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Jul 15 2007

Anal is the new ‘third base’

stinkhorn_mushroom.jpg
The magical world of Texas fungi provides this charmingly innappropriate illustration: a stinkhorn mushroom. The spore mass contained in the black goo smells like, well, ass. Note that the stinkhorn’s order is Phallales. Mutinus elegans, Blanco County, TX, July 2007. Don’t eat this one, Alice!

Whenever I write about how much men hate you, somebody — usually a dude, but sometimes a Mrs Nigel — always chirps up, “That’s no way to win men over to your nutty Twistolution!”

And they are right. Dudes won’t support feminism unless there’s something in it for them. In my case, they seem anxious that I behave solicitously toward them, to reassure them that radical feminists don’t really want to substantively diminish their social status.

My advocacy for women’s entitlement to domination-free lives may sometimes look good on paper to liberal ‘feminist’ dudes, but they loudly demur when it comes time for them to acknowledge that they oppress women whether they like it or not, by virtue of their participation — whether it is a voluntary participation matters not a whit — in male dominant culture. When I explain why their position is untenable, that oppression is experienced by the oppressed as hate, it is interpreted as my crossing the boundaries of feminine propriety. This makes’em mad. And they get mean, e.g. “I don’t hate women, you stupid bitch!”

These glittering examples of Western manhood appear not to grasp the irony of responding with hate to a men-hate-you argument. The justification for their subsequent personal attacks (one fellow human recently expressed his happy anticipation of my rapidly impending obituary) seems to be that I am just not obsequious enough. Insufficient obsequiosity apparently invalidates any argument made by a feminist, however shimmeringly astute it may otherwise be. As a cause, the fight against the oppression of half the human population is only supportable if it is presented with a solicitous head-tilt, a pert giggle, and an invitation to fuck you in the ass.

But hate you men do, however often certain of them wish you dead from cancer for saying so without first offering to bend over.

Sometimes I am enjoined to use a less emotionally-charged word than hate, or to recompose the statement to read “some men hate you”. Evidently the truth is too painful for these delicate sensitivos. They should, in that case, avoid at all costs this article. This riveting piece — on, coincidentally, bending over — written from the default human point of view, summarizes the metrosexual mania for anal het sex, wink-wink. As evidence in support of the men-hate-you argument, this article couldn’t be any more repellently potent; it is not the isolated ramblings of some midnight teen tubesock blogger, but in fact appears in the mainstream men’s magazine Details. You know, if I’d sat up all night with a tub of Cool Whip, a six-pack of Tab, and an 8-ball, I couldn’t have contrived a more definitive expression of our culture’s merry glorification of misogyny.

In this article you will find, replete with hilarious euphemisms*, men freely admitting that ‘demanding’ anal sex is not only considered perfectly OK, but is in fact a contumely devoutly to be wish’d. And ‘contumely’ is the operative word: it is agreed that conquest and subsequent humiliation is actually the object of the exercise. To wit:

“Once a guy has anal sex, he’s put on a pedestal by his peers,” [Philip] says. He claims he hasn’t had much trouble getting women to agree to it. “I only had to persuade two girls. [I asked] ‘Can I put it in your butt?’ At first they were like, ‘No, it will hurt.’ Then time after time of having sex with them they finally said okay. It hurt them the first time, but after that they always said they enjoyed it—if not a little, then a lot.”

And this:

“For most of my friends, it’s sort of a domination thing,” says John (not his real name), 30, a writer in New York. “[It's] basically getting someone in a position where they’re most vulnerable. My friends enjoy that and they tell their friends they did it. But it’s not like girls are ready for it—it’s something they do when they’re really drunk.”

It’s an escalation of porn culture. Since the excessively vaunted sexual revolution decreed that all women henceforth would be empowerfulized by their service to male sexuality — getting jizz in your wig is a big compliment! — too many women have been giving up the vagina too easily, and even blow jobs are hackneyed now that housewives are writing mundane marriage manuals on the subject. “Regular” het sex just isn’t brutal or insulting enough anymore. There’s no sport in it, no swaggering triumph, nothing to give men “a good story to tell over beers.” Anal sex may be “the new deal-breaker,” but it’s only a matter of time until blush is off that rose, too. If a ‘sex’ act fails to egregiously humiliate or even harm a woman, men will keep pushing the limits until they find one that does. How long until we’re reading this in mainstream magazines?

“I only had to persuade two girls. [I asked] ‘Can I shit in your mouth and mutilate you with razor blades?’ At first they were like, ‘No, it will hurt.’ It hurt them the first time, but after that they always said they enjoyed it—if not a little, then a lot.”

Now, before you anal apologists flood my inbox with your porntastic personal anecdotes, hear this: in a patriarchy, wherein one class oppresses another for its own profit, there can be no ‘consent’ between oppressor and oppressed.

___________________
*Rearguard action, take the service elevator, and grant a backstage pass are just a few of edgy-winky author Peter Rubin’s jollifications of women’s sexual slavery.

[Thanks to Stacy, who read about this at Feministing]

286 comments

13 pings

  1. Ron Sullivan

    Seems reasonable to me that every man who wants “anal” should get it.

    NB I didn’t say “‘give’ it.”

  2. Lene

    The picture alone made me nauseous…

  3. CafeSiren

    I spent the past several days with a houseguest who… well, let’s just say that he’d probagbly find this article perfectly reasonable, and female demurral as unreasonable. At the end of the visit, I felt horrible about myself, just from the proximity. And I’m feeling even more blessed that I live alone.

  4. CafeSiren

    Ah. Here it is:

    “The physicality of it, being painful or whatever, shows how comfortable the girl is with you. [...] Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it,” he says. “But only with you.”

    So, the best things about it are a woman’s willingness to suffer physical pain, and humiliation, exclusive to one person. Got it. Can’t believe I haven’t tried this yet.

  5. TP

    The constant reassurance that women really ‘like it’ is the usual male bullshit. Questioning that ‘liking’ is never done, because the revelation of what defines ‘liking it’ would probably be some dick-wilting shit.

    The whole article was porn propaganda. And as Twisty noted, it has gone mainstream. It’s not enough that porn is an epidemic. Men will not stop at that. They now want to change it from being a dirty little secret that they are ashamed of to outright humiliation of women being perfectly acceptable. The last vestiges of pretending not to hate women are starting to give way, sugar coated by glancing assertions that on line polls show that huge percentages of women like being treated like ‘disgusting pigs.’

    he pointedly stops short of romanticizing screwing a woman rectally. “Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it,” he says. “But only with you.”

    This fine young example of american manhood couldn’t even be bothered to disguise his hatred of women when interviewed by a mainstream magazine. And yet men will claim they don’t hate women.

    Knowing that I have been raised and trained to react like any other man makes me sick to my stomach. You can turn off the impulse to be a misogynist when you get to be a certain age, but you can’t ever claim that you are innocent of ever being aroused by what you know is wrong.

    Personal experience – including trying it with women – has kept me from considering this stuff something I like. But the porn culture has still made it part of my trained response, despite my own indifference to the reality. This is one way how I began to understand that misogyny is cultural, rather than natural, at least in me.

  6. Ginger Mayerson

    A man just isn’t happy unless he’s hurting a women. I’m surprised to find even that much truth in “Details” magazine. Somebody let me know when there’s a comparable article in there about pegging. Thanks.

  7. delphyne

    I always thought the women liking it thing was about men liking it but as usual projecting their feelings onto the women they abuse. It’s the same with rape, rapists always talk about their victims wanting it, they never tell the truth which is that they wanted it.

    I want to say something about the picture but I just can’t.

  8. Marcy

    Somebody let me know when there’s a comparable article in there about pegging.

    What’s pegging?

  9. Marcy

    The constant reassurance that women really ‘like it’ is the usual male bullshit.

    Well, the mere fact that she allowed something to be done to her means she likes it. The fact that it took five hours of cajoling, wheedling, and badgering to get her to agree to it doesn’t seem to figure into the equation.

    It’s all about conquest, and degradation, and hatred.

  10. Tom

    It sounds to me like these guys would rather be having sex with their male friends, since they’re obviously more concerned with impressing them than their girlfriends.

  11. Anastasia B.

    Read the article and then scroll all the way down to read the comments. Surprisingly (for a men’s magazine), blamers are in full force.

    Also, take a look at the website’s icon; until now, I have never realized how phallic the necktie is.

  12. Panic

    The huge irony (maybe it’s not irony… it’s something), of course, is that Details used to be a fairly decent gay men’s mag.

  13. Cass

    Torture- and murder-porn are going mainstream on TV, now this. It just gets better and better.

  14. LouisaMayAlcott

    Ahhh, The blamers are there grace a the excellent thread on the subject in the blame-forum over at:

    http://easypersiflage.com/blameforum/index.php

    Check it out. The invasion was orchestrated. Don’t you just love *us* ?

  15. Marytracy9

    Thanks so much, Twisty, for presenting this to us.
    There’s nothing I can say that you haven’t said already. It’s pure mysoginistic crap, and I pitty the women who can’t see it and give in to be dehumanized, abused and hurt. I, like you, will keep screaming this truth at the top of my voice until I die.

  16. medrecgal

    My immediate reaction–to both the picture and the post–was YECCCHH!! The order of the plant is very appropriate (the first thing I thought was, “That plant looks like a giant penis!”), and the post, well… let’s just say that if I was participating in that most patriarchal of activities (i.e., hetero sex of any sort), you can be DAMN sure I would never consent to a guy putting it up my ass! Sorry, that’s just too disgusting. I know more than enough about human anatomy & physiology to know that the anus was designed as an exit, NOT an entrance; therefore, anal sex violates that rule completely. You are far more likely to contract all sorts of nasty diseases (some of which are lethal) from this practice than any other sexual practice, just because of the difference between the anal mucosa and that of the mouth or vagina– the former is delicate and far more prone to small, often invisible tears that can serve as an easy portal for infection; the others are tougher and more resilient, so you’re less likely to cause tissue damage in the course of usual activity. Posts like this one make me glad to be far more interested in other aspects of life. Sex and all its trappings are overrated, IMHO…just another expression of the use and abuse of women. IBTP.

  17. Pinko Punko

    Yeah, I sense the next frontier for these assholes will be “existing orifices are not enough, real men must create their own new hole for penetration.”

  18. Sean

    If “Anal is the new ‘third base,’” then what the hell is a home run?

    This is all way too similar to an inverse of Freudian childhood sexual development.

  19. tinfoil hattie

    On a different blog, I read that this article was an example of how Details magazine hates men, not an example of how men hate women.

    And that mushroom picture is breath-takingly, mind-bogglingly AWESOME. HOW do you find these things? Twisty, you’re a genius.

  20. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    Brilliant essay. Day-um.

  21. Rugosa

    I think you can say that by portraying men as unmitigated jerks Details is also expressing hatred of men. In real life, men have many patriarchy-bred faults but (at least in my life, thank goddess) they are not likely to say out loud, for publication in a mainstream magazine, “Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it,””

    If you think that’s what mainstream guys think, you’ve got a very low opinion of them.

  22. Twisty

    Details, Rugosa, is hardly a niche-fetish publication, from which fact I infer that its content is designed to titillate mainstream men. You will note that the men quoted in the article are all anonymous, so clearly there is still a degree of shame involved in calling a woman a disgusting pig, but these dudes are portrayed to the magazine’s audience of regular, everyday fellas as regular, everyday fellas.

    In other words, I do have a low opinion of mainstream guys. It takes an unusual, gifted, and dedicated (i.e non-mainstream) guy to stand up in a roomful of dudes and say “porn is the graphic representation of rape, and therefore it sucks.” Which is why you will rarely, if ever, witness this in real life.

  23. Vera

    The original title of the article was “Is it OK to demand anal sex?” Apparently someone with editorial power thought adjusting the title would, I don’t know: clean things up a bit? Make the article less horific? Some of the blamers’ comments refer to the orginal title.

  24. TP

    In real life, men have many patriarchy-bred faults but (at least in my life, thank goddess) they are not likely to say out loud, for publication in a mainstream magazine, “Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it,”"

    If you think that’s what mainstream guys think, you’ve got a very low opinion of them.

    It’s nice to think positively of men, even though they feel this way about women. I think it’s culturally ingrained in men to feel this way, and depending on the individual capacity for empathy and understanding, every man, no matter how disgustingly misogynist, knows he doesn’t have to feel this way, but that it is what is expected of him, though many men have little or no idea of how bestial and hateful it makes them.

    That’s why you see gradations of honesty in men about women. Sure, lots of men struggle with the sickness of being a man because they know somewhere down deep in their little baby souls that there is something terribly wrong about feeling this way about women. And they can easily learn to hide these feelings from women, who have absolutely no inclination to try to understand how men can sink so low, even though they see traces of all the cultural forces that cram it down our throats every day.

    Just as men find it almost impossible to grasp the idea of regarding women as human beings, so do women find it hard to grasp the idea that men have the seeds of humanity in them, but it is smothered by the terrible weight of how our culture teaches them to be a man.

    In the privileged confines of my own social circles I would be hard pressed to find a man who would admit to such savagery outright to any woman. Yet I also know, because I am a man, that many of them would laugh at it and think it was funny once among other men. I and some of my other friends wouldn’t, but we are far from the mainstream.

    The important thing I’m trying to say is that even the nicest liberal guy in the world knows that the way he sees this is from a position of smug superiority rather than as a victim of oppression, and our slight gasps of outrage are relatively lightweight because of our position of privilege. You can get it, perfectly, yeah, but if you’re a guy, you never really get it bad.

  25. slythwolf

    I hate that men hate me. It terrifies and infuriates me. I hate that they can say these things and immediately render me frozen with shock, anger, and fear. I hate that they use these attitudes to control me and others like me. I hate that they laugh about it. And most of all I hate that they pursue orgasm by degrading and harming fellow human beings.

  26. Toonces

    Articles like these just turn me more and more off sex to the point I don’t even feel the urge anymore, because this article glaringly represents the prevailing attitudes of men in the world toward their female sexual partners. If I can’t have sex with men who actually respect me as a whole human being attached to my pussy and treat me with genuine affection, fondness, and respect then I am quite happy to forego it altogether. Better that than being consumed,spat out, and laughed at over beers with his boys just so some dood can get his rocks off and place himself higher in the pecking(pecker?) order of his pack. Besides, it isn’t hard to find an orgasm if I really want one, and men aren’t needed for that. I just really marvel at how much these guys take and push and take and push, without really giving anything back to their partners, especially respect. Entitlement, much?

  27. banshee

    “porn is the graphic representation of rape, and therefore it sucks.”

    Could you please explain this a little more? How is it representing rape and not sex? Doesn’t it depend on what kind of porn it is? I’m guessing this claim is based on the argument that in a patriarchy, all sex is rape because consent can never be freely given on the part of the oppressed, as you mentioned above. Is this correct?

    This post reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from the Queer Nation Manifesto:
    “I hate straights:

    I hate straight people who can’t listen to queer anger without saying, ‘Hey, all straight people aren’t like that. I’m straight, too, you know.’ As if their egos don’t get enough stroking or protection in this arrogant, heterosexist world. Why must we take care of them, in the midst of our just anger brought on by their fucked up society? Why add the reassurance of ‘Of course I don’t mean you. You don’t act that way.’ Let them figure out for themselves whether they deserve to be included in out anger.”

  28. Twisty

    Banshee, porn is the graphic representation of women’s oppression, which oppression is achieved via the persistent and chronic daily threat of rape or other violence. Furthermore, the women ‘acting’ in porn films are prostituted women, ‘prostitution’ being the patriarchy’s eupehmism for pay-for-rape. So yes, it has something to do with the inability of a woman, who lacks full human agency, to consent to sex in the same sense that a man does.

    Thanks for asking. And thanks for quoting from the QNM. By decree of the dominant culture, all oppressed groups are required to spend 90% of their time reassuring individual members of the dominant culture.

  29. ginmar

    When you hate men back they always act like you did it first, because they never accept that their insults and hatred and disgusting behavior is hateful. Their hatred is nothing, to them; they think you’re supposed to be delighted they’re paying attention to you, even if it’s hateful.

  30. Sean

    Banshee said, “I’m guessing this claim is based on the argument that in a patriarchy, all sex is rape because consent can never be freely given on the part of the oppressed, as you mentioned above. Is this correct?”

    Nope. More like: Porn presents multiple parties, with one party wanting specifically to do something TO the other party(-ies), which is why “consent” is only achieved through monetary exchange, ie. without the cash, the party wouldn’t consent. Since doing something TO a party, rather than the cooperative WITH each other (which mindset sidesteps consent, by the way), is essentially rape (and at least represents a rape mentality). Ergo, porn is “the graphic representation of rape.”

    Let us remember Dworkin, and how she never said “all sex is rape.” Instead, she said something like “just most of it, but it’s not really all that difficult for anyone to remove themselves from this rape mindset; it’s just that most people (especially men) don’t even try.” And now, as then, this still rings true.

  31. Sean

    Twisty got there before me. (Hu)Man is she quick!

  32. Daisy

    he pointedly stops short of romanticizing screwing a woman rectally. “Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it,” he says. “But only with you.”

    Actually, I think men think this about ALL sex acts with women, not just anal.

  33. ginmar

    They do. Which is why they just don’t give a shit about most women. They know they can’t have sex with all women, so they don’t have to be nice to most of us.

  34. Dawn Coyote

    What really bugs me about this article is the underlying implication that in order for a man to REALLY enjoy sex, the woman has to be compromised in some manner. She’s got to be giving something up reluctantly, through pain and humiliation.

    This can be true of all sex acts, not just anal [as Daisy says, above], because it’s not about sex, it’s about power and conquest.

    TMI WARNING!As a young woman, I had lots of experience being on the wrong end of male conquest, having sex that was shitty for reasons that had nothing to do with actual shit. I only started enjoying a wider range of sex practices after I was old enough to not feel compromised by them, once I had a clear sense of my autonomy in the bedroom. Anal sex is fantastic if your partner knows what s/he’s doing. Sometimes that takes some patient instruction on my part, but it first requires an inherent sensitivity on the part of one’s partner if it’s going to be a worthwhile endeavor. You can’t teach that kind of sensitivity, or if you can, I don’t have that much patience, so I just don’t have sex with people like that anymore.TMI OVER

    What really pisses me off about this article is that it denies women pleasure in sex. I find that profoundly offensive, in the same way I find FGM offensive.

  35. Tuba Terry

    If the mainstream is bad, the military is worse. I’m glad I’m leaving it soon. There was some statistic passed around at a recent briefing that domestic violence in the military is twice as high as the rest of the country. I can’t really say it’s surprising at all, but it still sucks. It’s sucked being in a position where I feel like I can’t change anything and I’d probably get mauled for trying.

    Eh. I’m not sure what I’m trying to say here. “Sorry for perpetuating the problem, but I agree with you and good luck with the fight”? It still feels weak.

    Thanks for the writing, I’m glad someone else sees the problem and can articulate it intelligently. I never figured that last bit out.

  36. Elaine Vigneault

    That picture is hilarious!

  37. preying mantis

    “What’s pegging?”

    Generally, it’s anal sex in which a woman penetrates a man with a strap-on.

  38. Elaine Vigneault

    Somebody let me know when there’s a comparable article in there about pegging.

    What’s pegging?

    Since no one else answered Marcy, pegging is when a woman wears a strap-on and has anal with her partner.

    This quote from the Details article is really telling, emphasis added:

    So if you can’t be certain whether the woman’s enjoying herself or just submitting to peer pressure, and the act itself can be unpleasant, what’s the motivation for demanding it? For Todd, so his friend says, it was about maintaining emotional distance. Albert says it’s about enhancing the intimacy between two people. But the more plausible explanation is that it’s about accessibility—and instant gratification. Now that anal sex has been propelled higher on the mainstream menu by a hypersexualized culture and the proliferation of porn, some men can’t help but order it.

    What the fuck!?

    To men who demand anal:
    If she’s not enjoying it, fucking stop. Er, stop fucking.
    If you’re doing it for peer pressure, stop.
    If it grosses you out, don’t do it.
    But most importantly, you don’t get to demand sex. Ever. Demanding any kind of sex is rape. Guys who demand anal are rapists.

    If this article were really about sex, they wouldn’t have used violent language like “demand.”

  39. La di Da

    So wrong on so many levels.

    1. Degrades all women generally
    2. Degrades women who don’t like or want anal sex and who have the temerity to refuse demands
    2a. Degrades women who don’t like or want anal sex but are “persuaded”
    3. Degrades women who do like anal sex by implying women must have no active role in choosing their sexual activities
    3. Works against men who are trying to escape the misogynist mindset
    4. Encourages men who think it’s their right to demand sex
    5. Altogether shiteful and hateful

    Hoo-fuckin’-ray.

  40. pisaquari

    “it’s only a matter of time until blush is off that rose, too”

    Preciselyism.

    The “TABOO” concept needs to be obliterated all together. This naughty bite-my-lower-lip-construct is made entirely by the P for the P, and exists only to puppet-master all matters of sexuality.

    Nothing about sex should be taboo. Feeling “naughty” is the critical objective of Rape Culture: you’re not *supposed* to be doing this, but you reeeaaallllyy want to. Well there goes consent.

    Painful anal? Rape and torture porn? Well we had it coming to us!
    Poor guys, it’s taken them thousands of years of unwrapping to get this far–not even 100 years ago men were only getting to lift tafetta smocks and gaze upon our ankles to get their SuperSoaker-HeMANBoner and now they’re unwrapping our *skin*.

    At this rate, I give us maybe another 100 years of existence. I wonder if we will be missed in the Age of Extinction.

  41. Twisty

    Nice blaming, pisaquari.

  42. Dawn Coyote

    What pisaquari said.

    This topic has inspired a new sexual fantasy for me:

    Some wicked-smart lady scientist develops a roofie antidote—some kind of alkaloid that the partay girl can injest pre-party which is harmless to her, but which renders unconscious any male engaging in sex with her. When she regains her judgment enough to determine whether or not the sex was consensual, she can decide to either wake him up with a bit of fellatio, or gently extract his testes from his nutsack and insert them in the orifice of her choice.

  43. Edith

    I think all sex is forced upon women in a gross way. Compulsory anal sex is just slightly more obviously so.

  44. Radalan

    “in a patriarchy, wherein one class oppresses another for its own profit, there can be no ‘consent’ between oppressor and oppressed.”

    That applies to making babies, too, right?

  45. Lara

    What must a woman do in reaction other than tearing out her hair in insane fury? I couldn’t even read the article word for word. I looked at the photo for it and my jaw just dropped….are these fuckers for real? I read articles like these, I hear and read men saying this shit, and then when I am out in public and I see men and older boys…I have to wonder….how many of them are rapists?

  46. banshee

    Sean: “Porn presents multiple parties, with one party wanting specifically to do something TO the other party(-ies), which is why “consent” is only achieved through monetary exchange, ie. without the cash, the party wouldn’t consent. Since doing something TO a party, rather than the cooperative WITH each other (which mindset sidesteps consent, by the way), is essentially rape (and at least represents a rape mentality). Ergo, porn is “the graphic representation of rape.”

    I don’t know too much about the financial aspect of porn, but I thought both parties got paid? I wonder how many men go into porn for the sex, and how many women go into for the money. I know that in the case of prostitution, a lot of the time women get involved out of financial need, but porn is somewhat more regulated, so I’d imagine that ideology (and not financial desperation) plays a bigger part in porn than prostitution. Not that it makes it more legitimate if the women are doing it because they want to than for money; a lot of that ‘want” is culturally created. In fact, if you look at the wikipedia page on rape victims, a significant portion of these women went on to do porn, which really says something.

  47. Octogalore

    “Sometimes I am enjoined to use a less emotionally-charged word than hate, or to recompose the statement to read “some men hate you”. Evidently the truth is too painful for these delicate sensitivos. They should, in that case, avoid at all costs this article.”

    The article is odious, as so many in Details or GQ are. The idea of sex acts as ways to dominate is absolutely somewhere on the rape spectrum.

    I’m still not sure how the article proves that “some men hate you” is not the correct formulation. The article is in a mainstream men’s mag, but there are men who find the topic and presentation repellent. And not because “the truth is too painful” for them, but because they actually do find it repellent.

    I’m not sure that having all men acknowledge that they are oppressing women, even if by some definition it’s true, is as helpful as making the ones who are actively doing so in avoidable ways to stop.

  48. CafeSiren

    Choice comment over at the original article:

    “By the way, ITS NOT ALWAYS PAINFUL. After the first few times it doesn’t hurt anymore. In addition to that SOME women LIKE the pain. You SERIOUSLY need to get over your crusade against “coercive” sex as if thats the only type of sex that exists.”

    No comment needed.

  49. Toonces

    Wow, CafeSiren. I don’t think I could have read that in its original context without going blind with rage. If that’s the asshat’s attitude, then I would invite him to bend over while I get the vaseline and my 10 inch thick black rubber dildo. After all, it isn’t always painful! He said so himself!

  50. stekatz

    Nice to have you back Twisty, and glad you brought your A game to this one. Nothing to add that hasn’t already been well said. Blame on.

  51. Sean

    Banshee: I can see how I could’ve been more clear about what I meant by “parties.” I meant not only the folks on camera but also those off, as in, the production companies. They technically pay the “actors” to 1)act, although if we take Stephen Dedalus’s definition of pornography (leading to a kinesis–jacking-off–rather than a stasis), this acting doesn’t really count for much art-wise, and 2)to be filmed. The second is probably the stronger defense of porn, since the participants are, according to the studios, being paid to be filmed rather than to have sex that eventually induces sexual gratification, or a variant of prostitution. Thus, the actors are doing something the wouldn’t normally do aside from the money. From a feminist perspective, this is akin to coercion and eventually leads to rape, whence the term “rape culture.”

    Of course, the main response to this is “Aren’t all jobs like this?” And this is where Marx is helpful in his analysis that all labour (and as Engels would put, specifically labour as opposed to work)is forced. Marx makes the point that in pre-capitalism, forced labour was called “slavery.” In capitalism, then, the working class is, for all practical purposes, enslaved. I think we need the same kind of dual terms that Engels proposes for feminism: coerced sex is “fucking” (as forced labour is slavery) and “free” sex is simply “sex” (as work is when the worker is not seen as a commodity; slavery has the slave as literally a proto-commodity, whereas capitalism has the labourer’s labour as commodity). Hence, while the oppressed class is forced into labour, they are also coerced into fucking. However, work and sex are still possible–and that possibility, along with availability, is necessary to “the pursuit of happiness”–but will only be available untainted and widespread following the revolution. And let us remember that Marx did not advocate for a necessarily violent revolution. He saw Western political systems–including democracy–as tools to be used for said revolution.

  52. Cathy

    So true, pisaquari – also explains the increasing obscenity/violence in rap and music videos, movies, etc.

    Long ago, some comedienne joked about a woman wanting to know what she should say to increase her partner’s sexual pleasure, and of course the answer was, “Ouch.”

    Glad you’re back, Twisty. Folks were getting worried. Hope you are well, in spite of the never-ending supply of misogyny.

  53. KMTberry

    Pisaquari: I MUST SAY that “Super-Soaker HeMANBoner” is a very WELL TURNED PHRASE!

  54. Ruth

    Feministing has a link up under “Friday Gross Out” to an article at the Washington City Paper about up and comers in the Washington DC area. Probably not main stream but not without main stream influence. Here’s a couple of *charming* quotes from “LNS” chats.

    “RE: Figuring out if girls are sluts
    Posted By: farmer john on 04-02-2007 9:57 pm
    all women are whores at heart…they will always slut themselves out at some point in their lives to get something…especially something shiny and expensive”

    “RE: optimal number for a woman
    Posted By: higher the better on 10-23-2006 1:39 pm
    I prefer high #’s. It usually means they really like to have sex, and that they are very good at it. And the idea that you might be exposing yourself to a serious disease is thrilling and really gets my blood flowing.”

    The reporter notes one of the men she attempted to interview demanded a hand job.

  55. therealUK

    I hate that they pursue orgasm by degrading and harming fellow human beings.

    A good phrase to translate “pro-porn”:

    “pro – pursuit of orgasm by degrading and harming fellow human beings “

  56. Blandina

    Sean, I think I could understand the difference between fucking and sex better if you explained the nuances Marx & Engels’ theories of labor within the context of the patriarchy while getting pronged in pre and post revolution porn video scenarios. Viva la Twistolution.

  57. tinfoil hattie

    Ruth,

    The Washington City Paper is definitely bordering on “mainstream” for the DC area. It’s got a really wide circulation, because it’s free and available in all kinds of different places. (If you’re from DC & I’m stating the obvious to you, I apologize.)

    I HATE and DESPISE the Washington City Paper because every single issue, without fail, is By Dude Nation For Dude Nation on how to hook up, get laid, discard women, etc. I HATE it. It is consistently the most misogynist soft-core porn disguised as oh-so-hip-and-liberal “journalism.” Of course it carries Dan Savage’s columnn. Naturally.

  58. Kim

    What worries me most about this increase in anal among het couples is the increased risk for HIV. I would betcha, especially with younger couples and certainly when alcohol is involved, couples who would normally use condoms to prevent pregnancy if nothing else, might throw this precaution out the window, the risk of pregnancy now being completely removed.

    I do wonder if any of this Anal is the New Vaginal! is sensationalized, much in the way the media had us believing all teenagers trotted off to “Rainbow Parties” a few years back. Not saying it is, but you always have to wonder.

    Taking Details at its word, however, I wonder if the increase in anal among het couples is responsible in any way for the recent increase in HIV/AIDS in married het women.

    Wouldn’t if have been nice, if along with this Everyone’s Doing It! article, Details would have published some stats on how HIV is 5 times easier to transmit during anal sex than vaginal, and a reminder on how long (potentially HIV carrying) sperm can live in the body. That, while no, you won’t get pregnant, KEEP USING THOSE CONDOMS, because your increase for contracting the HIV virus is increased.

  59. Kim

    Also, I agree with Dawn Coyote: “in order for a man to REALLY enjoy sex, the woman has to be compromised in some manner. She’s got to be giving something up reluctantly, through pain and humiliation.”

    Or: the message in the Details article appears to be, if a woman REALLY digs you, she’ll let you fuck her in the ass! = STUD.
    Or: You got yourself a “pornstar!” girlfriend! = STUD.
    And: but she only performs this “pornstar” behavior for your studly ass. So, she’s not, thank goodness, a SLUT.
    And: Sure it might hurt her — but that’s how much she digs you!

    That’s what I get from the Details’ article.
    I’ve had a hate/hate relationship with them for over 19 years.
    Beginning on the day I sent them a letter in protest to a boot ad which depicted a woman licking the floor.

    That said, I refrain from passing judgement upon consenting adults who enjoy the act.

  60. Violet

    It’s no coincidence that “being fucked over” and “taking it up the ass” are synonymous with the most egregious examples of deceit and betrayal. Somehow I don’t picture the average dude reader of ‘Details’ magazine coming home and announcing “Hey honey, I got fucked up the ass today” as a slangy derivative of “I just got a raise” or “Guess who just won the lottery?”.

    Notice, too, how “bitch” has replaced the homophobic slur “cocksucker” as the most derogatory term a man can call another man. In heterodude terms, women are lower than “faggots” and as such, deserve to be brutalized and violated for the mere “thrill”. Or to put it more simply: why go out and bash “fags” when you can commit your own little hate crimes in the comfort of your own home?

    If you don’t believe that anal sex is the pinnacle of the woman-hating experience, try asking your bitch (oops, I mean “man”) if he would submit to an on-camera fisting – or at least a little pole dance in the Vinnie’s Secret “mangerie” you bought him for Christmas. Unless he’s a Republican, chances are, he will run from you faster than you can wave your He-tachi Magic Wand.

  61. Sid

    “Now, before you anal apologists flood my inbox with your porntastic personal anecdotes, hear this: in a patriarchy, wherein one class oppresses another for its own profit, there can be no ‘consent’ between oppressor and oppressed.”

    Simply not true.
    The oppressed can always refuse, can always fight back. the fact that it is a lost cause is by the by.

    Consent is not about what you actually want, it’s not about fairness. It’s a technicality, it’s about permission and your position in the world and whether or not something is worth the repercussions. On either side.

    Were you to say that there cannot be any reconciliation between oppressor and oppressed you would get your point across but the oppressed can always be sycophantic for the sake of lessening the force of the oppression.

    Being scared shitless into submission =/= being beaten into it.

    Also a desire for dominance =/= hate.

    The two are distinct emotions. One is about ego pure and simple (one oppresses so one can revel in one’s own superiority) the other is about the target’s suffering (one harms because one has a need to see another suffer. The focus of the emotion shifts).

    Dominance is bout one’s self. Hatred is about the target.

  62. Mar Iguana

    “I’m not sure that having all men acknowledge that they are oppressing women, even if by some definition it’s true, is as helpful as making the ones who are actively doing so in avoidable ways to stop.” Octopussygalore

    ZZZZZZZZZZZ

  63. Simonne

    Well shit, this made me cry. It was weird, I read and cried and then I cried harder and now I just feel in complete despair. I mean I know that this is happening, but, oh, it’s just revolting and so disappointing. I’m such an optimist and I really struggle with this stuff, and yet this is part of why I’m here, and so I have to wade my way through it and I have to fight and I have to stop crying now.
    (Twisty, are you an author? You should be.)

  64. Twisty

    Hey Mar, I get that you always violently disagree with Octogalore, but how about a little less of the name-calling? Refute her argument or put a sock in it.

  65. Dawn Coyote

    Last night, in my eagerness to champion the benefits of anal sex, I forgot to say that I find it both loathesome and pitiful that someone would wish for your demise, Twisty.

    I don’t know how thick your skin is, but mine is not so thick that I don’t get my feelings hurt when someone says something nasty to me, even when it’s some inbred fuckwit on the internet.

    I’m sorry you’re on the receiving end of such vitriol, but I’m not sorry that you do what you do. You can take comfort in the fact that you made that person decidedly uncomfortable. It’s encouragement, really. Blame on.

  66. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Ruth,

    Here in Cleveland we have The Scene, which is the same as your Washington City Paper. It’s free and widely available. I quit reading it after they published an article about boning fat chicks and cleverly dumping them. (There was a too-too clever pejorative name for the technique, but my mind has mercifully blocked it out.)

    And if anal is the new third base, what constitutes a home run? Fisting?

    The fungus photo is genius, even if the color scheme is a little alarming.

  67. slythwolf

    You know, I really am starting to wonder how long it will be “But baby, if you really loved me you would let me chop off your hand!”

  68. rachel

    Out of curiosity, have you been holding onto that photo in anticipation of an entry re: anal sex?

  69. slythwolf

    Should read “how long until it will be”. I’m smart.

  70. Twisty

    Rachel, I must say I am proud of that mushroom. I was out stomping around at El Rancho Deluxe the other day when lo, there it was. I’d never seen this species in real life before, and it freaked me the fuck out. I mean, it absolutely did not register in my brain as any kind of categorizable earthly object. Miniature pool float? Discarded sex aid? But what would these things be doing in a remote cranny of my personal rancho? It was 8 inches long, the most ridiculous shade of bright pink, and, well, the appallingly smelly goo was freakish. My temporary inability to even broadly classify the thing as animal, vegetable, or mineral was super-disconcerting to my giant ego. Fortunately, I am the world’s most brilliant woodsperson, and the scales eventually fell from my eyes. I did a triumphal mycological victory dance when I realized it was a very fresh stinkhorn. Usually, by the time you come across a stinkhorn, flies have already made off with the stinky goo and they look far less hilarious, so I was quite lucky that this one had only just very recently ‘blossomed’.

    Yeah, I’m a geek.

    Did I plan the anal post as an excuse to publish the picture? No, it was just an unhappy coincidence.

  71. rachel

    It seems considerably grander than an ‘unhappy coincidence.’ If I were given to yogi zen talk, I’d wonder if it was an unhappy sign from the unhappy universe about the unhappy state of thins. At any rate, the narrative of initial befuddlement and eventual recognition of something in a pure state, unclouded by the inevitable dressings of surroundings (flies in this case) works nicely in a meta way with the narrative of the post itself. Minus the glee of a victory dance, of course.

  72. rachel

    “the unhappy state of thins” = teehee.

  73. TP

    I had one more comment, a cynical one. I’m actually glad that men are starting to spew this kind of misogyny out loud.

    I can guess at how hard it is for a young and innocent blamer who might love a few men and think they are incapable of this kind of talk. I’m unwilling to believe it myself, even though I know better. Men will loudly claim to be astonished and appalled by this kind of talk in front of women they love.

    But men think it’s OK to compartmentalize these thoughts. They think that as long as they keep it in the realm of ‘jokes’ (take that, you humorless feminists!) or ‘fantasies’ that it’s OK to think of women this way. They think they have it under control, so it’s harmless and nothing for women to complain about.

    Anyone here will be screaming with rage as they read this, because it’s a perfect example of how deeply entrenched misogyny is in our culture. And how many blamers have heard that crap before, over and over?

    So the next time some nice guy tells you that you are overreacting to feminist cant, you now have a concrete example of blatant woman-hating to show him. So men don’t hate women, eh? I suppose they love them because they are disgusting pigs, just for them?

    The hypersexuality of modern man is highly dependent on humiliation to stimulate the artificial level of arousal men think they need to be manly.

    More important than anything else (why am I so logorrheic?) I just like the idea that smart women are going to wake up, the more they see this kind of blatant, unquestionable misogyny around them every day. The more women who become open to feminism by seeing these mainstream revelations of just how bestial men have learned to become, the better.

  74. Ganza

    I sometimes try look at examples of women-hatred in terms of trends (after I get over the outrage and horror, which, sadly, takes less and less time as I get more used to is ubiquitousness.) Someone pointed out that this article reflects male sexual domination as something that men are trying to posit as mainstream, acceptable, and something they can stop being ashamed of. They want to a) reduce women to compliant sexual objects and b) brag about their subjugation to their friends without feeling like pigs. I agree, but I also wonder what effect this will have on feminist discourse on a broader scale. Is it possible that by being honest (and crude as all hell) these men are unwittingly advancing the public dialogue? We can point to this example (and seemingly to an ever growing body of examples) of men championing their hatred of women as a sign that women-hating is still strongly rooted in the modern patriarchy. If, by contrast, this disgusting article did not appear, and the interviewees maintained that they did not hate women while shamefully keeping their violent sexual fantasies a secret, it would be harder to discuss this persistent misogyny in public discourse. So while the writers and speakers of this article still deserve our contempt, does their brazen ownership of their women-hating sexuality actually serve as a tool with which to better facilitate public feminist dialogue?

    This question came to me after I read the wonderful blaming on this comments page. I thought: Damn. These asshats in the article have helped these blamers make some really solid arguments against the patriarchy. Not even the don’t-blame-me-i-don’t-hate-women crowd could deny this article as a sign of what we’ve been trying to convince everyone for so long.

  75. Ganza

    heh, TP, I promise that I didn’t plagiarize you. It actually took me 20 minutes to write my comment (I balance my blaming with doing tasks at my job, so it can take me a while sometimes.)

  76. kcb

    It’s no coincidence that “being fucked over” and “taking it up the ass” are synonymous with the most egregious examples of deceit and betrayal. Somehow I don’t picture the average dude reader of ‘Details’ magazine coming home and announcing “Hey honey, I got fucked up the ass today” as a slangy derivative of “I just got a raise” or “Guess who just won the lottery?”.

    When that day comes, Violet, I am going to run like hell.

    Twisty, thank you for explaning why I was so pissed all the time when I was in college, dating guys who read and believed crap like Details. Besides offering retroactive validation for old broads like me, you’re providing an important voice in the porn wilderness for the young ‘uns.

  77. Marcy

    I hate that men hate me. It terrifies and infuriates me. I hate that they can say these things and immediately render me frozen with shock, anger, and fear. I hate that they use these attitudes to control me and others like me. I hate that they laugh about it. And most of all I hate that they pursue orgasm by degrading and harming fellow human beings.

    Hear! Hear!

  78. sam

    Somehow I don’t picture the average dude reader of ‘Details’ magazine coming home and announcing “Hey honey, I got fucked up the ass today” as a slangy derivative of “I just got a raise” or “Guess who just won the lottery?”.

    After seeing the way the sexist, racist word pimp has come to popularly mean “very positive and cool” in the past 10 years I am willing to believe anything is possible. 1997 was not that long ago and Eminem’s career had yet to take flight with the release of 1999′s The Slim Shady LP.

    It’s easy to forget progress in women’s rights can be undone quickly. In 1776 American women were allowed to vote if they met certain criteria, but eleven years later in 1787 all states except New Jersey revoked women’s voting rights. New Jersey stopped letting women vote twenty years after that in 1807, and it would take a century and millions of women’s efforts great and small to wrest the vote back again.

  79. stacy

    Ganza and TP: go to your bookshelves and pull out your copy of Sexual Politics by Kate Millet. Read and weep. There is nothing new under the sun.

  80. teffie-phd

    “You know, if I’d sat up all night with a tub of Cool Whip, a six-pack of Tab, and an 8-ball, I couldn’t have contrived a more definitive expression of our culture’s merry glorification of misogyny.”

    Twisty, you turn my crank the way you turn a phrase.

    Glad you’re back (even with scary fungi).

  81. Cass

    Men, by and large, don’t get fucked; they do the fucking. As Andrea Dworkin observed: “Man fucks woman; subject verb object.”

    And yes, its been a very good summer for fungi here.

  82. Joanna

    An odd effect of the way my browser combines the title of the post with the name of the blog when you click on the comments link is the fact that I can now read
    Anal is the new ‘third base’ at I Blame the Patriarchy.

  83. yankee transplant

    I have nothing to add beyond my (redundant and)shameless love of this blog and its author

  84. PhysioProf

    “I’m not sure that having all men acknowledge that they are oppressing women, even if by some definition it’s true, is as helpful as making the ones who are actively doing so in avoidable ways to stop.”

    It is the silent approbation of the passive majority who benefit from patriarchy that enables patriarchy to persist. Focusing on elimination of only the most obvious, physically explicit, acts of oppression is insufficient if one’s goal is to eliminate patriarchy.

  85. finnsmotel

    I just wish people would stop using the word “anal” to mean fastidious. They are trying to be clever and all I’m left with is a very disturbing visual image.

  86. Paula

    Twisty, never, never, never back down from your “men hate women” arguments.

    This semi-concealed loathing is the core fact of women’s existence in “their” world and in fact the only way most of our lives, professional and personal, make any sense.

    And I say this as someone who bakes, sews, types, and has been married for over 30 years (that’s cumulative; two different patriarchs). Every time something puzzling happens in a patriarchal interaction, any woman past puberty who thinks, “Well, they DO hate us” as the first explanation will not be far off the mark.

    I don’t why young women are so resistant to knowing this, as I once was, but unfortunately they are. Too bad. They would start making better life choices almost the instant they start keeping this basic fact in mind.

  87. DeAnander

    Twisty Rocks.

    Here’s the Librul Solution to the problem of horrible men:

    Women Need to Learn to Separate Love and Sex — so that we can get off on sleeping with men who hate us, apparently…

    deathless prose from one male commenter: After 14 months in Nam and a lot of five-dollar girls, in 1969 I created my own game. I learned that I really like the naked female body. I did not care what head game the females were into as long as they played by my rule. One hour off and a half an hour on and I do not kiss any hairy things. I was amazed in the early seventies how many girls would call me up just so I could talk them into shaving. So I guess they liked my rule.

    Notice the recurring male assumptions: women are required to play by male rules; women’s bodies are disgusting and require modification in order to be acceptable; and women secretly love being told what to do by men.

    Scroll down searching for DeAnander to find my mini-rant on this appalling (perhaps even more appalling than the Details drek, because more insidious) article. Excerpt: pleeeze. why are a-net’s articles on sex and love so often so stupid? could it be because the reality of the minefield of sex and marriage under patriarchy (“date rape,” prostitution, incest, workplace harassment, female poverty, abusive husbands, abandoned 1st wives, unavailable abortion services, STDs, unfaithful men, double standards, insane beauty standards, etc) is just too painful to confront head-on?

    Thank goodness for IBTP. If the MSM are the “lapdog press” kowtowing to the merchants of death, then the Librul Media are the “lapdance press” kowtowing to the pimps, panders, and johns/rapists.

  88. susanw

    This disgusting article may well be a blessing in disguise. For time out of mind men have insisted that women love huge, hard dicks interminably pounding our vaginas, that we being brutalized in the way they like to brutalize us.. If we object, then we must be frigid, man-haters who don’t enjoy sex, their definition of sex being radically different from ours. The mainstreaming of anal may actually strike a blow for universal rectal parity. While men will continue to argue that women enjoy having our alien vaginas abused, rectums (recti ?) provide equal opportunity access and the chance for a little one to one comparison data testing.
    I shall now buy a larger handbag, all the better to pack an enormous, rock-hard dildo. As a feminist and veteran patriarchy blamer, I long since rejected the “Ladies First” convention, and, in the interest of coed asshole pain threshold testing, will suggest to any man that this constitutes foreplay and some real world sex education. Any other type of sexual activity might be negotiable after my arm gives out, if he’s still in the mood.

  89. Jezebella

    Finnsmotel, for THAT you get to blame Sigmund Freud.

    For Sigmund Freud in general, one blames the patriarchy.

  90. slythwolf

    I thought “anal” as “fastidious and kind of uptight” had to do with “analytical”. Of course I have no idea what the hell I’m talking about, so.

  91. Tigs

    Naw it has to do with Freudian phases.
    If you’ve got problems at the anal fixation phase it will produce certain neuroses versus if you have interruptions at the oral or genital phases—
    so says the big F. Ask Anna Freud about how fucked up any and all of this may be.

  92. Iris

    Also, about Sid:

    I used to date a Dude who made arguments similar to Sid’s [and Mandos, if anyone remembers those shenanigans] when we had discussions about institutionalized racism, dudely hatred, etc. They would become hopelessly, infuriatingly focused on tiny linguistic disagreements, supposedly because they had massive logical and theoretical implications. But it never progressed beyond that; the discussions became prolonged shouting matches over women’s actual experiences versus his dudely, individualistic logic.

    The the dissection of privilege and oppression became derailed because , gasp: he didn’t get it! He didn’t experience it! He was a white, capitalist, middle class, educated dude! Since he had no emotional investment in my oppression, it was all about theory, logic, language, and my ‘flawed approach’ to the subject.

    Ugh.

  93. Mar Iguana

    Twisty, I thought someone here said the name I used was one this person uses on other boards. If I’m mistaken, I do apologize.

  94. Iris

    Whoops, this post goes before my last one:

    Hear, hear! Physio Prof! Why make the outwardly less egregious offenders admit thier collusion in rape culture/racism/capitalism/classism etc.? That would hurt their feelings! And actually rid us of the P.

    Twisty, nice pic! Michigan has been a mycological wasteland this season. Drought!

    “but the oppressed can always be sycophantic for the sake of lessening the force of the oppression.

    Being scared shitless into submission =/= being beaten into it. -SID”

    Yeah! Women should have to relinquish their identity (who needs personhood? become a wife/mother/whore) and becoming fawning parasites (pornstars)to survive in our society! Twisty must be off her nut! We DO have choices!

    Sid, how does this inane statement (Mandos, anyone?) in anyway effect or nullify Twisty’s point that women live in a system of coercion and sexual violence (are you leaving out all the women who actually are ‘beaten into it’, or are you completely disconnected with reality? Particularly those women who ‘choose’ to be in the ‘business’ of humiliating themselves for the pleasure of men.

  95. Iris

    Oh my, I left one end out of parens, there. And it is “any way”. Gah.

  96. thebewilderness

    Criminy you guys, I exercised incredible self restraint in ignoring the mandos clone and left you to have all the funn without me. bugfluff.

  97. Iris

    Sorry, I’ll stop. Couldn’t resist!

  98. SusanM

    Speaking of Freud, anyone who ever doubts that pornulators hate women only needs to listen to them discuss their “craft”, much as listening to the men of Details conclusively demonstrates their hate for us. I read an interview once with Gregory Dark, the porntastic director often credited with popularizing anal scenes (in the movies and real life). In that interview he mentioned despising both his parents, and that he had made it his pornlicious goal to completely degrade women (thanks to his slutty mom) and to turn all American men into defacto gays by making everyone crave anal (thanks to his reviled absent dad).

    GROSSNESS WARNING! This interview doesn’t go quite as far as the one I remember, but the hatred for all humans (except the French), and women in particular, still shines through. Blamers who are sensitive souls should not read this, and it’s not work-safe:

    http://www.lukeford.com/stars/male/gregory_dark.html

  99. Zonk

    If you’re looking for the next third base, look no further.

    It will be ass to mouth.

    A2M

    I am almost certain of it.

  100. Frigga's Own

    “Here in Cleveland we have The Scene, which is the same as your Washington City Paper. It’s free and widely available. I quit reading it after they published an article about boning fat chicks and cleverly dumping them. (There was a too-too clever pejorative name for the technique, but my mind has mercifully blocked it out.)”

    ‘Chubby Chasing’. I’m guessing that’s what they called it. I’d let the terminology die an ignoble death in the dark recesses of regrettable cultural trends except that it’s still a term being used at the moment and we fat women should know it to be on the lookout for one. Also view with suspicion anyone who declares himself to be into ‘BBW’ and ‘feederism’.

  101. Dolia

    Feederism isn’t the same as BBW. Many people who like fat women are deeply anti-feederism. While there is an inherent problem with using a phrase like BBW, and I personally hate it, it’s the only word I can currently use when looking for dates. I always describe myself as fat rather than BBW, but understandably some people would think they were being mroe offensive by saying they wanted to meet a “fat” chick rather than a BBW. Apologies, totally off thread, just thought the conflation of bbw and feederism was dangerous.

  102. INemb

    SusanM. Um. This is where I stopped reading that:

    Let Me Tell Ya Bout Black Chicks was 1984′s sequel to White Chicks. “I had these Klu Klux Klan guys riding on top of black girls as if they’re horses. That scene made me happy.”

  103. Frigga's Own

    Well, my personal opinion is that if someone is going to date you based on whether you are or are not fat, they’re probably not worth spending time with. It’s all part of the same problem as far as I’m concerned, which is why I mention them together. I’ll come right out and say I’m fat because I’d rather avoid both types of person, but I run like hell from the people who are looking specifically for fat women.

  104. Dolia

    Yes, I see your point. I think I didn’t get that in your original post; probably my coming at it from the wrong angle.

  105. marzipan

    The New Times in St. Louis (owned by the same people who own the Scene in Cleveland and also catering to fratboy date-rapists) did that same vile story a few years back. They called it ‘pigging.’ The fact that stuff like that actually gets published means there are many people who think it’s okay, and that’s mind-boggling to me.

  106. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    I think way too much about this stuff. I thought of it last night — the Scene magazine’s term for chubby-chasing was called “going hogging”.

  107. Dolia

    EWWWWWW!!!!!

  108. slythwolf

    You know, I wonder if these people could understand if I were to explain that by saying they’re willing to date someone fat, they’re only saying “Hey, it’s cool if you’re fat, I’m not going to be all fattist about it or anything,” but if they’re saying they want a BBW which stands for “big beautiful woman” IIRC, they’re actually saying, “It’s cool if you’re fat, as long as you’re also what this culture considers beautiful (minus the skinny part), otherwise no way”.

  109. finnsmotel

    “I thought “anal” as “fastidious and kind of uptight” had to do with “analytical”.”

    I thought it was a shortened version of “anal retentive,” which was kinda funny the first 5,000 times I heard it. But, it’s kind of a drag that now it’s become part of the lexicon.

  110. rachel

    It is short for “anal retentive” but that phrase itself refers to the Freudian infantile anal stage, wherein the infant/toddler is obsessed with the pleasure he (always he) receives from excretion. Parents (by which is always meant mothers’) attempt to too aggressively associate shame and the need for control with this function forces a child to stagnate in this phase, or too heavily weight it, resulting in lifelong issues about control, cleanliness, fastidiousness, etc. The child/adult remains invested in “retaining” control over a huge swatch of psychology/life to compensate for a sense of inadequacy incurred by his being encouraged to disavow the pleasure of excretion in favor of shame/control. The “retentive”also has to do with incurring an unwillingness to confront excretory functions (e.g. an unwillingness to shit) out of a sense that one wants to “retain” possession of all things associated with his body.

    And that is my Freud for the day.

  111. Dolia

    The acronym BBW is tricky. That’s why so many fat commenters are trying to reclaim the word “fat” without the pejoratives….

  112. Marcy

    If you’re looking for the next third base, look no further.

    It will be ass to mouth.

    A2M

    I am almost certain of it.

    Oh, it’s already here. I give it a few more years before guys are telling their girlfriends, “I won’t even consider marrying a woman who doesn’t TRUST me enough to let me stick my dick up her ass and then give me a blow job right after I take it out. I need to know that you’ll be a disgusting pig just for me. It’s the ultimate intimacy, baby.”

    Excuse me while I go vomit.

  113. Marcy

    Well, my personal opinion is that if someone is going to date you based on whether you are or are not fat, they’re probably not worth spending time with. It’s all part of the same problem as far as I’m concerned, which is why I mention them together. I’ll come right out and say I’m fat because I’d rather avoid both types of person, but I run like hell from the people who are looking specifically for fat women.

    You know, I’m really starting to think that men just CANNOT love women as people. When someone is raised to be an oppressor in a patriarchy, when he is taught to commodify women and their bodies, when he taught that sex is something that women possess and you need to try to get from them, it’s well nigh impossible for him to love women.

    Men can’t love, they can only fetishize.

  114. justicewalks

    Men can’t love, they can only fetishize.

    How dare you?!!!!111! MY 12 strapping sons AND my husband love me very much. You don’t know anything about MY life. How dare you directly attack me and my ‘boys’ with all your generalizations about the shittiness of men!!???

  115. tinfoil hattie

    … they’re willing to date someone fat, …

    oooh, as a fatty, I should be so lucky! Thank you, thank you, Big P, for being “willing” to date me! Let me just go slip into my big girl lingerie and some high heels!

  116. Bird

    Men can’t love, they can only fetishize.

    How dare you?!!!!111! MY 12 strapping sons AND my husband love me very much. You don’t know anything about MY life. How dare you directly attack me and my ‘boys’ with all your generalizations about the shittiness of men!!???

    That seemed a little uncalled for. Nobody brought up her Nigel/Nigel Jr. in response here.

    I know you’re pissed at some people on the message boards, but really.

  117. Jezebella

    justicewalks, that really was totally out of line. It’s practically troll-like.

  118. DeAnander

    I’d say any guy who says he’s looking for a specific physical type of woman is automatically right out of the running, whether it be “redheads” or “slender” or “BBW”. I mean WTH, is this WalMart or a community? [don't answer that] picking “the blonde” or “the plump one” out of the lineup is what happens in a whorehouse. and that is what our culture is becoming… one big convenience store, whether it be for food or sex or slave-labour shoes from China. we’re not supposed to have any connection with other people beyond the contractual/cash nexus. increasingly, prostitution is considered a more legitimate form of sexuality than any kind of bonding or love-oriented sex. neoliberal market dogma meets patriarchy: love at first sight,

    I placed one online personal ad once, on a dare from a friend and at a moment of deep loneliness and pain over a rejection that wiped me out emotionally for a couple of years. it was mostly a list of the books that have been critical to shaping my philosophy, and the way I’d like to live the next decade or so of my life, the life project I’m excited about, that kind of stuff. that’s what I’d most like to know about a prospective friend/lover: what do you think, what do you read, what do you believe in? did I get a response? yeah, from desperate Nigerians trying to marry their way into the First World. hundreds of “views” and not one response. apparently there’s an unmarked profile item for men on dating services: “turnoffs” include “women who read”, or “women who have opinions,” or possibly both. to read some of the boy-profiles on these services is very educational, in a rather awful way. many sociology theses could be derived from this goldmine of primary source material :-)

    I don’t grok instrumental sex at all, literally don’t GET it, any more than I get why anyone would eat at McD’s unless they were desperately hungry and it was the only place open in a strange town at 1am. and even then… it’s like being tone deaf, I guess, I just don’t understand how anyone can get off on even the more benign forms of instrumental sex. I thought the whole point was connection and intersubjectivity; hell, even the bonobos use sexual contact to build community and solidarity. what is wrong with our species?

    why have the males of our species evolved further and further down a path that seems wholly maladaptive, let alone its ethical ghastliness? making fertile women ill and damaging their bodies with violent and excessive f*cking and/or pathogenic A2M, maximising spread of STDs by compulsive promiscuity, adult men damaging prepubescent girls by raping them before their bodies are even mature — how is this adaptive? it seems more like a species-wide death wish, like men are trying to destroy the reproductive capacity of their own species.

    if they really want so badly to reduce humanity’s reproductive potential, it would be so much less obnoxious if they would just cut their own balls off… I mean, what could be a more stunning proof of toughness, resolve, fortitude in face of pain? what could be more Manly? it really takes balls to cut off your balls! bring back the cult of Cybele, I say, and all those life-hating suicidal males can leave the females alone. if a chimp in the primate house at the zoo started behaving the way human males behave, the keepers would move him to an isolation cage and/or have him euthanised.

  119. Boudicca

    DeAnander,
    Sing it, sister! You gave articulate voice to many of my own thoughts/experiences. I shall, with your permission, quote your last sentence from time to time as needed.
    Bou

  120. sam

    “increasingly, prostitution is considered a more legitimate form of sexuality than any kind of bonding or love-oriented sex.”

    So true it’s scary. The prevailing philosophy seems to be that if something doesn’t feed the market then it’s not worth anything. Today I got news about an organized bike ride titled “Sex on Wheels” accompanied by this description of what they mean by SEX on wheels:

    Which San Francisco streets are named for gold-rush era madams? What world-famous prostitutes’ rights activist rode a bike to work? This whore-iffic ride, narrated by costumed, in-character docents and presented in conjunction with the Sex Worker Film Festival, will answer these questions

    Prostitution is more deemed sex-like than actual sex these dark days.

  121. Zora

    “That seemed a little uncalled for. Nobody brought up her Nigel/Nigel Jr. in response here.

    I know you’re pissed at some people on the message boards, but really.”

    “justicewalks, that really was totally out of line. It’s practically troll-like.”

    Hmmm…maybe I need to get me to the message boards? That comment seemed perfectly, sarcastically reasonable to me in this context.

  122. Tupe

    I have recently taken to using the term Patriachy Buddy to refer to my boyfriend. It’s a therapy with a double mocking purpose: one for the patriachy, one for the people who would use my own high-brow feminist theory against me by coming into our bedroom and denouncing our relationship as abusive, oppressive and telling me I have no choice but to be a victim of rape simply on the basis of my sexual orientation.

    The fact that I am female-bodied and sexually/romantically attracted to male bodies is not uneffected by the fact that the Big P has used such romantic/sexual interactions for its own benefit since its beginning. But that does not make them equatable on all levels. Excuse the piss and vinegar out of me, I am not a bad feminist, rape victim or woman suffering from internalized oppression simply because I really, genuinely, and completely honestly want to get it on with boys. Likewise, my desire to have sex with other female bodied people does not make me a cheap rip-off version of a rapist who just happens to not have a dick. This is because sex with women is not a function of patriarchy. It is just one more thing that has been abused by patriachy.

    I will be the first one to admit to you that yes, even my precious little boyfriend benefits from privilege I don’t and that two queers like us are still engrained with the same expectations of a fucked up hetero dynamic. What are two little hetero lovers supposed to do? One trick is to throw those stupid pre-scripted arguments out the window and just have sex instead. I am with you on most things, Twisty, but there is a point where my Nigel really isn’t in the same category as rapists, just like people who drink milk aren’t rapists and people who degrade the environment aren’t rapists. That word has been co-opted enough. As someone who is in a perfectly healthy sexual relationship I refuse to accept that label as I am an ally to people who actually deserve to use the punch it packs. Keep the Dworkian name calling out of my personal life, please. She herself said that both intercourse and sexual pleasure “can and will survive equality” and I know from experience it be just fine during the revolution, too.

  123. Orange

    Wait, does DeAnander’s “instrumental sex” include vibrators? Because those can be good. And two-person sex should involve connection, yes, but the one-person variety needs none.

    My friends who’ve placed personal ads have never specified the race/ethnicity they’re looking for, because what’s the point of that? Most people are looking for “their own kind,” which is ludicrous, or they’re specifically looking for a partner of a different background, which is highly problematic–much like announcing that one has a preference for physical type, only with extra sociological and patriarchy-inflected ramifications. (Thinking here of the fellas seeking Asian or Latina women, especially.)

  124. DeAnander

    Sorry about the confusion between “instruments” such as vibrators and “instrumentalism” which (politically speaking), like “objectification,” is treating another person like a thing, a means to an end, rather than a sovereign human being with his/her own ends and views to be taken into account and respected. (the I/It relation rather than the I/Thou relation, if you’re into Buber). I got no problems with vibrators, other than that if too often used they seem to reduce sensitivity (damhikt).

    Actually I have no problem with women who enjoy sex with male partners, even if that sex includes penile penetration (and gee, isn’t it interesting how we all assume that ‘sex with male partner’ has to include said penile penetration, but we don’t automatically assume that “sex with female partner” includes clitoral stimulation UNLESS both partners are female… when we say “she had sex with a man,” 90 pct of us read that as “she allowed/encouraged him to f*ck her,” but if we said “he had sex with a woman” 90 pct of us assume the same thing, “she allowed/encouraged him to f*ck her” — but anyway)… so long as what’s going on is giving and sharing (reciprocity, gift economy), not just taking and coercing (wage/slavery, commodity exchange, reification) and no one’s getting hurt, who gives a good goddamn what you do or with whom.

    problem comes — as always — in the struggle to have a healthy relationship in the middle of a sick culture. can an interracial relationship be healthy and good and loving? it sure can — but it takes real effort and it’s under siege from all sides. given the power structures of patriarchy, hetero relationships are as fraught and heavily mine-infested as interracial relationships… and even same-sex relationships are sprouting from the same toxic heap of patriarchy, like same-race [whatever that means] relationships that are still poisoned by deeply-rooted ideas about who’s prettier because his/her skin is one shade lighter, etc. … in other words, lesbians and gay men can and do act out woman-hatred, penis-worship, etc. in same-sex relationships.

    any kind of sexual interaction is going to be fraught — perilous in one way or another — in a culture where sex=power, gender=power, penis=weapon, f*ck=dominate, biotic=dirty etc.

    if it were not so, we wouldn’t have stock phrases/tropes like “but will you still respect me in the morning?” if this weren’t patriarchy, no one would ever have to ask that question — because the whole notion of discarding a lover with contempt after one “use”, like a disposable snotrag (aka kleenex) would be unthinkable.

  125. Antelope

    I heard something so mind-bogglingly disgusting on Dr. Drew’s radio show one day that I was gonna resist sharing it here.

    But now, since other folks are talking about ass-to-mouth as the next big trend anyway, I’ll go ahead & mention it.

    So the male caller says that his buddy told him his girl will do the anal followed by BJ thing, but, horror of horrors, caller’s own girl will not do it. Not even after being told, repeatedly, that this other woman will. He wants Dr. Drew to tell him what would be a more persuasive argument.

    Dr. Drew says “That’s not safe, I won’t help you argue for it, and why do you want to do that anyway?” Caller repeats several times that his buddy gets it so he should too, and eventually Dr. Drew gives up on that chat and moves on. There was something about the tone of the whole thing that left me doubting whether the buddy really does do this disgusting thing, or whether he’s just messing with the mind of his “friend,” who is obviously an idiot.

    I couldn’t help thinking that was really the logical end-point of male sexuality. It had every element. The desire to degrade. The notion of keeping up and being as gross as the next guy. The unquestioning love and trust for his buddy even when the buddy is talking shit, and the equally unquestioning contempt for his girl. The total irrelevance of whether this would be physically enjoyable for either of them if she “gave in.”

    I know not every guy has reached the logical end-point, but just having a sense of them as being somewhere on that continuum is making it nearly impossible to date them anymore. Luckily, I seem to be moving in other directions these days.

  126. DeAnander

    I’ve argued before, in print no less, that most men’s sexuality has little to do with women and everything to do with other men, women being merely a commodity to be shared around to gain status (gang rape or “swinging”), or an arena in which to display masculine prowess and then boast about it (“war stories”, trophy wives/girlfriends, etc). for many men, sex with women is only relevant insofar is it bears in their status among other men: the real thrill is in telling other guys about it, or being watched by other guys doing it, or watching other guys doing it. this weird narcissism/homoeroticism manifests in the “mirrored room” fetish where the guy can’t get into the sexual activity unless he can watch himself doing it (auto-voyeurism), and of course in all of porno. notice how many porn scenarios involve multiple males using a woman’s body as a medium via which to have sex with each other?

    the “grossout sex contest” is totally the same thing as the “third base” thing, as Twisty points out in the title of this horrid yet unerringly perspicacious thread. the whole point of first, second, third base is that it provides a series of benchmarks for guys to brag to each other about what they managed to coerce or persuade a girl to do. only now, thanks to “liberation,” we’re not allowed to consider mere tongue-wrestling or groping or even f*cking gross enough to brag about, so the ante is upped and guys have to achieve genuine sadistic rape techniques to feel they have earned their place among the non-females and are therefore safe from being raped themselves.

    my gods, whatever happened to the days when any man who discussed the state of intimate affairs between himself and a woman was considered a cad and a bounder and lowlife scum? did those days ever exist? or did novelists invent ‘em?

    whatever happened to the days when a guy was supposed to feel grateful if a woman “granted him her favours,” and respond with consideration and courtesy, even if not with egalitarian reciprocity? again, were there ever such days or did female and male novelists conspire to invent ‘em, to cover up the ghastly reality of male sexual entitlement, greed, and predation?

    was there ever such a thing as a gentleman? seems to me I went out with (and even got naked with) at least one nice considerate boy at one time, many years ago. the up-n-coming generation scares the sh*t outta me. they’re like Harlan Ellison’s “boy and his dog” story, but instead of dystopian sci fi it’s real life. yikes.

  127. thebewilderness

    “I will be the first one to admit to you that yes, even my precious little boyfriend benefits from privilege I don’t and that two queers like us are still engrained with the same expectations of a fucked up hetero dynamic. What are two little hetero lovers supposed to do? One trick is to throw those stupid pre-scripted arguments out the window and just have sex instead…”

    Crimminy no, Tupe.
    Much better to march in and dismiss everyone elses experience because yours is the only valid experience. WTF

  128. Silence

    Zonk is right. Ass-to-mouth will be the next third base.

    And you know what? When it happens, there’ll be women out there who’ll swear they love the taste of shit.

    This is not a slap in the face to those who enjoy anal sex. Under the right circumstances, it is a pleasurable activity for some. But I refuse to believe that there’s a mentally healthy person in this world who would voluntarily put crap in their mouths.

    Completely appropriate, since the patriarchy is determined to drive women insane.

  129. tinfoil hattie

    DeAnander, could you please use the shift key? Thank you.

  130. S. D'Attournee-Lawson

    DeAnander, I’d like to re-iterate your link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFOF-jv32dA

    Sorry. It was really important for me to see, and thought it might be for others.

  131. DeAnander

    DeAnander, could you please use the shift key?

    in a word, no :-) if it was good enough for e. e. cummings it’s good enough for me…

    in return I might riposte, somewhat irritably as it’s a hot evening: could you please try focusing on content rather than form? I don’t correct other people’s spelling or grammar on online fora (despite many temptations) and I heartily recommend the “I’m not your copy-editor” policy to others :-) I’m outta here if this is one of those fora where Strunk and White or the USGPO Style Manual are the main focus of discourse.

  132. thebewilderness

    DeAnander,
    There are FAQ’s that will explain the main focus of discourse. They will also satisfy you as to why someone would make such an outlandish, shift keyist, anti e e request.

  133. pisaquari

    IBTP that Twisty can write something with such facility of speech no less massive evidence, and still, someone writes:

    “my Nigel really isn’t in the same category as rapists, just like people who drink milk aren’t rapists and people who degrade the environment aren’t rapists.”

    Whaaaa?

    Tupe, if you wouldn’t mind: elaborate?

  134. de Selby

    I’m totally on board with decrying “our culture’s merry glorification of misogyny”, and I’m even resigned to being hated for my mushroom-like genitalia, if you must.

    The subject matter of this post, though, I find off-putting.

    Would you mind too much, Twisty, moving on to a less unwholesome topic?

    This open discussion of Details Magazine is really beyond the pale.

    Yours sensitively,
    de Selby

  135. mearl

    Some Random Notes on Anal Sex, by a very tired mearl

    *Once upon a time, a married dude with whom I was making out at the fishing lodge where I worked, a married dude who had lied to me and told me he was single (just so y’all know, and I believed him because I was still a young and stupid mearl), came out of nowhere and asked if he could “fuck” me “in the ass.” He was a real charmer, and I was impressed with his candour. I definitely stayed there to hang out with him and DID NOT give him an hour-long lecture on the inequalities of male-to-female anal sex. No, sir. A lovely example of an overprivileged American misogynist male millionaire was he.

    *Once upon a time, my first boyfriend admitted that he and his brother were in a race to see who could “get” their girlfriend to have anal sex with them first, for bragging rights.

    *Once upon a time, a recent moron whom I dated, one of the ones who was addicted to porn and strip clubs for awhile although you’d never guess because he is such a dweeb, told me that although he is ashamed to admit it, he was obsessed with anal sex for a long time because he’d never done it and it is EVERYWHERE in porn. I told him we could do it if I could do something to him first, over an extended period of time so he could prove that he was willing to take whatever he was willing to dish out; something that would hurt him but give me great delight…such as jab him in the testicles, whenever I felt like it, with a carrot peeler.

    *This Details article is not news to me. I saved an article from 8 years ago, about how to coerce your unwilling girlfriend into anal sex, and then how to be nice about it so she’ll make it a regular thing. I was going to use wallpaper paste to paste up copies in every bathroom at my university with my own comments attached, but then was too scared that I’d get caught and thrown out of school. One of my many regrets is never doing that when I still had the article…

    *DeAnander is bang on the money, and I couldn’t give a shit about capitalisation, although I know Twisty does.

    *I find that most “mainstream” women avoid porn like the plague. If all women were aware of what went on in the dark recesses of men’s pointed heads, no one would allow the sick fuckos near us.

    *A good friend of mine kept getting recurring yeast infections while living and sleeping with her now-ex.(Notice how when you’re not having sex with guys, yeast infections seem to magically disappear?) She saw a doctor about it, and the doctor told her that if the boyfriend was using his tongue on her backside (couldn’t think of a better way to put “rimming”) and then directly going to cunnilingus, he was transferring bacteria that would keep causing her yeast infections. They stopped this transference and the yeast infections stopped as well. Picture how clean and wonderful ass-to-mouth must be. You know, aside from being a non-degrading, empowerful act of liberation.

    *Until all hetero guys are ready and willing to have their own orfices violated by a weiner with a menacing male attached, a male who wants to hurt and degrade and get points from and use, their hole and person for his pleasure, I ain’t game. ESPECIALLY when this Details horseshit is the de rigeur attitude of males in mainstream culture. Whether this urge to degrade women is espoused in private by mainstream hetero males or not, this stuff sells, and SOMEONE, actually millions of someones, are out there buying it. So everyone can “My Nigel” all they want. Your Nigel is likely hoarding a copy of “Girls I Have Rough-Fucked” in the bottom of his toolbox. Or, he has thrown it away from guilt, but keeps fantasising about it when he has sex with you. And give me a break: it’s not like he’d tell you this.

    Finally, this comment rings true: “It sounds to me like these guys would rather be having sex with their male friends, since they’re obviously more concerned with impressing them than their girlfriends.” Women are just a medium for hetero men to download all their fear and hatred upon before getting on to the business of making out with other men. Good one, Tom. Women are the universal male garbage toilet. And feminism can only succeed when we all understand that supporting ourselves in this role is liberating!

  136. mearl

    Whoo! I AM tired. There is no cohesiveness to my sarcasm. My apologies.

  137. The Witty Mulatto

    I don’t think anal sex is always a domination thing or an extension of porn. What bothered me about the article wasn’t the fact that it was about anal sex but that it was presented as something to brag about. I feel kind of guilty sometimes because I think anal sex is pretty hot, which Simply Isn’t Done in raging feminist circles. I mean, there are a million different positions you can be in. It doesn’t have to be about domination at all, unless there’s no trust in the relationship, in which case you shouldn’t be screwing anyway.

    What pisses me off about the article though, is that it was exclusively about guy-to-girl anal sex. Any article about anal sex is not an article to me unless it includes the word “dildo”. In fact, until I read this, that was what I thought straight anal sex was. Girls with dildoes.

  138. kate

    Ganza: “Is it possible that by being honest (and crude as all hell) these men are unwittingly advancing the public dialogue?”

    I’ve thought about this a while back and had the same hope. I do think there is some validity to this. Unfortunately, that the oppressor has changed its spots to some degree or revealed his soft under belly does not portend revolution.

    Some venues of feminism it appears have adopted the idea that women willingly participating in their sexual degradation makes them further liberated. As an old time blamer, I find feigned willingness in exchange for increased privileges hardly an example of consent or liberation.

    We said women needed to jump out of the kitchen decades ago and unfortunately, the boyz were standing at the door with the car keys in their hands, pointing to the shack outside. “Shure honey, you can go outside and git yerself a job an’ all, right over thar, my boyz are waitin’ to give you enlightenment.”

  139. DeAnander

    ah I see, thebewilderness (wonderful handle, btw). thanks for the clue.

    all I can say — as a convicted anticapitalist, or Anticapitalite as some would have it — is that we owe a great deal to the mitochondria.

  140. MzNicky

    DeAnder: Put your precious pinky on the shift key as needed, or I’m afraid Twisty may have something to say about it. THEN you’ll be sorry.

    Twisty dear: Every morning I click on IBTP, hoping to find a new photo of darling Bert and/or Zippy; yet every morning I’m greeted by that — that — thing up there. I know I’m the one who whined about the gravy-slathered chicken-fried steak, but seriously, that feces-dipped fungus or whatever it is is making me nauseated. I for one demand a happy furry puppy picture. Soon.

    And after reading this thread over the past few days, may I say I’ve never been happier to be post-menopausal and antidepressantly-medicated and therefore sex-drive-free. Really! Happy! Happy, I say!

  141. silvia sea

    I was shocked when I recently read an article stating that “anal is the new oral” and posted a blurb about it, too. My friend who works at Planned Parenthood reported (shockingly) to me that all these young girls think that anal sex is a form of birth control! (um, yeah, but not protection against any STD’s). this whole trend is fucking disgusting.

  142. silvia sea

    Tupe: true, I guess, except that some people who drink milk ARE rapists. etc.

  143. tinfoil hattie

    Goodness, DeAnander, far be it from me to curtail your poetic aspirations. Being over 40, I find it hard to read paragraph upon paragraph with no obvious beginning and end to sentences. (Sometimes those little, tiny punctuation marks are hard for a farsighted person to discern.) I was asking for a courtesy, and tried to do in as polite a manner as I could. Perhaps you misread “Could you please use the shift key? Thank you.”

    Now, I feel not-quite-so-polite.

  144. tinfoil hattie

    “…tried to do SO in as polite a manner…”

  145. Daisy

    An odd effect of the way my browser combines the title of the post with the name of the blog when you click on the comments link is the fact that I can now read
    Anal is the new ‘third base’ at I Blame the Patriarchy.

    Mine too! I had a very good laugh over it.

  146. Daisy

    Forgot:

    In Philip Roth’s THE HUMAN STAIN, there is a political conversation overheard by the protagonist, about Clinton and Monica. One guy says Clinton should have had anal sex with her, then she wouldn’t have told anyone. It would have remained a secret. “In the ass creates loyalty!” he says.

    It’s haunted me ever since. The fact that so few women are talking about this, makes think he has a point, and women are too ashamed.

  147. DeAnander

    [sigh]

    I’m 50.

    after 30 years at a keyboard (software engineering) I have rsi. some days are better than others.

    outta here, bye all…

  148. Shira

    Your Nigel is likely hoarding a copy of “Girls I Have Rough-Fucked” in the bottom of his toolbox. Or, he has thrown it away from guilt, but keeps fantasising about it when he has sex with you. And give me a break: it’s not like he’d tell you this.

    This is so true. About three weeks after I’d been sexually assaulted last December, I discovered completely by accident that my Nigel of 2 years had been using my computer to search for videos of “anal rape.” I checked his computer and sure enough, I found several gigs of videos labeled “rape,” “anal rape,” “teen rape,” “four guys rape slut,” etc. (until a panic attack ensued and I had to stop). There was even an entire folder dedicated to gynecologist-office porn! I already had my reservations about male gynos, but the idea that he might also be fantasizing about that crap whilst examining my lady-bits is absolutely repulsive.

    Of course, the idea that any given dude I sex might be is fantasizing about the hateful crap he’s seen in porn is equally if not more repulsive, which is why I’ve put the kibosh on the whole het sex thing as of late.

    When confronted, by the way, he swore up and down that of COURSE those women were consenting – he could tell, using his magic penis-powers of discernment. No, this certainly did not mean he was in any way complicit in and benefiting from and contributing to the global rape culture.

    Pornography indoctrinates men into woman-hate, probably more than any other single factor. They start watching when they are 13 or 14, before they have any sexual experience, when girls so recently had cooties and were to be avoided, and they develop a Pavlovian arousal to scenes of degradation and cruelty. But it’s worse than that, because Pavlov’s dogs didn’t need more and more bells in order to drool, but many men, including my Nigel, have told me that they need the more violent, sadistic, misogynist rape porn (although they usually use the euphemism “hard core”) in order to become aroused (along with patently ridiculous things like “women in porn aren’t objectified because some female porn stars are famous!” and “men who watch porn are empathizing with the woman and what she’s feeling!”).

    Eventually, Pavlov’s dogs did not even need to see meat anymore in order to salivate. Eventually, Pavlov’s men no longer need to see sex anymore in order to become aroused – their orgasm trains them to react to the violence and woman-hate instead of the sex, so ultimately, they can get off on videos of women simply being hurt/caned/beaten/whipped/etc (part of this might also be the fact that women’s bodies are synonymous with sex in a patriarchy, so they convince themselves that seeing a naked sex-body being caned is really about the sex and not about the woman-hate). It’s hate speech. It’s intent and effect is to inculcate hatred of women into men.

    Does anyone remember Bumfights, that awful series of videos produced by a group of Nigels who paid several desperate, possibly drug-addicted homeless people to beat the crap out of each other? According to wikipedia, the “actors” in the video sued the producers, and the producers settled with them and agreed not to make any more videos. They also were charged with several felonies and misdemeanors, and ended up serving a few months in jail. My question is, how is this situation any different than most (if not all) pornography, and why is it not a Terrible Attack on Free Speech and Liberty to come between a man and his “bumfights” video?

    The only reason I can see is that the “bums” were men. IBTP.

  149. scott

    I always just thought anal was just kinda gross and yucky, from my perspective (I’m gonna put it where you shit? really?) and hers (same, plus pain and the dominance/humiliation issues Twisty mentions). I know gay guys seem to like it, so whatever floats your boat, but I never really understood what some het guys would get out of it. Now I guess I understand, after Twisty laid it out. Sickening and skeevy. I think I’ll take a shower now. Cheers!

  150. J

    I’m surprised that in over 140 comments, no body has brought up rim-jobs– i.e. analingus. It’s an interesting juxtaposition between the sluts-only-like-it attitude toward penetrative anal-sex and cunninglingus.

  151. Joan Kelly

    Another day, another blog crush. I think I am on a different kind of blogroll. Twisty you’re awesome.

    For physiological reasons, I am someone who has enjoyed being on the receiving end of anal play and/or sex, and I could not be more pissed off about the Details article. I also have engaged in penetrating men anally, and I cannot fucking believe that anybody expects anybody else to take it in the ass when it hurts. There is no reason for it to have to hurt. And that’s not even the start of what’s horrifying in this article, in this stick-it-to-women-any-way-you-can culture. Mother of Christ.

  152. tinfoil hattie

    I don’t know what rsi is, DeAnander, but that’s not the previous reason you gave for not using the shift key.

  153. LouisaMayAlcott

    Hattie,

    rsi is repetitive stress injury

    It occurs a lot in people who are constantly keyboarding, or doing any other sort of repetitive physical task unremittingly.

    IBTP for repetitive stress injury.

    The thing between you and deAnander I see as a clash of disabilities, or physical limitations, if you prefer.

  154. mearl

    Hey, I brought up rimming! Where’s my cookie?

  155. pdxstudent

    I made that comment using Safari, which is why it signed me in as “J.” Know that I am still that person.

    Sorry Mearl, I read through a good chunk of the comments and then started to wonder whether anyone brought up the subject. So, I just searched the page for rim and analingus and got nothing.

  156. thebewilderness

    This thread deserves a giant plateful of troll-house cookies.

  157. goblinbee

    Ironic that DeAnander’s screen name has not just one, but two capital letters, forcing the rest of us to shift twice! Oh the injustice!
    –gb

  158. roamaround

    “My friend who works at Planned Parenthood reported (shockingly) to me that all these young girls think that anal sex is a form of birth control! (um, yeah, but not protection against any STD’s). this whole trend is fucking disgusting.”

    I am too distracted with moving to add much of substance here, but I do have to point out something I know from my roam-around-the-world days:

    This is nothing new! Women in cultures where an intact hymen on your wedding night is absolutely required (most of the world?), have used anal sex to appease horny boyfriends for ages. (I’m thinking specifically of Brazil, but I’ve heard reports from other places too.) Risky and painful, yes, but you keep the precious hymen and avoid the shame of pregnancy.

    Fucking disgusting, regardless.

  159. Lauredhel

    “the Scene magazine’s term for chubby-chasing was called “going hogging”.”

    Yup – I’ve heard it called “sweat-hogging”. Pigs.

  160. silvia sea

    roamaround:

    ahhh, so obviously true I should’ve thought of it myself.

    Even in the U.S., I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that teenage girls think anal sex is “safer,” given the current state of sex education in our country. *sigh*

    for the record, I know I’m new around here but I don’t care who uses the shift key. punctuation’s nice, though.

  161. tinfoil hattie

    Old curmudgeons like me want people to accommodate MY difficulty. Because IBTP is about ME!!!

    DeAnander, come back. Olive branch. I’m sorry. Capitalize or don’t. Change your handle to d.a. for all I care!

    TF

  162. josquin

    I want DeAnander to come back too.
    lower case and all.
    I felt sad when I saw people start to crab about about such a tiny detail, because her words seemed worth reading, and besides, Twisty didn’t seem to object.
    DeAnander come back!

  163. delphyne

    Me too. I’d like to read more analysis like this:

    “why have the males of our species evolved further and further down a path that seems wholly maladaptive, let alone its ethical ghastliness? making fertile women ill and damaging their bodies with violent and excessive f*cking and/or pathogenic A2M, maximising spread of STDs by compulsive promiscuity, adult men damaging prepubescent girls by raping them before their bodies are even mature — how is this adaptive? it seems more like a species-wide death wish, like men are trying to destroy the reproductive capacity of their own species.”

  164. Kali

    There was a report out recently about teens having less sex and pregnancy. The first question in my mind was how did they define sex? From the articles it appears they define it as sexual intercourse. So, what do you get with this vile mixture of conservative obsession with virginity (for girls only, of course) and an all around obsession with porn? You get anal and oral. It is not a good time for women and girls. Message to girls – “please your boyfriends with anal and oral, and please your father and husband with virginity on the wedding night. Your own pleasure is either derivative, secondary or non-existent.”

    Ewww! Disgusting.

  165. justicewalks

    …it seems more like a species-wide death wish, like men are trying to destroy the reproductive capacity of their own species.

    No, they’re just trying to destroy women.

    Even a raped, mutilated, destroyed woman’s body still has reproductive capacity, tenacious little bugger that it is. The end goal is a functioning womb that is attached to a brainwashed, toally male-identified mind. That way they can get their children, their “immortality,” without having to deal with the opinions and concerns of people who identify as female.

  166. tinfoil hattie

    Yup. I never should have started the capitalization thing. Who give a s*** when so much else is worse? My pettiness, my bad. DeAnander had great things to say. Please, if you’re lurking, come baaaaacccckkk! “Shane, come baaaaacccckkkk!”

    This thread is well over the 100-comment limit, so maybe we should continue on the message board?

    Over there, I think I’ll also start a thread about: I’m so damn cranky all the time with outrage fatigue and patriarchy-blaming that I attack people on my OWN side. For this I am angry at myself. I wonder how I (anyone else?) can function in a healthy manner while constantly noticing patriarchy and misogyny at work?

    I’m headin’ over.

  167. Vera

    The message board has several threads about anger. It’s another one of the self-protection mechanisms of the patriarchy: if you can’t keep strong women down, keep them paralyzed with anger. Oh, and diagnose the anger as a mental inbalance that must be treated with lobotomy, electroshock, and shitloads of drugs.

  168. tinfoil hattie

    Ha, Vera — just found ‘em. Thanks.

  169. MzNicky

    The rules on capitalization, punctuation, ellipsis avoidance, and other grammatical rudeness are Twisty’s. The Age of Idiotcracy descendeth too quickly as it is; is it too much to ask that we honor Twisty’s requests and remember what we all should have learned in, well, grammar school?

  170. Supermouse

    For anyone else with RSI, tapping the shift key five times (in most OSs) will switch on a feature that lets you tap the shift key, then the key you want shifted, without having to hold the shift key down. It also works on the ctrl and alt keys. It lets you get capital letters when holding the shift key down is painful.

  171. Shira

    Your Nigel is likely hoarding a copy of “Girls I Have Rough-Fucked” in the bottom of his toolbox. Or, he has thrown it away from guilt, but keeps fantasising about it when he has sex with you. And give me a break: it’s not like he’d tell you this.

    This is so true. About three weeks after I’d been sexually assaulted last December, I discovered completely by accident that my Nigel of 2 years had been using my computer to search for videos of “anal rape.” I checked his computer and sure enough, I found several gigs of videos labeled “rape,” “anal rape,” “teen rape,” “four guys rape slut,” etc. (until a panic attack ensued and I had to stop). There was even an entire folder dedicated to gynecologist-office porn! I already had my reservations about male gynos, but the idea that he might also be fantasizing about that crap whilst examining my lady-bits is absolutely repulsive.

    Of course, the idea that any given dude I sex might be is fantasizing about the hateful crap he’s seen in porn is equally if not more repulsive, which is why I’ve put the kibosh on the whole het sex thing as of late.

    When confronted, by the way, he swore up and down that of course those women were consenting – he could tell, using his magic penis-powers of discernment. No, this certainly did not mean he was in any way complicit in and benefiting from and contributing to the global rape culture.

    Pornography indoctrinates men into woman-hate, probably more than any other single factor. They start watching when they are 13 or 14, before they have any sexual experience, when girls so recently had cooties and were to be avoided, and they develop a Pavlovian arousal to scenes of degradation and cruelty, which they then wish to act out with the token female in their life. I think the homoerotic aspect of sharing stories of their conquest with their male friends is a direct result of their over-identification with the patriarchal umbermenschen in porn – the real excitement in watching porn comes not from seeing images of sex, but from seeing another man dominate.

    But it’s worse than that, because Pavlov’s dogs didn’t need more and more bells in order to drool, but many men, including my Nigel, have told me that they need the more violent, sadistic, misogynist rape porn (although they usually use the euphemism “hard core”) in order to become aroused (along with patently ridiculous things like “women in porn aren’t objectified because some female porn stars are famous!” and “men who watch porn are empathizing with the woman and what she’s feeling!”).

    Eventually, Pavlov’s dogs did not even need to see meat anymore in order to salivate. Eventually, Pavlov’s men no longer need to see sex anymore in order to become aroused – their orgasm trains them to react to the violence and woman-hate instead of the sex, which is what originally drew their curious adolescent minds to porn, so ultimately, they can get off on videos of women simply being hurt/caned/beaten/whipped/etc (part of this might also be the fact that women’s bodies are synonymous with sex in a patriarchy, so they convince themselves that seeing a naked sex-body being caned is really about the sex and not about the woman-hate).

    Does anyone remember Bumfights, that awful series of videos produced by a group of Nigels who paid several desperate, possibly drug-addicted homeless people to beat the crap out of each other? According to wikipedia, the “actors” in the video sued the producers, and the producers settled with them and agreed not to make any more videos. They also were charged with several felonies and misdemeanors, and ended up serving a few months in jail. The videos have also been blamed for inciting several violent attacks against the homeless. My question is, how is this situation any different than most (if not all) pornography? why is it not a Terrible Attack on Free Speech and Liberty to come between a man and his “bumfights” video? Why can people see the link between videotaped violence against homeless people —> actual violence against homeless people, but not videotaped rape —> actual rape?

    The only reason I can see is that the “bums” were men. IBTP.

  172. tinfoil hattie

    I know about the rules, but I could have been — ooh, as a blamer I hate to say it — NICER!!

    TH

  173. MzNicky

    TH: You were perfectly polite. I, on the other hand, am a dreadful old bitch. Not that I consider that a bad thing.

  174. Betty Fucking Crocker

    I’ll bake those cookies for you tauqueax.

  175. scrappy

    TH, you WERE perfectly polite. It will be nice if DeAnanza comes back, especially because the conflict between RSI and farsightedness is easily resolved with Supermouse’s suggestion. But either way, it’s not on you.

    IBTP for your excessive apologetic-ness (apologeticity?).

  176. Spit The Dummy

    TH, I agree with MzNicky. You were perfectly polite. The rules of this board are Twisty’s and they are there in black and white in the FAQ. I’m sorry DeAnander has RSI but giving you a snotty reply about ee cummings and then going off in a huff when informed that, yes, correct punctuation and grammar are the order of this board does not endear her to me, despite her interesting posts. But then, I’m a cranky old grammar and punctuation traditionalist English teacher and Twisty’s strict writing rules DO endear this space to me as a place to hang out.

  177. MzNicky

    What Spit the Dummy said. I’m an old-school copyeditor and former journalism prof. And the ee cummings excuse is beyond annoying.

  178. Marcy

    TH, I agree with MzNicky. You were perfectly polite. The rules of this board are Twisty’s and they are there in black and white in the FAQ. I’m sorry DeAnander has RSI but giving you a snotty reply about ee cummings and then going off in a huff when informed that, yes, correct punctuation and grammar are the order of this board does not endear her to me, despite her interesting posts. But then, I’m a cranky old grammar and punctuation traditionalist English teacher and Twisty’s strict writing rules DO endear this space to me as a place to hang out.

    How picky are we going to be? I realize that they change the rules of grammar every so often, but according to what I learned in grade school, high school, and college (I’m 37 now), you have two run-on sentences in your comment.

  179. goblinbee

    Marcy: “you have two run-on sentences in your comment.”

    Au contraire. A longish sentence does not necessarily a run-on sentence make. Run-on sentences have comma splices, which would rule out all of Spit The Dummy’s in this example.

  180. Spit The Dummy

    Marcy said: How picky are we going to be?

    The only person who can answer this one, Marcy, is Twisty. This is her blog and her rules apply. I’m sure Tinfoil Hattie wouldn’t have said anything at all re: this matter (and nor would I) except that this blog already has a rule about using correct capitalisation.

  181. tinfoil hattie

    Well, I wouldn’t have said anything if there weren’t a rule. On other blogs I just put up with bad grammar and non-use of punctuation and capitalization.

    I guess I too BTP for my feeling as though I weren’t nice enough. I also BTP for my feeling I have to take care of DeAnander.

    Whew! I guess I might as well just BTP for every ol’ thing.

    Oh wait. I already do.

  182. curmudgeon

    I drifted here from somewhere else but the comments here are very ..umm..interesting. As a guy, I’ve occasionally been surprised by woman wanting anal on the first date. Also, an ex of mine specifically told me that she missed anal when we were dating because I was too big for her. Plenty of women do want, and occasionally even demand, anal.

  183. Cruella

    Good post. I blogged on the same thing here.

  184. jessica j

    On a related note: Stephen Colbert recently profiled a woman who “empowers” her sisters by teaching them to pole dance. This profile included a few choice comments from the husband of one of the participants. This gentleman — and by “gentleman,” I mean “type of man who can often be found in ‘gentlemen’s clubs’” — who, by his own admission, thinks “big ugly bull dyke” when he thinks “feminist”, said (and I’m paraphrasing, but I’m pretty sure I’m getting it just about right, because it was just so perfect): “I think it’s great that some people are calling this [pole dancing] feminist, because that means we’re [men] not pigs for watching.” Out of the mouths of troglodytes…

    The continued pornification of culture, or the enculturalization of porn, is starting to put me off sex altogether. Seriously.

  185. Tupe

    The reason I brought milk drinking and environment trashing into the discussion is because I simply cannot stand it when people co-opt the words rape and rapist in slogans like “MILK IS RAPE!” and lines like “this new policy will rape the land of its natural resources” etc. There is a reason people want to use that word; it generally draws strong, negative reactions because it refers to actual rape, that being forced sexual contact/intercourse. My general belief is that when groups of people start using any strong word for hyperbole we chip away at our ablity to describe anything accurately. I feel it is perfectly appropriate for survivors and allies to demand that the vegans and environmentalists get their own word for their rhetoric.

    Also, thebewilderness, I was not dismissing other people’s experiences. I fully admit that hetero couples, my own included, are expected to play out a pretty fucked up relationship/gender roles. I’m asking that others not deny my experience that a feminist queer chick dating a feminist queer dude can actually get along and have sex that doesn’t qualify as rape. It really frustrates me that Dworkin’s book was dismissed by antifeminists who got people to turn against her by simplifying her argument and saying she thought all sex was rape. Now feminists are on that bandwagon? How the hell did that happen?

  186. Tupe

    (Apologies ahead of time for the double-post.)

    I’m sure it sounds to some like I’m just not-my-Nigeling. I’m responding to people who sound to me like they think lesbians are safer from patriachy and more enlightened about their oppression just by virtue of the fact that they don’t have sex with men. Is this some gross misunderstanding? Please advise.

  187. Proteus

    If not for men, how would the human race propagate?

    (Are you going to nuke me?)

  188. justicewalks

    I didn’t know where else to put this so that other IBTP message board users might be able to access it. To all of you who have sent me PMs on the board, they are very much appreciated, but I cannot respond to them. Please, if you have sent me a message to which you think I might like to respond, send me a personal email to:

    justicewalks (at) gmail (dot) com.

    To the blamer who extended a real-life invitation for snacks/drinks, I’m very interested! Contact me!

  189. Marcy

    Au contraire. A longish sentence does not necessarily a run-on sentence make. Run-on sentences have comma splices, which would rule out all of Spit The Dummy’s in this example.

    They brought out the term comma splice late in my schooling. I always prefer the term run-on sentence. And I know it has nothing to do with length. I am referring to the fact that there were two sentences with independent clauses separated by a conjunction. To wit: The rules of this board are Twisty’s and they are there in black and white in the FAQ. Like I said, they may have changed the rules, but back in my day, there would be a comma before the “and.” And in the next sentence, there should be a comma before the “but.” There are two independent clauses in that sentence as well.

    My personal take on all this? I understand that being a grammar snob is rather classist, so I figure that as long as someone is able to get their point across and their writing isn’t hard to read, then what’s the problem. I know it is Twisty’s rule, and I think that since this is her blog, *she* should be the one to reprimand someone if she feels it is necessary.

  190. Bird

    Marcy, yes, it’s still a rule (in my editorial world at least). However, I believe that ending sentences with prepositions is sometimes acceptable to avoid clunky and unnatural constructions, so some grammar lovers around here may see me as a bit of a heretic.

    But I think we should leave the grammar policing at IBTP to Twisty. It’s her blog and her rules. Polite requests, on the other hand, should never be inappropriate.

  191. bigbalagan

    Becoming a monk looks more and more attractive. Even for conception, there are enough turkey basters in the world. As a man, if I understand and agree with Twisty (and I do, to the extent that a pro forma member of the oppressor group can) I seriously question whether a “sex life” is possible.

  192. kate

    Marcy, I was under the impression (and mind you I haven’t had the opportunity to study English proper on a higher level) that a conjunction should never be followed with a comma. A comma, as I understand, seperates clauses while a conjunction conjoins them. Therefore, to place a comma after a conjunction would seem a contradictory use would it not?

    Also, I recall the rules of primary school English that sentences must never start with a conjunction. Then in college English, my instructor informed me that this no longer held true. I’ve started sentences here with the conjunction ‘and’. As far as I know, everyone is still alive and well after reading such offense. I’m not sure though if I could commit the offense of conjunction sans comma without feeling a bit squeamish about it.

    But then again, I am not a scholar in these matters, your input or anyone else’s is encouraged.

  193. Bird

    kate, she is suggesting placing the comma before the conjunction, which is correct usage. So it would be “We walked to the store, and Jane bought some tofu.” Two independent clauses joined by a conjunction should be separated by a comma before the conjunction (in this case, “and”). Otherwise it is a run-on sentence.

    You are correct that the conjunction should not be followed by the comma. That would be very odd (although there are circumstances where it might be correct).

    I’d also like to note that a comma splice and a run-on sentence are two different grammatical sins. In fact, they are opposites: a comma splice separates two parts that should be joined, while a run-on sentence joins two parts that should be separated.

    If you’ll all excuse me, I’m going to crawl back into this manuscript now. I’m actually getting paid to pick on the author’s grammar, whereas I’m just being a big nerd over here.

  194. tinfoil hattie

    TWISTOLUTION ’07: The Grammar Wars.

  195. roamaround

    Bird, you know your grammar and that is a fine skill to have. But (fragment! so sue me!) this pedantic grammar discussion has gone way too far. Marcy is right about classism. Grammar rules are completely arbitrary and just a way for those in power to claim prestige for their form of language. That is just basic social linguistics.

    Having said that, Twisty has a right to set expectations for her blog. I happen to prefer standard written English too. I thought Marcy put it well: “as long as someone is able to get their point across and their writing isn’t hard to read, then what’s the problem. I know it is Twisty’s rule, and I think that since this is her blog, *she* should be the one to reprimand someone if she feels it is necessary.”

    Do we really want women to be intimidated about comma splices when voicing their ideas here?

  196. Star42

    All this nitpicking over grammar is giving me a migraine! With all the problems in the world, is it really that important??

  197. scrappy

    I understand that being a grammar snob is rather classist, so I figure that as long as someone is able to get their point across and their writing isn’t hard to read, then what’s the problem.

    1. A polite request to put a capital letter at the beginning of each sentence does not a grammar snob make. Someone who complains about the use of “which” where “that” is deemed correct, now that’s a grammar snob.

    2. Grammar is a class issue, yes indeed, but anyone with basic literacy knows to capitalize the first letter of each sentence. And if you’re accusing TH of being classist because she asked DA to do so, I’d have to say that’s a bit rich.

    3. Writing that lacks capitalization IS hard to read — literally. That is the problem.

    You want my unsugared opinion? DeAnander’s going off in a huff at a polite request annoyed me, as did her passive-aggressive smiley-face moticons. And TH doesn’t have a damn thing to apologize for.

    Holy rolling popsicle, what a tempest in a teapot.

  198. Atto

    A little late to the thread:

    Oppressing women is a bad thing, and the quotes you provided do seem mysoganistic. However I do wish that you had acknowledged that while anal can be a power play in a bad way, some women do like anal and some like being submissive. You can argue that such people are the minority, but they do exist and their desires are not necessarily the result of a man’s oppressive desires or bad for those individuals.

    One need not be an “anal apologist” to admit to reality. It is possible to have a more nuanced view that can condemn misogyny while at the same time recognizing that some women enjoy and desire a kind of sex that many would not seek. Please do not do people a disservice by lumping the two categories together.

    Women can and do make choices of their own volition. Not all sex is the result of misogyny and not all women are helpless victims.

  199. Ismnotwasm

    First of all, feel free to correct my grammer anytime. I need it.

    On the topic, this reminds me of a book I read on Victorian era porn. Porn was distributed in illegal tracks at that time, and most of it had a very disturbing sado-masochistic bend. Very distrubing. In the scenarios, amoung other violent acts that attempted to mimic sex, the young female virgin was anally penetrated often, to “preserve” her virginity. I think that article is spot on. Right now I’m almost wishing I had never read that book because it’s depressing to think about how far we haven’t come. On the other hand, it’s something to keep in mind when considering how many sex-as-rape is just dandy apologists there really are.

  200. MzNicky

    From anal sex to grammatical correctness.

    Twisty, have mercy.

  201. pdxstudent

    It’s been said before, but I’ll add a bit I didn’t see earlier. Y’all can comment on grammar all you want, but understand that you should be critical about it and not judgemental. Being Twisty’s blog, it is her sole perogative to set the rules and judge those who she deems has broken them. There’s still room to talk about grammar, but you have to have a better reason than it is against Twisty’s rules. Taddling someone as a grammar snob is only slightly, if at all, better. If there is something vital at stake in someone’s usage of grammar– it’s never a matter of if it’s correct or incorrect, which do not corespond to grammatical and ungrammatical, the only remotely objective or worthwhile distinctions to be made about grammar as such– then point it out. For the love of hardwood-floors, let it be of substance though!

    Otherwise, let’s continue to talk about patriarchy, its methods of trashing the critical gaze, and the ways to subvert and ultimately over-throw it.

  202. thebewilderness

    You know Atto, that happens all the time around her. We just get so busy fretting over all that mysoginistic abusive murdering asshattery, we just don’t spend enough time on the miniscule percentage of men who act like decent human beings, or the equally miniscule percentage of women who just really really enjoy being abused. Faugh

    If there are grammatical errors in the foregoing rant, it probably won’t surprise anyone to hear that I don’t give a shit.

  203. de Selby

    Atto -

    It’s really, really not my place to address your comment in Twisty’s house, but you seem like an earnest fellah, and I’m going to take a modest crack at explaining to you why nobody here will take your views seriously.

    You said:
    some women do like anal and some like being submissive. You can argue that such people are the minority, but they do exist and their desires are not necessarily the result of a man’s oppressive desires or bad for those individuals.

    This is very far off the mark for several reasons, but I’ll focus on one:

    All this talk of anal sex in the media, and its popularity in porn, are not remotely based on what women like. In fact, the interlocutors openly admit – even glorify – the dimensions of male domination and “ownership” that are culturally tied to this practice.

    Your girlfriend’s individual kink is not germane to the issue at hand, which is the cultural matrix in which we form our judgments. She, and you (and I), are moving from point to point in our lives along the well-defined lines of that matrix. Our paths are those of least resistance, and we’re so comfortable navigating them that we don’t even see the huge, untraveled spaces between.

    If you can come to grips with that central concept, it becomes much easier to understand Twisty’s writing. She is off the accepted map, just as Harriet Tubman, or Anne Bonny were off theirs. Would you quibble with Ghandi about the pro-British attitudes of “some” Indians? If so, stop it. You’re making a fool of yourself.

    I apologize to IBTP’s community for my unbidden incursion of man-to-man talk into your neighborhood. I’m acutely aware that this is not the place for this sort of remedial blaming. I’m merely attempting to forestall a bloodletting.

    You may now return to your accustomed discourse.

    Thank you.

  204. MzNicky

    pdx student: I’m sorry, but your comment was so disjointed and grammatically incorrect that I can’t make heads or tails of it. See? This is why grammar and coherence matter.

    I don’t know why Twisty has abandoned us. It’s worrisome. Anal sex, whatever, I couldn’t fucking care less. Twisty and IBTP, on the other hand; I’m worried, frankly.

  205. Proteus

    If the girl likes anal, is it misogyny?

  206. StarWatcher

    Banshee = “porn is the graphic representation of rape, and therefore it sucks.”

    Could you please explain this a little more?

    Most women in porn have been coerced into it in one fashion or another — from their pimps using them to make more money, to being tricked, or drugged, or literally being kidnapped and trafficked as sex slaves. Biting Beaver has a lengthy analysis of the porn industry in a number of posts, compiled under this tag. Start with the posts at the bottom of the page, and read up.

  207. Marcy

    Grammar is a class issue, yes indeed, but anyone with basic literacy knows to capitalize the first letter of each sentence. And if you’re accusing TH of being classist because she asked DA to do so, I’d have to say that’s a bit rich.

    I’m not accusing TH of being classist. I like her comments, both here and on Pandagon.

    I think the whole thing just didn’t play out real well, and as much I love words and writing, I think it’s real hard to express oneself with the written word. Especially on the internet, where there is so much snark that it’s hard to communicate sometimes.

    I’m not going to belabor the point, though, or go into a play-by-play and analyze who could’ve phrased what differently during each point in the thread. Things happen. People get mad. People leave. That’s life.

  208. delphyne

    It’s sad when somebody who has so much to offer this community in the way of radical feminist thought and analysis as DeAnander gets driven away. She’s actually somewhat of a radical feminist luminary, and I’m surprised nobody else recognised her.

  209. I am Also anonymous for this one

    I also in awe of the quality of De Anander’s insight and prose. Given that she has specific problems with the physical aspects of typing I think we can all cut her some slack? I would not like to see anyone feel unwilling to contribute, especially for reasons that relate to the issues DeAnander spoke of.

  210. Spit The Dummy

    Delphyne said: It’s sad when somebody who has so much to offer this community in the way of radical feminist thought and analysis as DeAnander gets driven away.

    DeAnander was not “driven away”, she went off in a snit when asked POLITELY to used capital letters in her posts.

  211. delphyne

    I beg to differ Spit the Dummy. I think anybody who arrived at radical feminist blog, made a couple of posts of searing radical feminist analysis and then found that the content of what said wasn’t what people had responded to but rather her lack of capitalisation, might feel like it wasn’t worth sticking around.

    Just my opinion of course.

  212. tinfoil hattie

    Dag. I’m just friggin’ farsighted, is all. I have a hard time reading paragraphs that contain no capital letters. I asked politely. Then I got irritated at DeAnander’s response. Then I apologized for being rude. Then I went all meta on myself and analyzed everything.

    I just wanna be able to read the things that are written.

    I’ve got a degree in English, and while I amuse myself with mentally editing things like “the car had it’s muffler removed” or “I had to talk about why things were different with my boyfriend and I,” generally I don’t take people to task for their grammar. I don’t hold lack of grammar knowledge against anyone. Check out my own lazy writing throughout this post.

    One thing I do not own: DeAnander’s decision to leave and not post again.

    P.S. to Marcy: Hey, I didn’t think anyone at Pandagon liked my posts! I usually get upbraided for them. Doesn’t seem to stop me, though, does it. :-)

  213. pisaquari

    “Twisty and IBTP, on the other hand; I’m worried, frankly.”

    Me too MzNicky!

  214. Star42

    Twisty probably abandoned this place because it seems that all everyone here does is fight amongst each other over stupid things that don’t really matter. I think it’s time I give serious consideration to becoming a hermit. It appears that “suck” is the default setting for humanity. ‘Bye.

  215. Spit The Dummy

    Delphyne: I think she should have complied with the posting requirements of the blog when she posted her searing radical feminist analysis here – and then we wouldn’t be having this disagreement. We’d just be enjoying said analysis. Whatever anybody thinks of the grammar/punctuation rules of this blog, they ARE the rules and it’s polite to stick to them when posting here.

    So yes, I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree about this one.

  216. zofia

    Twisty probably abandoned this place because it seems that all everyone here does is fight amongst each other over stupid things that don’t really matter.

    Don’t really matter to you. Obviously it matters to others. Twisty has established a clear framework (available in her FAQ)for discourse on this blog and has on more than one occasion reminded us that we are permitted to post here for her pleasure and at her discretion. While I agree that DeAnader had interesting things to contribute, her insistence on disregarding Twisty’s rules and her subsequent (somewhat petulant) flounce seem to indicate that embedded in her discourse is an agenda that is incompatible with the stated goals and methods of this blog. Why the reticence to doing things Twisty’s way when in Twisty’s space? It’s like visiting a Japanese family and then refusing to remove your shoes even when asked. Yes, Yes, I know, you wear shoes in your house so everyone should hold to your standard even in their spaces. Power.

  217. niki

    I would guess that like most people who write blogs, Twisty started IBTP with the intention of encouraging like-minded souls to vent and discuss matters on which she has opinions and concerns without having commentators nit-picking each other or coming here from a defensive ‘other side’ (aka the marriage/babies side as well as the man side, the classist side, etc ad nauseum) so often that everyone becomes afraid to truly speak their minds.

    This is sad, because it relegates other like-minded people to less intelligent blogs for their fix of open, intelligent discussion on child-free, anti-marriage separatist radical feminism. Plus y’all sound like a bunch of hens at a pecking party. If this is what radical feminism has become, I’m going to have another mojito.

  218. Flamethorn

    A runon sentence is not “We went to the store and Jane bought some tofu.” A runon sentence is “We went to the store Jane bought some tofu.”

  219. PhysioProf

    “Twisty probably abandoned this place[.]”

    I seriously doubt Twisty has abandoned IBTP. Perhaps she is just engaged in other things for the time being.

  220. Cass

    Twisty is certainly entitled to a life of her own, but I wish she’d chase that image from the top of this post.

  221. tinfoil hattie

    “hens at a pecking party”

    Was that irony?

  222. Jezebella

    ““hens at a pecking party”

    Was that irony?”

    Nope. Misogyny.

  223. tinfoil hattie

    hee hee hee, Jez. Good catch.

  224. kate

    I posted last night but apparently it was eaten in moderation. I asked about the grammar as grammar is kind of a hobby for me, lacking the opportunity to study language like I would have, I am want to surreptitiously ask questions of more learned folks when the opportunity arises. I think that was a royal run-on.

    Those who find this pedantic or boring, please feel free ignore, no offense meant.

    Thanks Jez and Tin for saying what I was thinking.

  225. Anastasia B.

    It appears that all the nitpicking is going on because nobody has anything new to talk about since there hasn’t been a post from Twisty in 6 days. 6 DAYS! I need a fix, Twisty, come back soon!

  226. Toonces

    Hmm. Maybe not “hens at a pecking party”. Maybe “pissant power struggle”. Sweet buttery Christ on a cracker. DeAnander had great things to say. TH had trouble reading without the caps, and made a polite request. Feelings got slighted, and then it became a big grammar war.

    Yup, this IS Twisty’s blog, and she has rules. If Twisty wants to swoop in and unbraid someone as only Twisty can, she will. Unless someone is posting in heiroglyphics, maybe we can all wear our blamer caps a bit more and our hall-monitor caps a bit less. This feminist wilderness we all trek sometimes feels barren enough without attacking each other. Shouldn’t we save the fire for bigger dogs, like, oh I dunno–the PATRIARCHY?

    I need a drink. Niki, I may jump in on that mojito , or 3, with you.

  227. KH

    On the subject of not being able to read the comment text well, most browsers allow you to change the font size by going to View > Text Size > Increase. [Keyboard command on my browser: Ctrl ] This could be helpful to Tinfoil Hattie and others like her (like me–I often use this handy function).

    The word “please” tends to have passive aggressive connotations when written online. I’ve noted that it’s pretty difficult to overcome. I’m loathe to blame written language, but one usually has to use more (and goodly) words to convey the same content as spoken/seen language. Hence the dreaded emoticons. Sad to say, but a little smiley face would have fixed TH’s Capitalization Request right up.

  228. Ick

    While it is indeed abhorrent that certain men could find anal delightful precisely because they view it as degrading, I’m really uncomfortable with the number of comments on this thread that have boiled down to or relied upon the expression of gut reactions that anal is indeed degrading, harmful, dirty and unnatural. Can we please quit the icky heterosexism that insists on the weirdness and grossness of anything but penis-vagina sex? Please? I’m not a gay man, and I’m not into anal, but I’ve seen far too much seamless slippage from homophobia to horror at the penis being in ‘the wrong place’ and back again in this culture. If someone is a feminist, that doesn’t mean that all their instinctive emotional reactions will be nice feminist ones.

  229. Joan Kelly

    Atto, why is it necessary that in a critique of anal-as-pain-and-humiliation misogyny, we must add an asterisk of some-women-like-anal/submissive sex/anal-as-pain-and-humiliation? Why is it relevant to the lameness of the Details article? If you want to discuss a post or comments that state “women who like anal/submission/blahblahblah are the problem and let’s go fuckin’ get ‘em!”, I have no argument with that. I have not seen that post/comment here.

    Also – until such time as some population grows up without any sexualized male dominance and sexualized female submission in its influences, and some of that population still grows up kinky, it is meaningless to talk about the willfully de-contextualized choices of women who get off on sexual submissiveness.

  230. JR

    We miss you Twisty.

  231. Ron Sullivan

    Aw, Twisty’s probably just out surfin in her driveway.

    Or, now that (I hear) the sun’s finally threatening to come out, she’s taking photos of the many many mushrooms that come out with it. Just don’t eat ‘em, hon. I mean, unless you know them well and you know where they’ve been.

    Hey, now there’s a Life Rule for us all.

  232. Mike

    I love how you frame your argument so that anyone who disagrees it automatically somehow proving your point:

    “My advocacy for women’s entitlement to domination-free lives may sometimes look good on paper to liberal ‘feminist’ dudes, but they loudly demur when it comes time for them to acknowledge that they oppress women whether they like it or not, by virtue of their participation — whether it is a voluntary participation matters not a whit — in male dominant culture. When I explain why their position is untenable, that oppression is experienced by the oppressed as hate, it is interpreted as my crossing the boundaries of feminine propriety.”

    That’s really intellectually honest. Reminds me of so many Republican talking points.

  233. Scarred

    Twisty, I want to thank you for posting this “Details” article and blogging about it.

    You have just documented and proved what I have been suspecting for quite a long time; men are moving to new levels of hatred of women, and that it’s making consensual, egalitarian relationships and sexual activity almost impossible. It was horridly tough before, given that we live in a patriarchy, but the misogyny of American culture has taken on an unbelievably virulent and cruel form. And it takes people like you, Twisty, to hang tough and stand up to this bigoted degeneracy. Thank you.

    Articles like this make me happy that I’m celibate and alone. I went and checked out the Comment thread on the Details article; I was stunned at the level of entitlement and rationalization, particularly “Jonathan’s.”

    I guess the sixty-four-thousand dollar question we all must ask ourselves, is–***what on earth do we do about this?***

  234. Bird

    For those who misread me, I joined the grammar thing jokingly. I am paid to correct grammar, and I am fully aware that 99% of the world thinks that editors are pedantic bores.

    I am not going to argue the finer points of run-on sentences anymore, but I will state that there is more complexity to the issue than is taught in most schools. I have a nice piece of paper that says I have a communications degree with an editorial specialization, but that is neither here nor there.

    I did state above that it is up to Twisty to decide whose grammar is acceptable on her blog. I simply gave my professional opinion.

    As for both the grammar dictators and the grammar anarchists, get over it. Make the best effort you can to be clear and readable. Yes, that includes using capital letters, punctuation and paragraph breaks. But I will forgive you your misplaced commas and sentence fragments for the sake of good communication and the free sharing of ideas. I will, from time to time, make errors of my own. I’m okay with that. I may even do it (gasp!) on purpose.

    May there be peace in this blog.

  235. bernie68

    I have been noticing all the attention on television ads, mainly ads, to (mainly women’s) butts, buttocks, backsides…whatever it is that one calls it. (Specifically a mojito commercial is the only one that comes to mind right now, of course. But I have noticed it as a phenomena for some time.)

    It goes along with the idea that anal sex is acceptable to most women. I honestly don’t think it is, but I really don’t know.
    I have tried it at the request of a guy, back when I was young enough to not even being aware that such a thing existed. And it was horrible, painful and I felt demeaned and humiliated, which I now believe was that point. (I never saw him again by my choice.)

    During a short teaching stint to pregnant high school girls, I found out that lots of girls will do it anally (or give blow jobs) so as to remain virgins. My response was that anal sex was the best way to gets A.I.D.S. from a partner if he has it, which they were surprised to know.

    But the prevalence of calling women ‘hos’ in music and on TV is really lowering the public discourse. My other pet gripe is that when men use the term of calling other men ‘girls’ as if that was an insult.

    What man with any respect for females would consider that an insult to men? (Remember Schwarzenegger used ‘girly men’ as an insult?)

    So, yes, I do believe that men have a lot of built-in hate to women and whether it’s this current culture or if it’s always and all-the-time, I don’t know, but it’s important to be aware of it.
    Thanks for you post.

    And to ‘Bird’, thank you for stressing grammar.

  236. NoOneYouKnow

    I’d like to point out that this article was published in Details magazine, a “lad mag” competing with other lad mags (Maxim, Blender, etc.) and GQ and Esquire for readership; also, Details tries to be more “edgy” and smart than the others(I hate that word). The result is usually sensationalized crap written to draw in the usually clueless fratboy; the subjects don’t give their names because: they’re suits who don’t want to sully their careers by having anyone know that they have sex; they know they’re pigs, and can only speak anonymously to other pigs; and they might not exist. I’ve met some of the writers for these magazines, and they tend to be drunken, 20-ish, insecure to the point of frightened, and possibly closeted. (For some stellar examples of misogynist queeniness, try Esquire.) I know a couple of guys like the ones in the article; they tend to get really clingy in relationships and are sometimes sorted out by some time in a 12-step program. Most of the guys I know aren’t like this, or used to be before getting clues passed out by more evolved guys, women, and time/experience. Most of the guys I know are, at the very least, not evil, selfish pigs, even though culture and upbringing tend to push them in that direction. Generally, most men I know are trying to get past childhoods and adolescences of abuse, neglect, and emotional impaction, inflicted by family and culture. Which leads me to my final point; we need to raise our sons not to be evil pigs, ie, not American men as the mainstream culture would have them be, and our daughters not to put up with this shit. For the record, I’m a guy.

  237. random lurker

    I haven’t read through the whole comments section but heres my 2 cents:

    I don’t think anal sex is automatically degrading. It, like just about any action can be MADE degrading, as this article illustrates, but that isn’t unique to anal, or any kind of sex or really any action. driving someone somewhere is not normally degarding, but it can be made so. Is driving a degrading action? Of course not.

    To sum: if you enjoy anal go for it, if you don’t, stick with what you like.

    yay simple solutions.

  238. Penny

    I’m worried about Twisty. I hope she’s out eating tacos with Stingray or taking photos of bugs. Anybody know?

  239. SisterJ

    Twisty, holla if you hear me :)

  240. Ron Sullivan

    I am paid to correct grammar, and I am fully aware that 99% of the world thinks that editors are pedantic bores.

    I was about to reassure Bird that she was not alone here, that the place seems to be crawling, um, heavily enhanced with us, when I realized I didn’t know the venereal noun for “editors.”

    So. What are we? A graf of editors? An expunge of editors? A quibble of editors? An infallibility of editors?

    Keep in mind that I work both sides of the street, being a freelance editor as well as a freelance writer. Yes, I’m bitextual.

  241. thebewilderness

    I wish that you were an infallibility of editors, but I fear that you are a quibble.

  242. mearl

    Atto, I think plenty of people would enjoy anal sex if it were only about one person giving another person pleasure. However, in this delightful patriarchy-soaked world that we inhabit, the definition of anal sex, as defined by men, is something you do TO women that women would not normally like done, something that is painful for us and pleasurable for them, humiliating for us and a triumph for them. It’s something they trick us into giving up to them, that will give them bragging rights in the male forum. Thas why some feminists gots problems wit it. This feminist included.

  243. thebewilderness

    Ron,
    I changed my mind. I think you would be a brilliance of editors. The truth is that I have been wondering lately whether the editors have become too kind, or the writers are simply hopeless.

  244. Rich

    I found this statement bizarre

    “in a patriarchy, wherein one class oppresses another for its own profit, there can be no ‘consent’ between oppressor and oppressed.”

    For an ostensibly feminist blog you are making a pretty extensive claim here. It seems to be a claim that every woman in every interaction with every man in all cases has the wrong end of the power relationship stick, is inevitably being coerced and can never honestly give consent to anything ever. This smacks of massive overreach.

    Firstly, there exist plenty of relationships where the man for one or more reasons has less power than the woman. Understanding this requires no more than an understanding that people are all different, some are more powerful than others and the mysteries of human interactions will result in some meetings/interactions and god forbid couplings involving a relatively more powerful woman.

    To claim that even if an über-shy man gingerly asks the girl he has a crush on if she would considering going to the movies with him, and she decideds that she would like to go and says yes, that there can be no actual consent because she is in fact being opressed, is a little odd.

  245. tinfoil hattie

    Go, mearl.

  246. a guy named dave

    A depressing thing about this thread (and some others at IBTP) is that it makes me feel like a rare mythical creature for being a straight guy who actually likes women (as much or more than men on the average), respects the consent, privacy, health and hygiene, of his sexual partners, and actually finds mutual pleasure and intimacy vastly more desirable than humiliation, cruelty, domination and bragging rights. I’m trumpeting this as achievement or expecting congratulation — I’m lazy, self-absorbed and often foolish, but apparently the bar isn’t set very high these days, and just not wanting to degrade and hurt your partner makes you out of the ordinary. Which is profoundly depressing.

    Though I think anal is fine if done right, should both participants be enthused about the idea. The problem with demanding anal is obviously the demand part, and once it becomes a matter of demanding and coercing, all sex becomes perverse, regardless of its physical expression.

  247. a guy named dave

    I shudder in embarrassment. My first blaming, and I inadvertently omit the word ‘not’ before the word ‘trumpeting’ in the previous comment. I blame nervousness at even attempting to mingle with the august and erudite company of blamers, in the midst of a grammar war even.

  248. Jeni

    Twisty, come back!

  249. Anonymous!

    To avoid being accused of sucking up to our hostest with the mostest, this message is annonymous.

    I LOVE THIS WOMAN! I know nothing about her except she possesses one character trait which I absolutly adore. She is human and so therefore most assurably possesses other character traits which would render her imperfect. But I don’t care about those!

    Twisty possesses the one trait which will always instill fear in those who do not possess it. This is bad enough, all by itself, but when this trait is combined with a brilliant intelligence, a little compassion (but not too much!) and a flaming quest for justice, good god almighty does she become a force to be reckoned with!

    COURAGE

    Twisty, you are much loved!

    It takes courage to see the truth, and even more courage to speak the truth, and still more courage to continue even in the face of nasty people who would stop you if they could.

    You are an inspiration, Twisty.
    thank you

  250. Octogalore

    mearl, I think you’re right about the overall definition of anal in our world. But I think what Atto may be getting at, although I can’t speak for her, is that what may generally be a triumph, a bragging right conveyer, a trick, done TO women, and unwanted and/or humiliating to us, may not operate that way in every individual context.

    So I think while it’s fair that you have problems with it in the context of its presentation by Details as a male coup, it seems unfair to assume it takes that form in every relationship, or that savvy women can’t determine for themselves what it means in ours.

    Anal isn’t something I particularly care for, and it is hard for me to fathom how it could be fun… but, I’ve been told it can be, by women who would never go along with anything they didn’t want to do, or in some cases insisted on doing. So who am I to say, because it’s not for me, and because it can take a patriarchal form in some circumstances, that I know what form it takes in a relationship I’m not in?

  251. random lurker

    On Another note… heres a story that fits the topic

    http://www.tuckermax.com/archives/entries/date/tucker_tries_buttsex_hilarity_does_not_ensue.phtml#278

    its a story of a guy who tries buttsex. I’m pretty sure it would have fit right in with the article.

  252. goblinbee

    Is there anyone here who’s in personal contact with Twisty who can let us know if she’s okay?

  253. Miller

    I doubt anyone will read this but:

    I am so disturbed that we have increasingly used “sex” (with all its strong, positive associations) and tied it bigotry (“SEXism”) and rape (“SEX crime”). You might as well just call it “GOODism” or a “GOOD crime.”

    I used to think the public believed male sexuality (the only legitimate one) canceled the effect, but now I realize they believe it *justifies* a blatant hate crime (Since male are morally superior to females, male desire deems the act moral).

    Lastly: DETAILS is the same magazine that had the following headline on its cover in October 2003 (I believe): “Forget Feminism: Why Women Should Take Your Name.” “Should” interjects a sense of morality and widely attacking the idea that women and girls are human is a bit much. Just a bit.

  254. josquin

    I know there have been ongoing horrific floods in Texas – possibly causing havoc with Twisty headquarters. But I’m getting worried about Twisty also. I hope we hear very soon that all is well.

  255. LJ Dugan

    I tried contacting Redneck Mother, to no avail. The damned halo scan was on the fritz. Mother, if you’re out there and could possibly let us know what’s going on with Twisty, I’m sure we would all greatly appreciate it.

    Anybody know Stingray? BitchPh.D? Those are the only options I can think of. Hope you’re okay, Twisty.

  256. Valkyrie

    I can’t seem to get Twisty’s e-mail address shown above to work but would like to submit for your blaming pleasure:

    http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2007/07/23/070723ta_talk_thomas

    If anyone could clear up the e-mail address mystery (two @’s?)I would appreciate it.

  257. tinfoil hattie

    The IBTP board is down. This feels ominous. Flooding? Illness? I am going to bad places.

  258. marzipan

    Twisty’s fine. Just busy.

  259. MzNicky

    marzipan: Do you know this for sure?

  260. MzNicky

    Valkrie: Just one “@”. It’s

    taco [at]iblamethepatriarchy [dot]com.

  261. Jezebella

    IBTP forum is back up and working fine. Twisty is probably out wrangling spiders and construction crews out in her real life.

  262. Jezebella

    Valkyrie, the interviewee in that article hits anti-feminist BINGO in about three paragraphs. Astonishing efficiency.

  263. marzipan

    I know it as of a few hours ago when I talked to her. :)

  264. delagar

    Thanks, Marzipan! I was fretting, too.

  265. kate

    Ron: “Yes, I’m bitextual.” snork. I love it.

    I recall that Twisty announced after the Mandos Scandal that she would not be stopping by IBTP on a regular basis. She said she also probably would let a post run for awhile, that maintaining the blog was getting larger than she had thought possible and she wanted her life back.

    I do not begrudge her for wanting a life of her own, nor do I begrudge one changing their course at times. All the same, thanks marzipan for the update, cause considering her circumstances, I was worried a bit myself.

  266. tinfoil hattie

    Thanks for the update — and let’s head to the boards and BLAME!!!

    After all, that’s why Twisty set ‘em up for us, eh?

    See ya on the other side.

  267. Anastasia B.

    I, for one, am very glad to hear that all is well is Twistyland. She is, of course, entitled to have a life away from from IBTP. Come back and check on us from time to time, though, will you please? We worry.

  268. Patti

    I would LOVE for that photo to go away and to get a nice bug again. I swear my monitor sets off a stink when this page opens.

  269. MzNicky

    Patti: Me, too, and if Twisty’s okay, then I have to say it’s starting to piss me off that every time I check in here I have to look at that goddam ugly thing once AGAIN.

  270. Calabama

    Thanks for the very good news, Marzipan.

  271. Valkyrie

    Thanks MzNicky – that worked.

    Glad to hear Twisty is well. She probably needed a break after writing this post!

  272. mearl

    Octo, I would personally not have too much of a problem with anal if it weren’t for this overarching philosophy of guys. In fact, I wouldn’t have too much of a problem with much in the world, if it weren’t for the overarching philosophies of guys. I’ve seen enough in my sexual gallavanting to have it confirmed that guys – despite their insecurities, hopes, dreams, considerations, and well-meaning egalitarian intentions – still draw on the misognyistic outlook of the greater lad culture when it comes to their perspectives on sex. It’s something they seem to fall back on whether they are being told otherwise by honest, individual women or not.

    The fact that the misogynistic outlook is out there and frequented “anonymously” by millions of guys means that those same guys are out there either pretending to be nice guys some of the time, or enacting this misogynistic thinking upon hapless women who don’t deserve it. Statistics confirm this, and many a story from any woman you ask will inevitably bring up some hideous underbelly of what seemed to be a nice guy for the most part. Individual circumstances are different in many cases, I am sure, and exceptions exist. However, I would probably more inclined to take your glass-half-full attitude towards men if misogyny WEREN’T the norm in the media “fantasy” world of males, be it porn, Details, locker-room talk, or what gets yelled at me when I walk past a bunch of drunks at the bar. If I got regular confirmation, when I opened up a men’s magazine or overheard guys’ honest chats about sex, that respect for women was the mainstay in their thoughts, fantasies, and hopes for a sex life, then I probably wouldn’t have much to worry about. As it stands, abuse, disrespect and degradation seem to be the norm, and it’s coming from SOMEWHERE. My suspicions fall on “men’s sense of entitlement.” One gets more confirmation that men hate women at some time and on some level, pretty much anywhere one goes, than otherwise. It’s affecting the rest of culture, too, because the real young women out there are listening to the media spin and thinking that these things should be the norm. They ARE spending their dough to have all the hair ripped out of the chacha and learning the techniques on how to take it up the arse, instead of saying to the guys, “You first, buddy.” Frankly, it’s a problem. I hail Twisty for the post.

  273. mearl

    Oh yeah, and for those feminists who believe that lovely notion that misogyny and sex acts are not watershed issues between the genders, but just a simple question of “individual choice,” whyncha check out the commentary at feministing, which includes many an example such as the following one posted by temporary125:

    “I and my (female) partner went into a sex shop we’d never visited before in order to buy some lube, and we asked the assistant for advice about buying some which was good for anal use. He was practically falling over himself with delight. He said that women come into the shop ALL THE TIME asking for anal lube with numbing agents because their boyfriends/husbands keep asking them for anal and they think they’re required to “let” them; I was profoundly shocked by this, although not really surprised. The assistant kept telling us how delighted he was to sell anal lube to people who actually wanted to enjoy anal.”

    Linky link link:

    http://feministing.com/archives/007339.html

  274. Nabiha Meher

    I agree that pressuring women into anal sex is heinous. It is also true, however, that some women do enjoy it. Also, Muslim girls who are too scared to lose their virginity have anal sex in order to keep their hymens intact and to prevent their boyfriends from cheating on them. That’s another subtle form of male pressure: either you give me something sexually or I’ll get it somewhere else.

  275. suchprettyeyes

    So, I am a gay woman who really really really enjoys anal sex with my lovely female partner. There is no pain, there is no weird domination angle to it (not that I’m against a little s&m in general) it’s just really really sexually fulfilling because, done right, it’s just an awesome sensual experience.

    Now I’m not saying that men don’t see anal sex (or any sex) in a really different light but I think the issue of humiliation and pain is much more to do with repression and embarrassment/poor education about good sexual practice (being caring about your partner, communication and, for gods sake, lube) than this specific sex act per se.

    After all any sex can be humiliating, unpleasant or one sided in some contexts but liberating, pleasurable and mutual in others. A woman who doesn’t reach orgasm but will neither communicate what is going on or be honest about it can cause her partner extreme humiliation and a sense of failure. And a woman who will not say what she does not like may leave her partner feeling perpetually guilty about asking for sex immediately putting that partner in a state of inadequate self-loathing. Sometimes silent submissiveness can be just as contributory to an unequal and unhappy sex life as boarish dominance or fetishistic insistence on specific sex acts.

    Men describe orgasm as nearest in sensation to peeing and I think that can really put a lot of their feverish sexual behavior into a new light. Clearly they will enjoy anal sex but to prove they are not a pig they better be warming up their ladies first and making sure they attend to clits and cerebral titillation before they go near the ass. Pain is not a word that should be occurring in an good anal encounter. Ever. I am appalled how often it’s used as a shortcut to jokes in tv and movies as it presupposes that all anal sex is non consensual, does not involve lube and is utterly unpleasant to receive but good to give. I think that’s a pretty homophobic attitude but also wonder if any woman asked for anal sex with a man shouldn’t make sure he is also up for anal play and ensure that there is equity of activity. Only a very stupid man would say no as their own prostate gland is well stimulated from behind and the nerve endings in their asshole far more sensitive than their penis. Once they realize the need for lube, care and respect I’m sure they will be adequately trained for giving good anal without the macho bullshit.

    Anyway, my main point is: anal sex can be absolutely awesome. Use lots of lube, communication and for goodness sake don’t trade off taboos when drunk as sexual satisfaction does not that way lie.

  276. Amberbug

    “Sometimes silent submissiveness can be just as contributory to an unequal and unhappy sex life as boarish dominance or fetishistic insistence on specific sex acts.”

    This piece I have to say uh-uh. In no way does a woman “not saying” what she “does not like” contribute to her own ordeal of another human making her suffer it. Should I as a women care so much about a partner feeling guilty for putting something inside me I may not want up there, but gee I forgot I “have to say NO”? If I don’t, Up/in/on it goes, so ouch (because remember, by this scenerio it is painful or unwanted), plus I carry responsibility for damaging the relationship?
    I never will see it being some powerful and equal act of damage to a relationship to be mute when you don’t want something. It helped me stay alive to not protest. It is not for said sexual partner to tell me some insane rule they have that if i don’t say no, defend myself against them causing sexual pain to me, I ruin the relationship. Muteness is a survival techinique, a PTSD reaction- why blame a woman in there, too? I feel an insistance here that women who don’t protest their sexual pain in relationships are causing it “as much as”? At all? I hate the guilt it tries to bring. I should have spoken up and not let it happen. Like I have the responsibility to deflate the patriarcy’s assumptions, and people seeking sex with me are going to shove that clever relationship rule on me so they can have the wonderful guiltfree experience of “the sex”. This is a lot on women to say no, otherwise it’s a yes, according to- everyone. This should ring a bell.

    “And a woman who will not say what she does not like may leave her partner feeling perpetually guilty about asking for sex immediately putting that partner in a state of inadequate self-loathing.”

    This isn’t “what about the menz”, but it sure is “what about the partner of a woman who doesn’t want to feel guilty (held accountable) for something they suspect may be unwanted, but does anyway”. For said partner’s self loathing IBTP- or/and the partner. But not the silent (shame on her for “causing a guilt reaction by not speaking up) object of said unwanted sex. This is like S&M meets marriage counselling for battered women. I also just don’t think a woman should be made responsible for anyone’s sense of inadequacy in bed. That’s fragile ego speak.
    Maybe this wasn’t meant to echo the creepy line of boyfriends who blamed me because I didn’t “speak up”, in time,(?) in the appropriate narrow ways they defined it, but it did.

    “A woman who doesn’t reach orgasm but will neither communicate what is going on or be honest about it can cause her partner extreme humiliation and a sense of failure.”
    This is what I call “oh poor me, I hurt my partner” privilege. How does one get caused humiliation or a sense of failure assuming the delusion is ongoing that she enjoys “it”? If you find out she didn’t, stop trying to do stuff you want to her unless and until there is clarity, and don’t blame any person who doesn’t like what you do to their body. Non communication is not consent, or blameworthy.
    This wasn’t the main point of the above post, and isn’t addressed to anyone in particular, but I needed to say something.

  277. Don

    I hate to post this but you were wondering where this is going? Well I have this feeling that now that men have “explored” every orifice of their partners the next step is creating an artificial one in their ladies and exploring that.

    Now that I have said that I am off to be sick sorry.

  278. tara

    OMG! I LOOOOOOOVE anal sex!!! It makes me feel SOOOO powerful! It’s like, wow, I’m totally in control! I hate those dumb feminists who are all like, “anal sex can damage your rectum and is an inherently degrading act that is dangerously becoming reified by the ubiquitous porn/rape culture in which we live.” That’s like, so not true! It’s awesome. What could be more powerful than taking control of like, my own life–I decide who gets to ream me from behind and brag to his friends about it!

  279. Aine

    This is weird- the whole need to brag to other men about their sexploits reminds me of nothing so much as when, at age 13, I realized that girls weren’t dressing up at school for the boys, who obviously didn’t care, but for the other girls. I know we mature a little faster than they do, but this is a little ridiculous…

  280. Squirrel

    I find the assumption that any sex, and anal sex in particular are activities of male domination astounding. That men think this way is terribly sad. They are willing to abandon their autonomy for a few moments of perceived superiority. They will change their appearance, modes of expression, behavior, personal opinions and religious perspective to attract or satisfy another person. They imagine themselves having some semblance of control of their lives after abandoning their personal identity to please someone who, ultimately, hates them. This is not only irrational behavior, but to a species whos member’s behavior is shifting to be more learned than inherited it is potentially dangerous. I wonder if, cultural conditioning and peer pressure aside, human beings can ever coexist peacefully, even on a tiny scale.

  281. Seth

    Amberbug: Good sex(as well as SAFE sex)absolutely REQUIRES communication! Suchprettyeyes is 100% correct. If you cant muster the nerve to communicate with your partner during sex than maybe you really shouldnt be having sex with them in first place.

  282. Itxaro

    Why yes, I am way way way late to the party.

    Seth: Amberbug’s point wasn’t that communication shouldn’t happen in sex. Amberbug’s point was that “no” is the default answer until consent is given. Failure to say “no” does not mean that someone likes what is being done and/or is okay with it.

    Good sex involves two people who are paying attention to each others’ body language, how much pleasure they seem to be getting, AS WELL AS what they are saying. It’s really not that hard to figure out when your partner orgasms, whether or not they tell you. It’s really not that hard to take a good look at someone and tell if they’re just seizing up and withdrawing into themselves and hoping it’ll be over, or if they’re actively participating and enjoying it. And if you, in bed, no matter what gender you are, initiate something, you’d better be damn sure you’re checking in with your partner.

  283. Embee

    Regarding the NEXT new third base, perhaps we should look to that harbinger of partriarchy: Tucker Max. I believe it was he who proposed “carving a fuckhole into her chest.” Can’t recall where I read that but pretty sure that’s the guy.

    Also, Itxaro, I totally agree. Stated differently, no partner should have to be playing defense in bed.

  284. Emma

    Proteus said “If not for men, how would the human race propagate?”

    I guess that means Proteus has never heard of what scientists are now doing with bone marrow. They have figured out a way to turn bone marrow into sperm. No joke. All children born from this procedure are female. Don’t believe me? Google “bone marrow sperm.”

    Also, I would like to say this article really made me sad. But then I remembered something I read about the male chromosome shrinking. Take heart, ladies: men will soon be extinct and with bone marrow sperm, we won’t need them!

  285. DDD

    [Note: DDD, unfortunately, displayed non-compliance and had to be run through the PooPoop-U-Lator. -- Jill]

    DDD
    d77fitzppoopootrick@gmpoopooil.com
    174.96.14.199
    Submitted on 2011/06/03 poopoot 2:16poopoom

    First I wpoopoont to know the percentpoopooges of lesbipoopoons poopoond strpoopooight edge prudes frequenting this blog(not repoopoolly – I don’t cpoopoore).

    I think thpoopoot could epoopoosily be the title for this reply: I don’t cpoopoore

    in fpoopooct I would like to go poopoohepoopood poopoond mpoopooke poopoon poopoonnouncement for poopooll my strpoopooight Cpoopooucpoopoosipoopoon mpoopoole brethren. I stumbled onto this blog, poopoond forced my wpoopooy skimming through the poopoorticle. I’ve hepoopoord feminists, minorities poopoond those whose sexupoopool preferences poopoore (shpoopoole we spoopooy) poopoot odds with the beliefs of the west borough dipshits. Constpoopoont comments poopoobout our (being the collective of strpoopooight Cpoopooucpoopoosipoopoon mpoopooles) poopoogendpoopoos being to put you down. repoopoolly??? poopoore you shitting me??? I don’t cpoopoore. I don’t cpoopoore if your poopoo wompoopoon. I don’t cpoopoore whpoopoot color your skin is. I don’t cpoopoore who you wpoopoont to sleep with. The yepoopoor is 2011 I’m not spoopooying there poopooren’t prejudice strpoopooight Cpoopooucpoopoosipoopoon mpoopooles, I’m just spoopooying they poopoore the smpoopoollest minority (poopoond I don’t cpoopoore poopoobout them). I know it might not look like it to you. but guess whpoopoot hpoopooppens when you climb up on poopoo sopoopoop box poopoond stpoopoort yelling. Thpoopoot’s right those who strongly poopoogree poopoond strongly poopooppose come running to join the cpoopoocophony. Let me put your mind poopoot epoopoose though the mpoopoojority of us poopoore wpoopooy to busy just trying to either poopoottpoopooin or mpoopoointpoopooin poopoo lifestyle thpoopoot will poopoollow us to go to the grpoopoove spoopooying : I did poopoolright.

    So just remember, next time the chip on your shoulder stpoopoorts itching poopoond you feel like pointing thpoopoot finger in my generpoopool direction: I just don’t cpoopoore, I’m to busy living my life.

    p.s. hpoopoove fun tepoopooring my sentence structure, spelling poopoond grpoopoommpoopoor – such just displpoopooys poopoo lpoopoock intelligible response.

    p.p.s. before you go off on poopoo clepoopoorly you didn’t repoopood poopoond missed the finer points tpoopoongent. The generpoopool of the poopoorticle is : this is poopoo mpoopoonner in which modern mpoopoon oppresses us – sisters unite. followed by men poopoore pigs reply posts.

  286. Neira

    Quote:

    ‘Yeah, I sense the next frontier for these assholes will be “existing orifices are not enough, real men must create their own new hole for penetration.”

    Scary thing is…I don’t think that’s hyperbole.

    I can imagine it already. Surgery porn. It will probably start as a fringe interest that only a few whackjobs will go near. Then mainstream guys will start looking at it because their old stuff now seems too tame.

    I know only one guy, ONE – again, ONE – for whom anal sex is actually ABOUT ASSES. He likes receiving it, too.

    Most however..it’s a dominance thing. They want it, but freak out at the idea of their girlfriend doing anything anal to them.

  1. The Hackenblog » “Dudes won’t support feminism unless there’s something in it for them.”

    [...] “These glittering examples of Western manhood appear not to grasp the irony of responding with hate to a men-hate-you argument. The justification for their subsequent personal attacks (one fellow human recently expressed his happy anticipation of my rapidly impending obituary) seems to be that I am just not obsequious enough. Insufficient obsequiosity apparently invalidates any argument made by a feminist, however shimmeringly astute it may otherwise be. As a cause, the fight against the oppression of half the human population is only supportable if it is presented with a solicitous head-tilt, a pert giggle, and an invitation to fuck you in the ass.” Anal is the new ‘third base’, Twisty, July 15, 2007 [...]

  2. Reclusive Leftist » Blog Archive » Twisty goes the scatalogical route so I don’t have to

    [...] But it’s a new world. Now every young American male is consumed with the yearning to fuck some woman up the butt, and today Twisty explains why in Anal is the new ‘third base’. Of course I knew this already, but the Twist has such a way with words. [...]

  3. Feministe » So, is it OK?

    [...] Jessica, Amanda, Twisty and Violet Socks have all written about this article: Is it OK to Demand Anal Sex?. [...]

  4. So, is it OK? at Hoyden About Town

    [...] Jessica, Amanda, Twisty and Violet Socks have all written about this article: Is it OK to Demand Anal Sex?. [...]

  5. On Asses and Assholery | Elaine Vigneault’s Diary

    [...] Details magazine, of which I subscribed to as a teen in order to learn more about ‘men’, published an article about anal sex. The feminists got in an uproar. Why? Because the article wasn’t about anal sex, it was about rape. From Feministe: “Jessica, Amanda, Twisty [Twisty has the best picture accompanying the article] and Violet Socks have all written about this article: Is it OK to Demand Anal Sex?. …virtually every respondent noted for starters, when is it ever OK to demand any kind of sex? (The title mysteriously changed to Is Anal Sex a Deal-Breaker?)” [...]

  6. We Love America More Than Anyone. » women love anal secs

    [...] i know i’m not the house feminist here, but i always love a good anal sex post. [...]

  7. » Anal Apologists

    [...] Meanwhile, over at I Blame the Patriarchy, a post mostly focused on the “escalation of porn culture” and how “anal is the new third base,” ends (in typical form, for this blog): Now, before you anal apologists flood my inbox with your porntastic personal anecdotes, hear this: in a patriarchy, wherein one class oppresses another for its own profit, there can be no ‘consent’ between oppressor and oppressed. [...]

  8. BOINKOLOGY: Insightful analysis of sex and culture.

    [...] Boinkology wants, very much, to be all live and let live (hey, we even agreed with Wendy Shalit!). Boinkology wants to let people have their opinions so long as they respect ours. Boinkology wants that, but then Boinkology happens to surf over to I Blame The Patriarchy and read a diatribe on why increasing rates of hetero anal action serves as iron clad proof that men hate women (really, that’s the argument). [...]

  9. Still undead at I Blame The Patriarchy

    [...] First, I must defend the stinkhorn mushroom. Although I used the photo, in a moment of unbridled puerility, to illustrate an essay on a patriarchal practice one dudely (and deleted) commenter calculated as the heart’s desire of “75% of the girls I date,”* and then left the photo at the top of the blog for two weeks while I sat around watching the Food Channel, it was never my intention that the reader should attach any kind of lasting misogynist significance to the innocent and spectacular fungus. In fact, as the country’s foremost authority on preternatural growths, I consider this stinkhorn to be one of the seven wonders of the excrescential world. It is my enduring hope that everyone reading this will have the remarkable good fortune to amble through some fetid undergrowth one fine summer’s day and be personally astonished by the stinky and majestic hot pink splendor of a freshly-fruited M. elegans. [...]

  10. There is NO REASON to bleach your butthole. « Rage Against the Man-chine

    [...] But don’t get mad at me. I’m not the one who has brought us to the point where men are demanding that women “do anal” and women are expected to not only acquiesce — whether [...]

  11. This must be one of those “eye of the beholder” things. « Rage Against the Man-chine

    [...] on the Details site about whether it was OK to “demand anal” (see Twisty’s take here, as I’ll not be linking to the original). That article was so outrageous and absurd that I [...]

  12. Glamourising sexualised violence: Why I hate porn part four | anti social butterfly

    [...] high occurances of anal fucking in male-stream pornography, it does not seem that unlikely that anal is expected as part of the standard penetrative fucking experience) nor is it particularly healthy (here’s a hint, ask any year 8 human biol teacher and they [...]

  13. Dude wins by default, plus Open Thread! « I Blame The Patriarchy

    [...] of the occasional would-be dude commenter? Well, here’s some fan mail from a flounder whose dickish remarks on this amusing old post I was recently obliged to run through the PooPoop-U-Lator*, on accounta [...]

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