And, Lara: HOLLA! I’ve really enjoyed your comments.

Just to head any confusion off right now: this is the last you will hear from the real Fatemeh on this issue.

But I have to say, when you look at human rights track records and what happens when certain religious traditions are “exported” well, we’ve got trouble.

There are always exceptions, but from a feminist point of view, why are we defending any of these idiot woman destroying religions out there.

One of my favorite Dalai Lama comments, by the way– must be fact checked and may be too good to be true, but here it is: when his royal patriarchal buddhis highness was asked why the Tibetan people have to suffer so much, he replied that it was their karma for treating women so badly over the centuries in Tibet.

NON-TRIBAL THINKING?? Wow, way to go with the racial and ethnic stereotypes, Satsuma. Jesus fuckin Christ.

“And yes! tribal thinking! this isn’t a derogative definition: it’s a factual one.”

Um, no, jael, most Muslim peoples are not made up of “tribes.” This only exists in most parts of Afghanistan and maybe one or two other countries. In most parts of Africa there are ETHNIC GROUPS. There is a difference between ethnic groups and tribes. Get it right.
Stop trying to cover up your racism in technical language, cuz this sandnigger bitch ain’t fallin’ for it.

Sure, but I think that we can all agree that it’s very different for men to submit to a patriarchal system than for women to do so.

The commenter posting as “Jezebella” is neither ApostatePakistaniGirl, The Apostate, nor Fatemah Fakharaie.

Satsuma, a sufficient number of your remarks have struck just the wrong offensive note; please do your blaming elsewhere.

*I* know that Muslim is a religious choice and not a racial identity, but I’m not sure Satsuma does.

Yo, Jez..

The thing is, when religion is used as a socio-cultural tool; a mechanism to regulate all aspects of living, dying and all - it is not a religious choice. It’s the fabric into which you are born. If there is no other choice, if every thing you do is framed through a religious lens; and you 300 miles from the middle of nowhere - where you never get to hear anything different - then being a Muslim, being a Jew, being a Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, whatever - this ceases to to be a choice you make; it simply is.

I don’t necessarily think women are stupid for going a long with all of this, because it is cultural conditioning and brainwashing, and if you leave Islam, does feminism offer a concrete alternative to losing your entire immigrant extended family? I believe women being trapped in cultural norms keeps them pliant and docile. They don’t know where else to go, and haven’t been given the skills of independence and non-tribal thinking.

this is the para you object to, right? I kinda like it. It’s framed up as what, migrants to the west, and the difficulties faced by daughters. But if we leave that out, and we say - no, it’s a paragraph about… women from Chitral, in the North West of Pakistan, near the Afghani boarder, I have no problem with any of it. Indeed - where do you go? What social role can you take on?

And yes! tribal thinking! this isn’t a derogative definition: it’s a factual one. Large parts of the world are organised around tribes, and the thinking of these inside these communities reflect this. it wouldn’t work otherwise. In much the same way as the Chinese system wouldn’t work without rigid control over distributed information and studiously not teaching critical thinking skills. Oppressive systems are supported by oppressive thinking systems, which are internalised.

Because of the similarity of our nom de plumes, there was a bit of confusion at this blog and someone just alerted me that that might be happening here.

Just like the ones I got in elementary school.

Do they explain why grown women should need a permission slip to travel? Is it supposed to be “for their own safety” or do they not even bother with that pretense?”

Don’t you know, Gayle? It’s for empowerfulizment!