Perhaps. But it’s a relief just the same.

And I’ve got to say - I do miss the sheltered workshop.

My impressions of the ‘radfem blogsphere’ are not overwhelmingly positive, I’m afraid. Not something I want to get drawn into; and too easily done I fear.

So, take this as an ‘I withdraw at this point’ - I have neither the desire nor the energy to continue with this conversion. Poor form, perhaps, to withdraw after making a post, but it does leave closing statements and last posts to whoever so desires.

hat tips all around, best wishes generally.

where I say: But if you want my general strategy? What we should be doing? It’s setting it up, so that selling sex isn’t the only option available;

I mean- so that selling sex it’s not the only option choice that meets the criteria against which the decision is made.

Say the criteria is making enough money to feed the family; or that gets you away from your family; or isn’t in a factory, or some hellish home based industry; that accommodates your health issues..

You might get work, but it might be poorly paid work in a factory. No use. Or work in the home village, but you don’t want to be near your family. Or there is work in the city, but it’s laborious work that hurts your eyes. These alternates aren’t going to provide options, as they do not meet the criteria against which the decision to sell sex is being made (eg: money, make my family happy, provide for my parents, want consumer goods, etc…)

Options are alternates that meet individuals criteria for deciding.

I agree with you men are the problem. Wholeheartedly. 100%. No argument.

But how that translates into a plan of action - I don’t know. Start teaching them in school? Having them raised only by women till they’re 16? I have no idea. If there’s a strategy out there for bringing this about; then let’s do it. You say we can. Fire away. All ears. I would love to hear them your strategies.

In the meantime, while you’re bringing about the revolution, there remain women who are sold as slaves. I don’t see that supporting this demographic in whatever way best suits their needs is mutually exclusive of bringing about the revolution. We can do both at once, no?

I use the concept agency because it’s become important to me. You can agree or disagree with it, no problems. I emphasize it because I’ve found it to be useful tool. I did not say that agency was equal to consent; I said that within a limited range of options people chose to do certain things; that the range of choices is limited can negate the possibility of consent; it does not negate the fact that, to whatever limited degree there was, agency was exerted.

My complaint wasn’t against radfem circles, sorry that it came across as such. It was against the generally held notions around prostitution and interventions - the “saving” that goes on, western models of intervention. That there is a word for victim in Arabic is only reasonable, I’d imagine victim is a fairly universal concept.

I don’t want to mold women’s actions/choices. If I was in the same awful situation I’d probably be a prostitute too. So that’s not the point.

That you’d do the same thing in the same situation is exactly the point.

I don’t think it’s a matter of molding choices . It’s about creating choices, as it were. Providing more options for women to make a choice from. Stopping men from paying for sex does not actually address the issue of why the woman was selling sex in the first place. Men don’t buy the sex; woman still hungry. Men don’t by the sex; children still uneducated, starving.

A situation where women don’t need to sell sex - where they have enough to eat, access to decent work etc..: this is vital, in my mind. It address far more than the selling of sex: it looks at economics; family life; food security; education and so on. All of which are vital for women’s safety.

…And if it’s anything like the strategies used by feminists in Nepal, it involves helping women get training (as tour guides, artisans, etc) so that they have a way out–not giving prostituted and trafficked women pep talks about how wonderful it is that they are not victims, and that they have choices.

xochital, i don’t know what makes you think I’d have the conversation that I’m having here with a prostituted woman. But anyway.

What I’ve found, after living in Asia for two years, is that some Western NGO workers bring with them the mythology of choice, which hinders their ability to see reality and root causes.

Oddly enough, I came here with a point of view very similar to the one that’s being espoused here by various commenters - it’s been work/friendships I’ve made that have made me change my mind. The inverse of what you’re saying. But anyway. That’s another story all together.

Strategies - of course it’s similar to what’s going on in Nepal, it’s about producing more choices; there’s training; business start up loans; as much pcysho-social support as possible: there’s a remarkable degree of continuity in reintegration practices around the world.

But if you want my general strategy? What we should be doing? It’s setting it up, so that selling sex isn’t the only option available; that there are other, viable, meaningful options available for women, for families, for children - no matter where they are in the world. Awareness raising is no use, unless alternatives are provided.

That the men’s behaviour has to change - absolutely. I don’t see that the above statement, and the idea that men need to stop thinking this is OK are incompatible.

Lara - one last comment, just for you.

I’ve noticed that a lot of people who vehemently react to my comments just say something along the lines of “you lack basic comprehension” “you don’t know anything” “you need education” etc. I’ve seen it a million times. It’s so incredibly condescending.

I don’t know, but perhaps there’s a reason for a lot of people (a million people?) saying the same thing. I find that if I hear the same thing over and over, there usually is something in it worth thinking about, even if I don’t agree with it.

I’m going to make a guess here and say I think it might have something to do with your delivery. But hey - I’m an arrogant, evil, racist who will go to evil racist hell; don’t mind me too much.

How have I NOT addressed what you actually said? I’ve fricking QUOTED you in my previous comment.

The concept/word for “victim” is not at all restricted to “the West.” For example, the Arabic word for “victim” (in a rough translation, the “sacrifice/victim”) is “daheya.” So I don’t know where you get this idea that the concept of “victim” is a “myth” particular to “the West.”

“There is a choice inherent in all of these. Not necessarily much of a choice - sure. But it’s the choice that these women have. If you refuse to acknowledge that they DO make a choice, then we are looking at them as virtually sub human; incapable of any control over their self destiny.”

I disagree. Just because someone doesn’t have a choice at all in a situation it does not make them essentially sub-human. That is EXACTLY why I have a problem with women being forced into prostitution.

“The poster cases for people’s opinion, absolutely, these cases exist - the sold as a child, chained to a bed, raped 20 times a day. These cases do happen. They are not - for the most part - the majority. Nor does the fact that most situations do not reflect that particular mythology make them any less horrendous.”

Any person with a brain knows that slavery does not have to look exactly like that, jael. I don’t get my kicks off of sensationalized imagery of sexual slavery. I am concerned with the lived realities of these women, not with how those realities appear at first glance.

“Outrage is great; but how we articulate outrage into a strategy to stop the sale of sex - that’s the interesting question. I can stamp my foot along side you; it does nothing on the ground. So I look at it differently to you. I think it’s just as horrific as you do; really. I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t. Nothing is ever black and white as it appears, though. Ever. And sold sex in the ‘developing’ world is just one of those things.”

“If someone’s prostitution is feeding their family - irrespective of the ethnicity of their ‘consumers’; irrespective of wether or not they are getting beaten or raped by their pimp; irrespective of how awful we think this situation is : if we want to solve the problem and stop new women selling sex/having sex sold on their behalf, then we need to address the feeding of the family.”

I don’t want to mold women’s actions/choices. If I was in the same awful situation I’d probably be a prostitute too. So that’s not the point. I want to stop MEN from thinking they can pay to rape women (a.k.a. prostitution). It’s men that are the problem. And yes, we can come up with practical solutions of how to stomp out the male demand for female bodies.

So, with all of the complaining you’ve done about the “mythology of the ‘victim’” in radfem circles, may I ask, what exactly IS your solution to this? It’s awesome that you work with prostitutes in the “developing world,” but with all that said, I can’t understand why you keep insisting on this concept of agency. There’s a huge difference between having one or maybe two terrible options to survive and feed your family, and having AGENCY. To just keep saying “prostitutes are empowered!” is not the solution. Because that is what you’re saying. Agency can lead to empowerment, right?

Oh, and thanks for making lots of leaping assumptions about me: that I’m a privileged snooty liberal arts college kid who doesn’t know anything about women’s oppression. Interesting how you accused me of saying you don’t know about anything while saying I don’t in the same breath.
I’ve noticed that a lot of people who vehemently react to my comments just say something along the lines of “you lack basic comprehension” “you don’t know anything” “you need education” etc. I’ve seen it a million times. It’s so incredibly condescending.

And I don’t want to hear that stupid chorus of women out there who defend porn and prostitution, thinking it’s great for them. I just don’t buy this. Like the rock and rollers who later recant their awful “lifestyle” and really get that it’s bad, I think people often defend their so-called choices, because admitting being trapped is too awful.

Jobs= freedom for women. It’s the bottom line everywhere.

What I’ve found, after living in Asia for two years, is that some Western NGO workers bring with them the mythology of choice, which hinders their ability to see reality and root causes.

Also, you say:

“Outrage is great; but how we articulate outrage into a strategy to stop the sale of sex - that’s the interesting question. I can stamp my foot along side you; it does nothing on the ground.”

What is your strategy? You say you work in anti-trafficking, so you must have one. And if it’s anything like the strategies used by feminists in Nepal, it involves helping women get training (as tour guides, artisans, etc) so that they have a way out–not giving prostituted and trafficked women pep talks about how wonderful it is that they are not victims, and that they have choices.