As blog traffic increases, so doth the general clamor for sex advice. From dudes. Straight dudes.
I have not yet developed a hypothesis as to why this should be so. I sort of wish it would stop, though. When dudes write me about sex I find myself making the same face as that sticker they put on bottles of poison, Mr Puke or whoever.
Today, for example, I received a sex advice email that made my hair puke. Its author asked for “relationship advice,” but sure enough, it was sex he wished to discuss (I have developed a hypothesis explaining this phenomenon. I’m sure you have, too.) I reproduce the email here in its entirety, with a word of warning to those who care to forge ahead: do so on an empty stomach. It is a viscera-scrambling expression of the invisibility of rape culture and male entitlement that will not sit well with lunch, written by someone who probably considers himself a pretty decent guy. I’m guessing that, by commonly accepted liberal white dude patriarchal standards, he probably is. Which is the chilling part.
He writes to ask me if I think he is serially raping his girlfriend.
Dear Twisty,
As a 20something white male who doesn’t do quite as much patriarchy-blaming as I probably ought to, I figured that, having worries about equality in my sex life and a slight problem with run-on sentences, I would skip e-mailing Amanda Marcotte or somebody and get sandblasted by a real firebreathing feminist. Also, everything I say is, obviously, my best guess and not some kind of Objective Truth, so maybe the problem is just that I’m overlooking something important. Anyway.
My girlfriend has a peculiar array of patriarchal hang-ups inherited from her military father and stay-at-home (I think?) mom, the most relevant being the ideas that a) vaginas are dirty and b) sex is super dirty and should be done as infrequently as possible, and only in the dark. I have heard both these complaints, more or less, from her own mouth. We aren’t having penetrative sex for a variety of reasons, she has no desire to give oral sex, which also doesn’t bother me, and she gives pretty crappy handjobs, but none of these things make me worry about coercion, etc. What does is that she never, ever initiates sexual activity. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have fingered her and she appears to have enjoyed it, but if I start undressing her (and she doesn’t get out of her clothes without some prodding), she usually asks “What are you doing?”, progressing to “Eek! Stop it!” and scowling at me. This pattern fits pretty much any other kind of heavy petting, etc. beyond kissing, as well. She’s told me that she generally has no desire to initiate sex, but once things get going, she enjoys herself pretty well (This sentence is somewhat ambiguous. I mean to say that she has told me both things, not that she has told me the former and I have observed the latter). Also, I am sure she would not stick around if she didn’t find me, in some way, attractive.
So, I guess my worry is, am I, if not raping her, engaging in some kind of serious coercion? The “What are you doing?”s, etc. seem to be of a sort of different character than when she’s telling me, e.g., that she does not want me to give her oral sex (which I would happily do, otherwise). Given that she does start enjoying herself once she relaxes, are her early protests actual protests, or the voice of psychological hang-ups? Am I doing something really wrong?
Confusedly,
Alex
Dear little Alex,
If your girlfriend had written me — and I rather wish she had — I would have advised her to dump you.
She dislikes having sex with you. If she did not, she would ask you for it. She endures it because she wants to feel loved, and letting men maul their vulvas is how many women are taught that men express love. Believe me, she is relieved when it is over.
What’s with this “she gives pretty crappy handjobs” bullshit? Perhaps she is unaware that you employ a handjob rating system. And what’s with this “she needs a bit of prodding” crap? Prodding! Do you comprehend the meaning of the word “prod”? I mean, there’s more or less a general concensus on that. Or are you stupid?
And what’s with this bullshit pop-psychology “hang-up” crap? What are you, Dr. Phil? And holy-smirking-mother-of-a-dead-Nazarene, what mysterious aspect of “eek stop it” is eluding your grasp? Do you imagine that there is some kind of nice-guy difference between ’serious coercion’ and ‘rape’? Jesus! Use some common sense, boy! She said “stop it.” Do you seriously delude yourself that “stop it” is some “psychological hang-up” code for “please proceed to violate me”?
Leave the poor kid alone, for crissake. Just stop. You are certainly raping her. The question is, are you also a moron?
Thanks for writing.
Twisty
I’m sure yall will have plenty of insights to add. Let’em rip, girls.
Ah. Poor Alex. Even in a consensual relationship, no still means no.
“She has hangups.”
Yeah. She prefers to get sexed by someone who isn’t you. Jeez, what a prude.
Leave her goddamned vagina the hell alone. It doesn’t like you. That’s why it doesn’t want to come out and play.
And frankly, with as much cunt-hating as goes on in this sad, tired old world, I don’t blame it. I vote for your annoyed, long-suffering, ain’t-into-your-sad-ugly-ass girlfriend’s vagina to sip tea and read a nice book by itself for as long as it damned well pleases.
Loser.
As to why they insist on writing to you, it’s probably a combination of thinking that a dyke would be able to sympathizae with their annoyance at not getting the pussy they feel they deserve (sort of the reverse of a fag hag only they’re too stupid to know that dykes don’t WANT fag hags), plus a sort of flasher mentality. They flashed the dyke! Whee! They’re, like, daring! Or something. Like a little kid ringing your doorbell and running off.
Your typical overgrown infant, a giant 8 year old. Gosh, I can’t imagine why any woman wouldn’t want him pawing at her.
Alex, you’re the reason why “hangups” exist, honey.
What really got my goat wasn’t just that he would proceed to sexually violate her after she made it clear that she wasn’t interested, but that he had the audacity to assume she enjoyed it; a kind of pat-on-the-back for what he *knows* he *did*, which is rape his girlfriend..
It’s really a typical cover-up for the fact that guys like these, which is to say practically all men at one time or another, don’t question the fact that they did when she said do not. He obviously knew she said “STOP,” otherwise he wouldn’t have said so himself, but he acted as if she had not. It’s the supreme ideological gesture of patriarchy to act as if women aren’t human even when you know they are. So, I don’t think he’s a moron as much as he doesn’t give a shit about his girlfriend, and probably women in general.
Interesting how even in acknowledging her “patriarchal hang-ups,” he seems to think that he can overcome them just through warming her up. He, the ‘real man,’ can conquer her ‘hang-ups’ through earnest digital manipulation (and as a girl with ‘Daddy issues,’ I can understand how these things can be relatively apparent; even those uninitiated in the nuances of psychology can often tell that these things have continuing effect on subsequent relationships with men. — Go ahead, ask me what I dreamt about my father last night).
This reminds me of the prescription of bootcamps for delinquents who have a history of neglect and abuse. They function along the lines of, well trauma fucked their heads to begin with, let’s see if we can traumatize the fuck-up-ed-ness right out! And that’s why kids who go through these programs have over a 99% recidivism rate (according to some studies).
As a note to Alex: Forcing this girl to continually relive what she clearly feels to be trauma ain’t going to ‘fix her.’ And no, you can’t ‘fix her’ with your wonderful masculinity either.
Wow. If you have to wonder if you are raping your girlfriend you most likely are.
Did he happen to write you back?
I read in the Twisty FAQ that I should only post if I know what I’m talking about. I’m not sure how I’d know the difference between knowing what I’m talking about and being full of shit, but here goes.
It seems to me that if you’re not 100% positive that the sex you’re having is consensual, it probably isn’t. Even if you’ve just got shitty communication with your partner and whatever you’re doing is *actually* consensual, proceeding when you are asking yourself a question as serious as, “is this rape?” is just as bad as if it really was.
Another thought is that if you’re writing to someone like Twisty (”a real fire breathing feminist”), then I think you already *knew* the answer to your question. You wanted *Twisty* to tell you so you wouldn’t have to tell yourself. That way you can simultaneously tell yourself she’s wrong, and that you didn’t really know. She’s *not* wrong and you *did* know. Don’t make things worse by denying what you know is true. If it wasn’t true, it wouldn’t hurt you to hear it… though it might *not* hurt you to hear it because you’re an asshole-rapist as opposed to a nice guy-rapist, but if you were the former, you probably wouldn’t have written Twisty. You wouldn’t even have thought about your girlfriend enough to ask yourself a question you instinctively knew the answer to. You’re a nice guy you thought, so it’s not possible that you could be raping your girlfriend, but you knew that you were, and you knew that you if you weren’t the thought wouldn’t even have occurred to you, but you went ahead and did it anyway.
As rightfully shitty your probably feeling right now… well, I’m not really an appropriate person to speculate about how your girlfriend might be feeling, and neither are you. I don’t know. I can’t know because I’ve got male privilege oozing out my finger tips even while I write this. It’s my male privilege that let’s me sympathize with you at all, that’s more than you can/should expect from any of the excellent women here. So don’t pity yourself too much, and don’t make excuses. Accept responsibility for your actions and be damn sure you never do anything like it again.
Speaking of ringing bells… I know so many honky liberal/leftist fellers who would do (have done) just this. Have sex with me while I’m crying and show up the next week at the Take Back the Night Rally with his new girlfriend, or a handful of unique but equally sad iterations of the same. Does this cultural phenomenon crush anyone else’s will to get involved in activism?
I feel like, going out and standing in solidarity with men, any men, is standing with people who think nothing of committing terrible crimes against the human spirit — if nothing else, because they are conditioned just so. But feminism in action, like any other human rights effort, must not exclude men.
How do we work around/with this in community organizing and suchlike? In the blogosphere, obviously, we should post their email addresses in public forums for spamming, or ignore them, or perhaps openly and honestly engage them as Twisty can. Outside of it? I can’t bring myself to engage much politically anymore. I’d rather have that book and tea.
Imagine the psychological trauma this girl must have lived through in her young life to distort her idea of sex so much that she’s not willing to be raped.
I’m glad Alex didn’t write any other blog or the guy named Greg, because he would have been given a bunch of shit advice that encouraged his rapist tendencies, at least certainly would not have called him on it, and the thread would have been into the high hundreds as the regulars of those blogs had a fine old jerk off while micro-managing Alex’s burgeoning career.
H, I think the only thing to do is hold extremely high standards and do not back down frmo them one inch. No pity, no sympathy, no “oh but he seems nice so we’ll ignore that nagging suspicion in the back of our minds.”
Seriously. I don’t say this because I think I probably fall into this category (although note that my awareness of it isn’t stopping me), but what you want to do is get the one woman in the activist group who is the fucking hardass, the one who doesn’t give ANY slack to men, the one you’ve probably considered a bitch more than a few times, the one who is instantly suspicious of male privilege … and let her vet the men who want to get involved. In any TBTN-type rally, there will be a maximum of five males who have the slightest business being there. Five, MAX. No more. Men who clue in are just not that common, and you and ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE must internalize the bone-deep certainty that you are not required to be nice by giving them a chance. Exclude as a matter of course — and then titrate them into the group one by one (that makes two, which should be about the average) based on the fact that they hold to very high standards of comprehension.
I can think, right now, of three men who I would accept into ANY activist effort, no matter how many women are present. Three. I’m 41, and I’ve accumulated a whopping three males out of three billion whose presence I would accept without question. Three out of three billion.
Work out that fraction. That’s what you need to do — again, expose them to the hardest, bitchiest, most steel-toothed granite-hearted bitch in the entire organization. If she says no, then it’s no. And if “Oh, but that wouldn’t be nice of us, let’s give him a chance” ever passes the lips of any woman in the room, then it’s a double hell-no.
Another Major Indicator: If, even in a jokey, jesting, little-boy tone of voice, he even vaguely hints at, “Gosh, I have to admit I was a little scared to come here *chuckle chuckle*” — shitcan him. He’ll follow it up with a face that will all but demand that you all drop everything and rush over to confort adn reassure him that you’re all REALLY REALLY NICE. Fuck him. He should be a little scared. Feminism should be threatening to the established order, and if it doesn’t make him confront icky things about himself that makeh im a bit queasy, it’s not doing its job. You’re all there to work your asses off for women, not kiss some Nice Guy’s backside to reassure him he’s not Like Those Other Guys, You Know, The Bad Ones We’re Protesting Against.
I’m dead serious — if he even slightly jokes about being scared to show up, broom him.
More importantly, and I can’t say this enough, hold to extremely high standards and do not compromise them one millimeter. And never allow yourself to back down because you want to “be nice” and “give him a chance.” You do not owe ANYONE that. You aren’t shooting these men dead or throwing them into a lava pit; you’re merely excluding them from a march. If they’re decent or have that capacity in them, they’ll understand. If not, the hell with them.
I mean, what is this “be nice and giveh im a chance” but yet one more variation on the overarching theme of all women’s lives: Don’t Piss Off Mr. Sir Or Else He’ll Get Very Angry And Do Bad Things To Me. It should go without saying that that dynamic has no place in a feminist activist event, or feminism at all. Piss them off, and don’t dare be afraid to do so.
Don’t worry, she can go to that Handjob Summer Camp that was mentioned a few posts back.
Having been on the giving end of “no” and the receiving end of “you know if you just relax you’ll enjoy it, honey” let me say this to you with certainty:
BACK THE FUCK OFF, AY-LEX. NO IS FRIGGIN’ NO. SHE WANTS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR SKANKY SELF.
Twisty, how do you abide this shit?
Alex, the short answer is - yes you’re a rapist.
But you already knew that, didn’t you.
Alex, you want anyone to take you seriously that you didn’t know? Disengage yourself from her at once. Insist she get help–really insist. Hold her hand as a friend while she works things out and do no more than that!
Grow up and take full responsibility for what you’ve been doing.
Word, LYMC.
Something I’ve been telling myself, particularly since the heated exchanges we had back around when we were doing the Firestone-stuff, is that this is not my show; this is a woman’s movement. I read Chris Clarke’s explanation of why he’s not a feminist, why he doesn’t call himself one anyway, and it helped me re-coordinate my position in this blog and with women (and their liberation) generally.
The “I was scared to come” bit sounds to me like someone who wants attention, who wants the show. I think, from my naive perspective, that if men are seriously interested in women’s liberation, they must take a backseat position– and don’t be a back-seat driver. That doesn’t mean not saying anything either, but being upfront with yourself that (1) you aren’t always, if ever making all the important and mind-blowing commentary/observations/analysis and (2) you don’t need to make all the important commentary/observations/analysis to be a part of women’s liberation– and (3) if you think (2) doesn’t apply to you, or you find yourself acting that way, you aren’t interested in women’s liberation as much as asserting your (male) dominance.
Dear Alex,
I don’t know enough to say if I am sure that you have raped her or not. I agree with LCforevah that she needs help. You probably do, too.
Hi. I’m a long-time lurker, first-time commenter.
While I think this guy is well-intentioned albeit totally clueless, I cannot help but cringe incessantly while reading his description of their sexual “relationship.”
This post reminds me of a nightmare version of my partner and I’s relationship. For us, the frustration lies in that we both want to be very sexual, but because of my disability, such activities become quite awkward and frustrating. My mouth doesn’t open to give blow jobs; I lack the strength to give a “quality” handjob; and vagina intercourse and fingering fucking hurts.
In the beginning, I gave in to the patriarchy and asked him to finger and fuck me. He never coersed me, and I always asked him to do it. If anything, the biggest pressure was from my girlfriends, who constantly assured me that “I’d get used to it” and “I’d eventually love it.” Well, I’m not a fan of suffering, even if I do love the guy, so vagina penetration of any kind was soon stopped.
Oh, we are not lacking in our sex lives. We have our “things” — nice, pain-free things that get us both off — but if my partner ever started pressuring me, we’d soon be separated. He respects and acknowledges that I do not like or cannot perform most heteronormative sex acts, and thus our relationship is built on things of greater significance than him trying to “warm me up.”
Alex needs to back off, actually talk to and listen to his partner, or move on.
Okay, gigantic, articulate EEEEWWW that he sent this to Twisty, who has ALSO not initiated this kind of activity - WTF? Hurt me, Twisty, hurt me, it makes me so hot? Gross.
Isn’t Dan Savage a bit more what you’re looking for - someone to tell you she’s so f*cked up you just have to f*ck it out of her, or DTMF? Hey Alex’s girlfriend: DTMF. Maybe it’s just my mood these days, but I am all outta love for this whine. See more coherent commenters.
No Alex, do NOT stay anywhere around her, do not ACCOMPANY her anywhere, and do not hold her hand or suggest she do anything. Get the fuck away from her. You are a criminal, you’ve just not been charged or detained yet.
If she has any psychological issueS?????
WTf?????? IT’S ALEX WHO IS WARPED!!!!!!!!!
Speaking as someone who was serially raped beginning at age seven, I’m saying get yourself to some feminist counselling Alex before you meet someone like me who would as soon kill you as speak to you.
No does not mean “yes if you find the right spot and I relax.”
Anyone else wish they had Alex’s girlfriend’s email address? Hon, if you’re reading this, kick him to the curb right now.
I went through far too much “maybe I’ll learn to like it” in my own head to see another young woman suffer the same way. Love does not force you to do stuff you hate. That’s called rape, no matter what other four letter words he uses.
I hope I wasn’t being offensive with the term ‘warming her up,” I meant it in the most sarcastic tone, I just though I was overusing punctuation, and thought that it was aesthetically better to let the absurdity of the words speak rather than let my propensity for quotation marks, parentheses, and other such crutches overwhelm my comment.
Gawd, I’m cringing here reading about “warming her up.” You now what that translates to?
Poking and prodding the hell out of her like a computer hacker who electronically throws the entire dictionary at the password prompt on the off chance that one of the words will get in. *poke* Nope, that doesn’t work. *poke* How about this? *poke* No. *poke* Not there, either. *poke* Jesus, what the fuck’s WRONG with this stupid thing?! *poke* *poke* *poke*
Enough of that, and your poor damned girlfriend is going to have developed fucking calluses on that cunt from this asshole continualy trying to pester it into letting him in — but he’s SURE that if he could jsut ram it in hard enough, it’d loosen everything up! You know, like reaming a starter hole for a drill bit!
*shakes head*
Sigh.
I am so reminded of my youth reading this. Not really wanting to have sex but thinking I was supposed to in the same way I’m supposed to floss my teeth. Thinking that the reasons why I did not want to were because I had psychological hang-ups.
Briefly, my sexual history went something like this:
As a small child, I witnessed my young cousin get molested by her father.
Also as a small child, a little neighbor girl of mine’s father was arrested for kiddie porn. They found pics of my little friend and her sister hidden underneath the carpet in his house.
As a teenager, I was a hospital volunteer and a janitor came up and groped me from behind.
I also learned that my father had been unfaithful to my mother.
As an 18 year old, I was raped by an acquintance. At the time, I had never heard of the term “date rape” and since I basically walked into this guys room with the audacity to think I could voluntarily leave any time I wanted, I figured it was my fault and I had hangups.
So, golly gee, did I have “hangups?” What woman actually is raised with a totally healthy attitude about sex? Is that even possible? Growing up in the patriarchy as a girl, you are bombarded with this crap. Why is it that when we react normally to these adverse messages about sex, we are the ones with the hangups, and the perpetraters are supposed to be the normal ones?
So, when it came to having sex with my first, coercive in that typical boys will be boys kind of way that is just so expected, I wasn’t really that into it. But I did it anyway, just because I thought I was supposed to and that is how you keep a boyfriend.
Was I attracted to him? Sure, on some physical level. Were parts of sex enjoyable? In a way, like in the same way a good massage is enjoyable. But for the most part I just kind of “was there” until it was over. Did I consent? Legally, sure. But actually, no. I was coerced.
It wasn’t until much later and a few boyfriends later that I learned what really wanting and consenting to sex was like. I had a boyfriend who did not pressure me, actually went out of his way to ensure that he didn’t pressure me. Sure, he was patriarchical in other ways, but he was aware of himself in the sex department.
After a long time, I trusted him enough to want to have sex with him on my own accord. So, I totally initiated it with him. I went after him sexually. It was SO MUCH BETTER this way. My god, I can’t even explain the differences between actually being a participating and willing party in your own sexual experience vs. just putting up with your boyfriend’s advances because you are supposed to. Sex with him was about ten thousand times better than with anyone else. Why? Because he didn’t tell me I had hang-ups, he didn’t expect anything from me, he didn’t coerce me. It was as equal as it probably can be in this whole patriarchal world we are subjected to.
Alex, dear. She does not have hang ups. She is responding normally to the crap she has to put up with. You are the one with hang-ups. She doesn’t want you. If she knew any better, she would know that you are a lousy sex partner. She’s just not that into you. She’s young and naive but hopefully soon, she’ll figure it out. If you want to help her, then you will stop coercing her. Stop trying to “get her to relax.” Stop trying to get her over her “hangups.” Stop rating her handjobs. Stop ignoring her pleas to “Stop.” Stop raping her.
Sorry for the long post, but Alex just icked me out big time.
Tigs, you weren’t being offensive — it’s an offensive subject, and that unfortunate term pretty much encapsulates it perfectly.
“Token resistance” strikes again!
Not to mention the real live fire-breathing feminists!
OK, I’m gonna take another side to this b/c everyone is already doing the whole Alex is raping his girlfriend thing.
The girlfriend claims not to like sex. The girlfriend also claims to kinda like it once she gets into it. She claims sex is dirty. So, it sounds to me like she is either seriously fucked up from family/religious upbringing and wants absolutely NO responsibility for sex. In other words, she wants Alex to initiate it and is just protesting to show she’s a good girl and doesn’t really want it. That’s possible, but since her ideas of sex are so fucked up, she might not even be aware of it. And who wants to be with someone who plays games that they aren’t even cognizant of?
Or, she’s been molested or abused (my money is on the military father) and will likely never get to the point of liking sex without some serious therapy. This is really fucking sad just because it’s so common. I’ve known women who were molested, and I’ve known men who were dating/married to these women. It’s a sad state all around. Hetero sex is already hard enough with the whole patriarchy thing. When you add another disturbing element, it becomes a tragedy.
So, my first thought when I read Alex’s letter was not He’s raping her, but Why the hell is he still dating her? For both their sakes, they need to be apart. Apparently, the girlfriend isn’t strong enough to break off the relationship (another clue that she was probably molested). So, Alex needs to dump her. He’s gonna be miserable trying to wheedle sex out of an unwilling participant.
“Love does not force you to do stuff you hate. That’s called rape, no matter what other four letter words he uses.”
Bird could you cut this to seven words so we can get the T-shirt order out by 5 p.m.?
LMYC said:
Yeah. She prefers to get sexed by someone who isn’t you. Jeez, what a prude.
Leave her goddamned vagina the hell alone. It doesn’t like you. That’s why it doesn’t want to come out and play.
You’re assuming it’s personal, when in fact she may prefer not to get sexed by anyone at all. Now, from the perspective of what Alex should do, this is pretty much a moot point. But on the other hand, I think it’s simplistic to assume that her lack of interest in sex is Alex’s fault in the first place, as LMYC’s comment implies.
I myself have never been much interested in having sex with other people, but living under the oppressive patriarchial regime, I was fully 30 years old before I realized I could really just “opt out.” During most of my 20s I didn’t want to have sex, but I wanted to want to have sex, so I often agreed to have sex even though I didn’t have any interest in doing so. I even went to doctors, counselors, psychologists, trying to understand what was wrong with me and how to fix it.
Of course, now I realize that there is nothing wrong with me at all. The patriarchy defines an individual woman’s lack of interest in sex as a problem insofar as it makes her unavailable as a sperm receptacle. Ironically, I suspect that in many cases it is also the black patriarchal ooze infesting every crevice of our culture that causes this lack of interest in the first place. Although Alex clearly needs to stop violating this woman, I have to say that I blame the patriarchy more than I blame him.
As to why they insist on writing to you, it’s probably a combination of thinking that a dyke would be able to sympathizae with their annoyance at not getting the pussy they feel they deserve (sort of the reverse of a fag hag only they’re too stupid to know that dykes don’t WANT fag hags), plus a sort of flasher mentality. They flashed the dyke! Whee! They’re, like, daring! Or something. Like a little kid ringing your doorbell and running off.
No, I think it’s because at some level they realize Twisty is going to rip them a new one, yet they really do think they are nice guys, so maybe, just maybe, she’ll actually tell them they’re not so bad, or at least offer them some sort of “It’s not entirely your fault” consolation prize as they get the arse-chewing they know they deserve.
If you’ve ever read advice columnists or listened to/watched a “relationship” talk show (usually hosted by some flavor of “Dr.”), you see the same phenomenon. Otherwise intelligent people admit to doing the most outrageous things, and then haplessly ask the doc, “What should I do?” or worse, “Is this really wrong?”
Like them, I am sure Alex already knew that Twisty was going to flay him. He was probably hoping she’d do it in a manner suggesting he’s redeemable, and that thus he could reassure himself that he is a flawed person, but hey, he went to Doctor Twisty for some Tough Love, so that proves he’s serious about improving himself, right?
Dear Alex,
Your girlfriend’s body does not exist for your purposes, but for hers. Why would you do something to her body that only you are enjoying?
You say “once things get going, she enjoys herself pretty well.” So she is not enjoying herself until “things get going”? In order to get things going, you have to make her uncomfortable? Maybe even hurt her?
Your girlfriend seems to have some serious issues, and she should probably get help. But Alex, know this: You are not helping. What you are doing to her is not helping her, but hurting her. Every time you make her uncomfortable in pursuit of sexual grafitication, you are hurting her. Every time.
Bear these things in mind. Stop hurting her.
Sincerely yours,
Bitey
I’m so tired of how pop psychology — and even “real” psychology — has let everyone know that the REAL reason women don’t want to have sex with you is because they’re hung up about sex, so your job, as a good man, is to get them to get over their “hang-ups” and learn to enjoy sex. With you, of course. Because you’re not just their lover, but you’re their therapist.
Igloo, I do indeed stand corrected and should have thought that one through far better, seeing as how I am also possessed of a cervix that’s a happy introvert. Mea definitely culpa.
All y’all making excuses for him JUST STOP. Most serial rapists and pedophiles have been excused and coddled and eumphemized all their lives.
He isn’t hurting her, he’s raping her.
LMYC is my favorite blamer.
Why is it that when we react normally to these adverse
messages about sex, we are the ones with the hangups, and the
perpetraters are supposed to be the normal ones?
ZOMFG Lisa, WORD WORD WORD.
I cannot stomach it when people say things like “But you can’t let that put you off sex!”
Well, WHY THE FUCK NOT?! Getting my ass burnt would put me off sitting on a stove, too! What, is the world gonna crack in half if we DON’T wind up letting SOMEBODY into our cunts — a guy, of course, but if not a woman so at least the guys can whack off thinking about us?
To mention Igloo’s post again — this is part of what I should have thought of before I posted that first response. She may not be into you, she may want something else, she may NEED something else … or she may just decide to wash her hands of the whole fucking thing because the price is too high and frankly, the payoff is negligible.
Or maybe she’s gay? I realise that’s possibly a bit glib, but it’s not uncommon for women to try and toe the ol’ hetero line for as long as they can (fool themselves), esp. if they come from a “traditional” family background. That really was the first thing I thought of.
On another note, is there a women out there who doesn’t have Daddy issues? Mine’s about as good as it gets, a feminist ally and everything, so of course, no one’s ever going to measure up.
I agree with Marcy 100%. That’s just a miserable situation all the way around. IBTP more than I blame Alex (ack, I’m dating an Alex, so reading this made me cringe a little!) who clearly wants to do the right thing and even wrote to Twisty knowing he’d get his ass handed to him. Now, that does NOT excuse Alex pushing the sex issue, which I think is inexcusable. I just don’t think pushing it’s going to get either of them what they want or need.
P.S. Maybe it has nothing to do with Alex’s skillz or with her scary neocon parents or whatever–maybe she’s asexual and hasn’t figured it out yet.
During most of my 20s I didn’t want to have sex, but I wanted to want to have sex, so I often agreed to have sex even though I didn’t have any interest in doing so.
Yes.
Alex, do you realize how emotionally draining not wanting to (or wanting to but cannot) have sex is even with an understanding partner? Do you understand the pressure women put upon themselves just to be loved and accepted, which of course they have been conditioned to believe can only happen when they’re happily fucking their dudes? Now think about how awful it is when the one person who claims to “love” you incessantly prods you into conforming to the sex acts you already despise or feel inadequate at. Imagine the stress.
What’s with the “Little Alex should demand that girlfriend get help” crap? She doesn’t need any help that dumping his chump ass wouldn’t accomplish. It thoroughly chaps the Twisty hide when the completely understandable lack of interest in getting pronged by some delusional dude gets pathologized.
There’s nothing wrong with women who don’t want to fuck their boyfriends. They just don’t want to fuck their boyfriends. So the fuck what? It’s just sex, for chrissake. It’s not like lives are at stake. There’s other shit people can do together. Go get some fucking sushi. Go fishing. Play a hand of gin. Jesus fucking christ.
Now maybe some of you are responding to what has been postulated as girlfriend’s fucked-up childhood. You think maybe she needs help getting over that. Well, maybe a little chitchat with a rape counselor wouldn’t hurt her, what with the self-loathing and all, but if the object is to “fix” her sex drive, again I say P.U.
Girlfriend should just read some feminist blogs. After she puts about 647 miles between herself and Little Alex.
There seems to be a lot of apologist for rapist who “didn’t really mean to rape” on the web. A lot of it starts with “maybe he thought she’d like” or “she only complained after” as if theres a difference between raping and making a woman have sex with you. Some come from the rape apologists that moderators and bloggers don’t want to kick out for some reason, others from actual women.
Actually “Marcy”, we don’t know what the “girlfriend” says. We’ve heard what Alex says she said, thinks, feels, wants. It’s the same old shit from one rapist after another.
We have the rapist’s take. Go ahead and read Google news today. I guarantee you’ll find more than one version of Alex-speak as some rapist tells the judge he was helping her, she liked it when we got going. Etc. Puke.
“She doesn’t need any help that dumping his chump ass wouldn’t accomplish.”
I, for one, needed help before I could dump my chump.
Meredith-what does that mean that you are dating “an alex?” That scares the crap out of me. Are you ok?
Any man who wants to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with them, is creepy. Any man who forces her to do things she doesn’t want to do is a rapist. Alex is a creepy rapist. Nuff said.
I don’t think we can take anything Alex says about his girlfriend as reality. She may have some issues, she may not. Either way, he is a creepy rapist.
I can relate to the whole “I wish I wanted to have sex more often because it seems like most people want to have sex a lot and I don’t so there must be something screwed up about me even though I’m not unhappy with the amount of sex I have.”
Twisty, I’ve been telling everyone “sushi, not sex” for as long as I can remember but nobody ever listens to me.
Make dinner, not “love.”
First off - I agree that Alex is raping his girlfriend.
Personally I think his girlfriend probably needs some help because she’s continuing to date someone who rapes her on a semi-regular basis, not because she doesn’t want to have sex with him. Even if she broke up with him today its probably done some damage. Plus, there are plenty more guys out there who do this stuff so chances are she’ll run into another one.
It’s interesting though that he doesn’t already know this. I’ve seen this phenomena on many occasions - seems to be a real problem. Its simultaneously surprising and not surprising at all. It seems to be really hard for men to grasp that women are people too, yet somehow it always surprises me.
A lot of it starts with “maybe he
thought she’d like” or “she only complained after” as if theres a …
… mystery to realizing whether a woman is enthusiastically consenting or just nervously going along because she figures she has no other options.
And if you’re response to reading that is, “Hey, man if she let me without screaming and clawing my face, that’ll count in court!” then you are a rapist. You should not have to WONDER if she wants it or not. If you doubt she wants it, I don’t care if the fine print lets you off with a wrist-slap.
Jesus, how miserable an experience in general is sex with men (don’t answer that) that “she didn’t shoot me when I asked her” counts as “enthusiastic consent?” Is that literally as good as consent gets? Christ. Either men suck in bed, or being in bed with men sucks period. I mean, if only the 0.000000000062% percent of women who claim to be fulfilled by charging money for sex can claim that het sex is fun, then … well, I’ve really gotta wonder just how “natural” this drive is.
Again, whacks self on head with Igloo’s squeaky hammer …
I’d just like to chime in here with a heads-up to C.C. Cake, in that I’m a terra survivor with some long-term impairment issues (not disability) of my own. Wanting to do the heteronormative nasty and not being able to raises so many issues that it’s truly an incredible mind-flip, and in my (to be taken with a grain-of-salt, as it’s dudely, and my partner is a straight woman) experience, one of the worst, most insidious aspects of het-normative “sex” as we learn it is the conscious devaluation of erogenous, NON-genital touching. Sexualizing that, in this culture, is definitely not heteronormative, although it may be hetero. I realize that this is one of those ex-cathedra from-on-high dudely interventions so frowned upon here, but kudos to you for developing such a solid relationship that the very labeling of your variations as “work-arounds” would be derisory.
IBTP: “Come for the blaming, stay for the sex advice.”
It seems to be really hard for men to grasp that –
– begrudgingly agreeing to something after getting pestered relentlessly is not the same as enthusiastic consent.
Sorry, fuckwads. If you’re clinging to the fine print on this one, you’re a rapist.
LMYC,
how miserable an experience in general is sex with men (don’t answer that)
Eh, I’m gonna. I’m as hetero as they come, and I’m pretty underwhelmed by sex most of the time. I would blame the patriarchy, but I’m not even sure where to start with this one. Porn gives men funny (read: crazy) ideas, but that can’t be all of it. Bah.
I just can’t STFU today, can I?
There’s also the issue that, if you’ere waiting until you’re trying to get her clothes off before you’re thinknig about hwo to make sex good for her, you’re waiting too long and screwing it up. You want to make your girlfriend feel a bit sexier toward you? Vote Democrat, if you absolutely must participate in the farce that is modern American voting. Donate money to women’s shelters. Speak up when you see insulting things — and FUCKING MEAN IT. Don’t do it because you’re trying to get her approval so shell let you bone her.
Whoops, there goes that Catch-22, huh? You mean we have to be SINCERE?! Oh, maaaaaaaan!
Yes, you do. You do have to be sincere. Tough shit. You have to honestly give a crap about her as other than the annoying and inconvenient owner of the gash you’re trying to get into.
And if you’re acting like an asshole, not doing shit around the house, ignoring her, belittling her ambitions, not listening to her when she’s talking, watching porn at all, talking shit about women, acting like a macho dickhead around your buddies … well then. She’s not gonna want to fuck you no matter how many sex manuals you read.
“Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have fingered her and she appears to have enjoyed it,”
APPEARS. As in, he hasn’t asked her if she enjoys it. She hasn’t told him she enjoys it. He just assumes that her decision to stop struggling and lie there quietly means that his magical man hands are working their magical man magic once again. Boy, chalk one up for Nonconsensual Fucking As A Public Service.
“Given that she does start enjoying herself once she relaxes, are her early protests actual protests, or the voice of psychological hang-ups?”
Evidently in Alex’s world a protest without a Good Reason that passes the magical man reason-o-meter isn’t a real protest.
So what if she’s protesting because of what are (questionably) called “psychological hang-ups?” SHE’S PROTESTING! End of story! He doesn’t get to analyze the cause of the protest, then judge it as real or not-real!
I’m going to go throw up now–like so many others who’ve commented, I’ve dated this guy. I hope his girlfriend gets smart sooner than I did.
I know I’m not covering any new ground here (which is why I usually refrain from commenting), but on this one I just had to pipe up.
Alex … who clearly wants to do the right thing
Well, to me his whole speel is not coming across as particularly sincere. Bit of an element of “ha ha let’s wind up the evil feminists” in there I think.
And for more evidence (not that we need it) of the disgusting entitled attitude that men have towards to women’s bodies:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=3162120&page=1
“A woman who had sex with her boyfriend’s brother in her darkened room late one night claimed she was raped, saying the man tricked her into the act by impersonating her boyfriend.
But Massachusetts’ Supreme Judicial Court disagreed Thursday, citing a half-century-old state law that says it is not rape when consent to sexual intercourse is obtained through fraud or deceit.”
“Fraudulently obtaining consent to sexual intercourse does not constitute rape as defined in our statute,” the court said.”
Plently of gag-worthy material in the comments as well.
Here’s a question for the guys to ponder: if you didn’t think you had a chance of getting into her cunt, would you give a damn about her life at all?
Would you even want to sit there and
put up with her whining about her stupid fucknig problemslisten to her telling you about her day?I mean, if sex were entirely off the radar … would you care whether she lived or died?
If she only matters to you because you think you might get into her cunt, then you have no business getting in there anyhow.
She’s told me that she generally has no desire to initiate sex, but once things get going, she enjoys herself pretty well…
Translates as, once I start fucking her she gets all quiet and stops her bitching. Hey, Alex, if she enjoyed it she’d initiate it, you fucking moron. If I really enjoy ice cream, I’m going to suggest a walk to Ben and Jerry’s. You won’t have to drag me there and shove the cone in my mouth. Fuckwit.
Brilliant analogy zofia!
You know, I’m reading all this and thinking of the typical sex-poz response to it, asked in ALL goddamned seriousness:
“Do you know where your clitoris is?”
Oh, for fuck’s SAKE. I strongly suspect we all did our time squatting over a compact mirror — you know what? The problem wasn’t up there.
Wanting to do the heteronormative nasty and not being able to raises so many issues that it’s truly an incredible mind-flip… [K]udos to you for developing such a solid relationship that the very labeling of your variations as “work-arounds†would be derisory.
Thank you, Eurosabra. And yes, the heteronormative, ablist sexpectations of the patriarchy do fuck with the mind. To do this day — even though I know better — I still will occasionally get horribly emotional after my partner and I have “our sex,” because I become extremely concerned that it wasn’t as good for him as it was for me or that he’s just putting up with it. There’s no part of our relationship that would cause me to believe this, but I’m tangled in society’s sexpectations and my own insecurities generated by the former.
LMYC: totally bang on. Seems to me if Alex actually cared about her, he wouldn’t pester her for sex ever, let alone coerce her. If that meant never having sex, then that’s just one of those things.
and
HA! And the Common Sense Award goes to: LMYC. Love love love it, please do not STFU.
While many have made good points about various things, I just can’t get past the fact that Alex sent this graphic bullshit about fingering his crappy-hand-job-giving f*cked up girlfriend to Twisty, who is NOT a sex columnist, HELLO.
That tells me everything I need to know about Alex.
And that’s not meant to sound patronizing of Twisty’s demonstrated ability to neatly handle him, or to loose an entire posse on his exhibitionist, invasive, creepy ass, it’s just to reiterate my earlier WTF? Smackdown to Alex for sending it in the first place to get rocks off via the Scary Feminist, except that I suspect that’s what gets his rocks off, so I go back to my earlier oh-so-articulate eeeww.
I can’t even keep up with LMYC today to praise her awesomeness.
When I was younger I had BFs who, like Alex, complained that I never initiated and it made me seem uninterested.
Guess what? If I did try initiating with these same guys, they would always say no, and say it with a certain pleased expression to boot. And it’s not that I was picking inconvenient times or places or some mind-game like that.
I’d say it’s more that I was accurately reading the cues which told me that they wanted sex to be on their terms, and that it would be a waste of time for me to act like it was possible that it could happen on my terms once in a while.
Once, and only once, one of these guys said yes, but that lead to sex that was far more rape-like than any other time with him. After all, if I wanted it at all, than surely that meant what I wanted was insta-dick, like those do-me-now sexbots in the pornos, and none of the usual “rules” need apply.
This is how you learn to play stupid games and take a really passive approach to the whole deal even if you didn’t start out that way. Could well be where Alex’s GF is at.
Even if is, though, there’s too much water under the bridge to talk that one through now, so I agree w/ everybody else that they need to take a break. Ten years or so might be enough.
Ah, Twisty, this one hits close to home. I’m not too far past Alex and his girlfriend’s age and jeebus… Alex is not a unique case. My high school and college boyfriends would consistently push just past the point where I started saying no. Thank god I developed a backbone early on.
Alex’s actions are a direct result of the patriarchical expectations of hetero sex– (my fave explanation is Jill’s here) wherin the girl does not initiate, and is not supposed to even enjoy sex for most of it. The old saw about women needing more foreplay, etc, just makes guys try for longer when we’re not interested and yet they believe they’re doing the ‘right thing’ in taking their time. Boys are taught that they’re supposed to convince the girl to have sex, so this kind of ‘prodding’ is considered more of simply an annoying nag, rather than actual forceful rape.
Alex’s girlfriend may have normal “I’m not ready yet” hangups or she may have more serious issues. Who knows. But whichever one it is, Alex should back the fuck off. When she ‘enjoys’ parts of it… that’s not enough to make the experience worthwhile for her, and it’s definitely not going to make her a sex-positive convert even if you happen to hit her clit the right way one or two times.
Both of them need some counseling… Alex to figure out how to encourage a girl to want him without forcing her and his girlfriend to either a) figure out what her ‘hangups’ are or b) grow a stronger backbone so she can raise holy hell next time Alex or another dude tries this shit on her.
Hey, there. I just got back and read the e-mail, and I suppose this is something like the response I expected. I read about a third of the comments, but I see a couple of themes cropping up, so if this comment seems incomplete, sorry.
I guess the first thing I wanted to say is that I was not e-mailing Twisty for some kind of prurient kick. I don’t feel comfortable talking to anyone I know in real life about this, so I figured as long as I was going to go for brutal honesty, I may as well aim for the most hostile response I can get.
So it’s about ten minutes since I finished that last paragraph and what’s been running through my head has sounded more like hollow rationalizations. I guess an earlier commenter was right that I needed someone else to tell me that I’m a horrible bastard, so. Thanks for your time and input.
PS hitting a button titled ‘blame’ seems singularly inappropriate right now. Ugh.
A thought for all the menz out there. Did you ever think of, I don’t know, stopping to ask what she wants first? I mean, if you’re concerned about your nice-guy image and don’t want to be called a rapist, how about ensuring you have clear consent first? When I say stop, I mean actually stop touching her, too, look her in the eyes, and ask her “Do you want to have sex?” (or an equally unequivocal variation).
I almost fell over when my boyfriend asked me that the first time we had sex: what does he mean, do you really want to do this? OMG, he’s looking for actual, literal consent! (I can say without a doubt that this is one of the reasons he’s still around.)
And don’t give me that mood-killer crap. I thought you guys wanted to know how much women wanted you—isn’t having her say “Yes, I’d like that” sort of along those lines? Or are you actually scared she’ll say “no” and show you up for the rapist you’re pretending not to be?
You didn’t need someone to tell you you’re a horrible bastard, you needed to be told that your actions towards your girlfriend are wrong, Alex, and you should stop at once. Are you going to do that?
You also need to get rid of the attitude that you should be able to have sex at all costs and that if your girlfriend isn’t interested there is something wrong with her and you should just be able to push past her objections. It’s not her that is the problem, it’s your attitude that’s the problem.
And herein lies the rub.
Twisty, I tried calling the 1-800-GROW-UP number for information. I couldn’t get through, though. It turns out the number had to be changed to 1-800-GROW-UP-FUCKWAD! I guess Alex must have called the first number.
Here’s a certified sex counselor who could tell her what *her* hangups are. Klein is a friend of Marc Randazza, so lately banned but putrifying in the Vile thread:
http://tinyurl.com/2tlp29
http://nopornnorthampton.org/2007/03/09/sex-therapist-
marty-klein-wants-you-to-believe-porn-is-harmless.aspx
“Many adult industry lawyers like Marc Randazza are not content to defend their clients on narrow constitutional grounds. They could say, for example, that yes this material is reprehensible but we must protect it so that more worthy speech will not be threatened. Instead, they apparently want you to believe that porn and the lifestyles promoted by porn (bondage, sadomasochism, swinging, casual sex) are actually liberating and good for you.”
And don’t you dare go tell her that it’s her responsibility to ‘fix’ you.
Ok Alex, so what are you going to do about it?
Ai ai ai. It seems like there’s been some discussion recently, by feminist-ally men, of their natural role as ambassadors to the non-FA men of the world. What’s interesting to me is that the non-FA men of the world don’t seem to think that’s the natural role. I guess I don’t understand why Alex thought of writing to either Amanda or Twisty, and especially why he then chose the deeper end of the girl-cooty pool. Actually, wait, a glimmer of understanding is appearing — a feminist-ally man might be able to help him understand better, and might be more patient, but only a woman can magically absolve him of crimes towards womanhood. It all makes sense now.
Anyway, what is interesting about this whole schmozzle is that if Alex is actually reading all this, regardless of whether he internalizes it, he will actually get someone telling him he’s an ass and/or bad in bed. I don’t think the ex-boyfriends of the world get that very reliably. As someone said above, het women often don’t know the sex they’re getting is crappy, or that they can live a sex-free life without God smiting them, or that something better exists. I really wish my ex-husband knew that I don’t actually have a tiny sex drive, that he actually wasn’t great in bed, that not all men check out emotionally during sex, and that I was rolling my eyes at the ceiling fairly regularly. Really, it would be great if he knew. But since I didn’t realize how shitty that sex was until I had had sex with someone else, it really wasn’t feasible to tell him.
What the freaking hell?!? If one or both of a pairing isn’t into it, do something else. I like sex, it can be great when both partners are into it but it is definitely not an activity that can be done successfully without full participation. Otherwise it is just abusive to insist.
What is with the dude belief that you can fix a “sexual hang-up” with repeated attempts at bad sex? Bad sex and sexual education (or none) is what causes “hang-ups” in the first place. Nothing screams that the sex isn’t working than not wanting to do it.
My advice, if he has to stay in her life (and I don’t think that is wise) then he needs to give up on a sexual relationship. Find common interests, do activities that you both like and stay out of hormone land.
Dear Alex, buy yourself a bottle of Astroglide and a fur-lined mitten. I had too many experiences with asshats like you to have any patience with or sympathy for you. And look up “consensual” in the dictionary.
Whoever said that sex with a guy is a whole lot of rubbing for not very much warmth was right. I would equate it with finding a dime in the parking lot. You can do so almost any day you choose, but is it really worth the time and the effort? Most days my answer is “probably not”.
LYMC: on your assessment of inclusion and activism - bloody *brilliant*. It wasn’t that long ago that a good friend of mine was raped by the co-chair of my local rape crisis action council. I keep trying to explain that yes, I *am* paranoid, and have very good reason to be, and am entirely ready to let go of my distrust once I am faced with solid and irrefutable evidence that my distrust is no longer necessary.
On Alex: if you wrote that in all seriousness, my guess would be that you have a predetermined idea of what rape looks like, and what you do with your gf doesn’t fit your pictures, but it does make you uncomfortable. Which it should, so I suppose I can congratulate you on having a vestige of an instinct for something other than violation. Please leave your gf alone, and stop raping her.
I sincerely agree that the woman described in Alex’s letter doesn’t need or deserve to be pathologized. And I certainly agree that choosing *not* to engage sexually with other humans is not a pathological choice.
It seems to me that if you’re not 100% positive that the sex you’re having is consensual, it probably isn’t. Even if you’ve just got shitty communication with your partner and whatever you’re doing is *actually* consensual, proceeding when you are asking yourself a question as serious as, “is this rape?†is just as bad as if it really was.
Exactly, how can anyone actually have sex while thinking “I wonder if they are really O.K. with this”. I know I couldn’t.
For Christ’s sake, child. You admit to pestering your GF into having sex that you know damned well she doesn’t want (no matter how painfully you squint at the fine print), and you write to a self-described radical lesbian feminist who runs a blog full of `em, and then say “I expected that,” when you get your ass handed to you.
Congratulations. You get to hand the dunce cap to someone else for a little while. Sheesh.
This asshole needs to learn not to disrespect people he’s asking for advice, either. Calling Twisty a firebreathing feminist isn’t respectful; it’s mocking. Methinks dipshit here might want a hostile response so he can feel all victimized and sensitive and shit.
It’s just sex, for chrissake. It’s not like lives are at stake. There’s other shit people can do together.
Yes yes yes. We pathologize women for not enthusiastically embracing every cock that comes their way because you-know-what wants the world to be arranged to convenicene the needs of penises. A male relative of mine and his partner recently had a baby. Some of my family are ever so sorry for this male relative because he didn’t want a baby. I say tough luck. He didn’t fall into her vagina trap he chose to fuck her. “But what was he supposed to do?” they whine incredulously. NOT FUCK HER.
Ginmar! Like, LJ Ginmar?
Attention men: When a woman says any variation on the word “stop,” you must cease any and all physical contact immediately, back away and say, “I’m sorry. I didn’t know I was making you uncomfortable.” Go ahead and deal with the fact that sex is now out of the question, especially sex at your urging.
If the woman responds in a pornified manner with a coquettish grin, pulls you close and says, “Oh, silly, I was just fooling around with you,” then you (a) have a responsibility to tell her how that’s a really fucked up thing to do without talking about that kind of kink play before anything gets started, and (b) get the fuck out of there. You’d be better off taking her initial message seriously than risking committing rape.
If the woman responds in any way excusing your behavior, because she has “hang ups” or is otherwise “getting over issues,” you must (a) continue to avoid any physical contact until she initiates it and (b) tell her that you will be doing so in order to avoid doing anything that makes her uncomfortable. It is your responsibility to respect whatever boundaries she sets, and any actions stretching, cajoling or otherwise attempting to cross those boundaries is rape.
The overwhelming cultural message to women is that we need to please others to be liked ourselves. It’s especially true that women are told that pleasing men sexually is the key to social success. So think for a moment how hard it must be for a woman to speak up to a man she otherwise likes and to say “stop it.” Think of the pressures on a woman to say “Yes,” to accede to the wishes of her partner, and think of how motherfucking uncomfortable she must be to overcome those pressures to come out and say “stop.” If a woman gets to “no” or “stop” or any similar expression, the only acceptable action, the only legal action, is to do exactly as she asks.
I think we’re being trolled and the post showing why is hanging in moderation.
A.Non, what do you mean? The only thing hanging in moderation is a charming communiqué from the irrepressible Brady Lord expressing his enthusiasm for my impending death from cancer.
Alex writes: I may as well aim for the most hostile response I can get.
And: Ugh.
I believe what you mean by “hangup” is that Girlfriend came of age in the known universe, which is patriarchal.
Furthermore, I protest your distinction of (radical) feminists as “fire-breathing” and “hostile.” Have you read the FAQ?
Finally, why do you labor under the assumption that someone who does not want to remove their clothing is sexually available to you (nevermind attractive)? And, I second buggle’s comment. If you “expected” this all along, whatchagonnadoaboutit?
“I don’t feel comfortable talking to anyone I know in real life about this”
Least of all your girlfriend, huh?
Panic, yes, that’s me.
Darn it! That’s what I get for doing my work instead of goofing off on the web. I miss all the fun blaming.
Nothing to add to all that the fine blamers have already said.
Blame on.
weeza, can I buy you a drink?
Alex, she doesn’t want to have sex with you. What part of that don’t you understand? Here’s your tube sock.
Gin, I think personally that’s why he wrote — he wanted to be an overt shithead, then get his ass jumped on, and then act like he TRIED to be a Nice Guy he really did! He even asked a feminist fro advice an’ stuff like dat adn they just YELED AT HIM!
So he’s the same asshole he always was, only now it’s Feminism’s Fault.
Alex,
“Crappy handjobs?” Come on! Imagine what she has to say about you and your skillz. After all, she doesn’t even want you touching her! (Clue stick, Alex: Some of us fake enjoyment so you’ll leave us alone that much sooner. It really works!)
Additionally, a body’s pleasure response is not always predicated on that person’s desire to engage in whatever activity.
Either way, Alex, you need to respect her enough to take what she says about her own wishes at face value and not less. The fact that you’re side-stepping what she actually verbalizes to second-guess her reasoning points directly to your lack of respect for her. You don’t *deserve* to touch her or any woman, ever. You are never entitled to her body. When she lets you touch her (with fully articulated consent), that is a *priviledge*. Bodily autonomy is one of the most basic human rights, and if you don’t actively respect her desire to use her body exclusively how she wants, when she wants, you are actively denying those human rights!
Alex, if a woman approaches your button-fly saying “Have sex with me,” it means that she wants to have sex with you.
If on the other hand she protests at your initiations to sex and gives crappy hand jobs after much cajoling, it means that she finds you sexually unappealing. It’s not a hang-up per se.
If you wish to know if you are raping her, please do ask her that very question.
Why not come back to this forum and let us know her answer?
Or better yet, why not invite her into this forum to speak her own mind if she so desires?
I was going to say that you pretty much told him everything I could ever hope to, but then you said this:
And then I started screaming “YES! YES! YES!”
On the inside. This is a very quiet suburb.
When did the word “prod” come into use in this context? That word should be exclusively reserved for livestock. Geez!
One more thing you need to remember, Alex. Girls talk. We talk about everything–including boyfriends and sex. Whatever is going on will be known by the women in your social circle. If you hope to have any chance with the other women in your social circle, you should watch how you treat your girlfriend.
Hey, Alex, if she enjoyed it she’d initiate it, you fucking moron.
well, to be fair, this isn’t strictly true. for example, if you only end up in bed when you’re whipped, you might *never* initiate sex even if you really like it. or the person for whom it is energizing (generally men, in my experience) is more likely to initiate action than the person for whom it *takes* energy (generally but not always women). this is a bit of a wiring thing, beyond just enjoyment. even if you’re talking about “initiation” that starts when you’re standing up, there are all kinds of personality issues (or even learned behaviors) that go into who tends to initiate, not strictly the absolute levels of enthusiasm that each person has for the act(s) in the abstract.
not to disagree with the rest of the tenor of the discussion, but I thought this point should be made.
acm
… for example, if you
only end up in bed when you’re whipped, you might *never* initiate
sex even if you really like it.
Indeed. If it’s always turned into a fucking chore, something that you have to get nagged into acquiescing to, chances are you will NEVER want to initiate it, because (speaking from experience here), the slightest little bit of interest is interpreted as YOU SAID YOU WANTED IT NOW I’M GOIN TO SUBJET YOU TO A BLIZZARD OF GRABS AND POKES HEY I THOUGHT YOU WANTED IT WHAt’S WRONG JESUS I CAN’T UNDERSTAND YOU!</