<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.2.1" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Florida to consider actually educating public school students</title>
	<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 19:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1</generator>

	<item>
		<title>By: ElizaN</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106489</link>
		<author>ElizaN</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106489</guid>
		<description>"This ‘egalitarian’ notion that science should be ‘balanced out’ with mythical literary debris dreamed up by ancient barbarians has got to go."

When I was in high school, it was.  Tenth grade.  First period we went to biology class where we learned science, and second period we went to world literature, where in the first quarter we read the Iliad and the Odyssey, the Aeneid, Ovid, and Herodotus.  Ah, the good old days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This ‘egalitarian’ notion that science should be ‘balanced out’ with mythical literary debris dreamed up by ancient barbarians has got to go.&#8221;</p>
<p>When I was in high school, it was.  Tenth grade.  First period we went to biology class where we learned science, and second period we went to world literature, where in the first quarter we read the Iliad and the Odyssey, the Aeneid, Ovid, and Herodotus.  Ah, the good old days.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Feminist Avatar</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106048</link>
		<author>Feminist Avatar</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106048</guid>
		<description>Aw shucks! Now I'm embarrassed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aw shucks! Now I&#8217;m embarrassed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Puffin</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106043</link>
		<author>Puffin</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106043</guid>
		<description>I *heart* Feminist Avatar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I *heart* Feminist Avatar.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mar Iguana</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106038</link>
		<author>Mar Iguana</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106038</guid>
		<description>"...it is a bit arrogant of us to assume that we got it right and everybody else, for the rest of time and across cultures, is wrong."

Feminist Avatar, Huzzah!

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
than are dreamt of in your philosophy."  Hamlet, Scene v</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;it is a bit arrogant of us to assume that we got it right and everybody else, for the rest of time and across cultures, is wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>Feminist Avatar, Huzzah!</p>
<p>&#8220;There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<br />
than are dreamt of in your philosophy.&#8221;  Hamlet, Scene v</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Feminist Avatar</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106033</link>
		<author>Feminist Avatar</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-106033</guid>
		<description>Ultimately, who decides what is true is usually the group or person with the most social power. In America, you have a problem where the Christian right are similarly powerful to western scientists, leading to huge conflict about what is right or wrong. In other societies, where there is less division, there is a more broadly shared consensus about what is true.

Part of the goal, therefore, should not be to say who is right or wrong, but to reach a consensus that does not infringe on the rights of others. We make truth as a people; it is not 'out there' to be found or determined. As feminists, we want to make a 'truth' that has no place for patriarchy and oppression. 

At the end of the day, even is there is a real truth written into the core of the earth (which not everybody thinks there is), it is a bit arrogant of us to assume that we got it right and everybody else, for the rest of time and across cultures, is wrong. Furthermore, just because we all agree on something still doesn't make it true. We used to all agree that the sun went round the earth... it was testable because the sun came up in the same place every morning and set in the same place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ultimately, who decides what is true is usually the group or person with the most social power. In America, you have a problem where the Christian right are similarly powerful to western scientists, leading to huge conflict about what is right or wrong. In other societies, where there is less division, there is a more broadly shared consensus about what is true.</p>
<p>Part of the goal, therefore, should not be to say who is right or wrong, but to reach a consensus that does not infringe on the rights of others. We make truth as a people; it is not &#8216;out there&#8217; to be found or determined. As feminists, we want to make a &#8216;truth&#8217; that has no place for patriarchy and oppression. </p>
<p>At the end of the day, even is there is a real truth written into the core of the earth (which not everybody thinks there is), it is a bit arrogant of us to assume that we got it right and everybody else, for the rest of time and across cultures, is wrong. Furthermore, just because we all agree on something still doesn&#8217;t make it true. We used to all agree that the sun went round the earth&#8230; it was testable because the sun came up in the same place every morning and set in the same place.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shell Goddamnit</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105990</link>
		<author>Shell Goddamnit</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 06:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105990</guid>
		<description>"The problem for Western Science, in my view, is that we do not know whether our system of doing things is ultimately the ‘right’ way (or for some people whether there is ultimately going to be a ‘right’ way). Because in the future, somebody might come along and say what you count as evidence isn’t really evidence at all and what you think causes something, doesn’t cause it at all. And we’ll say ‘but its testable and repeatable’; and they’ll say ’so is our system’"

Yes, but are both systems testable &#38; repeatable? in which case, we need to think about other ways to determine something akin to truth. Dammit, if Joe Muslim and Polly Prebyterian and Sara Sceptic all come up with the same thing, we can at least knock religion out of the running as the sole backing for a particular theory. YES??? And if Sara and Polly have - er - differences, and they remain despite all care, what does that mean? I would doubt both of their findings. If we don't have some kind of testable &#38; repeatable, how would we chose?

I *refuse* to accept the edicts of religion in these cases. What are our choices, then? If we differ, how do we determine?

I mean, saying that the Goddess decides...well, it doesn't work for me, either. So then what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The problem for Western Science, in my view, is that we do not know whether our system of doing things is ultimately the ‘right’ way (or for some people whether there is ultimately going to be a ‘right’ way). Because in the future, somebody might come along and say what you count as evidence isn’t really evidence at all and what you think causes something, doesn’t cause it at all. And we’ll say ‘but its testable and repeatable’; and they’ll say ’so is our system’&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, but are both systems testable &amp; repeatable? in which case, we need to think about other ways to determine something akin to truth. Dammit, if Joe Muslim and Polly Prebyterian and Sara Sceptic all come up with the same thing, we can at least knock religion out of the running as the sole backing for a particular theory. YES??? And if Sara and Polly have - er - differences, and they remain despite all care, what does that mean? I would doubt both of their findings. If we don&#8217;t have some kind of testable &amp; repeatable, how would we chose?</p>
<p>I *refuse* to accept the edicts of religion in these cases. What are our choices, then? If we differ, how do we determine?</p>
<p>I mean, saying that the Goddess decides&#8230;well, it doesn&#8217;t work for me, either. So then what?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Feminist Avatar</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105896</link>
		<author>Feminist Avatar</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105896</guid>
		<description>They are using a different scientific system to our own. So what counts as evidence, and what doesn't, is different to what we count. So you are right that we could never believe this to be true, because we are using an entirely different model for looking at the world. 

A different example: a man who worked with and was associated with bears dies. The next day a bear walks into the town where he lived. This is unusual as bears are wary of people and towns. Western science would call this a coincidence. If you were Cree, you would say that the bear either was, or was sent by, the dead man. Western science would say 'where is the evidence' or 'where is the causal link'? The Cree would say 'the bear is the evidence'. The Cree are not wrong; they just count different things as evidence.

Similarly, in the past, they had a different understanding of how the body worked. They had evidence to prove it. We might not count it as evidence today, but they did. Based on the model they designed, they were able to predict things and those things were repeatable (testable). For example, their model explained why women menstuated and why they didn't when they were pregnant. It explained why men were generally physically bigger and stronger and it also explained why some women were stronger than some men. They could use their understanding of the body to make medicines and those medicines worked, just like ours do. Their model gave answers to all their questions (or answers to as many questions as our model can answer). They were not crazy or even illogical; they just used different evidence from us. (Also I don't think they ever measured physcial heat; heat was an element. They only had four elements: earth, air, water and fire. Today we still use elements as the basis of the world but we have a lot more of them, such as iron, mercury, radon etc).

The problem for Western Science, in my view, is that we do not know whether our system of doing things is ultimately the 'right' way (or for some people whether there is ultimately going to be a 'right' way). Because in the future, somebody might come along and say what you count as evidence isn't really evidence at all and what you think causes something, doesn't cause it at all. And we'll say 'but its testable and repeatable'; and they'll say 'so is our system'. 

We could actually critique evolution in this way. Western Science says we have archaeological evidence of people at different states of development. It seems that there is an obvious evolution between the different types of bodies found. Someone else (possibly a Christian but perhaps a future scientist) might come along and say actually these were just all very similar but entirely different species that have now died out. That they look similar and are differently evolved from each other is just a big coincidence. The bit where we link them together is ultimately a leap of faith that we call the scientific method. Western science thinks its the best way to do things, but there is no guarantee that it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They are using a different scientific system to our own. So what counts as evidence, and what doesn&#8217;t, is different to what we count. So you are right that we could never believe this to be true, because we are using an entirely different model for looking at the world. </p>
<p>A different example: a man who worked with and was associated with bears dies. The next day a bear walks into the town where he lived. This is unusual as bears are wary of people and towns. Western science would call this a coincidence. If you were Cree, you would say that the bear either was, or was sent by, the dead man. Western science would say &#8216;where is the evidence&#8217; or &#8216;where is the causal link&#8217;? The Cree would say &#8216;the bear is the evidence&#8217;. The Cree are not wrong; they just count different things as evidence.</p>
<p>Similarly, in the past, they had a different understanding of how the body worked. They had evidence to prove it. We might not count it as evidence today, but they did. Based on the model they designed, they were able to predict things and those things were repeatable (testable). For example, their model explained why women menstuated and why they didn&#8217;t when they were pregnant. It explained why men were generally physically bigger and stronger and it also explained why some women were stronger than some men. They could use their understanding of the body to make medicines and those medicines worked, just like ours do. Their model gave answers to all their questions (or answers to as many questions as our model can answer). They were not crazy or even illogical; they just used different evidence from us. (Also I don&#8217;t think they ever measured physcial heat; heat was an element. They only had four elements: earth, air, water and fire. Today we still use elements as the basis of the world but we have a lot more of them, such as iron, mercury, radon etc).</p>
<p>The problem for Western Science, in my view, is that we do not know whether our system of doing things is ultimately the &#8216;right&#8217; way (or for some people whether there is ultimately going to be a &#8216;right&#8217; way). Because in the future, somebody might come along and say what you count as evidence isn&#8217;t really evidence at all and what you think causes something, doesn&#8217;t cause it at all. And we&#8217;ll say &#8216;but its testable and repeatable&#8217;; and they&#8217;ll say &#8217;so is our system&#8217;. </p>
<p>We could actually critique evolution in this way. Western Science says we have archaeological evidence of people at different states of development. It seems that there is an obvious evolution between the different types of bodies found. Someone else (possibly a Christian but perhaps a future scientist) might come along and say actually these were just all very similar but entirely different species that have now died out. That they look similar and are differently evolved from each other is just a big coincidence. The bit where we link them together is ultimately a leap of faith that we call the scientific method. Western science thinks its the best way to do things, but there is no guarantee that it is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shell Goddamnit</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105889</link>
		<author>Shell Goddamnit</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105889</guid>
		<description>I don't understand how they used "the fact that women had less heat" to do anything at all...and how that fact could be "testable and provable" when, to the best of my knowledge, it is simply not true; not now, when we have these so very accurate measuring instruments; and certainly, not testable and provable 1500 years ago. Calling things fact upon the basis of little or no evidence doesn't make it science, testable, provable, or a perfectly good model with explanatory power, as far as I'm concerned. Please to explain?

Not, mind you, that I think modern "science" is infallible - by no means. Replicability, however, is a pretty good test; better than most of the other ways of telling fact from dream that I know of, anyway. I hate to toss it out and replace it with...well, what? There's not even a candidate, is there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand how they used &#8220;the fact that women had less heat&#8221; to do anything at all&#8230;and how that fact could be &#8220;testable and provable&#8221; when, to the best of my knowledge, it is simply not true; not now, when we have these so very accurate measuring instruments; and certainly, not testable and provable 1500 years ago. Calling things fact upon the basis of little or no evidence doesn&#8217;t make it science, testable, provable, or a perfectly good model with explanatory power, as far as I&#8217;m concerned. Please to explain?</p>
<p>Not, mind you, that I think modern &#8220;science&#8221; is infallible - by no means. Replicability, however, is a pretty good test; better than most of the other ways of telling fact from dream that I know of, anyway. I hate to toss it out and replace it with&#8230;well, what? There&#8217;s not even a candidate, is there?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Feminist Avatar</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105847</link>
		<author>Feminist Avatar</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105847</guid>
		<description>Ivieee: why? It's quite well-documented and agreed upon amongst historians (which is what I am). I can give you a reading list if you like? I am not saying that they thought men and women were equal. They used the fact that women had less heat to categorise them as weaker, more irrational and thus inferior to men. It was just a different model for understanding the body, but it nonetheless was an effective one that provided a good, testable and explanatory model for physiology. (I will give you that there is some controversy about when this shift happened, as some historians date it from the first challenges to this model in the seventeenth century, while others prefer to think about when it was commonly accepted by the general public which was during the 18th cent.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ivieee: why? It&#8217;s quite well-documented and agreed upon amongst historians (which is what I am). I can give you a reading list if you like? I am not saying that they thought men and women were equal. They used the fact that women had less heat to categorise them as weaker, more irrational and thus inferior to men. It was just a different model for understanding the body, but it nonetheless was an effective one that provided a good, testable and explanatory model for physiology. (I will give you that there is some controversy about when this shift happened, as some historians date it from the first challenges to this model in the seventeenth century, while others prefer to think about when it was commonly accepted by the general public which was during the 18th cent.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ivieee</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105814</link>
		<author>ivieee</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/02/18/florida-to-consider-actually-educating-public-school-students/#comment-105814</guid>
		<description>Feminist Avatar, I have to call "non-gender specific bovine effluvia" on:

"Until the eighteenth century, we believed that men and women were the same sex, differentiated only by a differing balance of heat within the body. This understanding of the body lasted for over 1500 years."

Sorry everybody if I'm engaging a "mythical creature that lives under bridges known to throw stones."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Feminist Avatar, I have to call &#8220;non-gender specific bovine effluvia&#8221; on:</p>
<p>&#8220;Until the eighteenth century, we believed that men and women were the same sex, differentiated only by a differing balance of heat within the body. This understanding of the body lasted for over 1500 years.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry everybody if I&#8217;m engaging a &#8220;mythical creature that lives under bridges known to throw stones.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
