Jul 12 2008

Women’s essential receptacleness affirmed independently by separate jagoffs

Blamer Monika informs me that this ‘male feminist’ Kyle Payne dude links to I Blame the Patriarchy on his male feminist anti-rape blog.

Eeww. I need a hot shower.

Who is Kyle Payne?

An Iowa blogger who claimed to use activism and education to promote “a more just and life-affirming culture of sexuality” for women, especially those women who have been victims of sexual violence, has pleaded guilty to photographing and filming a college student’s breasts without her consent. [cite: Iowa Independent]

While she was unconscious.

Oh those zany dude “feminists” and their heartfelt concern for women’s “culture of sexuality.” Culture of sexuality my ass. They’re blind, bloodless, oozy invertebrates who live in soggy logs. Girls in alcoholic comas make the little fellers sick with excitement. Unconscious receptacle? Plenty of time to whip out the video equipment before writing an anti-rape blog post.

Sexploitation — on a semi-related note — is also irresistible to Oprah. It will gross you out to learn that a current (August 2008) issue of Oprah Magazine fell into my possession this afternoon. On the cover it says “YOU are an EXCELLENT WOMAN! How to finally let that message seep into your bones”. I opened the magazine and read the following letter to the sex advice columnist:

My husband is an affectionate man but only interested in sex if I dress up in lingerie and heels. I was a confident woman, but this is taking a toll on my self-esteem. He says he can’t help it — he’s visually stimulated. Any advice? — Joy in Utah

Twisty’s advice to Joy in Utah: “Great Scott, you excellent woman. Dump the misogynist porn addict with all speed.”

Oprah’s sex advice columnist, a chump named Cindy Chupak, appears to believe that being an Excellent Woman means defining your sexual self exclusively in terms of your service to male fantasy. She tells Joy in Utah to suck it up. “The man wants his sexy wife in some sexy clothes. Is that too much to ask?” Chupak counsels poor pornified Joy in Utah to be “thrilled” that her exploiter only wants lingerie and heels. Having to wear the minor sexbot drag he requires is apparently way less “offensive” than dating a “plushophile” or someone who is “sexually aroused by insects crawling on parts of the body.” Joy in Utah, concludes old Cindy (after titillating her readers with a few more examples of dudely kinkiness from Wikipedia’s perv list), should “work with [the pornulating asshole’s] limitations and celebrate her power to turn him on.”

When porn apologists “celebrate” women’s “power,” it’s like saying “war is love” or “Cool Whip is real.” The power to get men off. Yo, quaver before its terrible compulsory awesomeness.

Jesus Huckleberry Christ.


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  1. Amy

    I wouldn’t mind the “power” bullshit if at least a semi-rational explanation was offered as to why in heaven’s name said “power” should appeal to me. I’m not saying I’d be enthusiastic about a, say, orgasm-for-cheaper-gasoline trade-off POWER, but at least that makes sense on a consumerist level. This other crap I can’t even process.

  2. Orange

    I think Joy in Utah should ask her husband to try wearing lingerie and heels himself. Maybe he could also take a pole dancing class.

    I hesitate to share this terrible news, Twisty, but Cool Whip is now available in a spray can as if it were actual whipped cream. A girl in the checkout line behind me was reading the ingredients to her mom: “Hydrogenated vegetable oil…high-fructose corn syrup…” I dunno. Wouldn’t it make more sense to just spray some Pam on your dessert?

  3. keres

    Hey, where’s the photo of Stanley?

    This reminds me in a way of a case many years ago where a man who molested a young girl (a 6yo, I think) was given leniency by the judge because he viewed the girls manner as “exceptionally provocative”. See how much “power” mere girl children can exert over grown men? It’s truly frightening (to men, anyway).

    What this boils down to is that the onus/blame for men’s desire, or lack thereof, falls on women. With the usual “dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t” outcomes.

  4. keres

    Orange wrote: Cool Whip is now available in a spray can as if it were actual whipped cream.

    Are you saying that the non-Cool Whip stuff in a spray can is “actual whipped cream”? This is news to me (but then I don’t get out much – and I have a mixer with which to make real whipped cream, which tastes smashingly on a home-made chocolate mousse).

  5. slade

    Do you think Karma might strike Joy’s husband blind one of these days so his ‘visual stimulation’ won’t work?

  6. Pinko Punko

    I think Joy in Utah should have the man slap himself with a flounder, or maybe roll around in paste so she can paper machier his ass and then piñata time.

    J.H.C. on a triscuit is how I learned it.

  7. Maren

    See, Joy’s “advice” is right along the lines of Dan Savage’s “good, giving and game” idea — do whatever your partner’s into, within reason, and they’ll do the same for you — but I am quite certain that Dan would tell the woman a) SHE gets to ask for stuff (bring on the strap-ons!), and b) if that’s the only way her man can get off, and it’s not fun for her, it’s time for some old-fashioned compromise. And none of that BS about celebrating her power to turn on men, gag. If you read Dan’s column often enough, you’d certainly be happier to come across a vanilla lingerie fetishist than someone into wearing diapers, but no matter what the kink is, it’s ridiculous to make it sound like it’s about HER, when it’s clearly about his prefab Playmate sexual preferences (which might be legit and handwired for him, but have nothing to do with whether the poor woman looks good in a teddy).

  8. Lemur

    I always used to say JHC on a pogo stick. Hmm. Regional variations maybe? I’ve taken to saying “Ceiling H Cat!” I’ve been spending way too much time on the Inter-Web maybe. It makes, however, as much sense to me as the other.
    @ Pinko: Your suggestions are fabulous! Am I a bad person for saying I would wanna see a flounder-slapped, papier-mache’d husband on YouTube? I mean I can’t help it- I’m visually stimulated too!
    Also, if she were dating a “plushophile”, would Cindy still have suggested Joy “suck it up”, and then go on to say something stunning like “be glad you aren’t with a necrophiliac”?
    If my atractiveness to a man was predicated on whether or not I wore high heels, I’d use my “feminine power” to dump his ass.
    And as usual, IBTP.

  9. Aerik

    When porn apologists “celebrate” women’s “power,” it’s like saying “war is love” or “Cool Whip is real.”

    Quote of the frackin weekend! Right on the money.

  10. Citizen Jane

    Let me guess. Chupak is one of those who tell me that feminism is unnecessary because women could just go around topless and get everything they wanted from men.

  11. slythwolf

    The power to turn men on? Seriously? Leaving aside the whole question of why exactly anyone but the man in question should care if he gets a boner or not, can this really be termed “power” if we don’t also have the ability to choose when to “use” it, whom to “use” it on and when to turn it off?

    In any case Oprah’s sex columnist is a fucking rape apologist. “My husband wants me to do something in bed that I’m not comfortable with, what should I do?” “Ignore your instincts! Do what he wants! It’s all about him, his pleasure, his whims!”

  12. mikeb302000

    I couldn’t get through on those links, but I’ve been reading about that Kyle Payne character on some other blogs. At best he sounds like a very conflicted individual, at worst, well I wouldn’t try to top you Twisty.

    “They’re blind, bloodless, oozy invertebrates who live in soggy logs.”

  13. Bridget

    Ah yes, Oprah – it figures she would have such an excellent advice columnist. I read somewhere that Oprah was considered “one of America’s spiritual leaders” and nearly lost my lunch …

    And Joy’s husband. What a prize. She should ask him to dress up in a plastic dry cleaning bag. Then leave him there.

  14. Helen

    mikeb302000, no way in hell is the boy confused. He knew all along what he was doing was evil. So does everyone else. No confusion there.

  15. Dr. Helmet Breath

    Goddamnit, I am so sick of the culture of sexuality and its twin obligations, sexual “exploration” and “adventurousness”. If we lived in a society that was remotely feminist, those things could be good; but we don’t, and my beef is that the sexual “adventurousness” is strictly the responsibility of women (“adventurous” of course being a descriptive term for “how willing you are to make yourself look like a fucking idiot in service of the male libido.) A woman might refuse to do something she finds painful and unappealing (like anal sex) and she’s a prude, while dudes the world over have essentially the same simple sexual M.O.—achieve boner and pump. No anal, no toys, no cheesy get-ups, no phony moaning and dirty dialogue. Most of them won’t even go down on you (for more than 3 seconds, anyway.) Meanwhile, women are expected to perform this comical modern day sexual Kabuki; we have to take more time getting ready for sex than we do getting ready for a fancy dinner (what happened to the idea of sex being a NATURAL practice and not some elaborate X-rated Merchant Ivory production?) High heels, makeup, styled hair, cheesy lingerie, posing for a variety of uncomfortable porno positions, penetration (in ALL orifices, lest you be considered some prudish schoolmarm by our locker room culture), insults, abuse, “money shots” (and I love how men act like their own bodily fluid is so disgusting yet they expect the lowly, inferior woman to devour it like manna from heaven— a perfect illustration of the pornified male necessity for degradation to achieve satisfaction.) I hope I’m not offending anyone here by being disgusting, and I know I’m stating the obvious, but… I’m just so fucking sick of it all.

    I’m sorry to rant. What I should’ve just said is, Twisty, you are the motherfucking TRUTH.

  16. panic

    An Iowa blogger who claimed to use activism and education to promote “a more just and life-affirming culture of sexuality” for women
    Translation: “If more girls were willing to succumb to raunch culture, I just might have a chance at losing my virginity one of these days. Y’know, probabilities and whatnot.”

    It’s always the men who can’t get a (conscious) girl consensually naked, that want our sexuality to be more “free.”

    Dear “liberated” males: we don’t fall for it, and you’re hilarious.

  17. PhysioProf

    That Payne dude is a sick fuck. Apparently, he claims that he “never gets angry”, which is scary sick shit in itself:


    Anyone who claims he never gets angry is either lying, suppressing, or incapable of properly characterizing his own emotions. And regardless of which is the case, he is someone to stay the fuck away from.

  18. xochitl

    I think Oprah’s columnist is on to something. I have the power to turn my husband on! (Except, he only gets turned on when I do what he says.) I have the power to make my honkey boss like me! (Except, he only likes me when I kiss his ass and do whatever he says and act like the subservient little Chicana.)

  19. xochitl

    Lemur said: “Also, if she were dating a ‘plushophile’, would Cindy still have suggested Joy ‘suck it up’, and then go on to say something stunning like ‘be glad you aren’t with a necrophiliac’?”


    I would suggest that Joy’s husband suck it up and be glad that Joy hasn’t castrated him.

  20. tinfoil hattie, posting as The 7th Foley Girl

    Wow, Dr. Helmet Breath. My neck aches from all the nodding I did while reading your rant. I bow to your incisive blaming.

    And often, the truth is “disgusting.”

    Your rant is art.

  21. Satsuma

    When are women going to see wolves in sheep’s clothing with these guys?

    I never met a man who was passionately against pornography, prostitution and sexist images of women. Men feel sexually entitled to women 24-hours a day. So you should have a double dose of suspicion anytime you run into blogs like the Iowa guy mentioned above.

    Remember, men don’t understand feminism, have no intention of ‘granting” women human rights, and don’t even believe that women are intelligent human beings. They feel perfectly free to degrade women on national radio shows, and what’s weird is that a lot of women call up to agree with these hosts.

    Men are pro-porn, pro-prostitution all the time — either as public declarations or they engage in these activities in secret — think Spitzer and company.

    As I said before, when women cut off the supply — no nude photos, etc., no agreeing with woman hating radio shows etc., we’ll really mean business. But until that time comes, I just assume all men are guilty all the time, until proven innocent of these women degrading acts and ideas.

    No surprise there women!

  22. Rachel

    If she should be celebrating the “power” to turn her husband on by succumbing to his pornified fantasies, then perhaps he should celebrate the power to make her happy by not being such an asshole. Just saying.

  23. TP

    Reading all this Grade A blaming does my lonely heart good, living in a world gone mad by catering to the capricious fancies of the pornsick male libido.

    I am very much against pornography and have come a very very long way from a normal full-scale addiction to just trying to get the residue out of my head, which is the hardest and saddest part of all. And still I could never, as Satsuma says so well, be as passionately against pornography as a woman. So what might seem like an over-the-top statement to people not reading this blog is seen as truth by me and any real feminist who refuses to identify as a man. I’m still stuck in a culture of manliness, but I reject it anyway, as best I can.

    Men are not aroused by women – by which I mean human beings of the female gender, the essential person, separate from her cultural trappings. They are aroused by the idea of a struggle they can win by fucking the loser of the struggle. (Thanks, Andrea Dworkin!) All the cultural trappings that identify the person to be fucked in the contest of wills between these two humans are what we think of as male and female identities. All this porn shit, all the required female costuming and posturing, all the male lust to dominate and oppress revolve around this.

    Of course this husband can’t get aroused without this costuming. He needs to pretend that it isn’t this woman he loves, but this object he can dominate.

  24. mir

    In efforts to promote in my current and future bed partners the healthy sense of sexay empowerfulness inherent in pleasing me me me me me, starting today I am requiring that they promptly return 27% of all their private earnings to their employers.

  25. Jezebella

    Mikey, I have to wonder how you can translate “anti-porn activist who pleads guilty to taping himself sexually assaulting a woman” into merely “conflicted.” Conflicted? You have got to be fraking kidding me. He’s a sex offender. His “feelings” about it are irrelevant. What the hell is wrong with the male brain?

  26. PhysioProf

    I would never call myself a “feminist”, because it’s not my call whether I am or not. It’s women’s call. I try not to be a fucking misogynist asshole and do what I can to reduce gender inequity in my professional and personal life, which includes trying to call out other men on misogynist shit.

    Making a big melodramatic display of tagging oneself with the “feminist” label seems like pretty transparent male cookie-seeking. (Of course, maybe tagging myself with the “I don’t call myself a feminist” label is just more subtle cookie-seeking!)

  27. thebewilderness

    The menz, they call themselves many good things, and they call other menz many bad things.
    I see no reason to take the word of people who have been conditioned from birth to hate us.

  28. Jen

    Oh Kyle Payne. Thank you for reaffirming my radical notions that men cannot be feminists. Truly, you are a great example of your kind. While other feminists would like to open their collective arms (and sometimes legs) to the righteous male self-proclaimed feminist, I ask, “okay, so what do you think you are getting out of this?” In Kyle’s case, it appears he got some fantabulous rape. Not to go too much off-topic, but why is that male feminists are so annoying? Their constant need for approval (check out Kyle’s “info” page, in which he details his beloved accomplishments exhaustively) and avowed “good guyness” is grating. Whether or not you agree with it, you still profit from privelege. You don’t get kudos for recognizing it. A woman has to be perfect in every way to get the same readership and acclaim that a man who does nothing more than the bare minimum of decency gets by merit of his lauded penis and “open-mind”. Kyle is hardly anything special, he’s just another douchebag using his penis to try to usurp power from people who really need it.

    Also, what the fuck is up with “sex is power” bullshit? My guess is that if the columnist had gotten a letter about a poor man that doesn’t shave his balls for his pube-hatin’ wife, that bitch would have gotten the hate stick. Isn’t it sad that the radical notion of wanting to have sex with your husband because you want him, instead of resigning to sex with your husband because he wants you (but only if you sex it up you ugly slut, you), is so alien? Know what’s powerful? Giving men exactly what they want. Uh huh. That’s the patriarchy for you.

  29. slythwolf

    Men are not aroused by women – by which I mean human beings of the female gender, the essential person, separate from her cultural trappings. They are aroused by the idea of a struggle they can win by fucking the loser of the struggle. (Thanks, Andrea Dworkin!) All the cultural trappings that identify the person to be fucked in the contest of wills between these two humans are what we think of as male and female identities. All this porn shit, all the required female costuming and posturing, all the male lust to dominate and oppress revolve around this.

    Thank you for this, TP, it crystallized a few things in my head that I got, but couldn’t have verbally explained.

  30. Chai Latte

    This depresses me to no end. Sometimes I really despair of humanity. And this advice is completely idiotic.

    My answer to the husband? “I’ll wear lingerie and heels only if you do.” THAT will solve the argument pretty damn quick. Especially if she drags out the camera.

  31. Chai Latte

    Oh yeah…

    And turning on guys is not that hard. (Ha, I said *hard*.) Seriously, it’s like flipping a goddamn lightswitch.

    And I feel for the poor woman in this case. My ex-Nigel did something similar to me while I was asleep. In a fit if guilt later on, he confessed it to me–I’d never have known otherwise. Needless to say, he’s now my ex-Nigel and I’ve found a new one actually worthy of my trust.

  32. TwissB

    “‘Oh those zany dude “feminists” and their heartfelt concern for women’s “culture of sexuality.”'”

    Why you must be referring to the old granddaddy of them all, the sainted Phil Donahue who tried ever so hard to help sexually shy and inhibited Mrs. America get comfortable with her male-defined sexuality, even bringing in Hugh Hefner to calm her fears. And what thanks did he get for his years of effort? He lost his ratings war to that pushy Oprah Winfrey who proceeded to steal his audience and his schtick – helping Ms. America to feel comfy with her sexuality. It never ends. IBTP.

  33. monika

    Conflicted, my ass. This was a premeditated decision to assault a woman. By a man who counselled survivors of sexual violence.

    He not only violated the student he assaulted, but any and every survivor of sexual violence he “supported”.

    The pain he has inflicted upon women is devastating.

    And this, unsurprisingly, is absent in all of the anti and non-feminist accounts of the assault.


  34. australian dave

    Well, I’m male, and while I don’t really care whether I’m labelled feminist, pro-feminist, a feminist sympathiser, or just a guy who tries not to be a misogynist douchebag, my momma taught me that women are people and you treat them like people, not a collection of disembodied parts there for male pleasure. And that you don’t act that way so people will congratulate you on your progressive thinking, you act that way because you want to be a decent human being.

    I’m all for “a more just and life-affirming culture of sexuality”, as the current mainstream culture of sexuality does seem to largely consist of misogyny, patriarchal privilege, and godbaggery, but treating women like people not body parts displayed for their pleasure seems to be the rather fundamental point he somehow missed along the way. I think the link to Fetch me my axe has the truth of it — some people (skewing heavily but not exclusively towards men) just aren’t really capable of treating other people like people instead of pieces in their creepy solipsist game, and such creeps are a lamentable but seemingly inescapable part of humanity.

    Meanwhile, I think a culture of sexuality actually based on a starting point of treating women like people not sex dolls would be pretty different to either Paynes non-consensual spying and exploitation of petty authority, or that crap from Oprah. Seriously, if I found it hard to be aroused by my wife without dressing her up like a sex doll, I’d think there was something seriously wrong with me, and I’d be considering some sort of professional help.

  35. RebelRebel

    Yes, the advice columnist’s answer was anti-feminist, but am I alone in wanting to reserve the word “rape” (as in “fucking rape apologist”) for cases like Mr. Payne?

    I know the “keep porning it up for your husband” response might, in some ways, be more galling because it’s more accepted by society at large, but let’s keep some perspective.

  36. Mikeb302000

    Dear Jezebella, You’re absolutely right. This guy sounds like a total scumbag. As much as I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and as much as I like to take internet reporting with a grain of salt, “conflicted” is too generous for him.
    But, generally speaking, don’t you think some men are conflicted? I mean, even guys that sometimes act badly, may want to do better and may actually be progressing in that effort, don’t you think?

  37. Twisty

    Mike302000, the position of this blog on the question of men’s inner “conflict” is this: it is irrelevant.

    Once again, to any who may have missed it: all men, whether they intend to or not, exercise and benefit from male privilege 24/7. This is experienced by women as misogyny, period.

    For more information on posting comments that ask “what about the men?”, please read the FAQ.

  38. Twisty

    RebelRebel:”Yes, the advice columnist’s answer was anti-feminist, but am I alone in wanting to reserve the word “rape” (as in “fucking rape apologist”) for cases like Mr. Payne?

    I know the “keep porning it up for your husband” response might, in some ways, be more galling because it’s more accepted by society at large, but let’s keep some perspective.”

    I don’t make much of a conceptual distinction between porn and rape, RR. Pornography is the graphic representation of rape, and Nigels who claim that they are “visually stimulated” by lingerie and heels are really only attempting to live the rapist life without any of the tiresome consequences. That’s the perspective I’d like everyone to consider.

  39. RebelRebel

    I get it. Believe me, I get it. But I guess I’m still a little gun-shy about invoking the totemic power of the “r” word for anything other than sex without consent (leaving aside, for the moment, any arguments about just how much consent is possible in a patriarchal society).

    Or maybe I just don’t want a bunch of women showing up to rape survivors’ meetings saying, “I wore lingerie and heels for my husband, even though deep down I really didn’t want to.”

    In the end, does anti-feminist sex-related always equal rape?

    Sorry if I’ve wandered a little OT, and I’m going to be really embarrassed if there’s a FAQ entry covering this.

  40. RebelRebel

    anti-feminist *plus* sex-related

  41. Silence

    Visual stimulation, my ass.

    If men can’t get turned on without visual stimulation, what about the blind? Are we supposed to assume that they’re incapable of getting it up? Think on that for half a second and the whole ‘men are visually stimulated’ bullshit knowledge falls on its ass. Blind men screw.

    Anecdote — I once went to an amusement park with a blind guy — blind from birth. One of the first things he asked me was if I ever wandered around my house without any clothes on.

    Now since he couldn’t see me and didn’t know whether I was a blond goddess slut divine in a thong or a dumpy, cross-eyed, spotty geek, I am forced to conclude that he was desirous of this knowledge because he got an erotic thrill out of imagining me in a vulnerable situation. It wasn’t about personality, and it sure as hell wasn’t about visual stimulation. It was about power. He was placing me in some perverted little fantasy that existed in my own mind.

    Every day we endure these little degradations. Every time some man treats one of us as his personal pleasure doll rather than a human being, it’s a form of rape. They don’t need to touch us. They don’t even need to look at us.

    Visual pornography as rape? I’m down with that. How about phone sex? How about all those creeps who call up women to ‘talk dirty’ to them just so they can successfully jerk themselves off? Don’t tell me they’re not imagining they’re doing all kind of perverted stuff to the unwilling body on the other end of the line. It’s all rape. And as long as sex is about domination, 99% of what goes on in bedrooms (and other places) across the world is going to be rape.

  42. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Would it surprise you to learn that Cindy Chupack used to write for HBO’s “Sex & the City”? Gah. I can’t speak for anyone else, but she certainly is not a person I’d turn to for sex advice.

  43. KarenElhyam

    Just wanted to say that if it weren’t for this blog, I think I would lose my mind. Seeing patriarchy everywhere, and feeling crazy and alone for doing so, is hard on a woman. This site, as depressing as it can be, keeps my head above water.

    So thanks, everybody!

    As for the post…”sex” “advice” and “column” are three words that, in any combination, scream “High Holy Advocate for Teh Dudez and their Winkies” so I do my best to avoid them, in general.

  44. Kate

    Twisty, I’m glad I am that you’re back!

  45. mikeb302000

    Sorry, Twisty. I’ll reread the FAQ and be very careful what I write. Thanks for what you said.

  46. Flores

    Dr. Helmet Breath’s rant tells how it is. That’s what supposedly feminist men should be trying to change: abusive and unequal male sexual behavior. This connects naturally with opposing sexual violence, pornography, and so on. But how many men do you see speaking out against oppressive bedroom practices?

  47. RebelRebel

    I agree that there’s not much of a conceptual difference between porn and rape, but I do think there’s an important difference of degree between sexual coercion through force or the threat of force (or assaulting the unconcious or incapacitated) and the indirect sexual coercion propagated by porn and the million other ways the patriarchy manifests itself.

    I understand the impulse to acknowledge the seriousness of that indirect coercion by calling it rape, but I think calling 99% of sex rape (and what’s the other 1%) does more to deny the experience of victims of violence than it does to illuminate the nefarious effects of the patriarchy.

  48. Satsuma

    I have never ever heard a man say that he would speak out against pornography, sexual exploitation or prostitution to other men.

    Men feel entitled to use women sexually in any way they can.
    I see no evidence of change here.

  49. Lar

    Dr. Helmet Breath, thank you. Seriously, you’ve summed up in that paragraph what I’ve wanted to scream from the roof top since I was a kid.

    I think porn IS rape. My father unabashedly watched porn in front of me and my sister since I was 3 years old (which, if it isn’t illegal, should be). When I was 20 I went to a therapist (female therapist) to discuss my “problems” as a result of this experience. She gave me the same bullshit that collumnist gave. That I was being an unrealistic prude being disgusted by my father and by the other men I’d dated who needed as they call it “visual stimuli.” That I should just get over it. So I did what any other self-respecting blamer would do – I fired my shrink and dumped my ass hole boyfriend.

    I do feel violated by porn. It destroyed my childhood and it’s destroyed many aspects of my adult life. And it is rape because so many other women have been violated in one way or another by it. Not to mention the countless “porn stars” that have literally, physically been raped on camera for the enjoyment of thousands and thousands of visually stimulated jack asses.


  50. PhysioProf

    Not to go too much off-topic, but why is that male feminists are so annoying?

    Because they’re mostly full of shit. I turned some of my comments to this thread into a post at Feministe yesterday (I’m guest blogging there for two weeks), and a whole bunch of whiny-ass self-identified male feminists got all pissed off because I told them to shut the fuck up and worry about not being misogynist douchemonkeys instead of whether they are part of the feminist movement.


  51. slythwolf

    RebelRebel, I think you may have missed my point. I didn’t say the man asking his wife to put on pornified femininity wear was raping her. I said the columnist is a rape apologist, by which I meant that her advocation of women’s capitulation to men’s sexual whims with no thought to their (women’s) own wishes is rape apology. It paints sex as a duty women undertake to make men happy. When sex is something men enjoy and women barely tolerate, that’s rape.

  52. slythwolf

    Also, I don’t think force or the threat of force always has to come into play in rape. I have said elsewhere that, for example, “I’ll break up with you if you won’t have sex with me” is rape. So is “you would if you loved me”.

  53. Bushfire

    “I understand the impulse to acknowledge the seriousness of that indirect coercion by calling it rape, but I think calling 99% of sex rape (and what’s the other 1%) does more to deny the experience of victims of violence than it does to illuminate the nefarious effects of the patriarchy.”

    If you’re uncomfortable calling quasi-rape “rape”, may I suggest the word “violate” instead? Interestingly, the French word for rape is “violer”, which anyone can tell is the same word as violate. They’re pretty much the same thing, but “rape” has taken on a sort of legal/political connotation while “violate” has not.

    PhysioProf, you mysteriously attracted a lot of weird commenters on that Feministe post.

  54. RebelRebel

    “When sex is something men enjoy and women barely tolerate, that’s rape.”

    ‘I have said elsewhere that, for example, “I’ll break up with you if you won’t have sex with me” is rape. So is “you would if you loved me”.’

    I respectfully disagree. I guess what we’re all talking about here are various levels of coercive sex, from the mild, “get fucked or face social sanction at the hands of the patriarchy,” to the medium, “get fucked or get dumped by someone you love,” to the extreme, “get fucked or die” which is right up there with having no choice at all (due to being overpowered and/or incapacitated). The problem is (as has been stated many times around here) that all sex in a patriarchal system has some level of coercion, and if you start using the word “rape” for any sex that has a coercive element, the word is going to become meaningless fast.

    Now if we want to use “rape” to mean all forms of sex that involve coercion (i.e. “you would if you loved me”), that’s fine. But in that case we need to come up with a new, atom bomb of a word for when someone puts a knife to your throat and drags you into an alley.

    OTOH, Bushfire, I think I can get on board with using “violate.”

  55. Silence

    First of all rape is not the ‘atom bomb’ of a word it should be. I’ve heard men use it to describe, say, being beaten a football game, such as: “Man, that team totally raped us.” I’m sure other people here have heard it used similarly. It’s come to describe any loss in win/lose situation, no matter how banal the circumstances. Personally, I’d like to reclaim it to mean, strictly, ‘the violation of one person by another.’

    Second, the woman dragged screaming into an alley with a knife doesn’t matter in the context of patriarchy. She was probably walking out late at night and deserved it. Or was walking through an unsafe neighborhood and deserved it. Or was wearing revealing clothes and deserved it. Or was known to be a prude and deserved it. Or was walking alone and deserved it. Or she’s lying about it and it never happened at all. Rape has become so trivialized in today’s society that it doesn’t happen even when it happens. And that’s because rape is something that happens to women far more often than it does to men.

    Coercive sexual behavior is rape. You’re forcing someone to do something against their will, and the threat of losing someone’s affection or perhaps the roof over your head is every much a threat as that proverbial knife to the throat. Let’s call a spade a spade.

  56. Bushfire

    RebelRebel, I think the reasons that feminists refer to coercive sex as rape is because we are pointing out that coercion is bad and should not be used to get sex. Perhaps snatching someone in an alley and raping them at gunpoint is worse, but the fact is, if you call that rape and then do not refer to date rape or marital rape as rape, then it gives men permission to do it. The idea that its not really that bad to coerce someone verbally/emotionally is exactly what keeps men raping. Radical feminists (and others) would like women to be in an assumed state of non-consent until they actually do give consent, hence, the idea of saying “you don’t really love me” or “come on, I’m gonna get blue balls” is rape. Men think they can try try try to wear a woman down who doesn’t really want to, and they are convinced this is not rape. That’s why anti-feminists think that feminists are making up sexual assault statistics. They say “it couldn’t be one in four people, wtf”. That’s because they think coercing an uninterested female until she wears down and says “yes” just to get it over with is not rape. Women will not be equal until this is seen as a violation, and if we shy down and try to play “nice” and say “well, it’s not really that bad, we shouldn’t really call it rape” then we’re basically given them permission. This is how society condones rape. (Well, one of many ways).

    I would suggest that you use the word “violate” if you’re more comfortable with it, but I would like to add that when I started thinking of wearing-woman-down-until-she-says-yes as rape, I also started thinking of myself as a whole person instead of a receptable for men’s desires. I would highly recommend it.

  57. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    I think men are deliberately obtuse on this point because they don’t want to believe they’re doing anything wrong by being sexually coercive. So we hear lots of hemming and hawing about how calling this behavior rape somehow dilutes its meaning. This is a load of hooey.

  58. Lara

    “The problem is (as has been stated many times around here) that all sex in a patriarchal system has some level of coercion, and if you start using the word “rape” for any sex that has a coercive element, the word is going to become meaningless fast.”

    You imply that that element of coercion in sex is “meaningless”, RebelRebel.
    Let that marinade a bit…

    Stop thinking that rape is only a situation in which a man physically forces a woman to have vaginal/anal/oral sex with him. Rape is all about manipulation and power. All the details of things being physically used to rape, methods used to rape, places in which rape occurs, are so important to men: that way, men can marginalize other men as “crazy” and “real rapists” while they are let off from being held accountable for their abuse of women. But to feminists, especially radical feminists, these details are unimportant. The important thing, the point is, that rape is about sexual power and coercion. And if most sex, if not all, between men and women involves this, and that it is thus rape, then that makes it MORE important and relevant, NOT meaningless.

  59. RebelRebel

    Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses; you’ve given me a lot to think about. I’m not sure if I’m ready to join in with the whole “we have to call it rape or men will think it’s okay to do it” crowd, but as I look back at it, my argument does seem a little silly and semantic. Yes, I do still think that some types of sexual coercion are much worse than others, but arguing about it, or defining special words or terms for the different levels, is a bit like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    It’s all bad. And getting into a “my pain is worse than your pain” argument is, at best, counter-productive.

  60. Fred

    You can’t identify as a man and call yourself a feminist. You can be a feminist-friendly human with male parts buteven then, you’ll never really know.

  61. Jezebella

    As soon as there are negative consequences for saying no, it’s coercion.

    As soon as the situation is “get fucked or […]” for a woman, it’s a version of rape.

  62. Satsuma

    What would happen if men were never allowed to coerce anything ever with women! That anytime this came into play, women would walk out of the room immediately?

    Men are always trying to “get” women to do awful things– from oral sex, to wearing sexy clothes. In fact, I’ve had men ask me really weird questions, and when I answer, they can never understand what I’m talking about. A man will ask me “what type” of woman I like, and I always answer, “I love smart and intelligent women.” To never judge women by appearance is alien to the male mind, so they are always trying to get women to “look” a certain way.

    Fashion, make-up, clothing, diets, gyms all of this fake sculpting of the body is about the manipulation of women.
    Night clubs with their blaring music are designed to disorient women. Advertising and media are designed to undermine women’s sense of what is right or wrong.

    Men have yet to get any of this, and I don’t believe they ever will. They are forever damned as the worthless creatures of the earth. Maybe someday, when we have scientific breakthroughs, we will simply limit the male population to 10% of the population as a whole. That 10% will be closely regulated. Only then will women have some peace and safety, because it is men who ARE the problem on just about any national issue you can imagine. Crime, rape, war, weapons production, terrible TV shows, mass consumerism, dumbing down of everything. Men are to blame for bringing the world so close to destruction, and from an environmental point of view, perhaps it really is time for them to become extinct (can’t spell that word to save my life).

  63. Spiders

    Satsuma you just articulated almost everythng that’s been pissing me off for a long time. Thankyou.

  64. slythwolf

    The reason I consider all coercive sex rape is that I define rape based on the motivation of the rapist. Any man whose motivation for having sex with a woman is independent of that woman’s enthusiastic enjoyment is a rapist in my eyes. If he doesn’t care whether she really wants to or not, if he’ll do what he has to to get his dick in her, that’s rape.

  65. Flores

    Your last paragraph seems awfully essentialist, Satsuma. Science has far better to offer than limiting male births, which we could manage with today’s tech. I suggest Firestone’s vision as an alternative. Instead of making men a perpetual underclass in a new hierarchy, we could annihilate the gender distinction entirely. Whatever humans have made can be unmade.

  66. monika

    RR, I appreciate what I take to be concern and support of women who have been sexually assaulted/raped. I believe that the word “rape” (for example) is used inappropriately and renders invisible people who have survived sexual assault when we talk about “raping the environment” or even more vulgarly “raping an exam”.

    Where I live (Canada), coercive sex = sexual assault. (We use the term sexual assault legally; rape is a US legal term).

    Basically, (in Canada) sexual assault is any sexual activity that occurs without voluntary consent, and voluntary consent is not given if we suggest with our body language “no” (e.g. by “freezing”), if people manipulate us or pressure us into sexual activity (including asking us over and over to have sex), or if we are sleeping or intoxicated etc.

    I like this definition of sexualized violence in terms of consent being voluntary. It fits with my understandings and beliefs.

  67. Bushfire

    Perhaps the Canadian government has a nice way of wording it, but even in Canada sexual assault conviction is very low. They can word it any way they want, but if they’re not going to stop it, then it doesn’t matter what word they use to describe a crime they are condoning.

  68. monika


    You are absolutely right. It appears that conviction rates are highest in Canadian cities wit specialized sexual assault police forces where police are actually educated as to what sexual assault is, what it looks like, how survivors might present (in that everyone responds to trauma in a different way and just because someone isn’t crying doesn’t mean she wasn’t assaulted) etc.

    My point was that the very narrow US views of sexual violence (which in my understanding at least in some states allow for marital rape) are not universal.

    My point is not to suggest that Canada is free from the patriarchy and that we have our shit together in prosecuting sexual violence because we don’t.

    We still have asshat rape-apologist police officers, judges, lawyers, Crown (prosecutors) and citizens who are glad to view sexual assault only in terms of rape-apologist mythos, and not within the context of the Criminal Code of Canada.

    Personally, I don’t think the courts can stop it, anymore than survivors can stop it. Sexual assault can only be stopped by offenders and the eradication of the patriarchy.

  69. another voice

    i *have* heard men talk to other men about how porn is bad. i heard one risk his academic career to do so against the disapproval of a mentor. it’s not common, but it can happen.

  70. Satsuma

    Flores uses the “E” word:

    Essentialist is one of those women’s studies words, that means “we give men a way out.” Men are to blame for the world’s messes. They are the reason women feel uneasy at night, or when women walk down a street.

    Dumb little story here: A few years ago, we had a huge party at a women’s bar, we’re talking hundreds of cars, and they hired this firm owned and run by women– women parked the cars– valet all very L.A. After a wonderful night of fun with the gang, I headed out to my car, and this lovely friendly college-educated woman came up and asked me for my ticket. Cheerfully she sent for another very nice woman to fetch the car! My goddess, I couldn’t believe the heaven of not having to deal with some sleazy guy at a parking lot at night for the first time in my life! Even something as small as this transaction shows how different the world would be if men were simply removed from the planet for maybe a long weekend every now and then.

    We could have a whole men’s movement called — Get men out of the city, and it would be woman’s land. Imagine that! Or women take over the entire capital for the day, or take over all the churches for a Sunday! The possibilities are endless.

    The thing is, most women have never even experienced the liberation of a parking lot free of sleazy men in red jackets with their hands out for tips. This company even paid the women much more than the hourly wage, so their customers weren’t even pestered for tips. Needless to say, I gave each woman a $20, they had made my night!!

    I was thinking the other day about what it would be like to live in a country where women ruled everything and controlled everything, and where we didn’t care how fearful or ignored men really were. We’d send men as a punishment to this land, and they would live as 4th class citizens for years before they were allowed to be reeducated. Imagine how men would be outraged world wide at this “human rights(i.e. male rights only violation)? I can hear them a-hollering right now, baying at midnight, screaming in outrage.

    I know, I know, I am a hard core kick the dogs to the curb type of feminist. I hate this idea that women are peaceful or that we waste our time trying to convince men of anything. I want my own country, I want men in prison or kept under control the way you would a dangerous dog (no offense to the poor dogs). If this is essentialist, then I’m lovin it, to quote McDonalds!

    Put the sexist offenders in the stocks in the town square so we could throw rotten tomatoes at them till our hearts content. Call me essentialist, buy hey, give me that old time radical women’s planet, women’s world freedom and I’m there.

    Failing that, can’t we even make a few YouTubes with men getting hit with tomatoes in the town square? And I’m being so kind to the rapists, the genital mulitlation societies, the child abusers, the wife beaters… someone put out some YouTubes so us essentialists can laugh our heads off as men are tormented in tomato land!

  71. bonobobabe

    (and I love how men act like their own bodily fluid is so disgusting yet they expect the lowly, inferior woman to devour it like manna from heaven

    Gawd, yes. And my favorite is when they do go down on you, they spread your labia as far apart as they can, make sure all the hair is out of the way (that is, assuming they consent to go down on an unshaven women in the first place), and then touch the very tip of their tongue to your clitoris as if any more contact would give them a disease or something. But you’re supposed to suck their dick like it’s the newly developed 32nd flavor of Baskin Robbins. Fuck that.

  72. bonobobabe

    If men can’t get turned on without visual stimulation, what about the blind? Are we supposed to assume that they’re incapable of getting it up? Think on that for half a second and the whole ‘men are visually stimulated’ bullshit knowledge falls on its ass. Blind men screw.

    Yeah, and the blind man’s wife is writing to a sex advice columnist to tell her that her husband wants her to drink whiskey and smoke two packs a day so that she has a nice sultry, gravelly voice to help him get it up. He can’t help it. He’s auditorially stimulated!

  73. Flores

    Again, I’ll take Firestone’s cybernetic communism over your vision, Satsuma. Men are just humans currently conditioned to act male. That’s not divinely ordained and immutable. Separation could be dramatically better in the short term, but it’s no excuse for men to accept what the patriarchy has taught them. They need to change their behavior. I don’t see why this would be impossible. Whatever people have constructed can be deconstructed.

    Out of curiosity, where would you put transsexuals? Would they go with their biological sex or chosen gender?

  74. Shelby

    In Sydney, Australia it’s World Youth Day – god knows why they call it a day when it runs for a week – where the Pope rocks into town and all the Catholics have a big meet and greet love-fest. Herewith the following story from the Australian Newspaper dated 17.7.08 …

    “THE Pope’s expected apology to victims of sexual abuse by priests has been sabotaged by a senior Australian bishop, who criticised people for “dwelling crankily on old wounds”.

    The bishop organising World Youth Day, Anthony Fisher, made the remarks in response to questions about two Melbourne women who were repeatedly raped by priest Kevin O’Donnell when they were pupils at Sacred Heart Primary School in Oakleigh from 1988 to 1993.

    The case was detailed on ABC’s Lateline on Tuesday, but Bishop Fisher told the World Youth Day daily media briefing that he had not seen the program. “Happily, I think most of Australia was enjoying, delighting in, the beauty and goodness of these young people … rather than dwelling crankily, as a few people are doing, on old wounds,” he said.”

  75. Satsuma

    Flores, nice call on Firestone. Only I’m not waiting around for these guys to change. They are not going to. What has to change is women kow towing to them, living with them and reproducing for them. Women have got to walk out of any place where men dominate to create worlds of their own.

    Half the world’s population enslaved by these monsters is really too much; this Viche government attitude that a lot of women have is getting ridiculous. And we act as if nothing is happening.

    It’s weird sometimes to read these feminist blogs. Women suddenly see the light only after some man beats the hell out of them, then viola, they get it. But before this lovely event occured they were conservatives, cooked and cleaned for the masters and seem completely oblivious to the world of women’s revolution.

    It seems to me that it is women who are often uneasy with gaining power, and women who put way too much energy into trying to change men. Why bother? Why can’t we just say they are evil and beyond redemption and move to where we think women can go the fastest?

    Transgender is the latest hot potato out there. To tell you the truth, I have yet to meet an MTF that wasn’t a male brain still; it’s an immitation of women, but somehow they have the same blabby male boring manners, and geez the obsession with make-up and clothing can rival the hetero women! So for good measure, they should be kept out of paradise and left for awhile in pergatory. Then if they develop exceptionally good behavior, we’d give them a trial run now and then.

  76. RebelRebel

    I understand the appeal of occasionally indulging in a fantasy, but tearing down the patriarchy just to reproduce the same sex-class hierarchies in reverse isn’t what feminism is really about, in my understanding.

    On the other hand, after the gay-men-are-responsible-for-mass-murder-by-spreading-AIDS post, I’m laying even odds that “Satsuma” is someone’s idea of satire.

  77. monika

    Transwomen are women in my feminist revolution. I appreciate that this is not the experience of all feminists, but Satsuma, your languaging (e.g. “that” and “it’s”) is incredibly dehumanizing. Transwomen are not the enemy. My friend, the enemy is the patriarchy.

  78. Mar Iguana

    “Transwoman” is the patriarchy.

  79. Lisa Harney

    I suppose that’s convenient – use trans women to stand in for the patriarchy, because taking on the patriarchy takes work and effort, and may involve actual risk.

    Taking on trans women, though? Pretty safe target by comparison – society largely doesn’t like us, doesn’t support us, cheers our murderers on and blames us for getting killed in the first place.

    So instead of challenging men, real actual living, breathing men who engage in sexist acts, who perpetuate rape culture, who harm women every day, you attack trans women, slander and libel us, demonize our motivations and twist our lives to fit your prejudices, and then blame us for all of these prejudices you’ve imposed upon us.

    Yes, that’s feminism. That’s advanced patriarchy blaming right there.

  80. Lisa Harney

    Also, Satsuma, Allen Ray Andrade – the man who bludgeoned Angie Zapata to death because he discovered she was trans? He referred to Angie as “it.” Her crime? Having a date with him.

    Isn’t it good to know what kind of harm you’re piling on to when you start going on about how trans women are essentially men? That you use the same language as a man who felt so entitled that he reached out and grabbed a woman’s crotch because he thought she might be a man?

  81. Twisty


    No trans-bashing.

    I can’t believe I even have to say it.

    “Satsuma,” incidentally, has been banned.

  82. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    I’ll just quote good ol’ Ob. Rev. BDL here and say that the transgals are my sisters.

  83. Lieutenant Reverend B. Dagger Lee

    Thanks, Antoinette, love right back at you and Lisa Harney.

    And transwomen are–HELLO?!–members of the sex class, and subject to the violence and threat of violence used by the patriarchy to subjugate our class.

  84. Mar Iguana

    Spare me.

  85. Lisa Harney

    No, not in the least. I’m not spared the anti-trans bigotry you propagate – the same bigotry that society lets men use as an excuse to murder trans women* – unless I completely lock myself away from the world. Why should you be spared my or any other trans person’s reaction to it?

    * Just google Angie Zapata

  86. Lisa Harney

    B. Dagger Lee – thank you for making that point. It’s one that gets glossed over again and again.

    And thanks, Antoinette.

  87. Mar Iguana

    You’re a better woman than I am, Lisa Harney. I can’t even sort out my own feelings, obviously mistaking pity for fear and hatred. I’ll work on that.

  88. B. Dagger Lee

    Pity is often a defense mechanism against fear and hatred, especially when it posits–condescendingly–oneself as better than the other.

  89. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker


    Well. Apologies if this link is redundant, but I’ve been away. Essential receptacleness confirmed by Russian Judge.

  90. rootlesscosmo

    @The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker:
    “If we had no sexual harassment we would have no children,” the judge ruled. (from the linked article)

    A patriarchy-blaming Russian male judge! Who knew?

  91. Lisa Harney

    “Transwoman” is the patriarchy.

    That doesn’t look like pity to me, but I do see fear and hatred in it. Trans women aren’t the patriarchy, we suffer under it, just as other women do.

    And, isn’t pity a bit condescending? What’s wrong with basic human respect? I never asked for pity. A nice house, a few cats, a good job, sure, but never pity.

    The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker: I… have words, but I put them on my blog. Wow.

  92. Mar Iguana

    Pity is the recognition of the pitiable. Period. I don’t hate individuals. I do, however, have heaps of fear and hatred of patriarchy and it’s relentless reversals.

    To say boys are women is “like saying ‘war is love’ or ‘Cool Whip is real.” Or, pity is fear and hatred.

    Reverse your brains out, boys. You’ve found safe haven here at IBTP while I, a real woman, will be banned for pointing out the obvious.

  93. B. Dagger Lee

    I think the relentless scapegoating of an often vulnerable population,and the obsession with the purity of the group are two of the many wheels which turn the system of the patriarchy.

    As a lifelong big ole dyke, I’ve never been considered a “real woman” by majority opinion in Amerika. Who exactly is it who is reifying gender here?

  94. Mar Iguana

    Exactly, you. Gender is a patriarchal construct. You are a real woman, the “majority opinion in Amerika” be damned.

  95. Lisa Harney

    Natalia Antonova has more information on the story The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker linked – if you follow my pingback, it has a link back to Natalia’s. Short version: The numbers were presented badly and inaccurately, and in misleading ways. Also, the judge who said that was female. No name known yet, but the quote is believable in Russia’s current climate. She’ll update further when she has more information.


    Trans women aren’t pitiable. That’s something you’re imposing on us. We’re not boys – that’s something else you’re imposing on us. We’re not patriarchy – that is a third thing you’re imposing on us.

    The patriarchy hates us because we don’t live by the rules. The patriarchal rules that say “boys are boys and girls are girls.” That gender is an essential trait derived from the genitals, the chromosomes, wherever the goalpost’s sitting right now. That what’s in our heads cannot in any way be used to determine who we are. That when it comes to picking a side, we’re not allowed agency or self-determination. We’re supposed to stay on one side of the fence forever and always.

    And you’re playing their song.

    I’m not asking to be friends. I’m asking you to give more of a damn about actual men who are out to harm women, and not take potshots at a target that’s not out to get you. Trans women aren’t your enemy, and probably never will be. Calling us men or boys, claiming that altering our bodies somehow rapes your bodies, constructing elaborate-yet-offensive stereotypes to pin on us, none of these things will challenge the patriarchy or the actual men who cause actual harm to women.

    And I’m not offended here, just frustrated.

    B. Dagger Lee,

    When I had the chance to compare notes with butch women, I was surprised to learn how many experiences we had in common that I had mentally categorized as “these happened because I’m trans,” but now I see them as a wider category of gender policing, ’cause I learned and stuff.

  96. Lisa Harney

    Also, I am a real woman.

    I can’t help it, I can’t undo it. I don’t want to.

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