I don’t know if you’re still reading, but you’re not alone. There is an unspoken rule in feminist circles that we are never to suggest that women’s masochism is as necessary to patriarchy as men’s sadism. To even insinuate that women could just choose to withdraw their energies from men is enough to send most feminists into a tizzy. They’d rather talk about ways to deceive/train/manipulate/beg/plead their boyfriends and husbands into mimicking respectful behavior.

And that’s great if what you’re after is a kinder gentler patriarchy, “benevolent” masters, so to speak, but female freedom does not require that we make deals with men or that we cajole and petition them to treat us better. In fact, if we get what we want by begging and pleading (or nagging or withholding sex or letting the house deteriorate into a pigsty to *show him*), we’re only perpetuating patriarchal notions of power and authority. We’re validating the patriarchal arrangment, in which men are in a position to “grant” us our freedom or humane treatment and demand gratitude for it.

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that there’s at least one other feminist on the planet who doesn’t see your advice that women actually look out for our *own* best interests, rather than waiting for men to give a damn (be it employers, husbands, governments, fathers, sons, etc.), as woman-blaming. I mean, heaven forbid we should make raising women’s standards and expectations to the point where women don’t feel as though they *need* (let alone *want*) men to do anything for them as a feminist priority. While the men may very well “be in the wrong,” I don’t see a problem with leaving men to be in the wrong all by themselves.

I certainly didn’t take your statements about leaving men as being applicable to women whose lives are in immediate danger should they choose to walk out, but rather a statement of the fact that for plenty of women, being able to eat the kinds of food they *like*, not need, wear the kinds of clothes they *like*, not need, and/or live in the kind of neighborhood they *like*, not need, all outweigh the dignity and feminist integrity to be found in seeking out non-heterosexual (dare I say non-mothering) living arrangements. Not every woman in a “bad” heterosexual relationship has a gun to her head, literally or figuratively. Many of them simply prefer bad heterosexual relationships to the mere thought of poverty, lesbianism, and/or solitude. And I agree with you that that deserves discussion.

Whatever your intentions were, you were attacking the integrity and self respect of anyone in a less thna perfect relationship. I never suggested you LEAVE here, only that you read up on the sorts of issues you’re talking about before coming to a SAFE FEMINIST PLACE and talking about how it’s women’s fault when we’re in relationships that involve abuse, laziness etc etc. You go on the defensive and accuse me of shutting you down when you have insulted me (not directly) in every post. I am part of a relationship that is less than ideal. I’m trying to get the courage together to leave. Just because I haven’t yet done so does not mean that I have no dignity or self-respect, nor does it mean his shortcomings are my fault. At the end of the day HE IS IN THE WRONG. Even if I stay, HE IS STILL THE ONE DOING THINGS WRONG.

To come here and talk about how we should just leave if things are bad, and bad relationships are the fault of the women because they should leave, THAT’S ATTACKING US. Stop talking about what power I have in a bad relationship. If you have been in this situation and gotten out of it, congratulations. I’m truly happy for you that you managed to get yourself out of such a situation. To those of us who haven’t however, we don’t need your blame.

And to people in wose situations than me? Ones that involve abuse or DV? They don’t need to be blamed and they are not at fault. There are thousands of things worknig against someone who leaves a relationship, and not that many things helping.

Don’t be surprised that women on a radfem blog take offense when you blame women.

Of course it’s my opinion, and of course it is not the be all and end all, that is a given, but your opinion is your opinion too! What makes your opinion any more valid than mine???!!!

“There’s no more on that. The men are at fault, the patriarchy is at fault.”

All I am trying to do is to have a discussion about a feminist issue, and here I am getting shut down by a fellow feminist - so I guess the free expression of opinion is not not on by you and that that I can just take my unintentionally heretic views elsewhere?

Jeebus H. Christ. I am seriously disappointed in the level of dogmatismm I’ve encountered in the few days since I’ve been posting. I am a feminist but I am also a free-thinker, and whilst I think the patriarchy is a malignant force in womens lives, to varying degrees, I could never be so dogmatic or one-dimensional as to the causes and solutions of womens problems. I thought the title of this blog was indicative of the focus of discussion, not a dogma never to be questioned at all.

If we women want the male population at large to question their attitudes towards women (and feminism), and to start to to think outside the current patriarchal paradigm (which many men dont’ even know they’re in- hence the self-entitlement, I think a level of give-and-take in discussion promotes the ability of participants in that discussion to see each others viewpoint. But if someone says, sorry I’m not listening to you, you’re WRONG, end of discussion, what affect do you think that has on the reciever of such an opinion -more likely than not they’re simply not going to listen to you anymore and be more resistent to listening to anyone talk about that particular topic in the future.

So the fact I can’t even try to debate a feminist issue here on a feminist forum -with good intentions i.e. not trolling -without getting shut down by a fellow feminist, well I have to tell you I’m disappointed, and I will take your suggestion and go elsewhere in an attempt to find a forum that actually encourages a robust debate about issues which affect us all.

Twisty - I admire your conviction, insight and word-smithery, but you were on the money the first time I blogged, but for the wrong reason. This blog is definately not for a free thinker/intellectual debater such as myself. I wish you fantastic success in your war against the patriarchy!!

questioning the integrity and self respect of those who aren’t able to move out for whatever reason sounds a lot like women blaming.

Go over to the forums and read a few posts about victim blaming and about how hard it is to leave a partner. Head on over to blogs like Feministe (or even this blog here) and read a few more posts and TRY to understand that your opinion is not the be all and end all. Just because you think a woman should be able to leave any situation that’s not 100% perfect, doesn’t mean anything in this world. It’s your opinion. It’s not fact. It’s women blaming. And for those women who can’t leave, THEY ARE NOT AT FAULT. that’s it. There’s no more on that. The men are at fault, the patriarchy is at fault.

But at the end of the day is it not better to be poor but free, and living a life of integrity and self respect? From the sounds of it you think so too, and for that I raise my glass to you.

Now he gets to live pretty much as he chooses, which includes not paying child support while at the same time blaming my lack of income on me… To whit, teaching the kids that not being able to make ends meet is not the result of having to live on a disability pension because of emotional trauma suffered in the cult he still frequents but because of financial mismanagement and selfishness.

So yeah, I have the power to leave, dress in op-shop clothes, live on anti-depressants and serve as a political football for every knuckle dragging cock culture spokes ork who needs to blame women for being ungrateful or unchristian.

When you’ve had it belted into you all your life that to act as anything other than a tarted up fembot doormat will invite violence and/or rape, walking out the door and starting a new life takes a bit more than simply deciding to teach him a lesson.

Really? Why? I would like your opinion as to why this is so. The only caveat to this ability of women to leave is if they have young kids, which, granted, can make it seem impossible to leave. But other than that I think its pretty valid. One thing to point out is that in Australia there is a pretty decent welfare net, and nobody really has to live on the streets -I’m not saying its the easy life (I’ve lived on welfare before by the way) but it’s doable.

this smacks of so much privilege I don’t even know where to start.

If you start going out with someone who has chauvinistic views, dump them quick!

If your boyfriend even threatens violence, leave him.

What I am talking about is not blaming women for patriarchal injustices, but I am advocating that they reclaim thier own power in their interpersonal relationships.

Of course, if you have a chauvinistic, misogynistic boss/colleage/brother/etc., then there’s not much you can do except quit/argue with them till your blue in the face or just remove them from your lives. And of course there are a multitude of situations where you will be affected by a prevailing boys club, chauvinistic societal expectations etc, and of course the patriarchy is to blame, but I think you have to know how to pick your battles… and in the area of personal relationships, women have most of the power, because they have the power to LEAVE, and Lauredhel and I were discussing domestic issues.

I am not blaming women, I am urging them to FIGHT back at the injustices in their relationships.