<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.2.1" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Spinster aunt quotes self</title>
	<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1</generator>

	<item>
		<title>By: On Agency &#124; The 'Real' Princess Diaries</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-119119</link>
		<author>On Agency &#124; The 'Real' Princess Diaries</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 08:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-119119</guid>
		<description>[...] are incapable of fully exercising their agency because of the “oppression of the patriarchy.” Twisty is a shining example of this. As she sees it, women, especially young women, only think they are exercising their agency when [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] are incapable of fully exercising their agency because of the “oppression of the patriarchy.” Twisty is a shining example of this. As she sees it, women, especially young women, only think they are exercising their agency when [&#8230;]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mar Iguana</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-111118</link>
		<author>Mar Iguana</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-111118</guid>
		<description>"I value those who have assumed the “RadFem” banner these days (and hasn’t the meaning of that term changed in the last 40 years?)" ...Trix

Thank you and, no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I value those who have assumed the “RadFem” banner these days (and hasn’t the meaning of that term changed in the last 40 years?)&#8221; &#8230;Trix</p>
<p>Thank you and, no.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: warexx</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-111052</link>
		<author>warexx</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 04:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-111052</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Twisty, for considering my last post, and for all the other thoughtful comments here. I do understand that 'decriminalising' prostituted women might, on paper, appear an important task for feminists. But I would advise against this tact in the real world. Advocating for 'decriminalisation' diverts feminist resources from our actual aim: to have prostituted people recognised in law and social policy as victims of crime, and all others associated with prostitution as perpetrators.

In my experience, the first problem the anti-prostitution activist comes across is how to deal with groups advocating 'decriminalisation'. These groups will typically represent 'sole operator' prostituted women. On first meeting, the anti-prostitution activist will want to stand in solidarity with these groups, because they appear to have the interests of prostituted women at heart. However, after a while it will become apparent that these groups have a pro-prostitution agenda. I have never encountered a pro-decriminalisation group that lobbies for the criminalisation of pimps and buyers.

If anyone on this list has encountered such a group, I would like to hear from them. But my understanding of the radical feminist position is that we are working toward the criminalisation of the sex industry and the treatment of prostituted people as victims of crime qualifying for social services. I think if the radfem literature has advocated for the 'decriminalisation' of prostituted people this is a mistake that de-emphasises our concern for prostituted people as in need of social support and welfare.

'Decriminalisation' is an idea that leaves prostituted people still vulnerable to the predation of buyers and pimps, and almost certainly doesn't prompt the re-organisation of society's thinking and structures to accommodate prostituted people as victims of crime.

So, I would urge, please consider the idea of 'decriminalisation' as solely the domain of the pro-prostitution lobby, and instead argue for the simultaneous criminalisation of the sex industry and the provision of support for prostituted people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Twisty, for considering my last post, and for all the other thoughtful comments here. I do understand that &#8216;decriminalising&#8217; prostituted women might, on paper, appear an important task for feminists. But I would advise against this tact in the real world. Advocating for &#8216;decriminalisation&#8217; diverts feminist resources from our actual aim: to have prostituted people recognised in law and social policy as victims of crime, and all others associated with prostitution as perpetrators.</p>
<p>In my experience, the first problem the anti-prostitution activist comes across is how to deal with groups advocating &#8216;decriminalisation&#8217;. These groups will typically represent &#8217;sole operator&#8217; prostituted women. On first meeting, the anti-prostitution activist will want to stand in solidarity with these groups, because they appear to have the interests of prostituted women at heart. However, after a while it will become apparent that these groups have a pro-prostitution agenda. I have never encountered a pro-decriminalisation group that lobbies for the criminalisation of pimps and buyers.</p>
<p>If anyone on this list has encountered such a group, I would like to hear from them. But my understanding of the radical feminist position is that we are working toward the criminalisation of the sex industry and the treatment of prostituted people as victims of crime qualifying for social services. I think if the radfem literature has advocated for the &#8216;decriminalisation&#8217; of prostituted people this is a mistake that de-emphasises our concern for prostituted people as in need of social support and welfare.</p>
<p>&#8216;Decriminalisation&#8217; is an idea that leaves prostituted people still vulnerable to the predation of buyers and pimps, and almost certainly doesn&#8217;t prompt the re-organisation of society&#8217;s thinking and structures to accommodate prostituted people as victims of crime.</p>
<p>So, I would urge, please consider the idea of &#8216;decriminalisation&#8217; as solely the domain of the pro-prostitution lobby, and instead argue for the simultaneous criminalisation of the sex industry and the provision of support for prostituted people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: It&#8217;s all about me at I Blame The Patriarchy</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110957</link>
		<author>It&#8217;s all about me at I Blame The Patriarchy</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110957</guid>
		<description>[...] ________________________ *Holly goes on to characterize radical feminism as &#8220;[T]hrowing up your hands and screaming &#8216;we&#8217;re so oppressed we can&#8217;t even make decisions!&#8217;&#8221;, a perfect example of the spurious fun-feminist argument against radical feminism to which I alluded the other day. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] ________________________ *Holly goes on to characterize radical feminism as &#8220;[T]hrowing up your hands and screaming &#8216;we&#8217;re so oppressed we can&#8217;t even make decisions!&#8217;&#8221;, a perfect example of the spurious fun-feminist argument against radical feminism to which I alluded the other day. [&#8230;]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lara</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110885</link>
		<author>Lara</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 06:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110885</guid>
		<description>Trix, to say that you can "sell sex" like any other service is to ride on the assumption that women SERVICE men with sex/sexual favors and that men receive those services.  Isn't that gender dynamic exactly what feminism is against??  Oh yeah, I forgot, feminism is "anything" to anybody.  No work involved, no critical thinking, just take whatever it is the menz/society gives you and label it "empowering" and, tada! there you have it:  "feminism."  Feminism is the belief that women are human and should be treated and viewed thus.  Prostitution runs on the idea that women are sex objects ("willing" or not).  
Yeah I am using "scare quotes" because I don't think that's feminism.
Prostitution only started to exist when women were first enslaved.  It is inherently sexist, classist, racist, and totally dependent upon a capitalist system.  I am sick and tired of really important and intimate psychologically-based behaviors (like sex) being commodified and compared to other "services."  The personal is political.  Sex is political, thus inherently tied to gender dynamics in some way.  That's yet another basic tenet of feminism.  We do not live in a magical world where the patriarchal context suddenly floats away if we dream hard enough.
Native American women often go into prostitution to make ends meet, and you know what?  Prostitution has ALWAYS been based on sexual and racial oppression.  Always.  It simply would not exist without it.
First you acknowledged that women should legally have "no" as their default state in regards to sex, and yet you ignore how prostitution involves the woman "having sex" only because of the money, NOT because she actually WANTS to have sex.  Not because she is saying "yes" first to the sex itself.  Money negates consent.  
I will never compare my body to a commodity that can be sold.  I will never view sexual acts I engage in as "services."  And I will never view another woman or child that way.  To do so is to capitulate to the patriarchy.  And as feminists we cannot sit there and think we are "above" self-criticism and looking at the ways we fuck up and capitulate to the patriarchy.
IBTP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trix, to say that you can &#8220;sell sex&#8221; like any other service is to ride on the assumption that women SERVICE men with sex/sexual favors and that men receive those services.  Isn&#8217;t that gender dynamic exactly what feminism is against??  Oh yeah, I forgot, feminism is &#8220;anything&#8221; to anybody.  No work involved, no critical thinking, just take whatever it is the menz/society gives you and label it &#8220;empowering&#8221; and, tada! there you have it:  &#8220;feminism.&#8221;  Feminism is the belief that women are human and should be treated and viewed thus.  Prostitution runs on the idea that women are sex objects (&#8221;willing&#8221; or not).<br />
Yeah I am using &#8220;scare quotes&#8221; because I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s feminism.<br />
Prostitution only started to exist when women were first enslaved.  It is inherently sexist, classist, racist, and totally dependent upon a capitalist system.  I am sick and tired of really important and intimate psychologically-based behaviors (like sex) being commodified and compared to other &#8220;services.&#8221;  The personal is political.  Sex is political, thus inherently tied to gender dynamics in some way.  That&#8217;s yet another basic tenet of feminism.  We do not live in a magical world where the patriarchal context suddenly floats away if we dream hard enough.<br />
Native American women often go into prostitution to make ends meet, and you know what?  Prostitution has ALWAYS been based on sexual and racial oppression.  Always.  It simply would not exist without it.<br />
First you acknowledged that women should legally have &#8220;no&#8221; as their default state in regards to sex, and yet you ignore how prostitution involves the woman &#8220;having sex&#8221; only because of the money, NOT because she actually WANTS to have sex.  Not because she is saying &#8220;yes&#8221; first to the sex itself.  Money negates consent.<br />
I will never compare my body to a commodity that can be sold.  I will never view sexual acts I engage in as &#8220;services.&#8221;  And I will never view another woman or child that way.  To do so is to capitulate to the patriarchy.  And as feminists we cannot sit there and think we are &#8220;above&#8221; self-criticism and looking at the ways we fuck up and capitulate to the patriarchy.<br />
IBTP.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Trix</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110839</link>
		<author>Trix</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 00:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110839</guid>
		<description>I'm going to totally swim against the tide here.

I completely agree that everyone's default should be set to "no". I also agree that prostitution is problematic in the current patriarchal (yes, I can say the word) set-up.

However,
* I don't agree that all sex is necessarily about "pleasing [my partner] or "proving my worth". And I sympathise with those who do.
* Legal measures against prostitution are useless, and legalising it gives women much more protection... except with those discriminatory situations like you have in Nevada, where the State is the pimp. And the jailer.
* Naturally women are horribly exploited personally and professionally now, but I also believe that selling sexual services can be done like selling any other service - I know people who do, and who have no angst about it, and they are not oppressed drones. I totally agree this is not the majority experience - and I've not seen a formula where we get from prohibition to the acceptance of prostitution as a respected profession. Mainly because people of your feminist persuasion here don't want it (imagine if we ever did get post-patriarchy - why not?), and the more woo-woo kind deny the problems with it now.
* I do think denying some women's agency by saying that there is no such thing as a powerful, in-control prostitute is not helpful. There are too many counter-examples. Explaining how they can exist now might be an interesting exercise, and provide a model for future ways of getting that power away from the men.

Also, I'd like to say that the vitriol in the comments here about those of us who are not reflexively anti-prostitution (or anti-porn) is crap. I particularly resent the emphasis on "sex-positive" "feminists" (with scare-quotes). Unfortunately (for some here), there is no one true way of feminism. There never was. Being told I am not a "real" feminist is a nice way of shutting down dialogue. I value those who have assumed the "RadFem" banner these days (and hasn't the meaning of that term changed in the last 40 years?), because questioning sexuality is an important part of feminism. Funnily enough, it's what the "sex-pos" crowd do too. Also, characterising people like me as young silly twits (by implication) is ridiculous - I'm nearly 40, and my eyes are as open to oppression as much as anyone else's. Including from our own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to totally swim against the tide here.</p>
<p>I completely agree that everyone&#8217;s default should be set to &#8220;no&#8221;. I also agree that prostitution is problematic in the current patriarchal (yes, I can say the word) set-up.</p>
<p>However,<br />
* I don&#8217;t agree that all sex is necessarily about &#8220;pleasing [my partner] or &#8220;proving my worth&#8221;. And I sympathise with those who do.<br />
* Legal measures against prostitution are useless, and legalising it gives women much more protection&#8230; except with those discriminatory situations like you have in Nevada, where the State is the pimp. And the jailer.<br />
* Naturally women are horribly exploited personally and professionally now, but I also believe that selling sexual services can be done like selling any other service - I know people who do, and who have no angst about it, and they are not oppressed drones. I totally agree this is not the majority experience - and I&#8217;ve not seen a formula where we get from prohibition to the acceptance of prostitution as a respected profession. Mainly because people of your feminist persuasion here don&#8217;t want it (imagine if we ever did get post-patriarchy - why not?), and the more woo-woo kind deny the problems with it now.<br />
* I do think denying some women&#8217;s agency by saying that there is no such thing as a powerful, in-control prostitute is not helpful. There are too many counter-examples. Explaining how they can exist now might be an interesting exercise, and provide a model for future ways of getting that power away from the men.</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;d like to say that the vitriol in the comments here about those of us who are not reflexively anti-prostitution (or anti-porn) is crap. I particularly resent the emphasis on &#8220;sex-positive&#8221; &#8220;feminists&#8221; (with scare-quotes). Unfortunately (for some here), there is no one true way of feminism. There never was. Being told I am not a &#8220;real&#8221; feminist is a nice way of shutting down dialogue. I value those who have assumed the &#8220;RadFem&#8221; banner these days (and hasn&#8217;t the meaning of that term changed in the last 40 years?), because questioning sexuality is an important part of feminism. Funnily enough, it&#8217;s what the &#8220;sex-pos&#8221; crowd do too. Also, characterising people like me as young silly twits (by implication) is ridiculous - I&#8217;m nearly 40, and my eyes are as open to oppression as much as anyone else&#8217;s. Including from our own.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: E</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110734</link>
		<author>E</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110734</guid>
		<description>Two Swedish Parlamentarians discuss the Swedish model in an op-ed in International Herald Tribune the other day. 

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/19/opinion/edsonesson.php

I think the most important point here is: if you legalize prostitution, the only thing that happens is more men go to prostitutes, more women go into the sex industry and more pimps and crime syndicates start trading in human lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two Swedish Parlamentarians discuss the Swedish model in an op-ed in International Herald Tribune the other day. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/19/opinion/edsonesson.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/19/opinion/edsonesson.php</a></p>
<p>I think the most important point here is: if you legalize prostitution, the only thing that happens is more men go to prostitutes, more women go into the sex industry and more pimps and crime syndicates start trading in human lives.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joselle</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110573</link>
		<author>Joselle</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110573</guid>
		<description>Wow, my head is just spinning. Thanks for posting this. It's changing my life. I can especially relate to Fiona and Lisa's posts. Out of head and onto this screen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, my head is just spinning. Thanks for posting this. It&#8217;s changing my life. I can especially relate to Fiona and Lisa&#8217;s posts. Out of head and onto this screen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Twisty</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110539</link>
		<author>Twisty</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110539</guid>
		<description>I understand how the pro-prostitution agenda is served by it, but the reason decriminalization appears necessary to &lt;em&gt;this&lt;/em&gt; anti-prostitution feminist as an immediate band-aid is illustrated by your mugger analogy. If it were required by law to throw mugging victims in jail, it would be necessary to fix that law, right? Whatever other legal crap needs to happen to ameliorate the situation, it seems to me one of the first things to do is put an immediate stop to arresting the victims of institutionalized rape. If some happy hookers stand to benefit from this as well, well, so be it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand how the pro-prostitution agenda is served by it, but the reason decriminalization appears necessary to <em>this</em> anti-prostitution feminist as an immediate band-aid is illustrated by your mugger analogy. If it were required by law to throw mugging victims in jail, it would be necessary to fix that law, right? Whatever other legal crap needs to happen to ameliorate the situation, it seems to me one of the first things to do is put an immediate stop to arresting the victims of institutionalized rape. If some happy hookers stand to benefit from this as well, well, so be it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: warexx</title>
		<link>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110509</link>
		<author>warexx</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 08:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008/03/18/spinster-aunt-quotes-self/#comment-110509</guid>
		<description>Just in case there's any confusion about the meaning of the word 'decriminalisation' in relation to prostitution, I'll just add a couple of comments to this fantastic discussion.

The word 'decriminalisation' is solidly the invention of the pro-prostitution lobby. It disguises their aim to have the sex industry treated like an economic sector, and its customers treated like consumers (cf. NSW and New Zealand). The word is redundant in the anti-prostitution legislation of Sweden and South Korea. In these jurisdictions, prostituted people are treated as victims of crime, and are given access to a range of social services.

To 'decriminalise' the 'selling' of prostitution is a bogus concept that has no meaning outside the pro-prostitution agenda. It is a nonsense to 'decriminalise' prostituted people while the activities of johns and pimps are still legal. This is the equivalent of 'decriminalising' mugging victims while making mugging legal.

The idea of 'decriminalisation' is a decoy used by the pro-prostitution lobby to make people think they are concerned about the welfare of prostituted people. They pretend to care for these people by lobbying for the removal of laws that treat prostituted people like criminals, while opposing criminalisation of the parties that create prostituted people.

Feminists should not be distracted from the project to criminalise the sex industry and its customers--the call to 'decriminalise' prostituted people is just a red herring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case there&#8217;s any confusion about the meaning of the word &#8216;decriminalisation&#8217; in relation to prostitution, I&#8217;ll just add a couple of comments to this fantastic discussion.</p>
<p>The word &#8216;decriminalisation&#8217; is solidly the invention of the pro-prostitution lobby. It disguises their aim to have the sex industry treated like an economic sector, and its customers treated like consumers (cf. NSW and New Zealand). The word is redundant in the anti-prostitution legislation of Sweden and South Korea. In these jurisdictions, prostituted people are treated as victims of crime, and are given access to a range of social services.</p>
<p>To &#8216;decriminalise&#8217; the &#8217;selling&#8217; of prostitution is a bogus concept that has no meaning outside the pro-prostitution agenda. It is a nonsense to &#8216;decriminalise&#8217; prostituted people while the activities of johns and pimps are still legal. This is the equivalent of &#8216;decriminalising&#8217; mugging victims while making mugging legal.</p>
<p>The idea of &#8216;decriminalisation&#8217; is a decoy used by the pro-prostitution lobby to make people think they are concerned about the welfare of prostituted people. They pretend to care for these people by lobbying for the removal of laws that treat prostituted people like criminals, while opposing criminalisation of the parties that create prostituted people.</p>
<p>Feminists should not be distracted from the project to criminalise the sex industry and its customers&#8211;the call to &#8216;decriminalise&#8217; prostituted people is just a red herring.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
