE to watch it in order to feel for her or to understand the atrocity her death and the circumstances of her death are. Unfortunately, the majority of the world is not as enlightened as we feminists are.

    I have never seen the likes of this video ever before–perhaps that’s actually the problem (I would, of course, rather that such attacks never happen, that we would never need a video of it in order to understand its horror, but utopia our world is not), perhaps what allows most of us to be ‘distanced’ from such disgusting inhumanity is that we are never exposed to it above words on a page or out of a tv anchor’s mouth. We, as a society, are desensitized to words, and increasingly to such images. But this is one image that needs to be seen. And, as is evidenced by Galloise Blonde, it is having the effect it should have. In an ideal world, everyone would be so outraged.

    I understand the women who’ve experienced abuse and trauma akin to this in their lives and the difficulty they find trying to watch or in choosing not to watch the video at all. I respect you. But for those of us fortunate enough not to have had such horrible experiences, its the closest I can come to comprehending the horror before it is a real experience. I wish it were not so.

    That her story is being told around the world and that people are acting in response to her death is a small victory for feminism–too often such stories are swept under the rug. This is patriarchy staring us in the face and I want to shine the reflection at the world to force people to acknowledge these daily, unnecessary atrocities.

    Excuse me, perhaps my heart doth bleed too much.

  57. delphyne

    “But for those of us fortunate enough not to have had such horrible experiences, its the closest I can come to comprehending the horror before it is a real experience.”

    Did you watch the Iraqi beheading videos using that same reasoning?

    It was a real experience, it was a real experience for that girl. Human beings have the capacity for imagination and empathy in order that we don’t need to gawk at someone’s suffering to understand it and know it’s terrible. Especially when the film of that suffering was made by one of her tormentors for entertainment and the joy of being able to relive the torture that was inflicted upon her. He probably thought it was *fun*.

    Twisty says in her initial comments that this video is for people who don’t believe that men hate women. I think most people here are well aware of that fact, so I’m still not seeing a good reason to watch it.

  58. roamaround

    Candice Morgan, I agree that violence against women is usually swept under the rug. It’s like the car accident we avert our eyes from, tragic but inevitable.

    This is because, under patriarchy, violence against women IS an inevitable part of the social order. That’s also why outrage at the perpetrator is replaced by a focus on the female victim’s transgression.

  59. lawbitch

    H, science is not a religion. Religion has been historically oppressed scientists. No one is disputing this.

    That said, scientific institutions (university departments, medical schools, research institutes, etc.) in our culture are created and run by men. These institutions have not magically escaped patriarchial mores. One who is well-informed knows that women are under-represented in academia (scientific and other fields). IBTP.

    Unfortunately, scientists cannot exist in the patriarchy without being effected by it, regardless of testing hypotheses.

  60. lawbitch

    Thanks for the respect, Candice. Support groups are filled with women telling their stories about how men (fathers, grandfathers, brothers, uncles and trusted family friends) have beaten and/or raped them. We go there to tell the stories too awful for others to hear. I grieve for the women who are killed so that they cannot tell their stories as survivors.

  61. vera

    I found and read this blog post, and watch the video, last night after coming home from dinner and a discussion of much the same thing: to watch or not to watch.

    I think people should watch. Women MUST begin to understand that misogyny is not just a curious imbalance that happens in the minds of a few psychopaths. It is so deeply inculcated in human culture that to those men standing around photographing and videotaping the torture and murder of that girl, it made perfect sense not just that she was brutally killed, but that they should have a videotape of it.

    My dinnertime discussion, with my husband, was about a film that I had just viewed. I’m sure others here have seen it: The Aristocrats. It’s a “documentary” about a particular joke supposedly known to all comedians but too shocking to be told, except in this film, apparently. The film presents dozens of comedians, including well-known men like George Carlin, Bill Maher, Jason Alexander, and many more. There are also a few women, including Whoopie Goldberg and Sarah Silverman.

    In truth, what the comedians perform is not a joke; it is an excuse to allow the woman-hating filth that lives in their minds to pour out. The viewer is treated to stories of brutality and child-rape; then the punch line is delivered. The point–insofar as the film has a point–is that “transgressive humor” shows the dark side of the comedian’s mind.

    It’s not the film, though, that I wanted my husband to watch. I wanted him to see a little clip that’s in the DVD’s Extras section. The directors are interviewing one of the comedians (Gilbert Gottfried), whose version of the joke has to do with a large man sexually assaulting his small daughter until she bleeds. Off-camera, the interviewer chuckles, “that story made my cock so fucking hard!”

    The men who stood by videotaping the stoning and murder of a child have a message for us. It’s the same message we get from most male stand-up comics. Or from most entertainment, for that matter. The message is that women are worthless. It’s important to grasp that, and sometimes you have to look right in its hideous face to fully grasp it.

    That’s what I believe, anyway.

  62. nightgigjo

    KMTberry said:

    Nightgigjo: I think you may be taking out your rage against the Patriarchy on Aaron…

    I think what made you angry is that Aaron is of a detached frame of mind about such atrocities.

    This is true. In retrospect, I should have waited to respond until I was no longer that affected by the horror of what I’d just read. Aaron, if you’re still reading, I apologize for taking out my anger on you inappropriately.

    Clue: Aaron is PROBABLY older than you. When you have been seeing this shit all your adult life, you kind of have to take a step back emotionally or be destroyed.

    I can understand that. *ignores the old teenage impulses to get defensive about age and sits back to listen*

    Watching the video and getting all upset is not actually DOING anything (I mean other than getting upset).

    I think that had something to do with my anger, actually — the feeling of abject helplessness when faced with even the *idea* that this sort of thing happens within a system that supports and promotes the killing of women by their closest relatives because they dared to think for themselves.

    The terror that this feeling of helplessness invokes… well, that’s part of the dark place I mentioned earlier. Anger/rage is how it manifested itself this time.

    Don’t assume that people who are able to maintain some distance are unfeeling. Such people often end up doing the lion’s share of the work, while others are effectively crippled by their own compassion.

    I do have to remember that all people are people (read: individuals) and that resemblance to the patriarchy in my knee-jerk reactions != supporting the patriarchy.

    I’ve jumped to conclusions a time or two during my feminist education, but this is the first time I’ve done so publicly. Doubtless this will help me not do so in the future.

    Thank you for calling me out on my shit. I don’t like it, and it hurts, but it’s something I expect friends to do. Thank you for acting like a friend.

  63. RadFemHedonist

    “No, science is not a religion. It has nothing in common with the institution of religion whatsoever. Do I have to get the whiteboard out and make a fucking chart?

    Again, science is a method as opposed to a belief system. It is method based upon rigorous testing and actual cold, hard proof as opposed to rank superstition, wish-fulfillment fantasies and a penchant for clinging to obsolete social mores.

    Religious folks often like to bleat defensively about science being a religion (much as they like to try to brand atheism as a ‘belief system’ when it is precisely the opposite, a LACK of belief) but that is simply because for the most part, they’re half-educated twits who haven’t the foggiest clue what science actually is and what it isn’t.”

    Thankyou for that, much needed, though I agree that
    A) evo-psych is bullshit
    B) women’s are under-represented in the sciences and this is a problem.

    I am done with cultural relativism, that has got to be the most evil bit of thinking ever concocted.

    I totally agree with you, I don’t like the word evil, but that’s as close as you can get, as if someone can lose their basic humanity and self interest because of anything, this is one of many ways in which one can be racist and society will let you get away with it, you friggin well know that never having an orgasm or being forced into an unwanted pregnancy would horrify you, you know that stoning someone to death is despicable and it stabs at your conscience, why on earth are you defending it, you idiot…

  64. antonia

    delphyne I can understand your concerns why one should not watch the video, but some people really need to see this to get a clue on what’s going on. Imagination is one thing that works well for some people, but for others imagination might not work, people are different and some might rather run away from their imagination, because it is so horrid. Such videos force them to accept these

    things are true, that the patriarchy is really, really true.

    It helps that these things get visible. That the video is filmed by those guys for ‘entertaining purposes’ makes the whole thing even uglier and shows at the same time how advanced the decay is. I don’t have a real answer on how one ideally should deal with such videos, but if there is something won out of all this harrowing behaviour is that her story is made visible, the plain brutality of it and that no one of those who filmed it gave a shit. Because, like others say so often violence is made invisible and that makes it so very difficult to fight against it. And from such a visible video one cannot abstract, one cannot escape, it wants you to form an opinion on this, a reaction. It forces you to look and to accept that this shit is happening everyday, only, everyday we don’t see such a video, everyday we only read the little anouncement in the newspaper: “wife (45) killed by husband (46) after divorce.”

  65. Candice Morgan

    Delphyne.

    I agree with you. Utterly, actually. I apologize for my inarticulate post.

    What I did not make clear is exactly that, that the people who need to see this video are the ones that don’t believe that the partriarchy exists, that men don’t hate women.

    I let my personal outrage at seeing it colour my comments. That perhaps others would feel it as intensely. Sometimes an image can speak louder than words. (Again, I wish this were not so!)

    Yes her experience is real. That is why I am boiling with rage. If I could undo what happened to her, I would. But I can’t.

    IMHO, as a young woman living in today’s pornification of everything, it is my fellow young women who seem unable to comprehend their own oppression and who express their ‘empowerment’ through, as Ariel Levy so succinctly put it, becoming ‘female chauvanist pigs’; who don’t care about or understand the implications should Roe vs. Wade be overturned (how long would it take for the few rights we do have to be taken away in such a scenario), among many other things. But I digress.

    In simple terms, the video of her (does anyone know this girl’s name?) MURDER should not HAVE to be seen in order to spark empathy. I agree.

    And, in simple terms, the video is not useless. That’s all I wanted to say.

    Thanks for helping me clarify–language is a dangerous tool.

  66. Candice Morgan

    antonia, thank you for saying what I had difficulty expressing–that some people need to see things like this in order to believe them.

  67. ginmar

    Why do they call it an honor killing instead of a lynching? Dragged from her house by a mob of men and killed in the street? She was lynched.

  68. Galloise Blonde

    Her name was Du’a Khalel Aswad.

  69. rootlesscosmo

    I won’t watch the video but I’ve signed the petition and sent it on to 136 people. Thanks for publicizing this, Twisty. (Thanks also for “that putz Nietzsche,” a long-overdue commentary.)

  70. Candice Morgan

    Sorry Galliose Blonde, in my hasty reading and posting I failed to recall that you had already given us Du’a's name.

    But thank you all the same for posting it again.

  71. Feminist Avatar

    On the science V. Religion debate, I don’t think it is useful to make direct comparisons between religous belief and science. I think the reason that belief in science is often compared to religious belief is that so many people do not question what scientists say or produce.

    Science as a method is hugely problematic. It is based on creating theories to explain evidence. Those theories are not made up in the sense that they do offer explanations for real phenomenon but they shouldn’t be taken as absolute truth. Almost every scientific theory has a huge debate that surrounds it, but certain theories gain cultural dominance and become ‘true’. The general public are often not aware of the debates that surround these theories and do not question that ‘truth’. That is why for many people science is a form of religious belief.

    Look at some of the debates that have taken place on this very blog surrounding scientific theories. Some scientists investigate where people place their eyes when shown pornography… suddenly women are worse ogglers than men. The gut reaction from most us is to point as say ‘Oh BAD science’. Look at the nine-hundred ways that we can undermine that experiment. The truth is that pretty much every experiment you care to mention can be undermined in 900 different ways. Science is not a truth, it is a way of investigating the world and offering explanations for phenomena. Those explanations are never perfect and entirely open to corruption from the researcher and their preconceptions. Good science is science where the researcher acknowledges his or her bias and the problems with the experiment, not science without bias or problems.

    This is why it is so easy to find scientific theories that undermine women and their human rights, and until we as a society recognise that science is not truth, it is just a bunch of theories, science will be used to undermine feminists. IBTP.

  72. Candice Morgan

    And thanks for the link as well.

  73. Feminist Avatar

    I posted and suddenly felt very callous for having a debate about science v. religion on a blog entry dedicated to such a heinous act. I would like to add my absolute condemnation and disgust of such horrendous cruelty towards a fellow woman and human being.

    I would also say to Galloise Blonde that you are doing a great job in promoting this issue and thank you. I also think that you are right that honour killings are particular social evil related to a particular form of kinship network, but I also think that the root cause of such behaviour is actually incredibly similar to familial killings in Western society. It’s all about ownership of women, male frustration at their inability to fully possess their female relatives and an act of possession and power.

  74. A MALE...but I'm gay, so it's ok

    It doesn’t make it right, of course, but if she KNEW this could happen if she dated a guy from a different religion, she should have avoided that situation all-together by not dating him in the first place.

    The video I saw from the link provided above, was not the actual stoning, but filmed AFTER she was dead. The disgusting part was the fact that in addition to the person filming, you can see a bunch of other people, probably all men, filming and taking photos, also. D-I-G-U-S-T-I-N-G!

    I will NEVER understand how anyone could stone to death a family member whom they are supposed to love. To most of the world, dating someone of a different religion is nothing compared to the dishonorable actions of those men. What THEY did is dishonorable to me, not what she did.

    Bystanders don’t intervene because they would be killed, also…unfortunately. The security forces that were present should be disciplined, also. Not making any attempt to stop it is just as bad as participating.
    I realize different countries have different views and customs, but vigilante death, which is basically what it is, is still murder.

  75. LouisaMayAlcott

    Gay Male,

    She wouldn’t be the first 17-yr-old, male or female, to take horrendous risks with her own safety.

    We see this with a car full of wildly drunken teenage boys that veers off the road, and all the kids are killed.

    A lot of kids that age seem to think that they are immortal.

    In the case of this girl, she may have had no direct experience (knowing a victim) of “honour” killings. She likely found it hard to believe that a whole group of men would want to kill her, *and do so*, simply because of her feelings about another teenager.

    When I was her age, I had already survived years of sexual abuse by my father, but I had no clue, no clue at all, how much I was hated by the rest of the male world simply for being female. Much less did I imagine any of them killing me for any reason whatsoever.

    What a sickening tragedy. The pure hatred, the pure vengeance against an innocent child is what haunts me about this.

  76. ginmar

    And A MALE proves that having a dick means blaming the victim. Oh, I’m sorry, did I OFFEND you? Well, guess waht, dickwad? Blaming a dead girl for her own death is PRETTY FUCKING OFFENSIVE.

  77. lawbitch

    Dear A MALE, apparently being gay hasn’t separated you from your sense of male entitlement. You’ve just callously used the “she was asking for it” argument. This negates your credibility and the integrity remaining part of your post.

    Were all of us raped by our fathers/brothers/relatives were asking for it, too? Or, did you not bother to read those posts above?

  78. lawbitch

    Silly me, I calmly typed a logical response. Just for grins, I’m going to use ginmar’s approach:

    A MALE, you’re the patriarchy’s whipping boy for being gay, but that doesn’t stop you from shitting on the people on the next rung down the ladder–the women–does it??? Fuck you!

    *regains composure*

    I feel better now.

  79. thebewilderness

    A MALE,
    You’re not just wrong, you are dead wrong.
    In fact you are repeating patriarchial propaganda.
    Four times a day in this country a child is abused to death. This child was stoned to death. The idea that we should all choose submit, when the question is submit or die, is heinous.
    This is not the place for you. We are grieving, you are blaming the victim.

  80. TinaH

    Fucking murdering bastards. Filth. Vile doesn’t even begin to cover it, but there aren’t words awful enough. I hope that they all rot in the deepest hell my enraged imagination can come up with.

    IBTP.

  81. thebewilderness

    That should have been four children a day in the US.

    And another thing, A MALE, how can you possibly admit to being gay, and go around being gay, when you know perfectly well you could be killed for it? How can you not see what bs you are spouting.

  82. Octogalore

    “she should have avoided that situation all-together by not dating him in the first place.”

    That’s a disgusting way to begin your analysis.

    All of us who’ve been children, and some of us who have them, understand that being young is about, and should be about, experimenting. Most of our experiments lead to a sprain or a grounding. If you haven’t, and I am sure you haven’t, grown up female in a country where punishments for being female and experimenting are death, you have no ability to make any judgments whatsoever about what you, or anyone, would have done in this situation.

  83. jami

    i don’t think i can watch it. but a project for anyone interested would be screen grabs of all the men participating, standing around, and filming. then post them everywhere. they should be in prison.

  84. Hattie

    Makes me wonder whether the human race is worth preserving, especially the male portion. And especially anyone who would rationalize this hideous event. If it had been a bunch of rats, you would go eeew! rats! But of course rats don’t have cell phones, do they?

  85. StotheL

    Oh, how my heart aches. And aches and aches and aches for this girl and her family – it’s almost too much to bear. I just keep thinking “peace, salaam, shalom” (http://www.pathumphries.com/WE_BELIE.MP3).

    And I’ll try not to feed the troll, but Gay Dude needs to hush.

    IBTP.

  86. H

    A Male:

    I guess then that the other thousands of women killed for ‘honor’ because they were raped, because they tried to leave a man who beat them bloody, because they wanted a divorce, because they were emotionally and sexually abused by their husbands, because their families hated their western lifestyles, because they thought that living in a democratic western country meant they were entitled to full human rights under the law to choose their own partners and destinies, means they ‘should have known better’ too, right? RIGHT?

    I mean, when it comes to women, they should ‘know better’ than to try to live as a human being, right?

  87. Artemis

    Thank god a man strolled in to let us all know:
    - women bring violence on themselves (tsk, tsk)
    - the exact nature of the content of the video (he’s been studying carefully and is now an authority on it)
    - his version of exactly what Twisty already said (but now it has the full weight of male authority behind it)
    - how truly interesting this is vis a vis families and dishonor (let’s chat about something else other than the simple hatred of women on full display here)
    - exactly what is going on with bystanders and security forces, because, you know, he has a dick so that makes him an expert
    - what should happen from here (dick = expert redux)

    Go away fuckhead.

  88. BubbasNightmare

    Candice Morgan:
    “SIGN THE PETITION!!!”

    Yes! Please! But don’t forget to write a letter (a real letter) as well. We all know how easy it is to ignore electronic submissions.

    If 10,000 people sign an electronic petition, that might get a bit of attention. If 10,000 well-written, rational letters (that’s about 10 full mailbags) show up on someone’s desk, that WILL get loads of attention.

    Address(es)? C’mon. This is the Interweb Thingy.

  89. Mar Iguana

    I have signed the petition and will be sending a link to this IBTP post to everyone I know because, as Candice Morgan said, people do need to see this because patriarchy has done a superlative job of destroying the imagination of “men.” I believe they also need to read what the blamers here, who see the truth, have to say about this horror.

    There are, unfortunately, many, many women who absolutely should not watch it. They already know the violence, up close and personal and should not watch anything that would trigger their trauma, which seeing this footage would do big time.

    My dream is that this will be the “shot” seen ’round the world (forward the video and petition to everyone you can think of), the un-ignorable, in-your-face awakening of the deniers of the fact that men hate women. Also, this act illustrates perfectly the necessity of making misogyny THE numero uno focus for one and all, for no other atrocity will end until this root evil is eradicated. Those boys stoning this young woman understand only too well what is necessary to maintain the “purity” of their particular he-man woman-hater club.

    As a mother, I am haunted by the image of a mother, left to cower, powerless in her prison/house with her hands over her ears for thirty minutes, still able to hear the suffering of the child she had borne and nurtured for 17 years, tortured to death; forced to hear the hateful yelling and sick laughter spewed from the mouths of some mothers’ sons killing her child; knowing her own sons and family members led the way. Terrorism truly does begin at home. Why in hell do they continue to have children for pity sake? Oh, that’s right, forgot there for a sec: Because they have no choice.

    “The patriarchy is jealous of men’s ability to bring death. Death trumps life. Killing and fantasizing about killing makes them feel godlike. No wonder they don’t want women in the military to usurp their power. No wonder they don’t want women to be able to abort, it usurps their power. They are jealous of the only power they have, to kill.” bewilderness

    This is the pathetic truth of the matter. The tragic flaw in patriarchal “reasoning” is the inconvenient fact that death does not trump life. Life will continue, with or without human beings, despite the insanity of boys hell bent on destroying that which they cannot control.

    “He falls, in my opinion, into that classification of one who will always reoffend,” said John Heck. “Because he has a sexual interest in children.”

    This sentence in the article about that Louisville monster is chilling on so many levels, Loosely Twisted. While I’m thrilled to see an appropriate outcome for this patriarchy-produced mutant, it’s disheartening that his impotent quest for power over others via violence is still considered just one more, albeit unfortunate, sexual interest, merely a preference such as “gentlemen prefer blondes” or “I’m a leg man.” The patriarchy has so perverted boys’ sexuality by conflating it with violence that they don’t even know what sex is. It is no wonder the viagra is flying off the shelves.

    “I can feel my dinner rising in my throat as think of what they really want the video for.”

    Yes, kanea. It is knowing just how badly the boys have been twisted that keeps me from dealing with them in any way other than what it takes to get the signature on my paycheck, my car fixed, my groceries checked, etc. Other than that, I really don’t want to get any on me so I keep my distance.

  90. J

    “I think the reason that belief in science is often compared to religious belief is that so many people do not question what scientists say or produce.”

    Yeah, I was thinking that up-stream in the comments. Science is irrefutably governed by its own set of metaphysical pre-suppositions. Like I think you point out by the end of your comment, depending on how you tease them out, those presuppositions can be fairly patriarchal.

    For example, the unquestioned dichotomy between subject and object, scientist and object of inquiry, has its direct corollary in more conventional patriarchy, respectively with male and female. From an ecofeminist stand-point though, they probably converge to the point that they’re practically the same. Theodor Adorno makes a similar connection in his critique of Enlightenment rationality (in the 1940s, by the way) in the first chapter of “The Dialectic of Enlightenment.”

  91. Lollymonkeh

    A Male – Why the hell should she choose her lovers and friends around what a bunch of prehistoric arseholes think is acceptable?

    I am disgusted, dismayed, even hurt by what I have seen in this video.

  92. dryxi

    Candice Morgan:
    “IMHO, as a young woman living in today’s pornification of everything, it is my fellow young women who seem unable to comprehend their own oppression and who express their ‘empowerment’ through, as Ariel Levy so succinctly put it, becoming ‘female chauvanist pigs’; who don’t care about or understand the implications should Roe vs. Wade be overturned (how long would it take for the few rights we do have to be taken away in such a scenario), among many other things. But I digress.”

    I think the issue here is slightly more complicated. I am a 21 year old female who grew up watching very little TV, didn’t get a computer/the Internet until I was 14 – and my time on the computer was limited. My life revolved around my studies and the two sports I participated in. I took classes in school that allowed me to get the broadest experience of the rest of the world, and I didn’t play my first video game until I was 18. Raised by an underpaid chemist mother and a father who was a lazy slug and hasn’t had a job my entire life, I developed a liberal bias fairly early on. I definitely paid the price for my (undereducated) outspoken beliefs in feminism, and was amply rewarded with harassment, nearly total lack of close companions, lack on various degrees of intimacy with males, and ridicules from females who thought I was rocking the boat.

    The reason I am giving this mundane background information is because I needed to see that video to begin to fully understand. I’m not sure where I went wrong growing up, or what I could/should have done differently, but I nonetheless am a product of pornification. I have read countless written reports of abuse, both at home and abroad, and usually go out of my way to avoid graphics of such abuses, and yet, I am quite the ideal product of the patriarchy when it comes to making the connection between abuses perpetrated and the reality faced by the victims.

    This may disgust many, but I do not intend it to be offensive. As I mentioned in my first comment, I knew I did not want to watch this video, but ultimately I realized I didn’t truly understand the gravity of the situation merely from words. I had no idea what “stoning” actually meant – that sounds stupid: it is to kill another person by hurling rocks at them – but I couldn’t comprehend how/why the victim would allow herself to meet this fate. Couldn’t she run away? Couldn’t she dodge the stones? Couldn’t she throw them back? Obviously, none of these are real options, but in my naivete I had no idea what this meant.

    I wish it were not so, and it disturbs me to realize that there are probably other women like me – not women who would normally be considered “chauvanist pigs,” but who, like me, do not understand. I am not advocating people immerse themselves in this filth until they are completely desensitized, but I also believe that something is very wrong with my generation if we cannot identify with the pain, fear, and sorrow this woman undoubtedly felt.

  93. LilliEve

    Oh. My. Holy. Goddess.
    That was a horribly disgustingly grotesque video to watch. But I agree with much of the commentary here already; that watching the footage really brought home the reality of the situation to me. I had heard something very briefly in the news but had ignored it, because I didn’t want to know. Knowledge is power, I hope. I am glad that the video is stirring up rage in the global community.
    IBTP for the despair that has settled inside me today.

  94. mearl

    I’m never numb, but this video has made me numb for the last half hour.

    The bewilderness says: “The patriarchy is jealous of men’s ability to bring death. Death trumps life. Killing and fantasizing about killing makes them feel godlike.” I would add to this analysis, which hits the nail on the head quite soundly already, and say that men as individuals and men as a group covet violence, detachment, emotional distance and the ability to kill because they are jealous of women’s ability to give life. To me there is no other explanation why women in groups work and build and communicate and nurture while men in groups kill and beat and destroy and revel in it. I believe many men do not have this feeling as a driving principle foremost in their consciousness, but I believe it is there.

    I just finished Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, “Infidel.” If I could recommend one book as being one of the most important for feminism and international politics right here, right now, it would be this book. It describes in detail and from experience the life that millions of women are forced to live because of the men and their beliefs. Not to say that in Westernised countries women don’t suffer because of men’s beliefs, but the concepts of honour killings, sanctified rape, genital cutting, stonings, hajib, arranged marriage, threat of death, rape, or torture if you dare show an ankle: it’s fucking sick. Patriarchy is a disease, with stonings and burqas on one end of the symptomatic spectrum and snuff porn on the other.

  95. LilliEve

    By the way, where I live, the biggest contributing factor to ill-health and death for women aged under 45 is the fact that men hate them. Truly, we live in empowerful times.

    For those who are interested/ not totally depressed already:
    http://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/Content.aspx?topicID=115

    I blame, oh yes, I blame.

  96. kate

    “A MALE…but I’m gay, so it’s ok”

    I had to read that name twice to really soak it in. No, its not ok and how dare you impose the supposition that it is without asking anyone first.

    Being gay doesn’t get you a “get out of the blame trap FREE” card. You are a man and if you are a white man, you are doubly cursed with your complicity and thus cluelessness. Unless and until you disclose your sexual identity, you are safe. You are free to work within and be successful within the patriarchy.

    We don’t have that privilege, cause we’re women, the ‘other’ that you so cavalierly assume you understand.

    Read the FAQ on this site and I’d also recommend you work on developing some empathy for women and their suffering, something I frankly often see lacking in the gay male community.

  97. kate

    Now back to what’s important.

    Thank you Galloise Blonde for that link, which I scoured. Information is the beginning of revolution.

    Delphyne:

    I appreciate and understand what you are saying, but I disagree with you and also want you to understand that your perception of the act of viewing the film is limiting. Please consider other points on this.

    I viewed the film as to me, not viewing it would be a disgrace. I did not view it with purient intent, nor did I feel a thrill or pleasure or even distateful pleasure viewing it. I felt angry, powerless, overwhelmed, disgusted…I could go on.

    But, I viewed it because to me, the picture is visceral and it lashes deep into my mind what I need to know, it gives power to the rage that I need and must stoke. I have to remind myself why I speak out against assumptions or actions against women or children that are unjust. I must have the burning images screaming out for justice, in my mind’s eye in order to have within me the rage to continue on to fight for truth and support those who do, because it is a tiring and gruesome fight.

    We are challenged and browbeaten, we are questioned, we are led to doubt ourselves. Only with images, with the sounds, with the smells and the tastes of suffering can I continue to remember always why I want to not give in to this social order or in anyway allow assumptions about even worse atrocities than what we have here in the US.

    I know that if I am wretched in blood in a corner, left unjustly murdered and/or tortured to death, I would want without sanction, my image to circulate around to shock as many people as possible. To shame them, to scream at them, to scream out the justice that I couldn’t get while alive.

    Disagree with that, sure, but please understand that the intent of many who view such atrocities is not prurient rubber necking or a new form of entertainment. It is just the opposite, it is the recognition of the act and the refusal to let it die a more vile, second death of silence.

    Also, as a victim of violence myself, my only way to deal with the trauma has been to face it head-on. Once I turn away in fear or loathing of the pain, then in my mind (and this is only my way), I am once again lifting my arm and squinting protectively, hoping that the blows will stop soon.

  98. Shira

    I wasn’t going to watch the video initially. I didn’t think I could – and I am (and I feel disgusted with myself for saying this) glad that the video appears to have been taken after she died and not while she was being dragged out of her house and stoned. It was much easier for me to handle watching the video without having the obvious fact of her agency and her pain and her fear prominent.

    Kate is absolutely right. We have to watch these horrific images of men acting out their hatred of women. As I worked up the courage to DTMFA (thanks again everyone!) a few months ago, I kept thinking of the video I had found on his computer of four men gang-raping a woman in a hotel room. Her face haunts me to this day – her dead eyes, her utter lack of expression, her complete dissociation from the horror of her current situation. And I thought, how could he possibly be aroused by that? How could he stand to watch that shit, when my accidental viewing left me a shaking wreck incapable of even articulating my anger and sense of betrayal, much less be aroused by it? My problems are so insignificant compared to hers, but without the image of her suffering burned indelibly into my psyche, I don’t think I could have made myself believe that her suffering matters.
    Without these images, it is too easy to buy into the patriarchal lie that women’s suffering is trivial, that we are overreacting, that we bring this on ourselves. No one could bring that on herself, and A Male can just fuck the hell off for even suggesting that she was at all responsible for the decision by a mob of men to lynch a girl. This sort of violence works by defining normal (for lack of a less-loaded term) human behavior of subjugated groups as bad or deviant, and then using random acts of terrorism to control those groups. Anyone who suggests “that’s what she gets for acting like she’s a person or something” is an idiot. I really want to emphasize that this terrorism is RANDOM – they attacked her because she was female, and that’s the only reason. Any justification offered by lynchers is a lie. Lynchers lie to give members of the subjugated class hope – because without that hope, there’s no carrot/stick (same damn thing IMO in a patriarchy, since the carrot is just the absence of the stick). Without that hope, they can’t control us. Without that hope, we might just do something about this bullshit power structure.

    Rejecting the lies of the violent patriarchs – giving up hope for a life free from violence and oppression within the existing power structure – is a must. I’m glad that Twisty posted this video – it puts an enormous spotlight on the patriarchy-induced sociopathy of those who would stand there and lecture a beaten and bloodied corpse that just an hour ago was a teenaged child.

  99. Tyler D

    kate:
    But, I viewed it because to me, the picture is visceral and it lashes deep into my mind what I need to know, it gives power to the rage that I need and must stoke. I have to remind myself why I speak out against assumptions or actions against women or children that are unjust.

    kate, your words explain exactly how I felt upon seeing this horror. I knew that it would be upsetting but would put greater energy behind my goal to live as a feminist ally. To those who would say “I’m not a feminist but…” I would say “How can you not be when we live in a world where acts like this are allowed to happen?”

  100. StarWatcher

    A Male — If she KNEW this could happen if she dated a guy from a different religion, she should have avoided that situation all-together by not dating him in the first place.

    How about, “If he KNEW he could be beaten to death by a group of vicious homophobes, he should just have decided not to be gay”?

    Is that clear? Can you understand it in those terms? There is NO DIFFERENCE, you misogynistic asshole.

  101. Dana

    …Y’all? Can I interject into all the Muslim-hate for just a minute?

    I’m, um, actually reading this stuff, right? Got a translation of the Qur’an from CAIR (which, by the way, was written by a guy I can only describe as a flaming liberal, at least for a Muslim–I am not kidding, the book is replete with his commentary and it left me all agape in shock), got books from the library, been following conversations online. OK? I’m not a Muslimah but I’m not coming to this comment completely ignorant of the faith.

    And, well, it’s like this. First off, I haven’t read the whole Qur’an translation yet. But while there are references to the death penalty therein, I do know that for at least some instances of sexual impropriety such as adultery, there have to be four witnesses to the act in order for the penalty to be carried out. If there were not four witnesses to actual sexual impropriety, the death penalty being applied is NOT Islamic.

    There are stories from Islamic history and tradition about various “sinners” who would go before Muhammad or the caliphs and go, “Um, I committed adultery,” and the authorities would say, “Uh, are you sure you want to do this?”, because while there are penalties for bad behavior, there is no religious requirement for the sinner themselves to ‘fess up. (Nice loophole.) There are other tales about accusers, including husbands who caught their wives in the act, going before the caliph or judge or whoever and being told, “Sorry, you’re just one guy and we need four witnesses,” which of course the husband could not produce, so the wife went free.

    This shit in this video, this isn’t Islam. This is a bunch of misogynistic assholes getting their rocks off taking the destruction of their country out on somebody who can’t shoot back at them, take them to prison, or blow them up. When it comes to a war zone or other oppressive situation, shit rolls downhill. Unfortunately, this young woman got rolled upon. I imagine it is no consolation that according to the same faith y’all are condemning as evil and superstitious, these dudes are getting nowhere near Paradise when they die.

    Also, for the record, while Muslimahs certainly have it better here in the U.S. than elsewhere, I’m more than a little disturbed at the “liberal” tendency to condemn practices such as hijab and to find oppression where there is none. It is as if even the “progressive” unbelievers believe they have a right of ownership over a Muslim woman’s body and get to dictate how much of it she shows. It would be nice if women could make our own decisions, even when they don’t fit into “good-guy” orthodoxy.

  102. Dana

    I should add that I jumped to defensiveness because in the first several comments I was getting an undercurrent of, “You see what them damn Muslims do to their wimminfolk, backwards as they are,” and I didn’t appreciate it, but as I kept reading I saw more and more people stating that this is at bottom an issue of men hating women, and to me that’s the real heart of it. Islam may not treat women and men as absolutely the same even if you only go on the Qur’an and nothing else (hadiths, Sunnah, etc.), but the Qur’an does teach that men and women are equal before God, and any attempt by human beings to treat one another otherwise is seen by God as sinful. Most importantly a young woman’s life has been destroyed by hatred, and if nothing is done about her murder (face it, that’s what it was–even if one believed in the death penalty, and I don’t, she got no trial or anything), these assholes will feel emboldened to do something like this again.

  103. Nia

    Male-Gay so it’s ok:

    According to your reasoning, I knew there are Bad People out there, so I shouldn’t have taken a walk alone in the park in full daylight, age 12.

    We know knew that date rape exists and is frequent, and I knew that 40 to 80% of rapes are perpetrated by someone who knows the victim, so no heterosexual woman should have a partner, ever.

    YOU know that gay men run some risk of being discriminated against in this society, so you should stay celibate and inside the closet.

  104. Nia

    About the Muslim controversy: the girl’s family was Yezidi, and their reason for killing her was that her boyfriend was Muslim. I don’t mean to say these are “reasons”, but just to get the facts right, Islam is not to blame on this particular occasion.

  105. therealUK

    …Y’all? Can I interject into all the Muslim-hate for just a minute?

    The first mention of “Muslim” in this thread is in your comment right there. Projection much ?

    Perhaps also note that while Islam is used as a justification for all sorts of violence and misogyny, in this case the perpetrators were Kurdish men of the Yezidi faith. This is not Islam in the sense of it is literally not Islam. So, err, ???

    Anway, for a bit of further light reading, here’s an Amnesty article about women in Iraq

    http://tinyurl.com/4vb3m

  106. Shira

    Yea, Dana, I’m not sure what thread you’re reading, but it ain’t this one.

  107. Helen

    I think the point is that this kind of misogynist killing is a feature of a subsistence peasant culture. It’s not “muslim”, or attached to any other religion. It’s a feature of societies stuck in backward areas and medieval ways of thinking.

    which is not to contradict the analysis of this as patriarchal women-hating. The two (and women-ownership) could well go together.

    I can’t imagine what this girl’s mum is feeling now.

  108. Galloise Blonde

    Some Kurdish newspapers have reported that the mother has called for the Islamist groups to wipe out all Yezidis to revenge her daughter. Two of the murderers have been arrested by the way, and I hope that won’t be the end of it; however I think it’s very important to get the policemen who were there and made no attempt and I’m more skeptical about this happening. After the stoning, Iraqi security forces locked down the town: not to make arrests or anything, but to keep the media out. It’s in this context of press control (which the UN mentions as a major problem in the KRG monitored areas) that the video surfaced, and it’s in this context that it made its impact.

  109. Catherine Martell

    There is no adequate response to this, though I am alternately deeply moved and sickened by the various things posted here. Mr I’m Gay So I’m Allowed To Be A Misogynist has already been adequately dealt with. The posts by Dana, however, are still irritating me.

    I’m, um, actually reading this stuff, right?

    = wants a halal cookie.
    I’ve, um, actually read it too, yeah? In fact, if we’re feeling that the appropriate place to show off about our reading of religious texts is a thread about a teenaged woman being brutally murdered by religious nuts, I could pull a full complement of them out for you. And do you know what? I have yet to read a single one that isn’t a misogynist pile of crap. I don’t know that there’s much to choose between them – I don’t think that the Koran is any more misogynist than the Bible, for instance – but you’re deluding yourself if you actually think that “the Qur’an does teach that men and women are equal before God, and any attempt by human beings to treat one another otherwise is seen by God as sinful.” Look up a few references for me: read the entire book al-Nisa (4); now try 5:6, 24:30-31, 33:29-35, 33:50, 33:52, and 37:149ff. I could quote you more, but that should, if you’re reading any reasonable translation, be sufficient to make the point. It is inherent in the Koran that women are inferior to, and the property of, men.

    It is the same story in the Bible, and the Torah. Abrahamic religions are always hot on the woman-as-chattel thing. To pretend that this patriarchal attitude doesn’t underpin much of the violence we see against women in Abrahamic societies would be disingenuous, to say the least. We can see it in this horrific story here; we can see it in the orthodox Jewish “modesty patrols” who beat women who sit in the wrong bit of the bus in Jerusalem; we can see it in the anti-abortion rhetoric of the Christian right in the US. There’s not much to be gained from discriminating between religions – it’s possible to dig up all sorts of woman-hating garbage from Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. And it’s obvious that the harm done to women by any particular religion has much more to do with the degree of extremism than the flavour of godbag. But to pretend that the hatred of women evinced by this story, or any of those others, is a bizarre aberration in no way connected to the “right” version of Islam/Judaism/Christianity/whatever is either wilfully obtuse or just a big fat glaring lie.

    I can’t face watching the video. There are some images in this world I just don’t want to have in my head.

  110. Galloise Blonde

    Honestly, thanks Catherine Martell. I wanted to say something to Dana as well, but I’ve had a hard week and I was worried about losing my sense of proportion and getting a bit harsh, because it strikes me as a perverse use of her time to defend Islam from a group of thoughtful people who had not even mentioned it once when she might be better sharing the benefits of her learning with Ayatollah Shahroudi, who I believe, has also, um, read this stuff and then possibly contemplating Twisty’s throught-provoking quotation at the top of the page.

    All things are subject to interpretation; whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.

    And to make a practical point: some one was talking about letter writing and further campaigning. Well, obviously you can keep abreast of developments at stophonourkillings.com. Here’s the address for the American contacts for the KRG:

    KRG Representation in the USA
    1634 Eye St., NW, Suite 210
    Washington DC 20006
    Phone: +1 202 637 2496
    Fax: +1 202 637 2723

    and there are many more available at KRG.org

  111. TinaH

    Ummmm, er, :
    Helen, no. The point is not that this is a feature of subsistence peasant cultures. Murder like this is not unique to cultures isolated in backward areas. We have honor killings every hour in the good old US of A, we just call it domestic violence because that sounds so much tidier. That and our American misogynists don’t have to use rocks because they can get guns so easily.

  112. Vernon T.

    “I post the video here, not out of prurience, but because anyone who thinks men don’t hate you ought to see what happened to this teenage girl.”

    Well there’s a nice blanket generalization cast against men but then considering the environment it’s aired in, not all that surprising. As horrific and tragic as this event is and was it’s nothing new in that part of the world. Nothing new at all. On the whole of a world full of women it occurs too much because that it happens even once is TOO MUCH. This is not symbolic however of the notion that “men hate women” as some general rule.

    What this is is the most extreme of example of hatred and an exception to how the vast majority of women experience life. To couch it in a manner as some proof that men hate women is to be divisively paranoid for the sake of being so. It trivializes the actual event to put forth the poster’s own personal views. You want to really spotlight evils toward women let’s spotlight Darfur hell China while we’re at it. Yet even in doing so never lose sight of the fact that what you shine a spotlight upon is still, as grossly heinous as it is, the exception NOT the rule.

  113. Mar Iguana

    Vernon T. Shut up.

  114. mAndrea

    I’ve watched three so far, I’m going to watch them all. It’s important, but understandable if it might be too triggering. Only here at Twisty’s do I feel safe enough, and even then I had to think about it for a day. How can you fight evil, if you don’t know the extent of it?

    I’ve experienced enough violence myself, more than enough. Yet the glee… the bloodlust… I never really knew what that word meant until today… the happy circus atmosphere as they put yet another female in her place. That’s what gang rape sounds like. Boys will enjoy their fuuuunnn!

    Men are monsters. They are not human… It’s wrong to make someone into “the other”, yes? This is what they would say, yes? So yet again, they demand for themselves what they are not willing to extend to others… yes?

    I am a feminazi. And this is why. We can give them studies upon studies, we can deconstruct endlessly, we can show them videos – and still they refuse to see that “honor killing” is on the same spectrum as domestic violence and the cause of both is the exact same. They refuse to see because they don’t want to see. They don’t want to see because they don’t want to CHANGE.

    They took 70 years to acknowledge women’s right to vote. Different men, different time, same control-freakiness. At some point only a masochist continues a relationship with an abuser. And by and large men are either abusers or enablers of abusers.

    Women are groomed from birth to believe their lies. Who was it here who spoke about love being another lie? Romantic love came into fashion in the 18th century. Outright controlling who one’s daughter married wasn’t quite working anymore, thus suitors were introduced to the young lassies and she was allowed to “choose”. Amazingly enough, all the suitors had already been pre-approved by HER FATHER.

    If I could tell a young girl anything, it would be… never give birth to a boy. Have a sonnagram, and never tell them why. Aborting a monster is the kindest thing you could ever do for a girl. If you think motherhood could make a difference, think again.

  115. LouisaMayAlcott

    mAndrea,

    You are right on the mark. I’ve been saying this for 35 years, but this is the *last* thing any woman is willing to listen to.

    Males are aborting females fetuses at such a great rate in South and East Asia, that those huge populations have been seriously “gender”-skewed.

    Now, if we think that the patriarchy is just about “binary gender roles”, then I guess it won’t matter at all if males become 90% of the global population: all the have to do is “unlearn their gender role”, eh?

    Women know, they *know*, at the cellular level, that at the point that they (as individuals) refuse to support the continued generation of males, their lives are worth less than zero to the *general* population, including *females*.

    I maintain that only by displaying, if only passively, absolute loyalty to the continued generation of males, is an individual female’s existence tolerable to other individual females. That’s how deep it goes, and how totally males have won.

  116. Tyler D

    I’ve experienced enough violence myself, more than enough. Yet the glee… the bloodlust… I never really knew what that word meant until today… the happy circus atmosphere as they put yet another female in her place. That’s what gang rape sounds like. Boys will enjoy their fuuuunnn!

    A very scary part of it is the mob social consensus and anonymity. If you took any one of those men individually and put him in front of a young girl and said, ok, you are the agent of patriarchal justice, go ahead and beat her to death with your bare hands, some men would hesitate and a few particularly bloodthirsty ones would not.

    In an anonymous mob, however, those who would hesitate are empowered by anonymity and crowd consensus to do what they might not do alone. It is a perfect illustration of patriarchy – a collective system supported by all but for which no one is completely individually responsible. So, yeah, IBTP.

  117. balom

    It’s a evil mentality that permeates this entire region.
    I found this great esay about it.
    http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/TOXICVAL.HTM

  118. Rumblelizard

    And thank you Vernon, for trotting out the “I’ll give you something to cry about” argument. Patriarchy enthusiasts are nothing if not predictable.

  119. Q Grrl

    Which is it Vernon? “nothing new at all” or “exception to the rule”?

    What, exactly, is your point?

  120. Moira

    Vernon T., you seem to have managed to dodge the Manhattan Island-sized clue aimed for your head. Do read the FAQ so kindly provided for your convenience and edification.

  121. OlderWiserFuckAlltoShowForIt

    About the power of the visual, the NY Times today has an article about how digital pictures are improving conviction rates (they think) of domestic violence cases. And appear to be making a difference as to whether or not bail is set. The polaroids from the old days weren’t as clear and were hard to move from precinct to court and back. Here’s the link to the story for whatever time they’ll keep it up:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/07/nyregion/07cameras.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

  122. Twisty

    Vernon T didn’t read the FAQ. Banned.

  123. mAndrea

    No one has yelled at me yet? Oh dear, that means I’m beyond the pale.

  124. LouisaMayAlcott

    mAndrea,

    First they ignore us. Then they yell at us. Then they ignore us again.

    Works like a charm.

  125. justicewalks

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m certainly not ignoring mAndrea OR LMA. There’s just nothing to add. Women need to stop performing sexual and reproductive services for men and boys. They need to stop doing it altogether, for a long enough time that when, on some distant day, a woman is finally free to choose, not merely acquiesce, to have sex with men and bear sons, the men and boys being benefitted don’t see it as their birthright. I have a feeling, though, that men will be extinct before they realize that women don’t owe them anything, not birthing them, nursing them, loving them, and certainly not fucking them.

  126. Cathy

    Why are all the victims of “honor killings” female? It is more honorable to kill them than to allow them to have minds of their own.

    I saw the video, felt ill, and realized that this stuff has contributed to my depression since I was about ten, reading feminist magazines. Before that, ignorance was bliss.

    Thanks, Twisty, for adding in, “and, if you are a dude, not to be yet another fucking pedantic asshole.” The humor helps to keep me from going insane.

  127. mAndrea

    Balom, stop spreading enlightenment. How can I continue to loathe all men after reading that?

    He also has some other fascinating things to say from this page:

    http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pscindx.htm

  128. LouisaMayAlcott

    Justicewalks,

    If men ever become extinct, it will be because they will first have managed to make women and girls extinct. By design. And with (collective) female acquiescence.

    So it seems to me now in my old age.

  129. LouisaMayAlcott

    mAndrea,

    Yes, I have to admit I give him grudging admiration, if only because he eschews the use of graphics on his website.

  130. thebewilderness

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m certainly not ignoring mAndrea OR LMA. There’s just nothing to add. Women need to stop performing sexual and reproductive services for men and boys.
    justicewalks

    I think you are right.
    I don’t want you to be right.
    If I want a revolution I must accept that you are right.

  131. justicewalks

    At this point, I’d acquiesce to total human extinction if it meant that no more girls and women would be stoned to death for honor and entertainment. It would be nice if women would selectively apply our abilities to reproduce and/or nurse on behalf of the actually human among us, but we won’t. We’ll continue to birth them, love them, and make the inevitable excuses for them. Well, I won’t, personally; the ‘we’ is solely one of solidarity, but you know. So, yeah, acquiescence to extinction doesn’t sound so bad, even if I know most of my fellow women will be acquiescing for the wrong reasons (ie, the pat on the head and cookie the patriarchy always offers in exchange for being good little girls and doing as they’re told.

  132. justicewalks

    I, of course, left off the closing parenthesis. Imagine it’s there, won’t you?

  133. mearl

    Checked my own comment to see if I am a Muslim hatah. Nope, I didn’t mention Islam. I agree with Twisty about the function of power and interpretation. As for the whole “Islam is peace” and “you’re racist if you aren’t accepting FGM and stonings as cultural positivism” horsecrap, read Hirsi Ali. I would also like to add that I am a staunch atheist and pretty much hate all religion, so if you called me a religion-hater, you’d be bang on. I loathe Christianity and all its denominations equally, due to the whole male god/women ain’t shit/violence in the name of god is fabo/men are the final word BULLSHIT spewing forth from pulpits far and nigh. So there ya go.

  134. LouisaMayAlcott

    Ah, we have a spirited crowd here today.

    But it’s too soon to think about a critical mass. I must *not* give in to manic fantasies, I must *not* give in to manic fantasies, dot dot dot.

  135. justicewalks

    When I first read balom’s comment, my hackles raised ever so slightly, just enough to let me know he was likely a racist and that there wan’t any need to follow the link. Something about they way he wrote “this region” or whatever, completely leaving our own society off the table, just made me automatically think, oh here’s another one.After mAndrea’s and LouisaMayAlcott’s praise (did I miss the sarcasm?), I figured maybe I’d jumped to the wrong conclusion. But, no. I hadn’t. The linked essay was absolutely studded with racist gems. I stopped reading when I got to this one:

    But often, symbols from the past take on new meanings and become symbols for grievances. In Bosnia I saw icons displayed by people who from all other appearances had not a shred of religious sentiment, because they had become nationalistic symbols. Thus the Confederate flag has become a focus for attack by black militants and a rallying point for white supremacists. Even more disturbing is a rise in a mean-spirited resistance to any kind of honors for Confederate soldiers.

    The people being mean-spirited are the black people who don’t want monuments to known champions (in the pick a knight to joust in your name sense of championing, no less) of slavery. Poor dears. I can’t think of anything more “disturbing” or “mean-spirited.”

    Here’s another nugget with a little sexism mixed in:

    When women in some African societies were asked if they would limit the sizes of their families, they said first of all they would not go against their husbands’ wishes, and second they would not want to face the ridicule of other women. This attitude is not limited to foreign societies. I know of a young black woman with two children who was asked by her family “you’re 26 and only have two children? What’s wrong with you?”

    Someone once said to me indignantly that if we stopped honoring anyone who was racist and/or misogynist, why, we’d have no one to honor at all, so there. I was supposed to just accept that somebody had to be honored, and if there were only rapists and slave-owners to choose from, I should overlook their shortcomings.

    I’ve never bought that. No cookie from me, balom.

  136. H

    Abrahamic religions are always hot on the woman-as-chattel thing. To pretend that this patriarchal attitude doesn’t underpin much of the violence we see against women in Abrahamic societies would be disingenuous, to say the least. We can see it in this horrific story here; we can see it in the orthodox Jewish “modesty patrols” who beat women who sit in the wrong bit of the bus in Jerusalem; we can see it in the anti-abortion rhetoric of the Christian right in the US. There’s not much to be gained from discriminating between religions – it’s possible to dig up all sorts of woman-hating garbage from Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. And it’s obvious that the harm done to women by any particular religion has much more to do with the degree of extremism than the flavour of godbag. But to pretend that the hatred of women evinced by this story, or any of those others, is a bizarre aberration in no way connected to the “right” version of Islam/Judaism/Christianity/whatever is either wilfully obtuse or just a big fat glaring lie.

    Precisely. Thank you for stating this so eloquently.

    Why are all the victims of “honor killings” female?

    Actually, they’re not. The VAST majority are, but men who are deemed to have besmirched the fmaily’s ‘honour’ by say, consorting as the chosen sexual partner (pr suspected sexual partner) are also targeted.

    Go to stophonourkillings.com, click on ‘photo gallery’ on the side bar and proceed to the victims’ gallery. It details acts of murder and mutilation more horrific than Du’a's story, so be warned (one female friend of mine has already suffered nightmares from looking at this shit). It features a smattering of male victims killed in quite unspeakable ways to protect or restore some other male’s ‘honor’.

    read Hirsi Ali

    Yes. A thousand times yes. That woman has to be one of the strongest-minded individuals in the world to speak out and live as she has.

  137. mAndrea

    It doesn’t make it right, of course, but if she KNEW this could happen if she dated a guy from a different religion, she should have avoided that situation all-together by not dating him in the first place. ~A GAY MALE

    That this thought could even be uttered in this particular thread tells me all I need to know.

    men as individuals and men as a group covet violence, detachment, emotional distance and the ability to kill because they are jealous of women’s ability to give life. To me there is no other explanation why women in groups work and build and communicate and nurture while men in groups kill and beat and destroy and revel in it. I believe many men do not have this feeling as a driving principle foremost in their consciousness, but I believe it is there. ~Merle

    Regarding mob psychology as a way to minimize male responsibility: How many gangs of women roam the streets raping and plundering and stoning?

  138. Cathy

    Another question, perhaps for Galloise Blonde:
    Why has the mother “called for the Islamist groups to wipe out all Yezidis to revenge her daughter,” when (I assume) her own sons were leading the Yezidi charge? Were they actually the girl’s half-brothers, by a different mother?

    Thanks, everyone, for recommended addresses, books and links. I’m too upset to learn more now, but will get my strength up soon – I still have a lot to learn. At least I can tell Dana something: That evil was going on long before we invaded Iraq, and I don’t think they are taking out their frustration with the occupation on her. They are taking out their frustration that she didn’t obey their rules on her. Submit, or die.

  139. sageb1

    As long as a religion demonizes women, it is merely a tool of the patriarchy.

    Yet a religion which demonizes men is also a tool of the patriarchy.

    Given that violence is in essence a tool of the patriarchy, then non-violence can only be the solution.

    In being totally harmless to men and women and children can we reduce violence.

    If a religion condones and allows violence, then it is a grave threat to us all.

    Can anyone here think of a religion which promotes harmlessness and has efficient tools to promote that harmlessness like meditation?

  140. Nelson Piedra

    Es verdaderamente triste el fanatismo religioso, las leyes que someten al hombre han encarcelado la misericordia de Dios (llamemósle Jehova, Padre Ceslestial, Alá, etc)

    Dios tenga misericordia de los hombres

  141. Twisty

    “In being totally harmless to men and women and children can we reduce violence.”

    Well, there’s an idea.

  142. Galloise Blonde

    I don’t know about the mother’s motivations Cathy: but what I have just been told is

    her older brother has master dgree in engineering, ohter brother is in univercity studying english languge, the other one is sutyding comptuer ,and the youngest one is docotr!!!!!!

  143. RadFemHedonist

    Es verdaderamente triste el fanatismo religioso, las leyes que someten al hombre han encarcelado la misericordia de Dios (llamemósle Jehova, Padre Ceslestial, Alá, etc)

    Dios tenga misericordia de los hombres

    fanatical religion, man, (prison?), (days?), Jehova padre celestial…

    that’s all I understood, can anyone translate that?

    I may take up learning spanish again.

  144. Luckynkl

    that’s all I understood, can anyone translate that?

    Translated, it means someone doesn’t know it’s considered poor ettiquette to write in a language other than English on the internet. Other languages can be used, but it should be translated into English as well. Why? Because English is considered a universal language. It’s so people from around the globe can translate it, not just those whose native language is English.

    But I’m all for bad manners. So roughly translated, this is what I make of it.

    “The sad truth of fanatic religions, the laws under the man, have imprisoned the mercy of God (who we call Father, Heaven, Alá, etc)

    God have mercy on men.”

    My response?

    Fuck men, their laws, and their God that never was. Interesting tho how those who beg the most for mercy are so often, the ones who give it the least.

  145. msxochitl

    H: “The next time someone tries to argue that atheists are immoral and religion makes you a better, more moral or ethical person, I’m going to forward them this video. There’s your religion, right there – a woman murdered by a hysterical mob for thinking she had the right to behave like a human being.”

    Thanks, H. I think I’ll do that.

    I have another suggestion: How about, the next time a person who calls herself radical or progressive talks about karma, forward her this video. Then let her explain to you how this woman must have done something horrible in a previous life to deserve this treatment–see, it all balances out, and life is fair after all!

    God I hate religion.

  146. zofia

    Can anyone here think of a religion which promotes harmlessness and has efficient tools to promote that harmlessness like meditation?

    When I was a graduate student, some Theravadan monks came to visit our department. They shook hands with the men and recoiled at the extended hand of the women. We are puss filled bags of filth, after all. They then politely explained that the best a woman can hope for is to be re-incarnated a man. Yep.

  147. Twisty

    “Translated, it means someone doesn’t know it’s considered poor ettiquette to write in a language other than English on the internet. Other languages can be used, but it should be translated into English as well. Why? Because English is considered a universal language. It’s so people from around the globe can translate it, not just those whose native language is English.”

    Are you fucking kidding me?

  148. Theriomorph

    Right now, I don’t have words except to say thanks to Twisty and everyone who’s posted so articulately in this thread, and for the various links to the petitions and burgeoning movement in Du’a’s name.

    I’ll write more about this later on my own blog and pass on what I can – right now, I’m too sick with it. Is that because like most of us, I have a HISTORY and PTSD and am so fragile and broken and hysterical? Maybe. Or maybe it’s because I’m a fucking human being doing my damnedest to NEVER be immune to this pain.

  149. Catherine Martell

    Talk about a leading question, sageb1:

    Can anyone here think of a religion which promotes harmlessness and has efficient tools to promote that harmlessness like meditation?

    Does sageb1 want us to say:
    A. Mormonism
    B. Satanism
    C. Buddhism
    D. Paris Hilton

    Anyone need to phone a friend?

    Luckily, zofia has already provided an appropriate response, as has msxochitl. Otherwise I would have to explain again about how there is actually quite a lot of misogyny in Buddhist societies, and then someone’s going to tell me that they’re a Buddhist and everything’s all gender-unjudgemental sweetness and light in their temple, and that’s going to be entirely like the situation when a man says “But we’re not all rapists!” Yes. I know. Well done you.

    There is no religion I have yet encountered which, when institutionalised/established, doesn’t provide a bunch of patriarchs with a golden opportunity for some women-oppressing.

  150. Twisty

    “There is no religion I have yet encountered which, when institutionalised/established, doesn’t provide a bunch of patriarchs with a golden opportunity for some women-oppressing.”

    That’s right, Catherine Martell. And not just because all religion is unenlightened superstitious seraphim-guano based on zillion year old texts written by sociopath barbarians. The guano has no choice but to be essentially misogynist, on accounta the patriarchal Matrix what spew’d it.

  151. Lara

    I am sorry but I would have to agree with Dana here. I am shocked at the way she was attacked by other posters. I think her point was that there was a bit of the “we Westerners are the harbor of democracy and freedom and those bad Muslims treat their women like crap” mentality (sorry that was long :P). I sensed the Muslim/Middle East-bashing too. It was in a few posts, but this posting thread is so incredibly long that I can’t quote them right now, sorry (it would take me a long time and I have a paper to write). I am not religious at all, I am not even Muslim. I do feel that misogyny can be perpetrated in any way, whether it’s religion, science, philosophy, etc. And I am certainly turned off by the idea that the hijab is equivalent to stoning. I mean for goddess’s sakes! There are women who simply wear the veil to show their devotion to Allah only. It is NOT the same, or even comparable to, being stoned.
    All I can say last in this little post is: my heart goes out to the soul of that young woman and to her family. Sick.

  152. Twisty

    If anyone else proposes to suggest that shocking ‘anti-Muslim’ sentiments run rife through this thread, she will be required to provide the examples. They’d better be shocking, too.

    Until then, I leave you with this, the official position of this blog: I do not advocate favoring an one religion over another with anti-ness. All religion is asinine.

  153. Twisty

    Aha! I have found my own shocking example, this comment by balom. It’s certainly racist in suggesting that “evil” is indigenous to the Middle East, and in providing a link to a repellent racist tirade, but it isn’t specifically “anti-Muslim.”

    Justicewalks takes him out here

  154. Jezebella

    Well, hell. I take a six-day blog hiaitus to gorge on tacos and drive through torrential rainstorms, and come back to find this news.

    Patriarchy just can’t take a fucking holiday, can it?

  155. Valkyrie

    Women create life.

    Men destroy it.

    Monsters.

  156. Nimbrethil

    Um.

    I read through all the comments before Dana ever posted, and I saw not ONE instance of anti-Muslim sentiment. When she posted, her allegation made me go “Durr?”, because I hadn’t noticed anything that amounted to “Muslim hate”. So I then read back through all the comments prior to her post.

    Still nothing. Not ONE even remotely anti-Muslim post.

    I’ve since read through the comments again. Still nothing.

    It looks to me like Dana read the threads with the expectation of seeing anti-Muslim comments and therefore saw what she wanted to see, because I keep going back over the posts, and I haven’t found a single shred of evidence that could be even vaguely construed as contempt for Islam previous to her own post.

    I think it’s only fair for Dana, and Lara, too, to point out any examples of anti-Muslim feeling if either are so convinced it’s there. Other than whining about it, they haven’t actually provided ANY textual evidence, and since I (and presumably others) have double-checked and not found it, we’re entitled to react with “WTF?” The fact that we have, and that only Dana (and now Lara) “saw” anything hateful, is good reason to consider that maybe they don’t know what they’re talkingabout.

    And please, don’t point to Balom’s post, as Dana made her accusation well beforehand.

  157. Mercurial Georiga

    Um, I’m asking because I didn’t click on the video because reading about this made me sick enough already, and I saw no point making myself sicker since I’m already there, unless, the faces of her murderers are shown as well. In which case, could we screencap them and post them? Iraqi still have access to the internet after all.

  158. Mercurial Georiga

    Re: “Women creates life, men destroys it”

    I’m of the opinion that biological gender differences IN GENERAL, does exist, look at nature, with its behavioural patterns (and natural deviations of course, look up the adopting gay penguins!). Even if there is nothing genetic about the way we think and feel, we are affected by our experiences which are affected by the physicality of our bodies.

    Women bleeds every month, long before we are pregnant the first time, unless we’ve really been shut out of information, we know, and we somehow understood, that life, is something that takes 9 months to make. Nine months of growing that life inside ourselves, the /labour/ it is to bring a human being into the world, women, biologically, will have a much greater investment in life, then men. We have less eggs then they do sperms. Females in nature are always the one who had to be more selective than male, females in nature are the ones who chose, the best for the next generation, whereas, the males in nature just have to try to get as many as possible to accept his genetic contribution.

    Of course, we’ve come a long way from nature, we are no longer just instincts, we used our brain to survive better, we cook and we cultivate our foods. We made up REASONS to live as well instead of just seeking to stay alive and procreate. Everything around us reflects that, instincts can be overcome for our collective greater good. When you chose to wait until you find a bathroom instead of going when you want to? That’s you, overcoming your instincts. When you chose to not eat all the cheese in the fridge because you understood you have enough even though you still have that want to consume more fat more protein, that’s you, overcoming your natural drive to eat whenever you could. Everything you didn’t say or didn’t do because you know it would be damaging, or everything you did that was work that you did because you know it had to be done, that’s overcoming our natural drives that no longer benefits us.

    Things remain, women’s higher investment in life, so is the male desire to destroy competition and therefore ensure his access…except, the patriarchy has corrupted the system where women aren’t left to chose anymore, men chose them regardless of their consent, and well, look where society is now? …men can control themselves, because, men /aren’t/ animals, men have the capacity, as all humans do, to think and chose. If they chose to destroy, then they are criminals, if they can’t help themselves, then for the rest of humanity they are ones who must be contained.

    I’m of the opinion that ‘feminist terrorism’ in the Middle East is long overdue, it’s time for women to step in and sabotage and tear down the patriarchy. Beneath the Taliban, there were still women who did what they could, reading and teaching to read in secret. Everywhere where they cannot, they need to do it whatever ways they could, and they need to learn to kill too, the ones who kill them. The specific men who killed women for being women…they’ll have to sleep sometimes.

    Inspirations: The Lady Of The Moon, a Chinese legend I’m quite fond of, there is a backstory before this tale that carried foreshadowing, but by the time this story was happening, the man, the Emperor, has become a tyrant, and now, he is seeking to make himself immortal. His wife the Empress understood that if he lives forever the people will suffer forever, and she too. But before she could dispose of the immortality pills, her husband discovered her, and in a panic, she swallowed them, and that’s when she rose to the sky, all the way to the moon where she resides alone? The tale portrayed the Lady of The Moon as heroic, and she is…what did she do, in essence? She, a woman, had killed her husband a man, in the face of his oppression, since without immortality he will die.

    In spite of Confucian patriarchy fuckery, that still dominates in Main Land, female subversiveness remains when there are cultural models beyond Madonna/Whore, when women are hailed for being devious, when the ‘dark side’, yin, is not The Evil That Must Be Vanquished by the balancing equal. When the physical circumstances allowed, women, readied inside, rapidly rose to equality (or very, very, close to it), see, Hong Kong. A city of Strong Women, who aren’t afraid to use force or underhandedness to defend or avenge themselves (to the point where unfortunately, some men who are not men enough to bed their equals, resort to whining in columns about how they are now looking for ‘nicer’ Japanese or (financially and green card dependent) Mainland wives, le sigh, thank goodness for vibrators and lesbianism because I don’t care for dicks when it’s attached to a bigger dick).

    There are good moderate men of Middle East, the warming suns, but…they are getting killed off by the patriarchy enforcers. A man was gutted and dragged to death for teaching girls a few months ago. If Middle East is going to pull out of this thing before all parts are crumbs, there needs to be a yin fraction that understood the value of life and be willing and capable of removing those that diminish it as well. Feminist Terrorism Now?

    - Mercurial Georgia, Hong Kong – Canadian

  159. Mar Iguana

    “Feminist Terrorism Now?” Mercurial Georiga

    No. Hell no.

  160. Marc J. Randazza

    I can’t agree with some of the absolutely off-the-wall comments on this site. This is hardly evidence that “men hate women.” The commentor that said “I wonder how many guys will jerk off to this” is showing her own sickness. I also fail to see how any of the articles reporting on this blame the victim.

    This is a horrible event, and does reveal a disgusting fact — not that men hate women, but that when one group tries to foist its version of morality on others, you wind up with this kind of behavior.

    This is where following Falwell, Khomeni, Bush, or Dworkin gets you. For more, click here.

  161. Mar Iguana

    Click this Randazza. Then shut up.

  162. thebewilderness

    Mark the painfully unobservant,
    The fact that you fail to see that which is obvious to the meanest intelligence regarding the hatred that your half of the population demonstrates on a daily basis toward the other half of the population doesn’t mean it isn’t there. It just means you fail to see.

  163. Jezebella

    I just figured at least one reason out why the trolls drop in here and spout off: they want us to go to their blogs. Everybody knows that the kid with the most daily hits on his blog is the Coolest Kid in Town.

  164. Spit The Dummy

    Marc said:I can’t agree with some of the absolutely off-the-wall comments on this site. This is hardly evidence that “men hate women.” The commentor that said “I wonder how many guys will jerk off to this” is showing her own sickness. I also fail to see how any of the articles reporting on this blame the victim.

    That’s peachy, Marc. However, I’m afraid that your external genitalia and your law degree aren’t quite enough on this blog to get you a “get out of gaol free” card on actually giving us a real argument here, not just a dogmatic statement of POV. Especially since you’ve just waltzed in here with no personal cred to back it up with. How about addressing some of the comments that prompted your post? Comments that actually referenced primary evidence such as video footage of the murder and journal articles, for example. Anything like that would be acceptable.

    This is a horrible event, and does reveal a disgusting fact — not that men hate women, but that when one group tries to foist its version of morality on others, you wind up with this kind of behavior.

    So, a group of men lie in wait for a woman and murder her as a mob, taking pictures of it, laughing and mocking her as they do it, strip her naked to condemn her morality and you think there is no hint of misogyny there at all? Really? They call it an honour killing, for crying out loud! They’re not talking about her honour!

  165. Marc J. Randazza

    That’s peachy, Marc. However, I’m afraid that your external genitalia and your law degree aren’t quite enough on this blog to get you a “get out of gaol free” card on actually giving us a real argument here, not just a dogmatic statement of POV. Especially since you’ve just waltzed in here with no personal cred to back it up with. How about addressing some of the comments that prompted your post? Comments that actually referenced primary evidence such as video footage of the murder and journal articles, for example. Anything like that would be acceptable.

    I am unclear what my genitalia or my education have to do with my comments.
    I am truly baffled at what a “get out of gaol free card” is, or what that means.
    I do find it to be almost humorous that the retorts to my thoughts are dismissive because I don’t carry the “right” chromosomal makeup, or that I must just be looking for readers for my blog — which is there only for my classes. I offered a link because I believe it is poor netiquette to re-post something that is offered elsewhere, when a link will do.
    That all said, I’ve seen the video of the murder, and I am no less horrified and disgusted than anyone else. However, I disagree with the intellectual laziness that leads to the conclusion of “this is because they hate women.. If that were the case, then they wouldn’t need the excuse of “honor killing” to stone her to death. (Frankly, I fail to see how anyone can use the word “honor” when describing a mob of idiots stoning an innocent girl to death).
    Nevertheless, it appears to be the consensus here that my penis and/or my education render me unqualified to comment on this issue. Therefore, I will leave you to your loathing and your demands of intellectual orthodoxy.

  166. Twisty

    Marc J Randazza is unclear what his “genitalia” has to do with his comments. Banned!

  167. Lara

    I was not saying that many people here are “Muslim-hating” but I could understand Dana’s general interjection with how we can interpret the Koran in different ways.

    Here’s the textual evidence:
    posted by H, May 5th, 4:43 pm:
    “The next time someone tries to argue that atheists are immoral and religion makes you a better, more moral or ethical person, I’m going to forward them this video. There’s your religion, right there – a woman murdered by a hysterical mob for thinking she had the right to behave like a human being. There’s no better tool on this planet for inciting violence, murder and genocide like a ‘holy’ texts.”
    I am only saying that this could be interpreted, in a context in which many people already hate Muslims, as anti-Muslim. I mean, face it, H is basically saying that this type of murder is condoned in the Koran, and Dana was trying to point out that it was not. If I was a practicing Muslim I would be pretty damned offended if someone said that this type of femicide is inherent in the religious texts I read and believe everyday.

    Posted by H, May 5th:
    “Religious folks often like to bleat defensively about science being a religion (much as they like to try to brand atheism as a ‘belief system’ when it is precisely the opposite, a LACK of belief) but that is simply because for the most part, they’re half-educated twits who haven’t the foggiest clue what science actually is and what it isn’t.”

    Again, if there was a practicing Muslim reading this I think she’d be pretty offended. Anyone can use anything, whether religion or science or whatever to enact misogyny.

    Posted by Gallois Blonde, May 6th:
    “Hi Chaser. I’m hoping to write a piece on HK for an academic journal and it’s my position that the difference between this kind of crime, and the one you are talking about, comes from the extended kinship structures which don’t pertain in more individualistic cultures. Any woman risks abuse and murder by a (normally singular) male relative; but classic HK is performed by a conspiracy of male relatives acting in collusion.”
    GROUPS of men attack women quite frequently here, I think it’s problematic blaming this on kinship structure families or non-nuclear families.

    Posted by H, May 6th
    “I guess then that the other thousands of women killed for ‘honor’ because they were raped, because they tried to leave a man who beat them bloody, because they wanted a divorce, because they were emotionally and sexually abused by their husbands, because their families hated their western lifestyles, because they thought that living in a democratic western country meant they were entitled to full human rights under the law to choose their own partners and destinies, means they ’should have known better’ too, right? RIGHT?”
    What is UP with this idea that there’s this instant vile hatred of “Westerners” in the Middle East? What is UP with with this idea that Western law is so democratic and supports the rights of everyone? Are you saying that America really is the land of the free compared to those nasty tyrannical Middle Eastern people? Why do you set them up as opposites? I found that very disurbing.

    Posted by Helen, May 7th:
    “I think the point is that this kind of misogynist killing is a feature of a subsistence peasant culture. It’s not “muslim”, or attached to any other religion. It’s a feature of societies stuck in backward areas and medieval ways of thinking.”
    Oh, backwards? Well thanks a lot for letting me know that Arab cultures are so “backwards” in comparison to those “progressive” American and Western cultures. Wow, that evil femicide must be inherent in a brown people that are just monolithic and never change with time! Sheesh! :/

    And someone had suggested to read Hirsi Ali. Hirsi Ali is completely anti-Muslim, NOT anti-sexism. She levels wearing the hijab with “honor killings.” Hirsi Ali is just a tool that “Westerners” use to bash on all Muslims and all Middle Eastern cultures. She’s full of it.
    So yes, these are the few things that bothered me in the earlier posts. I am not at all saying that all, or even a significant number (!) of people here were using anti-Muslim or anti-Middle Eastern rhetoric. I only noticed bits of it from a few. And the reason I was defending Diana was because I have taken a Representations of Islam course taught by a very feminist professor and we learnt about the ways that the Koran can be interpreted in different ways and does not necessarily HAVE to be a woman-hating text. I also think that Diana’s claim that people were “Muslim-bashing” was too strong, however I think she gave a useful reminder and provided some useful information, especially since many of us do not read the Koran on a regular basis (I am assuming).

    Posted by Nembrithil:
    “I think it’s only fair for Dana, and Lara, too, to point out any examples of anti-Muslim feeling if either are so convinced it’s there. Other than whining about it, they haven’t actually provided ANY textual evidence, and since I (and presumably others) have double-checked and not found it, we’re entitled to react with “WTF?” The fact that we have, and that only Dana (and now Lara) “saw” anything hateful, is good reason to consider that maybe they don’t know what they’re talkingabout.”
    Hey Nembrithil, what is with all that animosity? Did I insult you in some personal way? Where else have I heard people tell women they’re “whinning” when they are simply arguing a point???? Oh, and I couldn’t put any “textual evidence” because it was fucking 2:30 in the morning when I put that post and I was going to post again later with the evidence, OK???? With how incredibly defensive and rude everyone got with Dana right away it seems like they’ve got some bottled up frusteration or something. I don’t know, but I was trying to be diplomatic in my argument and I certainly was not trying to pick any single person out so take it easy with the accusations and name-calling.
    Oh, and my family is from Egypt so I can sense biases against North African and MIddle Eastern cultures from “Westerners” that perhaps some Westerners cannot. I am sure that many of us feminists are familiar with the term “positionality” in perspectives, right?

  168. Cass

    “I disagree with the intellectual laziness that leads to the conclusion of ‘this is because they hate women’. If that were the case, they wouldn’t need the excuse of ‘honor killing’ to stone her to death.”

    Well said, Mr. R. I’ve often had similar thoughts about the intellectual laziness of people who assume “racism” had anything to do with the longstanding practice of groups of white people stringing up black people from trees. I mean, if it were really the case that they hated blacks, why would they need the excuse of “he didn’t get off the sidewalk for me”?

  169. Spit The Dummy

    Marc’s already been banned and this is old hat now but I couldn’t resist replying to him anyway.

    I am unclear what my genitalia or my education have to do with my comments.

    Twisty dealt with this one with the royal banning but puh-lease. A lawyer who doesn’t get why his privileged masculine gender might interfere with his comprehension of sexism against women? He’s stupider than I thought.

    I am truly baffled at what a “get out of gaol free card” is, or what that means.

    And you a lawyer, Marc. Did you never play Monopoly? Or are you one of those people that fails to recgnise anything but traditional Americal spelling, ie of the word “jail”?

    That all said, I’ve seen the video of the murder, and I am no less horrified and disgusted than anyone else.

    See, there goes your male privilege again.
    How could you be just as horrified by this ritualised oppression of women by violent murder as a woman would be? How is that possible? It is pretty damned arrogant of you to think you could be, but typical of male privilege fostered by our culture.

    However, I disagree with the intellectual laziness that leads to the conclusion of “this is because they hate women. If that were the case, then they wouldn’t need the excuse of “honor killing” to stone her to death.

    Why not? Where’s your argument? There’s just dogmatic pronouncements here. And pretty fucking arrogant one’s at that. More arrogant privilege expressed in the “intellectual laziness” charge when you have offered no exhaustive intellectual argument of your own to counterbalance anything offered on this blog. I can only assume you’ve never bothered to read anything here but have just dismissed us because we don’t agree with your opinion.

    (Frankly, I fail to see how anyone can use the word “honor” when describing a mob of idiots stoning an innocent girl to death).

    THAT would be our whole point, Marc. Weren’t you listening?

    Nevertheless, it appears to be the consensus here that my penis and/or my education render me unqualified to comment on this issue. Therefore, I will leave you to your loathing and your demands of intellectual orthodoxy.

    That’s the sloppiest argument I’ve ever come across, which only goes to prove my point that you really don’t have the educational chops to cut it on this blog. I’m flattered that you think my one opinion carries the weight of “consensus” here on “I Blame The Patriarchy” although I’m afraid it doesn’t. And yes, we DO loathe hate crimes such as this appalling murder – I thought your point was that you do, too? Radical feminism = intellectual orthodoxy? Twisty, have you stopped laughing, yet?

  170. RadFemHedonist

    “Religious folks often like to bleat defensively about science being a religion (much as they like to try to brand atheism as a ‘belief system’ when it is precisely the opposite, a LACK of belief) but that is simply because for the most part, they’re half-educated twits who haven’t the foggiest clue what science actually is and what it isn’t.”

    Again, if there was a practicing Muslim reading this I think she’d be pretty offended. Anyone can use anything, whether religion or science or whatever to enact misogyny.

    How do I put this… WAHHH!!! Oh gosh apparently it’s the worst thing in the world to offend someone. Look, I don’t care if I offend people AT ALL, I offend the delusional by calling them out on their delusions, guess what? It doesn’t bother me in the slightest, I am an atheist, I am anti religion because it’s a bunch of lies, I don’t care whether I offend people, period. You have no argument, A)science is not misogynistic, if it’s misogynistic, IT’S NOT ACTUALLY SCIENCE
    B)the person stated accurately that science is not a religion, indeed it is the absence of faith. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying.

  171. Adastra

    Forgive me if I intrude here. I was referred to this blog by a friend. I must confess to maleness, but I repent my accident of birth. It wasn’t my fault; my parents conceived me without first asking my permission and my father recklessly saddled me with a male chromosome.

    I do blame the patriarchy for leaving me unable to enjoy a “healthy” relationship because of the guilt that goes with it when I contemplate the horrible abuse of women by the male power structure. Just by being male, I feel complicit in their injustices and have no recourse except a voluntary celibacy that leaves me feeling sad and lonely, but at least not a deliberate criminal.

    Still, I am trying to raise my consciousness and deal with the fact that I find myself a member of a gender that is completely worthless except in the reproductive sense.

    Long ago, I was forced to the conclusion that no man on earth is worth a damn. I assure the readers that I mean this quite sincerely: I am not trying a sarcastic parody of feminist rhetoric. I am a male and I know this is true. Testosterone is poison. As Crowley once wrote, “Mind is a disease of semen.”

    With that said, I wanted to comment on a couple of points. In this I am not trying to disagree with anyone or offend anyone. I hope the comments will add to the discussion.

    A previous commenter (whose name I forget now, sorry) mentioned that men resent women’s ability to think for themselves. While this is true, I suspect it goes a bit deeper. Men resent women’s ability to feel emotion for themselves. The typical male is reared to shun emotional expression as “unmanly”. What bullshit. Men have emotions also, but are not allowed to express them freely or without apology. Thus men are cut off from their emotional lives and suffer the anomie of a stunted ability to experience affection. This is part of the patriarchal system of control and men suffer from it as well as women, though certainly to a lesser extent.

    I also agree with the general condemnation of religion, especially fundamentalist religion. Fundamentalism of any kind is a primitive superstition that supports the kind of patriarchal mindset that does humanity so much damage. I consider myself a Christian, based on my study of the Bible, but I suspect most “Christians” would consider me a damned heretic. There is very little point, in my opinion, to debating the offensive or inoffensive nature of any “sacred text”. These books were written for the most part by men and naturally display a male bias in much of what they say. However, they also include a number of more enlightened passaged that the fundamentalists ignore.

    I believe and suggest to the readers here that any scripture can be read by people of different mindsets who will glean completely opposite conclusions from what they read. In just the same way, we can see several examples here of blog comments that were interpreted quite differently by several posters who commented on them. From this, I derive the spiritual principle that what a reader gets from any written scripture, or indeed any worthwhile literature, tells us more about the interpreter than it does about what is actually written on the page.

    Thank you for your attention. I hope I have not upset anyone. Forgive me if I have.

    With love,

    Bob,
    aka Adastra, the Wizzard of Jacksonville

  172. ashley

    I agree with Lara and H, and disagree.
    While there are definitely tones of male domination, the allowance of it comes from the religion too. As a matter of fact, it is one of the leading reasons why they get away with what they do. The repression of sexual urges and desires enforced by their strict lifestyle, created by their religion, has caused these types of heinous crimes against women.
    When you want something you can’t have, you destroy it. It’s very barbaric, but very common too. Also, may I point out, that Islam is certainly not exclusive in this barbaric belief, and that Christianity has severe but overlooked female oppression. Until people see reason and abandon superstitious beliefs, they will see what they are doing as wrong. Also, as a final note, this was immensely disgusting and disturbing, but opens eyes, as it should

  173. ashley

    also, may i add, that blaming males for this is not going to solve anything. Blame humans and their underdeveloped frontal lobe, and their
    sad way of dealing with the unknown and the unattainable. Men are not all bad, some of them are. Some women are bad too. Men seem horrible because they are in a way, more emotional. They are the stronger physical race, and have developed an arrogance to go along with it. I know many good men, and many bad ones. I however do blame the patriarchal society we have built up, but I also blame women for not stepping up and doing something about it. I’m not talking about aggressive feminist movements, or “man-haters”. I’m talking about smart women who know that pointing fingers won’t work. The best thing anyone can possibly do is educate. Educate the world, promote critical thinking and reason, and slowly(for we are a dull species) we will begin to reach a sense of equality.

  174. Yeny

    ashley, I disagree and find your comments to be repulsive.

    The problem with a patriarchy is that it doesn’t blame men, it caters to men’s disgusting whims and at the same time argues that men cannot help themselves with the shit that they pull. So women have to mold themselves to men’s desires and hence men believe that we live in a perfectly natural and normal state of affairs.

    You seem to have completely bought into this and whilst you refuse to blame men instead saying that we should ‘blame humans’ you then go right on to blame women! Because it’s our fault we don’t do enough to stop men from raping and killing us. Oh, but don’t hold the poor men accountable for their actions, because women can be bad as well, didn’t you know!

    It should not be up to women to point out to men what an utter disgrace they are to humanity, they should be fully aware of it, but they’re not and for that IBTP and people like you, ashley.

  175. malalou

    I have been lurking here awhile, and would like to finally post. I have resisted the temptation to join in, because I wanted to read, mostly. I appreciate the viewpoints of Rev. Twisty very much.Thanks, Twisty and others….

    I have concluded that speaking one’s mind about the oppression of women by men is an unpopular thing. It’s all very ‘Matrix-y’, isn’t it?… the truth seems to exist in some place in the consciousness which they (men and women like ashley) dare not go, rather than face the truth that they are not free. They will fight to defend the illusion… The only way to have real freedom is by choosing Truth, no matter the consequences – just like taking the Red Pill.

    Many are not ready for the Red Pill. You have to trade so many well-cherished beliefs for it. Like ‘men don’t hate women…’
    In fact, they do. Violently. I have seen no concrete evidence otherwise.

    All major religions are headed by men. All have oppressive teachings about women. War is about who controls the pussy essentially. ($=power=control over the resources, pussy being nothing but an exploitable resource in this paradigm) Women are the spoils of war. Goes back a long time… ever happen to read the biblical story of Moses & the Midianites?

    And how about the concept of sex-tourism? Does that make anyone want to vomit as much as it does me?

    Where is the proof that men don’t hate women? lol. I’d like to see it.

    What this video represents to me at this moment, is that we are in a crisis of global proportions – this is a symptom. The disease – and it may kill us all – is patriarchy.

    environmental degradation=patriarchy
    war=patriarchy
    world hunger=patriarchy

    you may have to take a little drive through corporatism and capitalism and religion to see those connections clearly, but one will wind up there.

    No, I cannot watch the video. Not yet, maybe someday. I don’t think I could take it. I know what it contains. A human being mercilessly beaten by people she likely trusted and loved. People whom she thought loved her… family…

    To Ashley – I really disagree with the tone of your post. Blaming women for their own subjugation… I don’t get it. Really, this is one of those causes you’re either for or against (I can’t believe I mean that, but I do)…

    I definitely blame the patriarchy.

  176. Big Bill

    As Jesus said to the Jewish men who were stoning another woman for “loving the wrong man”, “Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone.”

  177. Emma Goldman

    Okay, wait,

    So Big Bill is pointing out that WE are casting stones by calling out, discussing, voicing dismay over injustice????

    I just could NOT let that fly without saying this:

    WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS??? IT WAS WRITTEN BY MEN.

    Some nice poetry in there…maybe even a female author in drag here and there, and yes, great stories…

    but jesus christ,(pun intended) it’s all gone to pot, the bible’s message, and that of all the other major scriptures…

    and this entire post, and perhaps without wanting to EVERY COMMENT, is testimony to the FAILURE of religion to be as it intends: a way for humans to live better lives while here on earth.

    and as a flaming lipstick dyke, let me just add that I would LOVE for that gay boy to actually take responsibility for the absurd mysoginist BS he spewed, but guess what, ladies? Our world NEVER requires men to grow the F&**k up, n’est pas?

    Thank you thank you thank you Blame the Patriarchy for letting me spew a tad. Now maybe I can go to sleep.

  178. Lexia

    This is late, but time does move forward and provides its own irony and sometimes its own justice.

    I read about the horrendous truck bombing in Iraq in August via my usual progressive sources. They listed over 500 killed. I had the usual reflexive moment of shame that I am a citizen of the country that brought this violence on a sovereign nation, one that had not attacked my country nor otherwise provoked it. But buried in a small paragraph, unimportant to the liberal male bloggers, was the fact that the victims were Yazidi.

    I had a former acquaintance who was an NRA supporter burst into metaphorical flames when I causally remarked about handgun freedom “Yeah, but it’s mostly men killing each other, why should I care?”. He thought I should both grant men the freedom to kill each other but also care that they did.

    It seems the liberal (male) press has the same misconception.

  179. Eurosabra

    The utterly sick thing, according to one Iraq insider (www.michaeltotten.com) is that the branch of Al-Qaeda in Iraq that carried out those truck bombing pushed the meme that it somehow did so partly to avenge the victim of that “honor killing”.

    Sick f!cks. All Al-Q in Iraq ever cared about was killing Yazidis, Assyrians, Armenians, all the non-Islamic religious minorities, to restore them to their natural status–”dhimma”–3rd and 4th class non-citizens under the guiding green light of fundamentalist Islam.

    Irony and justice indeed. Watch out for strange bedfellows.

  180. Mar Iguana

    After Du’a was stoned to death, her body was dragged behind a car through the streets. Later, “… Du’a's body was exhumed and sent to the Medico-Legal Institute in Mosul so that tests could be performed to see whether she had died a virgin.

    http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/121307WA.shtml

    Words fail me.

  181. lexia

    Eurosabra,

    They’re males, you’re male. The primordial layer of bedfellows.

  182. Eurosabra

    Don’t think I’m insensitive to the structures of power I “serve”, although I try to mitigate their effect, since most of my experience with the conflict has been as a civilian medic.

    Actually, since I once saw a woman blow herself up to kill men, and once to kill another woman, and watched the soldier-girls march off to war, I think we could all do with a little questioning of our power-structures :-). Jihadi patriarchy makes “damaged” women who can no longer compete in traditional societies’ feminine role (one had a pregnancy she couldn’t explain, one was too burned in an accident to be a pretty bride, etc.) into suicide bombers.

    There’s bedfellows, and well, then there’s bedfellows.

  183. Mar Iguana

    And, then, there’s burning beds.

  184. Eurosabra

    In my native tongue, “Mar Iguana” means “Mr. Iguana”. Ambiguity is a wonderful thing. What does it mean to you?

    Just because some of us are born into a coloniser’s position doesn’t mean we don’t know how we got there. Or, for that matter, how the State got there. And before that, the land.

    I think a few burning beds might be a salutary thing, given how very, very many women are being burned at present. Or at least the THOUGHT of it should give the burners-of-women pause.

    As for the rest, the oppressors themselves play the hunter and the hunted, and everyone else is only quarry.

  1. Feminist Law Professors » Blog Archive » Yes, Vile.

    [...] Take a deep breath and read this post at IBTP. I watched the video, and it is going to haunt me for a long time. [...]

  2. The Hackenblog » Teenage girl publically tortured to death

    [...] (via Twisty) [...]

  3. Anglofille » a woman, like me

    [...] I’m posting a link here to a blog post that contains a video that is probably one of the most horrific things I have ever seen in my life. I wish that I hadn’t watched it because it has upset me in a terrible way. It is video footage of a woman in Iraq who has just been stoned to death by a mob of men as part of an “honor killing.” These men are filming this woman with camera phones and laughing. This act of misogyny and pure savagery is incomprehensible to me. I can’t even begin to explain how I feel right now so I won’t try. [...]

  4. Redneck Mother

    Remember Mother’s Day, Sunday May 13!…

    It would be easy to say, especially if the US hadn’t made such a big deal about liberating Iraq from tyranny, that this sexist violence is Iraq’s problem, that it runs deep in the culture, and that we’re not like that….

  5. hideous... « Sparkle*Matrix

    [...] “Because this shit never goes away, it will surprise no one that this girl’s murder began by eight men dragging her from her house into the street, and ended after they had hurled rocks at her for half an hour. Nobody will raise much of an eyebrow when it is revealed that a mob of people watched this murder, and that none of them felt sufficiently moved by notions of a higher moral purpose to intervene. There is nothing particularly out of the ordinary, even, in that more than one of the frenzied spectators possessed such sangfroid as to record the murder with a cellphone video camera and post it on the internet, where it is causing a mild sensation; after all, this is nothing that American soldiers haven’t done, and done famously” Warning this video is graphic and triggering. [...]

  6. Jen’s Den of Iniquity » because i’m lucky

    [...] because i’m lucky enough to live in a country where this doesn’t happen, i have an obligation to fight for those who are not as fortunate – who can be killed for being a woman. because there but for the grace of god, go i. [...]

  7. Reverse Paranoia | the cat lady speaks

    [...] I vacillated about leading you to this for the same reasons Twisty and commenters noted.  I settled for not embedding the video as a concession, out of fear of inculcating racism or attracting “exception to the rule” patriarchs. [...]

  8. The first steps toward the end of the Patriarchy « Bubbas’ Nightmare

    [...] There’s been a lot of traffic in the blogosphere about concrete steps that could be taken to dismantle the Patriarchy. A daunting task to be sure, but in light of recent events, I feel I personally can no longer just sit on the sidelines and just cheer others on. [...]

  9. Vile, indeed « I, Bonobo

    [...] Vile, indeed Published May 8th, 2007 Uncategorized It’s fitting that after posting about the misogyny that is Islam, I would run acrossthis post at Twisty’s. The only thing I can say is thank gawd the video isn’t real clear. [...]

  10. Theriomorph

    stoned to death…

    a personal essay for DuÂ’a Khalel Aswad…

  11. Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Objectification, War Crimes, and Dinosaur Bones

    [...] Oh, I have that “oof” feeling fairly regularly. I had a much more severe reaction recently when Twisty posted the video of the Iranian girl being stoned to death on I Blame the Patriarchy. I wouldn’t even call that an “oof” feeling, really. It was a terrible moment of grief and inadequacy which lasted, oh, 12 hours, before my brain reasserted its general keel of optimism, for better (I remain functional) and for worse (functional, but skimming triviality). [...]

  12. 17 year old Kurdish girl stoned to death in Kurdistan of Iraq - Political Forum : US & World Politics

    [...] Originally Posted by Daily Mail’] A 17-year-old girl has been stoned to death in Iraq because she loved a teenage boy of the wrong religion. As a horrifying video of the stoning went out on the Internet, the British arm of Amnesty International condemned the death of Du’a Khalil Aswad as "an abhorrent murder" and demanded that her killers be brought to justice. Reports from Iraq said a local security force witnessed the incident, but did nothing to try to stop it. Now her boyfriend is in hiding in fear for his life. Miss Aswad, a member of a minority Kurdish religious group called Yezidi, was condemned to death as an "honour killing" by other men in her family and hardline religious leaders because of her relationship with the Sunni Muslim boy. They said she had shamed herself and her family when she failed to return home one night. Some reports suggested she had converted to Islam to be closer to her boyfriend. Miss Aswad had taken shelter in the house of a Yezidi tribal leader in Bashika, a predominantly Kurdish town near the northern capital, Mosul. A large crowd watched as eight or nine men stormed the house and dragged Miss Aswad into the street. There they hurled stones at her for half an hour until she was dead. The stoning happened last month, but only came to light yesterday with the release of the Internet video. It is feared her death has already triggered a retaliatory attack. Last week 23 Yezidi workmen were forced off a bus travelling from Mosulto Bashika by a group of Sunni gunmen and summarily shot dead. An Amnesty International spokesman in London said they receive frequent reports of honour crimes from Iraq – particularly in the predominantly Kurdish north. Most victims are women and girls who are considered by male relatives to have shamed their families by immoral behaviour. Kurdish authorities have introduced reforms outlawing honour killings, but have failed to investigate them or prosecute suspects, added the Amnesty spokesman. Kate Allen, the organisation’s UK director, said: "This young girl’s murder is truly abhorrent and her killers must be brought to justice. "Unless the authorities respond vigorously to this and any other reports of crimes in the name of ‘honour’, we must fear for the future of women in Iraq." Click Here for Story[/quote] [quote="I Blame the Patriarchy It is with curled lip and bloodshot eye that I anticipate a total lack of surprise at the news that last month a 17-year-old Iraqi girl was stoned to death in an “honor killing” — words I cannot type without overloading my Oxymoronitron. I expect abhorrence, yes. Disgust, yes. A crushing sense of the futility of it all, yes. Surprise, no. Because this shit never goes away, it will surprise no one that this girl’s murder began by eight men dragging her from her house into the street, and ended after they had hurled rocks at her for half an hour. Nobody will raise much of an eyebrow when it is revealed that a mob of people watched this murder, and that none of them felt sufficiently moved by notions of a higher moral purpose to intervene. There is nothing particularly out of the ordinary, even, in that more than one of the frenzied spectators possessed such sangfroid as to record the murder with a cellphone video camera and post it on the internet, where it is causing a mild sensation; after all, this is nothing that American soldiers haven’t done, and done famously. Click Here for More __________________ Nicest Girl & Destroyer of Planets <~~click. be warned ~ 18+ [...]

  13. honor killing redux « unconventional beauty

    [...] my most recent find is a post on anderson cooper’s blog discussing honor killings, which i would like to deconstruct in light of the recent posts by twisty and heart on this subject. [...]

  14. Group of Men Torture Iraqi Girl to Death « Fitness for the Occasion

    [...] June 4th, 2007 I can’t sleep, and this isn’t helping.  Via Shut Up, Sit Down, a girl was dragged from her house and stoned to death.  I Blame the Patriarchy has the details: I post the video here, not out of prurience, but because anyone who thinks men don’t hate you ought to see what happened to this teenage girl. They ought to hear the jeering of the mob of men who circled her like hyenas and tortured her to death. They ought to watch the flash of flip-phone videographers trying to capture the butchery for posterity. They ought to puke when confronted with the delusional, sociopathic depths to which any man can degenerate when indoctrinated, as all men are, by a culture of domination. [...]

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>