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May 15 2007

The Mandos Referendum

To blamers who frequent the I Blame the Patriarchy comments section, Mandos needs no introduction. He’s been posting here off and on for a couple of years, dancing the twinkletoe on the perilous precipice between gadfly and troll, making a nuisance of himself. Occasionally he drops in merely to deposit an ellipsis, but most often he can be found bloviating on senselessly fine points, niggling, needling, smirking and splitting hairs, with no clear motive beyond the desire to irritate, and all from a markedly non-feminist point of view. Whereupon the thread descends into a Mandos-is-a-troll trainwreck. Which is, I suppose, precisely his goal.

Most recently the aforementioned scenario transpired here. So many of your comments began focusing on the negative philosophic value of Mandos’ remarks that the time has come, alas, for action. I mean, it was cute the first 187 times it happened, but a jest’s prosperity lies in the ear, no? And I wonder if perhaps we aren’t all going a bit deaf.

So I came up with the Mandos Referendum. I put it up to you, the commentariat. His blogular status lives or dies by the votes in this thread. So what say you, blamers? Does he stay or does he go?

229 comments

  1. ashes

    voting peace out. sayonara mandos.

  2. justicewalks

    I vote to put him out on his ass. He adds nothing to the discussion.

  3. smm

    Ban him, then kill him.

    Seems appropriate

  4. MedeaOnCrack

    Out.

  5. Meredith

    Out. He derails the discussion every single time. If he actually had interesting points or knew when to stop picking, that would be one thing, but he has shown neither creativity nor restraint.

  6. LCforevah

    IBTP for my being too polite to ask for his banishment the first time he responded to one of my comments. I read his nonsense and said to myself WTF? But, since I’m only an apprentice blamer, I figured that it was too much to ask! …So, ban his ass… please!

  7. thebewilderness

    Banned, with oak leaf clusters.

  8. Kali

    Out!

  9. palinode

    I’m waiting to see which way Mandos falls on this one.

  10. LCforevah

    It’s not only that he derails every discussion he comments in, it’s that attitude that he’s teaching us all something we never knew before. Us widdle wadies need the dreat big Mandos to expwain the universe!

  11. Burrow

    Buh bye.

  12. ramou

    I vote to toss the Mandos.

  13. delphyne

    Bye, bye, Mandos.

    Unless of course he can learn how to blame the patriarchy. At this point it seems unlikely and he’d definitely need to take some time out to practice.

  14. lawbitch

    Out!

  15. Kwillz

    Now he’s trolling, soon he’ll be posting chain letters for YouTube.

    Ban.

  16. ms. jared

    good riddance!

  17. Jessant

    Bandizzle

  18. OM

    Buh bye, mandos.

  19. Sylvanite

    I dunno. Mandos can be irritating, but I don’t know about banning. Of course, I haven’t had an opportunity to read the thread he derailed. He’s usually way less disruptive than PZ Myers’ trolls, but again, I haven’t had an opportunity to read this latest outrage. I guess I’ll have to defer to the judgement of those who got to witness the whole trainwreck thing.

    He’s totally wrong about bees, though. I know that much.

  20. Pinko Punko

    I think he should stay. I think he falls on this side of concern troll, (the non concern troll side). This being said, for some reason I would feel better if TF made the decision rather than putting it up for a “vote” where we all know what the outcome would be. This strikes me as disingenuous, I guess. TF saying “my house, my rules”- I LOVE that. TF demurring to the purported will of the people maybe seems like Pilate washing his hands, NOT that Mandos is JC, Dead Roman Jewâ„¢. Even if Mandos can be infuriating, I do not think he is intellectually vacuous or disingenuous. To some he may appear nitpicky, but certain people (i.e. MANDOS) simply cannot deal with complicated arguments without breaking them down and examining the tiny pieces. I know in the end, it is TF’s house, TF’s rules, but if he gets the sword it should be TF slicing and dicing.

    I think Mandos can be helpful in some ways, if he represents the margins of acceptable dialogue, then perhaps it will be clear to others how they might proceed. Given that the post in question here was somewhat of a TF Revolution Molotov cocktail especiale, comments perhaps bearing that assertion out, I guess I am not surprised there was a discussion.

    Of course, I feel free to be told to “eat it” at anytime, but opinions were solicited, and God knows I have a bunch of ‘em lying around.

  21. LMYC

    Shitcan him.

  22. Conspiracy theorist

    longtime lurker here. My theory has always been that Mandos is a fictional character, as is our great hostess Twisty Faster, and that they are played BY THE SAME PERSON!

  23. mg_65

    I feel that I cannot make this decision without Mandos to guide me.

  24. MedeaOnCrack

    I suggest if Pinko Punko wants Mandos around, Pinko Punko invite Mandos on his/her blog. Then, when Pinko Punko wants rid of Mandos, we’ll vote on whether or not.

  25. MedeaOnCrack

    The other reason to vote OUT is Mandos’ duplicity and backstabbing of IBTP and its host on pro-porn blogs.

  26. Trout

    Thebewilderness,

    Shouldn’t that be Oaf-leaf clusters?

    (I really don’t care about Mandos, but I couldn’t resist the pun.)

  27. David K

    Delurking to comment for the first time ever. While thoughtful counterpoint can help develop ideas and arguments, Mandos contributes nothing constructive here. Good freakin bye. My only concern is that banning him is the height of validation elevating him to martyr. But yeah, gone is gone.

    While I’m here I just want to add that I love you and your blog, Twisty. The time I spend here is often the best part of my day.

    Relurking.

  28. thebewilderness

    Pinko,
    He is the very epitomy of disingenuous. Disingenuous r him. It is wat he does and who he is.
    If ballot box stuffing is permitted I shall vote a second time not to be exposed to Mandos self absorbed derailments.

  29. kiki

    ¡Adios pendejo!

  30. Cannibal_Femme

    While Pinko Punko makes some (as-usual) excellent points, I was a careful reader of the latest trainwreck, and in my opinion Mandos contributed nothing useful, and did seem to go out of his way in an effort to frustrate a bunch of people who didn’t exactly seem in need of more frustratin’. Mandos himself made the point that this blog is not intended to be a place where we come to ‘be agreed with’, but I feel like it must be argued that solidarity is, for me at least, a big part of why I not only read here, but feel moved to speak up.

    No, I don’t come here to be agreed with. But I do come here to listen to and talk to some ‘kindred spirits’, for lack of a better term–and Mandos, I can easily say, has never struck me as kin of mine, save in the way that he’s terribly annoying.

    I vote for banning.

    Just please don’t kick out Norbizness.

  31. mi-voz

    In favor of the ban.

  32. Catherine Martell

    Hmm. I don’t usually think he’s that offensive, and I don’t mind opposing points of view as long as they come from a thinking perspective. Sometimes, his do. I also don’t mind there being an IBTP Court Jester. The rest of the time, he’s that, and harmless.

    But he’s been a right eejit on that rape law thread: throwing his weight around, getting personal with his attacks, pulling rank, disrupting the discussion, talking a lot about himself, and generally occupying a great deal of space with his puffed-up masculine entitlement.

    Kind of bored with him now. Sorry, Mandos – I might have stood up for you before. As it is, I thirty-something the shitcanning.

  33. lawbitch

    I’d like to second that approval of Norbizness. I like his blog. He’s funny and has puppies. Plus, I’ve been in love with him ever since I saw his cute adolescent pic.

  34. Pinko Punko

    Mandos does comment on my bloggo, but we’re currently making fun of NASCAR trolls right now, so that is neither here nor there, but I appreciate the sentiment. I’ll put you down for one vote in favor of Mandos shit-disturbing on 3B.

    There are no free speech arguments here (meaning I don’t think “free speech” is relevant to this discussion), and I am massively aware that there is a huge benefit for totally dick free space to do advanced patriarchy blaming. My reading of Mandos is that he accepts the existence of Patriarchy. However, in fairness to the “stab in the back” doctrine, I must admit to sharing occasional friendly e-mails in the past with an unnamed critic of this blog, but we were talking about 80s music I think. When the tribunal comes for me, I won’t be able to deny it.

    Blame on

  35. thebewilderness

    trout,
    I stand corrected, it should indeed be ‘Banned with oaf leaf clusters’.

  36. MedeaOnCrack

    Ahh Pinko Punko good try. You just ended up smearing yourself though, not me.

  37. mustelid

    Out.

  38. MedeaOnCrack

    There was so much potential in that rape thread, so many good thinkers and IBTP writers and they never got to talk about the subject. Mandos was the subject and that’s what he always does.

    This act of his, it’s been going on for too long. Way too long.

    Yeh definitely keep TP and Norbizness.

  39. Pinko Punko

    I wasn’t trying to smear you, MoC, I thought we were being lighthearted with Mandos’ fate, being in our hands (I think I may pun here). I like Catherine’s take on the matter (meaning I think she has elucidated some of my feelings in a more articulate way that I am currently capable), perhaps a “time out” is in order? I only had time to skim the long thread, and it does appear that Mandos enjoys arguing with 50 people at once, give him demerits or something.

  40. MedeaOnCrack

    On the other hand I do vote to keep you PP. I visited your blog the other day and laughed myself silly.

  41. B. Dagger Lee

    What an interesting question!

    You know, it was ginmar’s relentless pursuit of trolls over at Feministe that made me seethe reasons not to countenance the seemingly dispassionate, detached, “civilized” ones.

    As the world’s fifth or sixth greatest mind in neuroscience, I’ll say this: it seems clear from the reading I’ve done that our emotions are integral forces in our nervous systems and are advantageous bundles or systems of traits. There are good reasons why we have them.

    As you point out on the prior post, the system of dominance leads to insanity. One of the forms it takes is the old, literal, I-am-just-being-logical-and-pointing-out-the-holes-and-fallacies-in-your-argument. It is a form of insanity because morality and ethics are weighted and parsed by our emotions and our feelings about our experiences, and should, if one is being real come honestly and with acknowledgement into any discussion of almost any issue.

    A real man, here on planet Playboy Warrior, is allowed to feel satisfaction at the exercise of power, anger, and sexual feelings in the thrall of dominating a woman, child or another man. Or what we call masculinity, as a concept lumping it all together. Other emotions as well as an iceberg-sized amount of the aforementioned are not supposed to be recognized, acknowledged or talked about because only pussies and women do that or are that.

    I had a girlfriend who was a philosophy grad student (analytic, not continental) and she adopted this form of argument, and it took me a long time to recognize that it was a form of bad faith, since there was always a big amount of anger, aggression, insecurity and other feelings going on underneath. I’m a big old pomo homo, but “bad faith” is a term that I’m holding on to.

    Bad faith is composed of lying to oneself and unconsciousness in varying portions, I would suspect.

    I have no doubt that Mandos is in bad faith about his motivations about being here, although he may well be immature, an aspie, a guy who has never lived in intimacy with a woman, whatever, I don’t know, I don’t particularly care.

    That said, I think apologies and statements along the lines of “I believe in your feminist project, I think women have a fucking raw deal, and I’m learning a lot that I will try my best to implement,”—such statements go a long way, and have occurred among the women here, among men who’ve blundered onto here and just blundered here.

    If he wants to say something along those lines, I say let him stay. But he doesn’t bug me the way he bugs other women, so you know, if a preponderence of women wanted him gone, that would be fine with me.

    AND THE WHOLE THING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FUCKING FIRST AMENDMENT. So can we not even talk about that?

    yrs, BDL

  42. Pinko Punko

    I guess I felt that the IBTP brain trust was contributing to that post even if they had to do so by arguing with Mandos. The argument may have been non-productive as it relates to Mandos’ thinking, but I think others reading the thread will see a lot of thought going into responses. While not optimal I can’t describe it as a loss. The question is if it so much less optimal than a particular threshhold, then yeah he would have to go.

  43. Bonnie

    “1. I am usually careful not to trash as such, but I do provoke them in order to see what kind of an entertaining flamewar I can start.”

    Out.

    MonkTroll, too.

  44. cypress

    Out.

    Mandos has said all it will take is a request from Twisty for an end to Mandosian posts, if that turns out not to be the case and the IP address comes up again, banning will be appropriate.

  45. LMYC

    I don’t see “let him stay.” These guys are insincerity and disingenuousness combined — he’s known thus far precisely how to calculate and manipulate his words so as to remain juuuuuuust to one side of the line where we’d finaly wake the FUCK UP and broom him. Why give him an out — “If you just recite this magic phrase, all will be forgiven.” Bullshit. He knows damned well what he’s doing.

    And I’m sorry but this: I thought we were being lighthearted with Mandos’ fate has just got to GO. What the hell are we doing? Putting him in jail? Shooting him? Throwing him off a bridge? What?

    Christ! We are WOMEN, so we’re so fucking anxious that we not actually take ACTION, even if that action doesn’t actually have ANY PHYSICAL EXISTENCE IN THE WORLD WHATSOEVER.

    SCREW that. A convention of molecular biologists is not required to have one intelligent design weenie hanging around so they can prove they have the right to have a space for themselves, and neither do we.

    Can you imagine a gruop of ANY other people on the PLANET so timid about merely asking someone to leave a NONPHYSICAL space? And yes, I mean that TIMID. That SOB has been fucking coddled from the getgo, endlessly tolerated like every fucking asshole BF and husband ever was. But he’s not that bad, but he has his nice points, but he only hits me when he’s drunk, but I can help him, butI can save him, but he’s not as bad as some others. FUCK that noise — not only do I want him gone, but I want a giant mechanical ape hand to pop out of the screen, pick him up and carry him to the top of the Empire State Building, and drop him off the side.

  46. LMYC

    RE Bonnie’s post: holy FUCKING HELL, people. If a male can speak trash like that and be fucking tolerated on a radical feminist blog, then I’m going to go demand that the NAACP allow klan members.

  47. Pinko Punko

    BDL,

    We had a troll once at 3B who actually I think did fall into the category of some form of autism (literal to the point of words being meaningless, as they have no relation to and shared reality or empathy at all) and he was impossible to communicate with to the point where I was enraged at his obstinacy and could not even think. We also have a commenter/poster at 3B who is more in line with Mandos (incredibly “logical” and very “literal”)- for some reason I can discern a difference between the two, where one is insufferable and the other an asset to our community. I do not often have to argue with the other, and perhaps this is the reason I enjoy it.

    MoC- if I can occasionally make someone smile amidst the constant reminders of shit and pain we deal with- it makes me feel good.

    That being said, Norbiz has to go, he does his version of his shtick way better than I do.

  48. Suzanne

    I think a trip to a warm, cozy Banananation sounds great for Mandos.

  49. LMYC

    This:

    “1. I am usually careful not to trash as such, but I do provoke
    them in order to see what kind of an entertaining flamewar I can
    start.”

    is not only not an asset to this community, it’s not even an asset to planet Earth. Beyond being biodegradable.

  50. teffie-phd

    did you ban him from this discussion?

    comments do have their own life outside the post, but I find myself not scrolling down after Mandos speaks. That means I’m probably missing good stuff for blaming.

    so ban him.

  51. Repenting

    Mandos is a troll. But he’s OUR troll, and if we kick him we’ll just get something worse. All of my opinions are completely opposite to his, but I don’t mind having him around to voice the opposing argument. There will always be menz violating our forums with their bullshit arguments, but Mandos is very good at articulating the inner justifications of a mind tweaked out on patriarchy.

  52. Pinko Punko

    LMYC- if he said that, then he goes.

  53. B. Dagger Lee

    “…that made me SEE the reasons…” not seethe. Fuck me.

  54. Pinko Punko

    Sigh. I am out of the discussion now, I just want to see some good “banning” puns. I am going to ask Mandos to specifically explain to me why he wrote what LMYC posted. I won’t report back on it, but I do want to hear it. I feel a little bit silly now. I’m not sure if that statement is just boasting to feel loved by some crowd, but it sure makes me look like a dumbass.

  55. Jezebella

    I guess Mandos doesn’t bug me because I don’t read any of his longer posts. When he starts with the picking and the nits, I glaze over and move on. His shorter posts are inoffensive and occasionally amusing, if that’s worth anything.

    Anyway, it’s Twisty’s house, so I’m abstaining. Him what I ignore doesn’t get under my skin, what can I say?

  56. norbizness

    How in the shit did I ever enter the conversation?

    As for the referendum at hand, I abstain, which is generally what cowards do when the vote’s already decided. I will miss my internal joke, “The HANDS OF FATE,” though*.

    * yes, I know it’s “Manos”

  57. Catherine Martell

    LMYC:

    not only do I want him gone, but I want a giant mechanical ape hand to pop out of the screen, pick him up and carry him to the top of the Empire State Building, and drop him off the side.

    Hee hee! You really are magnificent when you’re in full flow. Fuck it. Twisty, I say bin him just as a gift to LMYC for that rant.

    And yes, he did say the “flamewar” thing, and it was one of the many fuckarded comments he made on that thread that turned me agin. Pinko Punko, don’t feel like a dumbass. You were being fair. It isn’t you that gone done wrong, it’s he.

  58. kcb

    One blamer, one vote: BTMFA. Make him take ACS with him.

    I’d like to second that approval of Norbizness.

    Norbiz rocks. Plus he actually knows something about the law so he contributes actual insight instead of pulling hypothetical, privilege-grasping scenarios out of the air.

  59. ramou

    Why believe that removing one troll will only cause another, worse troll to appear? I believe that if you don’t boot trolls, they’ll accumulate. It’s not like they wait politely in a queue.

    Repenting, it seems against the whole philosophy of being radical to accept a token aberration for those, or any other reasons.

    1) I don’t feel the “devil’s advocate” position is appropriate on this blog. I personally am offended when I see it. Try to look at why you feel it’s appropriate here, just to make sure that said feeling doesn’t stem from an interest in appeasing the patriarchy (In a whiny, successfully oppressed voice: “but we’re not that bad, <associated-male-of-whom-one-wants-acceptance>, we allow some menz to voice their opinion”).

    2) Using gradually bigger and bigger words to describe how one is justified in doing what one is doing, without actually mentioning a word in the direction of the topic at hand, serves no purpose but to make people not want to read the thread.

    3) Trivializing the blog, it’s owner, and the readership is disgusting. Doing it in a literal manner shows a huge amount of contempt, by which I mean that I didn’t interpret that he trivializes it, his comments say it directly re: his “Twisty just does this for shits and giggles” (paraphrased, yes) comment.

  60. Feminist Avatar

    I am entirely ambivalent as to whether Mandos stays or goes, although I think he really did cross the line into troll territory in the named thread.

    I would say, though, that it is not just timidity that stops us from demanding his or anybody else’s banning. I get a lot out of taking part in discussions on these threads and I would be genuinely upset about being asked not to participate in this community. As a result I am cautious about taking that away from somebody else. I think it is difficult to silence somebody else when not being silenced is so precious to me, and so important to women as a group. That said I think people who silence or abuse others or deliberately derail threads through exercising male privilege in their comments should be banned. I particularly object to being called ‘Tiger’ by trolls!

  61. brooke

    I’m for banning. In addition to the charming flamewar statement LMYC and Bonnie brought up, I give you:

    I merely point out argument flaws, because I am a chronic nitpicker and it amuses me

    Talk about your sniveling tone.

  62. kcb

    And sorry to plunge you even further into the discussion Norbiz, but when you parade around on the internets flashing your puppies at all and sundry, then you have to expect this kind of thing.

  63. Shabnam

    I’ll go out on a limb and vote to keep Mandos – being one myself, I like oddities.

  64. LCforevah

    kiki

    Se necesita repetir:

    ¡Adios pendejo!

  65. Hawise

    While I have an unusually high tolerance for Mandos’ shtick, I vote ban. Some of his posts can take along time to scroll past and, as now, I have an 11 year-old breathing down my neck for his turn at the computer. So buh-bye Mandos, buh-bye.

  66. Sniper

    I will miss my internal joke, “The HANDS OF FATE,” though*.

    * yes, I know it’s “Manos”

    This was the most enjoyable part of having Mandos around for me also, but it’s old now. I vote he goes.

  67. Rugosa

    I skip Mandos’s comments after the first couple on any thread, because he mostly just repeats himself. So my lukewarm milquetoast vote is that it’s Twisty’s blog, and if she is annoyed enough by Mandos, she should just ban him.

  68. Twisty

    Whoa! Who said anything about Norbizness? He’s the dude with the puppies, yo.

  69. Twisty

    I see kcb has already pointed out the puppies. I wish I understood blogging.

  70. yankee transplant

    I’m sayin’ throw his ass out.

  71. MzNicky

    I’ve always found Mandos tiresome and his comments pointless. I started skipping over his blurbs a while back, but then that meant I had to also skip over much of the blurbs left by others that referred to his tiresome pointless blurbs, which in conclusion pretty much blew the continuity of the thread for me.

    We’ve got a coupla guyz like Mandos over at the TGW site. Their sole purpose for hanging there, it seems, like Mandos’s here, is to barge in like an unwanted, uninvited guest, smirk all over the place, attempt to draw attention to themselves in ways not unlike a naked guy throwing open his raincoat in the hopes of upsetting the ladies, and then hang around annoying everyone. If it were my blog, which it’s not, they’d have gotten the heave-ho long ago.

    In other words, I vote to kick his ass to the curb.

  72. LMYC

    Quick note: It was Bonnie who found that quote. I’m on lynx at the moment and can’t poke around much.

  73. Pinko Punko

    TF, people were kind of joking about referenduming other dudely dudes. Someone wanted to retain Norbiz, but I think he has an unfair Austinite coolness advantage.

  74. LMYC

    But he’s OUR troll, and if we kick him we’ll
    just get something worse.

    Patriarchal Fear Instillled Into Women Since Birth #245,881: Don’t stick up for yourself, or it’ll just make things worse.

  75. ew_nc

    Of course he should be banned. And of course he will never see it as anything he did; it will be all our fault for “not being able to take a joke”. Fuck it, you can never get through to a narcissist. Who needs their input anyway? I say buh-bye Mandos, and here’s your Rice-a-Roni.

  76. Jokerine

    OUT!

    nuff said.

  77. Silence

    Practically every time Mandos posts, my eyes start to glaze over and a Keebler elf begins singing in my head. I’m not exactly sure why, but I blame the sheer length and dullness of his posts. His posts on the recent rape thread were the most irritating he’s produced yet.

    He’s never contributed anything that I felt added to my knowledge of the patriarchy. From what I can tell, he’s more of the priviledged male same, only cloaked with bigger words. This blog gets plenty of trolls if we need their input, and several open-minded males that are always interesting to hear from.

    It’s time for a big old crook to come and snatch Mandos out of the limelight and into the dark shadows backstage. Where, with any luck, a giant spider will quietly consume him in a corner.

  78. josquin

    I’m with Shabnam.
    I’ve known many a troll, and Mandos doesn’t strike me as one.
    He’s an oddity, never sways to prevailing winds, and, if nothing else, presents a certain rigor and precision of thought.
    I happen to have a soft spot for Asperger’s types. He may or may not be, but presents as such.
    If people are so disgruntled about comment threads being derailed, then they should just serenely observe the Mandos without so quickly rising to the perceived bait.
    The overly gleeful tone of some of these “off with his head!” comments is making me a little queasy.

  79. finnsmotel

    Crucify Barabbas! Spare Mandos.*

    -finn

    * assuming I get to vote, even tho I am male.

  80. Bonnie

    LMYC – kiss kiss.

  81. CannibalFemme

    Copping: I dragged in Norbizness. As a joke, to wit:

    “I vote for banning. Just please don’t kick out Norbizness.”

    This was followed by seconding and thirding of people voting to *keep* Norbizness, after which someone asked why IBTP *wouldn’t* keep Norbizness, which lead to the whole oh-my-lord-the-Japanese-have-been-shot debacle and any remaining whiff of humor was basically kilt. Not that I’m bitter or anything.

    Also: the idea of ‘Mandos’ and ‘Hands of Fate’ will be bouncing in my skull for at least the next twelve hours. “They had a crew? I refuse to believe they had a crew!”

  82. Joanna

    I wouldn’t have said anything either way, not having read the thread, but now that I have, I say UGH. It’s one thing to disagree or be disagreeable, and quite another to be disagreeable AND to be rude to one’s host.

  83. kay

    OhmyGODDAMN, why do we even have to have any cockheaded assholes here, let alone a dickblister like Mandos? Can’t I just be fucking free of them and their never-ending “logical” and “authoritative” steez on one damn blog on the whole innarnets?

    Twisty, this is really the only place I can get the straight dope and have just a taste of sanity. If there is one thing I don’t need it’s another devil’s advocate / cheerleader for the status quo coming all up at me on my favorite fucking blog!

    Whack the mole! Then blame him!

  84. Theriomorph

    Boring, bickering, patronizing free-zone.

  85. Twisty

    Ah, if it were only a simple matter of not rising to the bait. But even when a current group of commenters agrees to ignore him, there is always someone new who, not familiar with the Mandosian protocol, responds, thus setting the whole tiresome thing in motion again.

    It seems absurd, too, to have to maintain a special protocol for one lone antagonist, in the name of devil’s advocatry or whatever.

    Mandos kind of got grandfathered in, you know. He was here before the blamers really began to coagulate into a sort of culture, and I’ve gotten used to him. But there’s no question that if he had suddenly showed up for the first time this week, I would have banned him instantly.

    Why the referedum, you ask? Since he is a reader of such long standing, I wanted to see whether anybody could raise serious objections to handing him the mitten. For all I knew, he occupies a special sentimental nook in the majority of hearts.

  86. josquin

    Also:
    If write-in votes were allowed by Twisty, there are a coupla commenters I’d suggest banning a hell of a lot faster than I would the Mandos.
    I’m biting my tongue, as it were, to keep from blurting out those names at this very moment.

  87. Mandos

    I find this thread absolutely hilarious, and fully support its premise. Yes, I said that I’d leave if Twisty asked me to go. I should have expected that Twisty’s creative genius (and I mean that genuinely) would make it into a giant circus.

    Pinko Punko:

    Sigh. I am out of the discussion now, I just want to see some good “banning” puns. I am going to ask Mandos to specifically explain to me why he wrote what LMYC posted. I won’t report back on it, but I do want to hear it. I feel a little bit silly now. I’m not sure if that statement is just boasting to feel loved by some crowd, but it sure makes me look like a dumbass.

    I wrote that because people were accusing me of being two-faced with certain other blogs. Since I would never be able to convince them otherwise, I decided to take it even further. I probably shouldn’t have gone that needlesomely far, but hindsight is 20/20.

    The point is that I think that a lot of Twisty’s critics say interesting things (just like Twisty does), so I do in fact point out something that has been said on this blog that I think will make them say something thought-provoking. But other people take this as disingenuousness: so be it.

    Anyway, I eagerly await Twisty’s decision after reading this thread.

  88. Bird

    Speaking of men whose presence is no longer required, apparently Jerry Falwell just died.

    As for Mandos, I rue the day I responded to his posts. If our gracious host so desires, she should certainly throw him out on his ear.

  89. Sandblaster

    Out. He gets in the way of good conversation.

  90. Bonnie

    I dislike the devil’s advocate rhetorical position as much as I dislike people who are described by, “Oh but s/he means well.”

    Both are disingenuous.

    Both are irritating.

    Both are condescending snobby crappish baiting spiteful nonsense, up with which I will not put.

  91. curiousgyrl

    I am slightly sentimentally anti-ban. but I mostly lurk.

  92. buggle

    Gah, ban him. My eyes also just glaze over when he starts writing. It’s just a waste of space. I’ve been wondering for a long time why he is allowed to post on here.

  93. Dawn Coyote

    Dear Mandos,

    You might be happier with your own kind. They love it when someone comes to school them. Have fun and play nice, and don’t forget the teflon raincoat.

  94. MzNicky

    kay: Ha ha ha! Exactly what you said. Exactly.

  95. magickitty

    I always thought Mandos knew Twisty in real life, and that’s why he was indulged.

    But no? Well then buh-bye, Mandos.

  96. Mandos

    That place looks boring.

    *maudlin, in a disingenuous sort of way* Well, that means I will actually get work done now. */maudlin, in a disingenuous sort of way*

  97. josquin

    Bonnie writes:
    “Both are condescending snobby crappish baiting spiteful nonsense, up with which I will not put.”

    If this is the litmus test for being ban-worthy, then at least 50% of us should be immediately put out on our big fat collective snobby crappish spiteful asses.

  98. Bonnie

    Yep.

  99. Puffin

    Wasn’t there some grand IBTP festival in the works? With a big opening night reception on the deck of some boat?Involving margaritas and tacos? And blamers dancing the night away to yacht rock?

    I always pictured Mandos as the guy by the guacamole bowl talking to himself about buttons and what not.

    I vote for disemvowelment of all Mandos posts. That way he can stay, AND his posts will begin to make sense.

  100. Medbh

    Banned. Out.
    Thanks for asking, Twisty.

  101. Patti

    I didn’t care much, until he started chiming in being an asshole, which reminded me of how sneaky and manipulative he is, and that I hate to read his comments, and people do get sucked into trying to take him in good faith, but that’s not how he’s operating, and it does just all go to hell then. I vote out.

  102. B. Dagger Lee

    I come bearing glad tidings! Jerry Falwell died! So long! Fairwell! auf wiedersehen! adieu!

  103. Patti

    “hilarious”. Exactly.

  104. B. Dagger Lee

    Oh, a little Bird already flew above here with the glad tidings of Jerry’s trip to Hell. I’m totally excited, I feel cheerful, things are looking up.

  105. stekatz

    I’ve simply got to stop doing work because I can never seem to respond in a timely fashion. Now I’ve missed the pre-Mandos window of opportunity on this thread.

    Being married to a software engineer I think gives me mounds of street cred to state categorically that there is nothing more disrespectful, self-congratulatory, conceited and inflammatory as a man who must force everyone in a discussion to the all-powerful, inherently superior rules of LOGIC.

    Logic sucks.

    I come here for the tacos. I don’t come for yet another unoriginal devil’s advocate trying to somehow expand our minds through debate. Debate never educates anyone. It only pisses people off and closes their minds to you.

    I trust in the chemo-addled brain of our hostess to make the right decision.

  106. Sara

    Count me with the sentimentalists, if you count me at all.

    My sentimentalism derives from a perception of your relationship with him, Twisty, as being amicably adversarial, from my having perceived Mandos’ attitude in the past as being more droll than troll, and from memories of him being very amusing on the subjects of food and science fiction. (Poutine, anyone?) However, I must confess that I have been ignoring his comments on other subjects for quite some time now.

    I come here to read you. Other people sometimes say interesting, amusing, and useful things here which I am also glad to read, but they are not why I visit.

  107. S-kat

    For my part, I never really noticed what a troll Mandos can be until the derailing of the “She said” post at which point I asked myself, “Why don’t they just ignore him. He obviously isn’t getting the point here.”

    I suppose that since he’s been around since I first stumbled in I figured he was okay if a bit of an aggitator.

    Mandos, will you continue to read after your comments have been banned?

    It seems like a given that the majority have ruled you out.

  108. andy b

    I’m de-lurking just to thank you, Twisty, for using the phrase “handing him the mitten.” You’ve made a novice blamer (and veteran Wodehouse reader) very happy.

  109. Cirkux and Wee1

    Cirkux: *crawling out of the woodwork*
    I say ban him. His logic is faulty, his semantics flawed and he is not half as interesting as he thinks he is.
    Plus he’s a Tolkien-fan. Eurgh!

    Wee1: Ban, ban and ban again. Being able to work the citation tool does not a good argument make. The overuse of same,the constant use of Straw Men, Non Sequiturs and all the fallacious arguments in the book, and not being able to comprehend logic, do however a fucking annoying troll make! By the second post I was asking myself if it was possible to be this stupid and still be able to operate door knobs. I have come to the conclusion that some kind of carer must come down to his mom’s basement and help him with the shoelaces and the door in the mornings. I have thought this through, utilizing his own brand of “dimgic” and this is the only logical explanation to him not spending his day staring at his knob. Actually, that _is_ what he does, when I think of it.

    Two votes for ban. Congratulations Mandos, you are now despised in Sweden too. There will be no invitation to the Nobel Dinner for you. And that is merely for trying to bastardize logic and semantics, of which you know diddly squat, don’t even get us started on your entitled ass.
    WBTP

  110. delphyne

    “Logic sucks.”

    Logic is fine when it’s not being confused with bone-headed defense of the masculinist status quo. A lot of men are attached to the latter at the expense of the former.

  111. ilyka

    Poutine, anyone?

    But that’s exactly why I want him banned! His little diversions, his ways of making threads all about him, are not as cute as he thinks they are.

  112. j

    I don’t think my vote will make a difference, and I don’t comment often anyway, but I vote for Mandos to stay.

  113. thisisendless

    I say ban him.

    I don’t really comment much, and only lurk and read. But I think patriarchy blamers deserve a space free from paternal “devil’s advocate” trollios like this guy.

    He does not represent well thought out logical opinion. He is just an instigator who gets off on affecting women in some way. In this case the abuse comes in the form of annoyance and derailing threads.

    It’s up to you Twisty, of course. But if voting I vote to ban.

  114. Sniper

    Mandos is to logic what Mojo Jojo is to rhetoric.

  115. Mandos

    By “hilarious”, I should have said, it’s entirely appropriate that my bannage should occur after Twisty instigates a protracted spectacle of Mandos-analysis. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

    Mandos, will you continue to read after your comments have been banned?

    This being a when now rather than an if, heh. Probably, yes. There are a number of blogs where I read but don’t post, or post rarely. Twisty’s posts and threads were like a nigh-irresistible siren song, a kind of goldmine of interesting little details and presuppositions and assumptions. I’d say that I still love you all, but you wouldn’t believe me.

  116. Moira

    Ban his boring, anti-woman, thread-derailin’, “I only do this for the entertainment value” ass.

  117. slythwolf

    if we kick him we’ll just get something worse.

    I’m confused–is there some kind of ruling body doling out trolls to every feminist blog, or something? Is there some kind of universal law stating that there always has to be one? No? Didn’t think so. If we’re going to “get something worse” in the future, I would imagine we will, regardless of whether we keep Mandos around. And I would imagine that if we keep him, and all those who come after him, in the name of preventing worse trolls from showing up, they’ll fucking take over.

    Nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

  118. Patti

    We were his fucking sirens? Shit, I vote for drowning.

  119. Mandos

    We were his fucking sirens? Shit, I vote for drowning.

    *sigh* I can’t even make a classical allusion today correctly. It must have been the chimichangas I ate for lunch.

  120. lawbitch

    Somebody just referenced “Mojo Jojo?” Thanks a lot! Now, I’ll go around using that ridiculous fake accent all night!

  121. Sean

    Bandos.

  122. Greg

    BTMFA.

  123. Mel

    “I’d say that I still love you all, but you wouldn’t believe me.”

    Of all the lies and stupidity he has contributed, that is the “terriblest.” I guess that’s why he saved it up for last.

    He’s a shmuck. Waste ‘im.

  124. kate

    If I may step in, I owe apologies to certain persons that I unwaringly stepped on during dinner yesterday. There was a fly buzzing around the table. Its the same one all the time and while others get squashed, I was beckoned to ignore him. I tried, my friends, I tried. But he kept crawling on the table and getting in the way. Crise I even noticed people were like moving their plates and shit just to be able to pretend he wasn’t there! But he was, can’t you see? He was spoiling the damn dinner, I saw, I swear I saw him spitting on the mashed potatoes and you know what? That was it. I’d had it. When I’ve had it, I’ve had it.

    J: I don’t know what your comment was, when I made that biting trajectory about wtf’s highlighting yours, I apologize, because I thought I was talking about someone else and I did not intend to hit you.

    And to anyone, including my autistic nephew, who suffers from Asberger’s, or cares for or is related to anyone who does, my use of that condition in snideness was uncalled for, stupid and asinine. Please accept my sincerest apologies and believe me when I say I am ashamed of myself.

    Now, that being said, Mandos must go. You being all fluffy now doesn’t cut it.

    The parallel to a discussion of consent to the Mandos not leaving until he gets a direct Twisty mandate was over the top. Its like reliving every instance where the persistent, obnoxious ass is poking me, prodding me, cornering me, insisting, hitting on every available woman, to tease, to puncture, to prod. Because he is allowed and we are all supposed to just suck it up and ignore the behavior.

    When the behavior is tiresome, has gone on too long, we are told to silently suck it up and be nice. He’s got connections, he’s the lawyer’s son, the shopkeeper’s nephew, he’s a nice boy.

    When Mandos said that this site is nothing more than entertainment and that apparently therefore, the arguments mean nothing and by default we commenters mean nothing, that was enough.

    I hear all I want of what men think, I rarely if ever get a chance to hear what other thinking women think. We do not need another man coming around to tell woman once again how to think, when to think and if their thinking is worth thinking. I think that’s crap.

    Take away his membership card and put the bouncer on notice. No Entrada!

  125. LouisaMayAlcott

    Get Mandos the f&ck out of here Please!

  126. EN

    I don’t expect to agree with everything I read on here; if I did, there wouldn’t be much point in visiting. What I do expect is discussion among people who share the same values and hopes as I do, though we may have differing views on how we should approach this. The devil’s advocate approach would be useful if we were in the legislature, fine-tuning a bill before putting it to a vote. For discussing the primary idea, however, it’s disruptive. I scroll past Mandos’ posts, but there’s enough responses to him that it’s like getting drunk when I’ve got a mosquito bite- I try to focus on what’s important (daquiris), but that annoyance keeps intruding.

  127. Mandos

    When Mandos said that this site is nothing more than entertainment and that apparently therefore, the arguments mean nothing and by default we commenters mean nothing, that was enough.

    I never said any of this. I think that some of it is quite important, as I said:

    Because they purport to reach far far down into the human condition, more than anyone else claims, really. Consequently, it’s actually important to examine the content of the ideas.

    What I *did* say is that a particular prevalent philosophy held by others (including, apparently, by her own words, the blog’s owner) implies that these kinds of discussions are not much more than some form of entertainment. As, again, I said:

    Actually, this is just the logical consequence of saying that there is no action at all that isn’t fully entangled in patriarchy (an idea that is frequently bruited about here). Also the use of the word “blame”. Because if that is the case, any discussion of patriarchy has no value other than amusement, or to be charitable, some variety of venting.

    Obviously, I understand that nothing I say between now and the descent of the guillotine blade will change anything, but while I have the opportunity, I’ll clarify these misconceptions.

  128. jodie a.c

    Ban his narcissitic androcentric ass.

    He has openly admitted to being here for only “entertainment” value and I am appalled that he is allowed to stay around with such a “women are only entertainment for me” attitude.

  129. Mandos

    Anyway, I’m heading off now (to sighs, I presume, of relief). By the time I’m back I’m likely to have been banned. So I’d like to say, if that’s the case, so long, and thanks for all the fish! A specisl thank you to the lurkers who supported me in email.

  130. whyme63

    Ban.
    If it lies within your power to make the ick go away, why would you decide to keep it around?

    Life’s too bloody short to spend it with people you don’t like.

  131. josquin

    Patti postulates:

    “We were his fucking sirens? Shit, I vote for drowning.”

    For freak’s sakes, people, comments like these are starting to make Mandos look damn reasonable!
    That’s clearly not what was meant by the siren reference.
    Goodness! Hounds after a fox seem circumspect by comparison.
    Twisty, make it stop. There’s some transference going on here, (in the psychoanalytic meaning of the word) I’m sure of it.

  132. LMYC

    I remember once being on a women’s list where the Designated Male Ingrown Hair literally quoted Chief Joseph when he was finally removed, in a misguided attempt to appeal to the maternal instinct of the women he’d devoted himself to aggravating.

    It didn’t work then, either.

  133. delphyne

    So I’d like to know the breakdown by sex of the people who want to keep Mandos compared to those who want him canned. I think there’s a small male/female divide going on here.

  134. LMYC

    The reason I’m irked about the “poor boy he must have Asperger’s” thing is that, having come frmo the educational background I do, I know more than a few high-functioners myself, decent people all.

    They despise eye contact and need to be warned when you try to interact with them or sneak up on them and say “Wanna cup of tea?” while they’re reading a book. It’s also a bad idea to surprise them with dinner guests. Other than that and a few other workarounds, dealing with them is not a difficult thing.

    That is not Mandos. These are people who are bulls in a china shop regards unspoken human social conventions.

    People like Mandos are maestros at uspoken human social conventions –absolute gems at hacing them. not only do they understand them, but they know precisely what the lay of the land is. They are so deft with them that they pride themselves on being able to walk juuuuust to one side of that line. Most aspies and high-functioners blunder only because they don’t even realize the line exists. The Mandoses of teh world not only know where the lines are, they know where they lie to the nth millimeter.

    That’s not a high-functioner. That’s a provoking PITA.

    I made another comment about this, but I think it got eaten.

  135. smmo

    Oh Mandos, you came and you took now you’re leaving, we’ve sent you away, Oh Mandos.

    That said, I don’t generally find Mandos the most annoying commenter. A certain other Bondian commenter enraged me to the point of quintuple posting. A desperate email to Twisty and her kind and good-humored response saved my ass. Yes, kind and good-humored. Take that “Twisty is a big meany” folks.

    That said, Mandos’ behavior in the “I know what it’s like to be dead” post warrants banishment.

  136. kate

    “A specisl thank you to the lurkers who supported me in email.

    Watch out blamers! There’s a secret guerilla army of Mandosians hovering just above us, holding the balance the of righteousness against our brutish, hairy-legged onslaught.

  137. Sniper

    Somebody just referenced “Mojo Jojo?” Thanks a lot! Now, I’ll go around using that ridiculous fake accent all night!

    Will you be speaking with the new accent that is new? That is to say, not the accent that you had previously which was different from the accent you are using now or will be using when you decide to change accents?

    Run and hides.

  138. Catherine Martell

    kate:

    There’s a secret guerilla army of Mandosians hovering just above us, holding the balance the of righteousness against our brutish, hairy-legged onslaught.

    Yes, there is. It’s called the patriarchy.

    *braids armpits for war*

  139. Keez-R

    Mandos is a useless turd. Ban him.

  140. lawbitch

    For those of you unfamiliar with Mojo JoJo, here’s a link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfQIwIy7_bU

  141. Dawn Coyote

    josquin:

    (newcomer observations)

    It looks more like counter-transference to me. Sounds like Mandos has a lot of strategies for evoking responses, while offering little in the way of honest engagement on the issues. People don’t like being worked. Sounds like his greatest crime was wasting your time. That’s not a crime that warrants drowning, though it’s consistent with his own allusion. I find the desire expressed by some commenters here for bodily harm to fall upon the blamed parties a tad alarming. I don’t understand how it’s helpful, except perhaps in a cathartic sort of way. Remember Kathy Sierra.

  142. LMYC

    *braids armpits for war*

    Thanks for that, CM. That was good lapsang souchong, and it’s now on my sleeves.

  143. Olive

    Keeping these guys gives you a reputation for merciful whims. Do you want a reputation for whimsy?

  144. lawbitch

    Fer gawds sake, we’re not really drowning someone. *rolls eyes* We’re just saying remove one guy from our this little corner of cyberspace.

    It sounds so patronizing to say that we sound like a group of crazed wimmin.

  145. lawbitch

    *braids armpits for war*

    I think that we may have our new t-shirt slogan here.

  146. annaham

    My vote is for “out.”

  147. Ms Kate

    Mandos is a block of foam. Baffling, sure (there’s your banning pun), but welcome if only because the echo effect can get pretty deafening sometimes.

  148. Dawn Coyote

    though it’s a punishment consistent with his own allusion.

    For a couple of years I’ve been hanging in an environment that eschews grammatical conventions in favor of fuller expression. I’ve adopted the shorthand enough that it makes me sound stupid over here.

    …so goes my excuse, anyway.

  149. LMYC

    Do you want a reputation for whimsy?

    That’s what the occasional pictures of Bert chewing on a pipe are for.

  150. Loosely Twisted

    I started reading this blog along time ago. When this cute picture I clicked on in an IVF woman’s blog roll.

    She has since left her blog after finally becoming a mother of twins. (Same as me)

    Twisty grabbed my attention like a shinning light and turned the darkness into something bright in broad daylight that I had never seen before.

    Then I watched as her blog moved forward and the community came alive and even then I was afraid to speak up or say or even comment my thoughts on the post of the day. For atleast 3 yrs now I have not missed a Twisty post, and one such bright day I created a log in, that tried to immulate Twisty without trying to sound stupid. Loosely Twisted. :)

    But I gotta say, every single time I ventured to the comment section, this one person would just derail everything.

    Usually an unknown troll but most of the time Mandos would be right there in the center of it and I would wait another day to maybe make my comment try to become involved, try to see what it was that was so interesting.

    Reminds me of my Ex. So simple, so unassuming. Yet so goddamn up in your face that you either slap his silly fucking grin of his face, or walk away.

    Now if this is coming to a vote. **deep breath** then I say it’s about goddamn time Mandos is kicked the fuck out of here. How many times I so wanted to get into that and slap him silly for acting like a bint! But no, I don’t like confrontations because the scare the absolute fucking hell out of me. And IBTP for that.

    No, my vote is he needs to GET the FUCK OUT!

  151. Troggy in his best interview suit

    Now that Mando is being shown the door perhaps there is room under the bridge for another troll to take his place?

    References available upon request.

  152. Twisty

    Troggy’s off-topic. Banned!

  153. Mau

    I vote for “he does go.”

    Blog trolls are like Yellowstone bears: people ~know~ they aren’t supposed to feed them, and yet they do anyway. This creates problem bears, and the problem bears then have to be relocated for the Good Of All.

  154. Ms Kate

    Mandos Hands of Fate’s fate is in your hands.

  155. Twisty

    “Twisty grabbed my attention like a shinning light and turned the darkness into something bright in broad daylight that I had never seen before.”

    This is, like, the one of the nicest things anyone’s ever said about this dumb blog.

  156. Mar Iguana

    Oh happy day. Finally, no more Mandos droppings. Obviously, I vote his blogular status dead.

  157. Urban

    I vote for banning Mandos.

    I don’t comment much, but a large part of the reason I read IBTP is because the comment threads are so interesting and informative. Very often the commentariat significantly adds to my understanding of the issues, providing a level of intelligent discussion (and articulately made opposing points) sadly rare on blogs. Personally, I value the space Twisty provides for the discussion of these issues. I have felt on a number of occasions that Mandos invades that space, hijacking the discussion with his attention-seeking.

    Mandos has ruined threads that I otherwise would have taken the time and interest to read in full (and maybe, even comment on myself). As soon as Mandos hoves into view, the thread turns into a confusing, jumbled mess, where nobody is even talking about the issue anymore. Often threads become completely unreadable as a result. I find that frustrating and upsetting. Making every thread a paradigm of structured discussion is probably impossible, but I think banning Mandos would go a long way to achieving something similar.

  158. ::Wendy::

    Ban Mando if banning him is concsstent with what you want to achive with your blog and effective use of the comments section.

    I read Twisty’s posts for insight, enlightenment, perspective and humour. My expectations of the comments section, which I read less frequently, are different and utilize fast scrolling and selective reading….. …Mando has achieved a striking level of insignificance in my experience…

  159. Bonnie

    *braids armpits for war*

    I think that we may have our new t-shirt slogan here.

    I second the motion.

  160. Repenting

    Twisty, I love you! I love this blog. I hate the patriarchy, and I love women. Like, really love them, I’m a lesbian. I also support you one hundred percent in kicking Mandos.

    I was only joking about worse trolls, trolls will show up whether we ban their predecessors or not. My point about Mandos was that I think he’s good for stirring up discussion. But he also tends to set off negative emotions, and that’s a bad thing, so I don’t think there’s anything wrong with banning him. Still, I don’t take back my stay vote.

    I’m here, I’m queer, and I think Mandos keeps discussions alive. Even when his sparkling Mandosian wit causes people to veer off topic, blamers often come up with brilliantly rebellious anti-patriarchal wisdom in response.

    Do I have to always agree with majority opinion in order to fight the patriarchy? I hope not, cause I’m not a hundred percent there this time. But I’m not doing this just to be contrary, and I would much rather be liked by my sister blamers. Hopefully this ridiculous Mandos issue is resolved so that regularly scheduled blaming can continue.

  161. Ms Kate

    I think that we may have our new t-shirt slogan here.

    Better make that a tank top – with NO shelf bra!

  162. josquin

    Dawn Coyote:
    you and I are in accord. I was quoting another commenter re:
    “drowning”, and found it unfortunate that said commenter jumped hard on the Mandos’s siren comment without any apparent understanding.
    The threats of bodily harm, although not meant to be taken literally, are still disturbing. I do remember Kathy Sierra and hate the way this “ban him, drown him, whack him, blame him” thread has developed. The mob is beginning to salivate and rub its hands together with glee, and the frenzy here doesn’t seem to fit the crime.

  163. Rosie

    Posting comments on someone’s blog is not a birthright. Dude is not entitled. I hate reading through trollish posts. Get him out of here.

  164. curtis

    Somewhere in the back of my head Giblets is screaming ‘BAN HIM!’, and I always bow before Giblets.

    Just spent hours reading through the rape thread and his disingenous fake devils advocate mask fell all the way off.

  165. stekatz

    Hate to barge in again. But I noticed something while I was scanning the archives for updates about Zippy’s condition because the new post with Bert’s fur got me to wondering.

    In both Zippy posts there was plenty of well wishing from the usual suspects but not a single comment from you-know-who.

    I’m not accusing, I’m just saying.

    Now back to bill paying.

  166. phio gistic

    I scroll past his posts. They are boring and don’t add anything. Neither do I, but I’m much quieter about it.

    I, of course, wish for technological solutions like the better usenet clients had – filter authors I don’t like, highlight ones that I do. That’s so 1980′s, though.

  167. Gen

    I hate all trolls and the way they hijack threads or comments, and make the topic about themselves. Ban!

  168. Troggy catches a ban-stick to the face

    Sworn enemy of patriarchal fascist dicks/ she’s lightning quick- with the ban stick!

  169. Anonymous

    He is so boring. I don’t have time enough in my life for boring. Make it go away, please.

  170. Mandos

    Wow, I’m not even banned yet.

    The mob is beginning to salivate and rub its hands together with glee, and the frenzy here doesn’t seem to fit the crime.

    It could have ended a lot earlier, but obviously someone is amused by letting it run. Note the appearance of a cute doggie post in the middle of the fray. Also note that on the thread on which I’m being convicted, there was a clear divide on the interpretation of the proposed law, which was never clarified despite numerous easy opportunities.

    The biggest blowups on this blog—the BJ and SM debacles—I had no hand in whatsoever.

    It isn’t *me* for whom this is purely entertainment (although it can be fun), but *I’m* very happy to entertain someone else. Are you?

  171. Dr. Beads

    Twisty, I’m a long-time adoring fan of your blog and your sparkling writing, and a dyed-in-the-dog-fur blamer.

    I vote for banning Mandos, Mandos, Mandos. Oh, and MonkWrek, while we’re at it. (I see that you already took care of Deep Frought, for which I thank you.)

  172. Cunning Allusionment?

    I don’t think I should get a vote on this since I haven’t even been here a week.
    I’m posting because of the whole “nitpicking is bad” thing. There’s hardly the kind of consensus on this as there is on banning Mandos, but having it come up a few times got me thinking. It seems like the problem with Mandos’ approach (in the one thread I’ve encountered him in) seems to be nitpicking just to pick holes. Really, everyone who thought critically about the topic nitpicked, but everyone else was doing it with some larger purpose behind it – namely, how to stop men from raping women. Mandos was just picking holes, and then instead of bringing the focus back to the topic when people started attacking him, he started attacking them back, hence the train-wreck. I think critical thinking/analysis are very useful tools, but I think you have to use them for something larger than poking at other people’s ideas for them to have much value.
    Grrr, inarticulateness.

  173. Mandos

    Mandos was just picking holes, and then instead of bringing the focus back to the topic when people started attacking him, he started attacking them back, hence the train-wreck.

    You’re absolutely right. I forgot for a moment that half the point is that I’m not eligible to blame the high acolytes of blamery, even if they blame me, but that I should instead return to the topic, which is what I usually try to do. However, enough people persistently got on my case that I made the ill-advised decision to engage them, thinking that it wouldn’t hurt because some of them are usual and trenchant critics.

    But the rule against blaming the blamers immediately took effect, leading to this thread. That’s my mistake and I’ve always been willing to face bannage for it.

    I think critical thinking/analysis are very useful tools, but I think you have to use them for something larger than poking at other people’s ideas for them to have much value.

    Well, so, the problem is that I don’t believe that as a male individual, I should be making original proposals of my own for the Improvement of Feminism. BUT part of what I’m actually paid to do in real life is something really very nitpicky, and that’s the kind of thing that I’m good at more than anything else. Since I consider the subject very interesting, but I don’t believe that I should be making proposal, the only thing I can do is nitpick.

    And, well, it’s fun. I prefer to do it to important and interesting things. I used to nitpick right-wing libertarians and economists too, but they aren’t half as significant in my opinion.

  174. Tigs

    I came out of lurking because Mandos pissed me off so much one day, so I do have some sort of sentimental regard.
    On the other hand, even as a devotee of abstract linguistic constructions, I still don’t find Mandos to be helpful or enlightening and more than that I don’t think he *listens* to what people are actually saying.

    Whatever Twisty wants is what I want.

  175. Anastasia B.

    Dude keeps digging the hole deeper. Ban him already. He’ll have martyr-bragging rights, but really, who the fuck cares?

  176. edith

    If Mandos could just learn to shut up more, then everything would be fine. How about you make a deal that he won’t comment more than like, five times per thread?

    On a happier note, FALWELL IS INDEED DEAD, DING-DONG!

  177. Mandos

    Dude keeps digging the hole deeper. Ban him already. He’ll have martyr-bragging rights, but really, who the fuck cares?

    Yeah, why haven’t I been banned yet? This is turning into a rather drawn out public execution. If I had known it would take this long, I’d have prepared my magnum opus, to be read from a scented bath.

  178. Dawn Coyote

    It’s all about the performance, huh, guy? Is that even, like, remotely satisfying for you? I suppose it must be, or you’d do something else.

  179. Mildred Fierce

    Don’t forget the razors, Mandos. Don’t forget the razors.

  180. Mandos

    Hmm, have I actually been banned? Post didn’t work last time.

  181. Mandos

    Oh, not yet.

    Anyway, performance is all I got left. And thanks for the reminder about the razors, but I thought they were being supplied.

  182. Dawn Coyote

    Yeah. Sorry. I thought about that after. What do I know? I just got into town. I don’t like banning, myself. I like rehabilitation, but some people don’t have a lot of flex.

    I actually like nitpickers and those who advance arguments based on specious but gracefully-stated logic. They’re sort of fun, in the right environment.

    That board isn’t always boring, though it’s a shadow of its former self.

  183. Mandos

    It happens. Forums come and go. Once upon a time, even USENET was the cutting edge of online discussion, instead of the violent decaying gangland it currently is.

    Of course, that was because there was nothing else.

  184. LilliEve

    Well, look what happens when you don’t even lurk for a coupla days. I vote: ban! This blog is much more thought provoking, interesting, and fun without commenters like Mandos around.

  185. Dawn Coyote

    …and if you do happen to register* over there and post, people will say that you’re someone else – an oldtimer – probably ciinc. If you stick around, they’ll realize that you’re someeone new, but in the meantime, I’ll have a few giggles.

    That board has been a twisted place at times, but some of the most intelligent and thoughtful people I’ve ever run across post there, still.

    * it just now occurs to me that the login feature isn’t working – a consequence of too many redirects since WaPo bought Slate from MSN. This is the way in to post: bookmark the page; sign in; go back to the bookmark and access the page from there; post or reply. It’ll be fixed soon, so they say.

  186. Dawn Coyote

    Slate is doing a big re-design of the forums, set to launch at the end of May. I wonder if it will revitalize or kill the place. I’ve lately been reading up on the life-cycles of online communities. They seem to have a predictible arc.

    That particular board has been isolated for years from the article frays. Philosophers, poets and pundits took up permanent residence there and devised entertaining and wicked games to play with each other.

  187. edith

    That reminds me, I should really take a bath.

  188. Gertrude Strine

    “Twisty grabbed my attention like a shinning light”

    This could have been what Mandos had pleaded, if he was the kind of contributor able to express such generosity. My impression of Mandos is that he fell desperately in love this way with Twisty, thought that he had her all to himself back in the days when post totals were in single figures, and has spent the rest of the time trying to get her attention back any way he could.

    I couldn’t give a stuff whether he posts or not because I’m not generally a participant in the comments – - where does everyone get the regular time to read and post here?

    Anyway – that’s my 2c worth.
    And I think I’m probably seriously overvaluing the currency at that.

  189. liz

    God, he’s such a bore. And overly fond of his thesaurus.

  190. Liss

    Belated, futile keep vote. Whither deconstruction?

  191. Patti

    Oh for heaven’s sakes. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_song

    Sirens = siren’s song = drowning. Lame use of classical allusion by Mandos, which I responded to.

    Do your research before you think I’m just randomly saying to drown someone. I’m not salivating and rubbing my hands together. Just responding to a typical, condescending comment with a reminder of what happened when people fucked with the sirens.

  192. Pinko Punko

    I wish I could be bored by such things. Tired and boring are not the same. How about I wish everyone a goodnight? Sleep well everyone.

  193. therealUK

    As others have said, Mandos is not actually logical, just believes himself to be so. And his trying to get the discussion to revolve around his concept of his own cleverness, rather than him paying any genuine attention to what the women are actually saying here, is what is so disruptive.

    Him and all similar should be kept out.

  194. vera

    where does everyone get the regular time to read and post here?

    I deprive myself of sleep.

  195. SusanM

    I ignore trolls once I learn who they are, and try to ignore any posts responding to them, but that’s a lot harder. I vote ban.

  196. M

    Another futile and belated vote against banning. Threads of a hundred “hell, yeahs!” bore me – if not to tears, then certainly over to Pandagon or Feministe, where the lictors of the big ban-stick walk more softly and discussion is livelier.

  197. mearl

    Wow. Mandos manages to drop in and bore everybody during his own referendum. Crazy! Guess what, I STILL scrolled past his posts on this one, as is the norm on other posts. My thumb is pretty much down.

  198. RadFemHedonist

    I’ll vote for a ban, he is basically a troll who can spell and structure sentences reasonably well, and who pretends to be logical but actually most of the time rambles on and on about nothing, asking supposedly worthwhile questions like “is all objectification bad?” So long as it’s by non-violent means I’d prefer he was no longer on the boards.

  199. jo

    Out.

  200. Johanna

    Why is he not banned yet?

  201. smm

    “Ah, if it were only a simple matter of not rising to the bait. But even when a current group of commenters agrees to ignore him, there is always someone new who, not familiar with the Mandosian protocol, responds, thus setting the whole tiresome thing in motion again.”

    Nonesense. Blamers here positively flock to trolls! Especially guilty of this are long-term posters who supposedly know better.

  202. delphyne

    “Well, so, the problem is that I don’t believe that as a male individual, I should be making original proposals of my own for the Improvement of Feminism.”

    See this is why you don’t belong here. Twisty’s proposal had nothing to do with improving feminism. Twisty’s proposal was about stopping men raping women or rather curtailing their rights to do so. You keep missing the point, which is why your nitpicking is so useless and annoying.

    “BUT part of what I’m actually paid to do in real life is something really very nitpicky, and that’s the kind of thing that I’m good at more than anything else. Since I consider the subject very interesting, but I don’t believe that I should be making proposal, the only thing I can do is nitpick.”

    Or you could always STFU and listen but I kind of think, like most men, that thought has probably never entered your mind and you are too enamoured by the sound of your own nitpicking to even bother to try to understand the points people are making (as evidenced above).

    “And, well, it’s fun. I prefer to do it to important and interesting things. I used to nitpick right-wing libertarians and economists too, but they aren’t half as significant in my opinion.”

    Yeah because right wing libertarians and economists have no power in the world, whilst radical feminists rule OK. I said it before, you see us as a threat that’s why you do this. This is about sexism and male entitlement. I know everybody is being jokey about this still but it isn’t actually funny. You’ve been inserting yourself into feminist dialogue where you aren’t wanted and doing your best to fuck things up. You’re not harmless, no matter how benign a persona you pretend to have.

    And the fact that you haven’t left, even though Twisty has said that the blamers’ vote is what counts, and you can see it has gone against you is yet another example of your entitled, selfish, RUDE attitude. You won’t leave until you are actually forced to. Why don’t you politely say goodbye instead of waiting until the last minute when you are finally booted out the door?

  203. Loosely Twisted

    Because that would be admiting that he isn’t wanted here. His ego wouldn’t allow that.

  204. delphyne

    But there’s, like, so much EVIDENCE.

    Hummmmph.

  205. Rumblelizard

    Out out out!

  206. Cath

    What delphyne said. Every word. AMF, Mandos.

  207. kiki

    A specisl thank you to the lurkers who supported me in email.

    Nice try, troll. This is right out of the troll handbook. Every single time I’ve been on a forum when a troll was outed they have responded with this exact line. Every time. Just get to the indignant flounce already.

  208. MzNicky

    “Ah, if it were only a simple matter of not rising to the bait. But even when a current group of commenters agrees to ignore him, there is always someone new who, not familiar with the Mandosian protocol, responds, thus setting the whole tiresome thing in motion again.”

    Why should persistent bait-casting be tolerated here, thus placing upon the blamers’ weary shoulders the onus of not rising to it? Don’t we blamers have enough bait to which we must resist rising during the usual courses of our days?

    Why must there be a secret protocol with which newcomer commenters are expected nevertheless to familiarize themselves, the sole purpose of which is to tiptoe around possible subsequent Mandosian baiting?

    Why must there be a “whole tiresome thing” to be set into motion in the first place?

    Why do I continue to pose passive-voiced rhetorical questions? Why don’t I get back to work now?

  209. Virago

    First, my vote: OUT. Adios. Bannarama. See ya, sucker. Buh-bye. Sayonara. So long. Good riddance. Don’t let the door hit you on your nasty trolling *ss.

    Second:

    Though not a long-time lurker, I have read about 80-90% of all past the entries (with comments) and the FAQ. Because I condensed that reading into 3-4 days, it was easy to see how often Mandos disrupted threads and sidetracked discussions (acts which, harmless thought they seem at first glance, ultimately silence women). He did this so often and was so rarely smacked down for it that I thought, huh, must be a personal, valued friend of Twisty’s from, like, her non-internet life.

    No offense intended, Twisty.

  210. mAndrea

    MedeaOnCrack
    May 15th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
    The other reason to vote OUT is Mandos’ duplicity and backstabbing of IBTP and its host on pro-porn blogs.

    That’s a killing offense right there.
    BEGONE EVIL ONE!!

  211. josquin

    Patti,
    no need to direct me to Wikipedia to understand what a siren is. I already got it from actually reading the Odyssey, gosh, well before Wikipedia was a little spark in many a lazy “researcher’s” eye.
    My objection to your comment was the hasty jump from the original “these comments and threads are a siren song” to “WE are YOUR sirens.”
    I’m tempted to explain the difference, but believe me, at this point in the thread the effort would only get smashed upon the rocks. (If you had done your research you would know that sailors tempted by sirens ended up thusly, as opposed to being drowned.)
    -Dang, these banning bloodbaths make me grumpy-

  212. collie

    This social abuse thread triggered a flashback to when my teacher stood me up in front of my class and got everyone to trash me. I’m shaking inside. Public shunning is a tool of the patriarchy. I won’t be back.

  213. Q Grrl

    I think Mandos’ participation in this thread shows just how much work feminists have yet to do. The majority of posters and readers here wish for him to stop posting. What does he do? He ups the ante, makes Twisty the blog patriarch (through that whole ownership thing), and then rests his precious ego upon the laurels of hierarchical authority. See! In Mandos-land, Twisty is just like the guys. Hell, Mandos even *respects* her. He doesn’t respect the rest of us, but with Twisty? Double hell! She’s his token.

  214. OlderWiserFuckAlltoShowForIt

    Collie, I don’t understand you. Is there no place in the world, not even the internets, where women can get angry and say that what a man has done is bad? You can can argue that you think his comments are worthwhile but many others disagree. We’re not publicly shaming him in an arena where he is forced to be. We’re asking that our space be our space. And we are allowed to be angry about things that make us angry. Especially in our space. Did I mention that we’re allowed to be angry?

  215. vera

    Instead of banning Mandos, could we just clone B. Dagger Lee?

  216. Mandos

    Yeah because right wing libertarians and economists have no power in the world, whilst radical feminists rule OK.

    No, because *they’ve* been done to death (nothing more to say), and I exhausted the potential content in firebreathing Greek nationalists.

    Why don’t you politely say goodbye instead of waiting until the last minute when you are finally booted out the door?

    Nonono, you’re missing the point. Of *course*, I would attend my own bannage party! Why do you think this thread is still running? It is amusing *someone*, which is something I’m happy to do.

    See! In Mandos-land, Twisty is just like the guys. Hell, Mandos even *respects* her. He doesn’t respect the rest of us, but with Twisty? Double hell! She’s his token.

    You’ll notice that this blog is called. “I Blame The Patriarchy.” Not, “I Resist the Patriarchy” or even “I Have A Useful Alternative Suggestion For Replacing The Patriarchy.” This is nothing that *I* did. I’m still just playing along.

    Especially in our space. Did I mention that we’re allowed to be angry?

    Who said that this was YOUR space? If this place has an “owner”, I didn’t make the designation.

    Nice try, troll. This is right out of the troll handbook. Every single time I’ve been on a forum when a troll was outed they have responded with this exact line. Every time. Just get to the indignant flounce already.

    This was in reference to the song that I posted on the other thread. Also, I don’t do indignant flounces.

  217. Queen of Spades (nee Amaz0n)

    I vote to get rid of him. I think I can speak for many folks in saying that I’ve got better things to do with my very limited blogtime than read the pedantic, tiresome, boring nonsense of some idiot with a tedious grasp on the mechanics of the real world and a stubborn delusion about being some kind of Modern Warrior-Philosopher. No thank you.

  218. Moira

    If we’re cloning B. Dagger Lee, could I have one? Pretty please with sugar on top?

  219. Spinning Liz

    Can we clone Miss Patsy and her poodle too?

  220. SingOut

    Longtime lurker voting to ban.

    It just bugs the crap out of me when men enter feminist conversations and assert themselves as the ‘voice of reason’. Gah.

  221. MedeaOnCrack

    This thread is 219 posts.

    The thread about the man who got off with a slap on the wrist for killing his wife is 47.

    I suggest we now get back to Blaming.

  222. antonia

    I like him. Can he stay? If anything, he is a meta-troll.

  223. Cunning Allusionment?

    Mandos: I think you’re missing the point that the fact that you see the primary purpose of this blog and your participation in it as amusement is offensive to many people. Less forgivably, I’d guess that you do actually understand that, but since you can make a logical argument as to why entertainment is an important element, you persist anyway. This sort of “rules-lawyering” regardless of what the *people* you’re interacting with actually *feel* about it is the same kind of abuse that allows men to justify raping women. To totally geek out and quote one Dr. Spock: “Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.”

  224. Cunning Allusionment?

    Oh yeah, and the whole “I wouldn’t miss my own banning party” thing, is also totally self centered. By an overwhelming majority, you’ve been asked to leave. Will you persist until Twisty actually *has* to ban you, or will you just quietly stop posting. This is also similar to the “she didn’t say ‘no’ loud enough for me to take her seriously” defense. You don’t have to stick around ’till Twisty bans you.

  225. Rumblelizard

    Word, Cunning Allusionment!

  226. MzNicky

    antonia:
    A “meta-troll” is still a troll.

  227. Tatemae

    Ban him.

    I’ve been reading IBTP for a couple of years now, and as others have said, much more eloquently, every time I see one of his comments, my eyes glaze over and I have to move on. There are plenty of other intelligent people here who can tease apart and deconstruct arguments without derailing the conversation. We don’t need Mandos, not even for the occasional entertainment value.

    (Hi, longtime lurker, checking in. I stumbled here a while ago, when I was first dabbling my naive toes into feminism and feminist blogs, and Twisty is the reason I’m not just a feminist, but a baby radfem at that. So thank you, Twisty, and keep blaming.)

  228. B. Dagger Lee

    Hey! Paws off my lady friend.

    Anyone wanting to be tromped on all night long and have poo-on-a-tray in the corner of your bedroom, I’ll send you a DNA swab of the Raspulou poodle.

    It’s like having a precious Hummel figure suffering from grandiosity that smells and moves and has to be toted around everywhere.

  229. Twisty

    The verdict is in. The referendum is now closed.

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