Dec 03 2008

Spinster aunt likes deer

Run, Bambi’s mom, run!

No deer were harmed in the making of this photograph. My dog Bert was chasing her, though. He does this all the time, but so far the only mammal he has successfully run to earth is a skunk, and needless to say the skunk had the advantage in that stand-off.

I awaken on Saturday mornings to the dulcet tones of gunshots echoing through the valley. It’s deer hunting season here in the Texas Hill Country. Manly men from Austin and San Antonio buy hunting leases in my hood. They get a gang of bloodthirsty pals together, outfit themselves in dudely camo drag from Cabela’s, ditch the missus, and infest the hills with their guns’n’ammo for the weekend.

The usual procedure, as I understand it, is for them to hide in small structures called deer blinds. They throw corn around in front of the deer blind. They swig bourbon from hip flasks and suppress homosexual yearnings until some hapless ungulate wanders by and starts eating the corn. Then they blow its fucking brains out.

Years ago, before it came into the Faster family, El Rancho Deluxe was used for hunting. “It’s almost certain,” said the ranch seller guy, “that LBJ once hunted here.” No doubt! That LBJ was pretty ubiquitous. According to people around here who tell you stuff, there is not a centimeter of Central Texas that was not personally trodden upon, owned, sold, lost in a poker game, or peed on by LBJ.

Anyway, on the oaky knoll behind my house lies a relic from those good old gun-totin’ times: an ancient deer blind. It’s got a hell of a view. I call it LBJ’s Vacation Lodge. Spinster aunts are typically expert archaeologists, so it was for me but the work of a moment to unearth the rusting remnants of the barbed wire death trap that used to surround this deer blind on 3 sides. The deer, one surmises, were lured in by the corn, trapped by the barbed wire, and murdered like gangsters. Boo-ya.

A guy I know who is in the process of leaving his wife of 20 years (he “loves” her, but she’s really let herself go, so sayonara fat old wife!) takes solace, in this troubled time, by absconding to the Hill Country to shoot deer on weekends. He offered me some venison. He has “more than he knows what to do with.”

I declined with curled lip. We went back and forth with the whole conservation argument, which basically says that hunting is good for deer because it keeps their population in check.

Oh, please. Hunting is good for hunters because it gives them something to shoot when they can’t shoot their fat old wives, and for corporations who sell guns and camouflage beer coozies, and for taxidermists. However, I happen to know that the deer don’t appreciate it one bit.

Through my trusty binoculars, I’ve gotten to know quite a few deer since moving out here. Because nobody at El Rancho Deluxe is psychotic enough to shoot at’em all weekend, the joint is more or less crammed to the canopy with refugees from the bloodbath. They’re pleasant, harmless little things who, take it from me, vastly prefer being deer to being more venison than some dude knows what to do with.

I’m no weepy sentimentalist — OK, yes I am, bite me — but bloodsport? Come the fuck on.


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  1. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    I say bring the natural predators back. That would cull the herd, hunters as well as deer. But no one listens to me.

    I’d so rather see them ungulating around the countryside than mounted in someone’s rumpus room. I hate that shit.

  2. ElizaN

    If the hunters want a real sport, let’s pit them against the deer without all the extra crud. A naked, weaponless hunter versus a pissed-off deer. NOW who’s a big strong manly dood?

  3. Tina H

    I say bring the natural predators back. That would cull the herd, hunters as well as deer. But no one listens to me.

    I listen to you and think it would be a damn good idea in fact. We have a second on the motion!

  4. slade

    I love deer. I despise deer hunters. I have this cool shirt that has 2 deer dressed in hunting outfits walking on 2 legs as they drag a man who is hog tied with a terrified look on his face to their truck.

    I enjoy wearing this shirt and walking thru the hunting section of Meijer’s.

    I grew up in the country and stupid boys would stop at our house and ask if they could go back in the woods and hunt. I would scare the hell out of them if they stepped one foot on this property ever again. I’d say things like, ‘We shoot to kill then feed ya to the dogs.’ I’d act all rednecky and crazy and mean. Good fun.

    I still have not recovered from the death of Bambi’s mother. Walt Disney was a sadistic misogynist.

    My uncle would kill the deer…because they ate his corn. I would pat his fat belly and tell him they should have eatten more. But Karma came to my rescue one day. My uncle loved to ride around on his silly, noisy motorcycle and one day a deer came out from nowhere and knocked him off it…shattered many a bone in his shoulder. It hurts to this day!

    If I would see a bunch (herd?) of deer heading for the highway to cross, I would run out and stop traffic or I would shoo them back toward the woods. The deer would stand there and look at me as I waved my arms and yelled, ‘Go back.’ Finally I would give a sharp whistle and off they’d go.

    I tell deer hunters if they really want to be a service to the environment and display their courage and bravery, they need to bounty hunt rapists. Now that’s a real man!

    OK…just one more thing, my aunt wanted to go that Texas Longhorn restaurant for her birthday (uck) where all of these dead animals were hanging on the walls. I finally asked the waitress for another napkin and covered the head of the poor antelope I was forced to look at.

    The older I get the more I love animals and the less I like people.

  5. jc.

    After your last post I´m trying to imagine a world where I wouldn´t be a landscaper and I wouldn´t be upset by the huge gangs of deer that traipise about the gardens of stockholm delicately eating the heads off of tulips (no plant without a flower looks more useles than a tulip without it´s head), scratching the fur off their horns by debarking small trees and shrubs (clearly the more beautiful and delicate the better for horns) and otherwise trampling down everything they don´t eat.
    I´m trying to imagine a world where I´m not banned from every Bambi matine because of my phsycotic habit off attending Bambi showings just to scream at the top of my lungs to the hunters who´ve just shot bambi´s mom “Shoot him , shoot him!. He´s getting away!”
    Sigh. I know it scares the kids and really doesn´t change anything and that I am truly in a fucked up perspective.
    This patriarchy thing is sure complex.

  6. yttik

    “A naked, weaponless hunter versus a pissed-off deer”

    LOL, forgive me, but I think this would be great entertainment. A new sport for the Colosseum. I have a list of naked, unarmed hunters who I’d very much like to see attempt to prove their manhood….

    I have tangled with a deer before in hand to hand combat. I think I’d put my money on the deer.

  7. Eileen

    Well, but, but — It ain’t no anti-patriarchy revolution, but if a hunter is a good shot (so the kill is humane) and actually eats what he kills, then isn’t he at least eating super-free-range venison instead of feed-lot meat?

    (Not that I have a huge love for hunters, because they make noise way too early in the morning, and sometimes they drive down the road with a gutted deer and drip blood the whole way. That is gross, and un-neighborly.)

  8. Twisty

    Any animal with horns is likely to win a bar fight against one without’em.

    Deer certainly are the bane of landscapers. Why would anybody want to look out their window and see a couple of cute furry deer grazing on the lawn? It’s incomprehensible!

  9. mary

    Deer certainly are the bane of landscapers. Why would anybody want to look out their window and see a couple of cute furry deer grazing on the lawn? It’s incomprehensible!

    Exactly! When I lived in rural Vermont, I had all sorts of critters frolicking on my property, and loved it! My neighbors thought I was nuts to let the deer eat my landscape, the rabbits eat my hostas, and the birds eat my raspberries. One neighbor regularly got out his rifle to protect his garden. Now I’m remembering when my mother would come over and we would sit on the back deck at dusk with wine and wait for the resident doe to come with her fawns to graze. It was spectacular, and I miss it so much now that I live in the city again.

  10. B. Dagger Lee

    Hunters leave garbage, beer cans and shells everywhere, too.

  11. PhysioProf

    Great photo, Twisty!

  12. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    So long as they eat the deer things. Hunting for “sport” gives me the shudders.

  13. Twisty

    Thanks, PP! I was planning to put it into my award-nominated collection of out-of-focus photos of shovel-handles, when I suddenly noticed that there was a deer in the background. I tried photoshopping it out, to no avail.

  14. Orange

    Right there, Twisty? That’s serendipity. Photographic serendipity. Will the blurry shovel pix make it into art book form, or just a gallery show?

    Hunting horrifies me, and this post and thread amuse me.

    It occurs to one that the deer population isn’t likely to grow beyond what the earth can sustain, because that’s kinda how nature works. The only hitch is when “excess” deer wander out of the woods looking for a nosh and turn to somebody’s garden for their next meal. People don’t like to share their space much. Mind you, if a person really doesn’t want to contend with wildlife, there are places that person can live. Like in a highrise in a densely populated city with no deer for miles around. It’s hardly fair to move somewhere within a mile of the forest and then complain that the forest creatures are too close.

  15. Hattie

    If only those deers would not let themselves go the way they do, hunters would stop trying to eliminate them.

  16. featherbed

    I come from a small northern community and my family and community all hunted. Our “groceries” were hunted, fished or grown in kitchen gardens by family members, relatives or neighbours. I don’t know much about sports hunters in the south, but I feel pretty offended when I read statements from people whom I know or strongly suspect spent their formative years in cities, claiming “ALL hunters are _______” (fill in the blank). It’s as bigoted as “All women are____” and as ridiculous as “All people who shop in grocery stores are ____”

    Where I come from just about everyone hunted and more often than not, it involved the whole family. Some hunters were assholes, some of them were sensitive and generous. The act of hunting did not define their personality, although I must say I never met anyone from my region who was disdainful or disrespectful of the animals they hunted. What they disdained was waste and a lack of self-sufficiency.

    As far as “knowing” what the deer appreciate, I have no idea what went through the mind of any of the elk, caribou, seals, rabbits or fish whose lives supported mine, but I for one would prefer the hunter’s bullet to being taken down by carnivores who feast on my hindquarters and belly while I am still trying to get away. I have seen this and it is horrifying.

    Hunters shoot deer because they can’t shoot their fat wives? Perhaps this hateful cartoon fantasy exists in Texas, but not where I come from.

  17. Theriomorph

    I confess, some days I go to YouTube, type in “Deer Gets Revenge on Hunter,” and experience malevolent gratification. I just wish there was some footage like that a) without cock rock, and b) about which I could be sure the deer didn’t just get shot as soon as the camera stopped rolling.

    Only in my dreams.

  18. Twisty

    “I don’t know much about sports hunters in the south, but”

    Oh dear. Texas isn’t in the south, hon. It’s in Texas.

    You needn’t be offended. If shooting deer for recreation is your idea of a big weekend, be my guest. But the practice does not stand up well to radical feminist critique.

  19. Dawn Coyote

    I live in the city, and the skunks and raccoons have no problem getting around my cat-proof fencing. I have great respect for those critters, able to survive around us genocidal types as they are, and the cats appreciate them, too: they bring a bit of excitement to their otherwise dull semi-urban backyard.

    I don’t mind the coyotes, either, but my cat-proof fencing is also coyote-proof, and for good reason. I don’t really have a problem with hunters, so long as they eat what they kill, but I’m happier if they don’t eat my cats (speaking from experience).

    I was a vegetarian for 8 years before opting out of the kinder and gentler life to revert to being a genocidal carnivore.

    It’s my nature.

  20. Lauren

    Twisty, I think featherbed was saying that not all hunters are sport hunters – she said in her neck of the woods, hunters hunt for food, not for recreation.

  21. Twisty

    But even so, consuming meat at all is kind of a sticky issue in radical feminist thought.

  22. Dilly

    Didja hear Michele Norris interviewing that guy on All Things Considered yesterday? He’s been obsessed with buffalo for a long time. He did a lot of research on the animal so he could write a book about their history in our great country and the symbolism that surrounds them. He has profound respect for the creature. He entered a lottery to hunt them in Alaska, and won! But don’t worry – he did it in a way that didn’t guarantee a kill, so as not to compromise his respect for them. People defending hunting and flesh-eating often make some bogus statement about how they appreciate and respect animals. I guess I probably did once or twice too. The longer I go without eating meat, the more ridiculous it sounds.

  23. vesta44

    I don’t know what the game laws are in TX, but in MN, if you’re caught putting out feed for the deer before you shoot them, you get a huge fine and can have your gun confiscated. It’s called baiting, and is illegal as hell up here, and if it isn’t in TX, it should be. Hunters have enough of an unfair advantage against animals just by using guns and scent, they don’t need to lure the animals in for the kill using food, too.

  24. Erzebeth

    “Hunting is good for hunters because it gives them something to shoot when they can’t shoot their fat old wives”

    Oh yeah, Twisty, you’re spot on about that – I’ve always suspected as such. Taking your anger out on innocent, defenseless creatures is oh-so-manly.

    As for the dude leaving his wife because she’s “really let herself go”, I’d be willing to bet my house that he’s not much of a prize winner himself. But that’s OK, of course, ’cause he’s a dude.

  25. slashy

    As somebody who chooses to grow my own food as a large part of my personal attempt to leave slightly less of a dent on the world with my existence, I can sympathise with those dastardly ‘landscapers’ who aren’t so mightily fond of the deer. Grazing on the lawn is forgivable, but eating my vegetable garden? There might need to be some serious curtailing of THAT going on.

    Fortunately I do not have to grapple personally with this problem because deer are not much of a pest in urban Sydney (the bloodthirsty nature of gardening remains, however: I am a merciless squisher of caterpillars and snails. The planet, I think, would rather I squished the snails and ate from my garden rather than let the snails feast, and bought my vegetables packaged in plastic and transported from the other side of the globe. Veganism is not impact-free if rainforests fell to get that soy to your mouth).

    I am given to understand that with some serious (and seriously expensive) fencing installed, one can protect one’s vegetable garden from deer without needing to resort to firepower. But I don’t think it’s quite so simple as ‘if you don’t want to see deer/wildlife, go live in a concrete highrise’. People who object to the lovely and soothing sight of deer grazing outside their windows might be defending something slightly more worthwhile than their prize hostas or incredibly high-maintenance lawn.

  26. thebewilderness

    I like the deer. If you whistle a tune them will stand there mesmerized while you admire them for as long as you like. Unless there is a Bert around, of course.


  27. PhoenixRising

    I don’t know what the game laws are in TX, but

    Yes, Minnesota and Texas are different in many ways. Fish and Game regs are squarely among those.

    For example, in Texas every feed store (and that’s roughly ten gazillion places) sells the implements with which lazy, unskilled hunters can lure their prey. A device that mounts on the tailgate of the pickup and disperses aromatic feeds is only the slimiest of these items.

    My second grader tried to rescue the ducklings at one such location in Mason, TX last spring, and I feel certain the proprietors have finally recovered from this assault on their way of life. And by gum, it was.

    Typically when they say that we, the Piñata Family, are assaulting their way of life, they are engaging in paranoid speculative fantasy, but this time the little fatherless brown immigrant accompanied by hippie lesbos really did intend to disrupt capitalism as they know it…by re-homing 9 ducklings.

    Good times. Texas hunters, bah.

  28. Nepenthe

    I despise sport hunters. That said, hunting is sometimes the only pathetic option that we trigger and axe happy ‘Merkuns have to keep our ecosystems from complete collapse. Where I come from in North-Central Wisconsin, the forests have a browseline — everything that’s even remotely edible is eaten off from six feet down. There are no saplings. Once the old trees die, nothing’s coming to take their place. The deer here are the size of overgrown rabbits; the only hope I have is that they get so sickly that the coyotes, the only large predator left in the area, will start taking them down so that the forest can survive. There’ve been reports of an introduced wolf-pack being seen a little north, probably very fat and happy. Of course, having a natural ecological balance is out of the question, because a cow might die. Why a wolf would risk a cow’s hooves when they can look funny at a whitetail and have it fall over is beyond me.

    Not that hunters are a great solution, since they have to be paid to hunt doe, which is the only effective form of population control. They’ve tried chemical birth control. In some places up here, I think it’s easier for the deer to get it than the humans.

    Sorry for the rant. I don’t usually un-lurk, but this is a hot button issue for me.

  29. Narya

    “But even so, consuming meat at all is kind of a sticky issue in radical feminist thought.”

    That may well be, though it is an arguable point. However, the original argument in the post, I thought (perhaps mistakenly), was, as featherbed was noting, in the form “all hunters are drunken fuckwads who leave trash behind them and who only hunt deer because they can’t hunt their wives.” Featherbed pointed out, and I agree, that there are many people who are hunters and who do not fit that description (and, in some places, some of the hunters are women). If you want to argue that all hunters are drunken assholes, fine, you can make that argument, and at least some of us here will disagree. If you want to argue that all meat-eating is wrong, again, you can make that argument (and some will disagree, if I remember an endless comment thread from a few months ago). But they’re separate arguments, i.e., the argument that hunting is bad because all hunters are violent assholes isn’t the same as the argument that hunting is bad because all meat-eating is bad.

    You argued, a couple of posts ago, that we’re all unavoidably complicit. Does your vegetarianism somehow make you less complicit? Are there kinds and levels of complicity? (And I”m not trying to challenge you to a duel or to play Gotcha! here, I’m curious how you see this working itself out. Even when I don’t agree with you, I appreciate the thought you put into your analyses. And I have no idea whether I’d agree with your analysis of this.)

  30. virago

    I’m from a family of deerhunters, and I never did like the practice. Needless to say, I have never hunted myself, and I don’t want to. I still have memories of crying when Bambi’s mother was shot. There was a big buck with big antlers at the end of Bambi that was apparently Bambi’s “father”. Like he came to Bambi’s rescue or something from what I remember. Just another kill the mother so that the father could show how great he is Disney cartoon. Anyway, I also remember a movie from the 70’s called “The Yearling”. It was about a boy who raised an orphan deer only to have to kill the deer at the end (after his mother shot and wounded it) because it was eating the family’s corn. It was another movie where I cried my eye’s out. Just another childhood trauma along with “Old Yeller”. Does anyone remember “The Yearling”? I could never watch it again because I remember being really uset. I can’t stand the thought of deerhunting either. Just a bunch of patriarchal bullshit.

  31. Dawn Coyote

    I love the way this conservation effort is conceived—as community economic development, focused on the people and their livelihood rather than simply (and unsustainably) on the animals. I worked in CED for awhile, and it’s the sanest approach for changing the world that I’ve ever come across.

    Plus, snow leopards are purty, and they have those giant paws, just like my Sweet Pea.

  32. speedbudget

    Wow. Baiting, eh? Very illegal here, too. Why don’t they just do what Cheney and Palin do and go on canned hunts? You don’t even have to wonder if you will get anything then.

    While I agree that there are issues around the eating of meat, I must agree with the poster upthread who pointed out that hunting for the express purpose of actually eating said meat is vastly better than going to the store and buying packaged meat. Also, think what you will, conservation is the name of the game, especially in northern states. Because of the expansion of the suburbs into exurbs and beyond, the deer habitat (which consists of edge of forests into grassland. Sound like a development? I thought so) has expanded but the foodstuffs has disappeared. They will and do starve slowly over the winter. So if you’re going to eat the venison (which is much better for you than any other red meat), I see it as a moral balance.

    What you were describing is a crime against all that is right in the world. I heartily agree with you there.

  33. featherbed

    “Oh dear. Texas isn’t in the south, hon. It’s in Texas.”? To us Inuit (and Dene, and Cree, not to mention the white folks in our town) Texas is south. Funny how Americans can’t seem to grasp that their are real live countries with real live people outside of the U.S. borders. Also, if you are going to patronize me, at least read my message first. I expressly stated that I was talking about what urban academics like to call “subsistence hunting”, NOT sport hunting.

    So us folks north of the 60th are politically and ethically inferior when we live off the land? Would we meet you lofty standard if we would only agree to fly in several tonnes of tempeh each month?

    From our perspective, urban and suburban types, who are at a complete loss to describe the journey that their food took to reach the kitchenette set, discussing the ethics of food production is akin to a bunch of monks discussing female sexuality.

    I have to say that I do love how city folks online who generally assume that I am white and american will patronize and dismiss me on the issue of hunting and land usage. Then, when I let them know I’m aboriginal, all of a sudden I’m the noble savage.

    I came to this blog site because I identify strongly with many of the ideas expressed, but MY radical feminism has the capacity to embrace diversity while yours, disappointingly, seems to hinge on condemning and mocking anyone who has a differing perspective. Self examination? Who needs it when you can shit on all of those inferior feminists out there.

  34. featherbed


    This short article (BBC News, April 08) is an example of contemporary urban sensibility and its complete disconnect from “nature”.

    Note the language:
    “Shock at polar bear’s carp kill”; “there is speculation that hand-reared Knut killed the carp just for fun”; “senselessly murdered the carp”…

    Worst of all, the bear killed the fish in FRONT of visitors! OMG! Apparently Knut, through the benefit of being raised by morally superior humans, was supposed to be a vegetarian!

  35. tinfoile hattie

    I live 10 miles west of DC, so all the woods and green space around us are disappearing to make way for new office buildings and HOT lanes on the Beltway. (HOT lanes are a means by which poor people sit in traffic for hours while the rich among us pay an exorbitant toll, which increases with traffic levels, to sail along in a separate lane set aside for them. Oh, and you can also use the HOT lanes if you have three or more people in your car.)

    But I digress.

    Deer and coyote and even a fox wander around our neighborhood, a mid-50s, woodsy development with decent-sized plots of land (1/4 to 1/2 acre). My neighbor once took a photo of three deer in our yard who were happily grazing on the tulips. I didn’t mind. We had enjoyed the beauty of the tulips already, so if the deer wanted them, they could have ’em. I was just mad that I wasn’t home to see such a marvelous spectacle.

    Of course, a day later, there was a deer carcass splayed on the edge of the entrance ramp to the Beltway. There are “too many deer” because they don’t have any place to live anymore.

  36. enviropragmatism

    With all due respect to you, Twisty, and with great love of your writing and ideas, I’m with featherbed here.

    I too have seen the decidedly gruesome process of ungulates killed by predators, and cannot help but feel that a well placed shot (an arrow, in particular — they’re incredibly efficient) is decidedly more humane to the animal.

    This is leaving aside the decidedly grievous impacts on the earth, (including literally countless animals) of simply living in a city, town or suburb. Destruction of the environment is something nearly all of us are complicit in, to some degree, and production of food is high on the list of things we do incredibly wrong.

    While your point about sport hunting is valid, I think it’s more easily criticized on the basis of what it means in our crappy patriarchal culture than for the suffering of the hunted animals (which is quite certainly less than that of most domesticated food animals. I grant, though, that you addressed the scanty justifications of eating meat from a radical feminist perspective. Since it’s related to sustainable agriculture, which is my particular area of interest, I’d also be glad to share the direct impacts upon wildlife, water and people of vegetarianism and veganism within our current superbly fucked up food system).

    In the type of hunting referred to by featherbed, humans just become predators. Deer and are prey for a great many predators, and we are evolved to be omnivores. Furthermore, each natural predator has evolved with advantages like speed, strength, size and subtlety. We evolved an ability to make weapons, which allowed our species to survive. I will grant the questionable merit of most of the uses to which we’ve put this evolutionary boon, but I don’t think subsistence hunting is too far beyond the pale.

    While I have signed on to many of the beliefs here about the only solution being revolution, and even contemplated the difficult task of imagining a human race that sheds culture… imagining a human race that’s independent of an ecosystem is even harder. And by that I mean impossible. We are not unbodied consciousness floating around. We’re made of meat, and eventually and subtly, to meat we shall return. As long as the earth exists.

    This is not to say that the choices we make — especially about what we eat — are unimportant. It’s just to suggest that featherbed’s northern community and its idea of self sufficiency has much less negative impact on the lives of animals, plants and people than the standard nature-removed version.

  37. tinfoile hattie

    P.S. I came back to add: My not minding my tulips being eaten was not supposed to be a judgment on anyone who DOES mind their tulips being eaten, and I’m sorry if it sounds that way. If I were an avid gardener I’d have a different perspective.

  38. HazelStone

    In parts of Minnesota, the deer are severely over-populated. I found this out firsthand when my car was nearly totaled by a deer running onto the freeway.

    If people hunt for food and do so humanely, I’ve got no problem with it. I also think we should be reintroducing their other natural predators for the benefit of the ecosystem.

    As featherbed points out, we are one of their natural predators.

  39. slade

    Plant daffodils….they’re bitter. No one wants to eat a bitter daffodil…not even a mole.

  40. slade

    Forgot to ask: Didn’t Bambi’s mom die in a forest fire? I would cry even at the end of ‘Lassie’ when she would raise her pretty paw.

  41. Jezebella

    Deer are “over-populated” in places where humans have exterminated their natural predators. So, the sport hunters of the world kill all the wolves and mountain lions, and then, o tragedy of tragedies, there are “too many deer” and so the sport hunters must then do the deer the “favor” of culling the herd. Convenient, isn’t it?

    If you don’t want to live with wildlife, don’t move to the country or to a suburb that was, until recently, countryside. Jeez. The wildlife was there first, and do not recognize boundaries, deeds, and the price of imported tulips.

    I am ever so thankful that my parents had the decency to protect me from such cruel and maudlin snuff-films for children as Bambi, The Yearling, and Old Yeller.

  42. thebewilderness

    One of the problems I have with sport hunting to control population argument is that predation by wolves takes the weakest, while predation by hunters takes the strongest. Not a good plan in the long run.

  43. virago

    Well, they have reintroduced wolves in the state I live in, and they are doing pretty well. However, deerhunting is very popular here. The black bear population is doig pretty well also.

  44. virago

    Slade, Bambi’s mom was shot by hunters. There’s the scene where Bambi’s mother tells him to run, a gunshot is heard, and he never sees her again. And than his dad shows up.

  45. Spiders

    Virago I remember The Yearling, but have no recollection of the kid shooting him at the end. Maybe I’ve blocked it out.
    My mother has speculated once or twice about Bambi and me witnessing his mother’s fate maybe being one reason that I’m “The Way I Am”.

    This has certainly been an enlightening thread and I thank featherbed for showing me another perspective.

    Here in Sydney, Australia, the deer “problem” is a bit different. The deer that terrorise drivers in the southern suburbs where I live are not native. They were accidentally introduced years ago by some idiot bloke (just like rabbits who we actually invented a special disease for just to try to get rid of them) and have become a problem for the local native flora and fauna, as well for drivers of cars.

    Now they’re hunted by big tough blokes, oops I mean “culled”, every year and then fed to their natural predators, the Sumatran Tigers who we keep locked up in our zoos.

    How patriarchy can fuck up an eco-system.

    “If the hunters want a real sport, let’s pit them against the deer without all the extra crud. A naked, weaponless hunter versus a pissed-off deer. NOW who’s a big strong manly dood?”

    Ha ha that I’d pay to see!

  46. Rebekka

    Eating meat is non-feminist now?

    I didn’t get the memo.

    While I would agree that shooting things for fun is high on the crapulous scale, I disagree that shooting things to eat them is. Farming practices are largely horrible. If one is going to eat meat, surely eating an animal that’s had a free and natural existence and has been killed with a swift and accurate bullet is preferable to eating something that’s be raised in a tiny pen on an unnatural diet and has been killed, terrified, in a slaughterhouse?

    I would argue that people who buy meat in neatly-packaged plastic containers from the supermarket are bigger arseholes than people who go out and kill their own.

  47. ma'am

    Another voice in support of hunting, that is, by folks who are skilled and careful shooters, many of whom this is their only excuse to enjoy a day in the woods, and then will take the animal home and eat it. Like my late father, my sister, and many folks I grew up with. This does NOT include so-called “sport” hunters and a variety of other gun-toting assholes. But I think the numbers of responsible hunters are probably much greater than the assholes, and I strongly think you should be very careful not to judge all hunters by the same stereotype. Baiting, Horrible!

    Deer can easily become immensely overpopulated, and yes, they do starve slowly and painfully in many parts of this country. This is because of our long history of first exterminating predators and second screwing up the land so that predators can no longer exist. Deer, on the other hand, are commensuals, meaning that they thrive due to the interferences of humans with the natural functioning ecosystem. In some states, Missouri for example, there is now a serious shortage of hunters and a serious overpopulation of deer, which is bad for both deer and people who happen to drive cars.

    And, venison is actually quite good if you know how to prepare it. I have been a vegetarian (ok, I have sort-of regressed now that I eat some seafood again) for over a decade, and if offered some venison during a visit home I will still enjoy a bite. It is lean, it is nearly cruelty-free (because the deer presumably lived a good life), there are no hormones or anti-biotics, and someone was personally and ethically responsible for killing it rather than leaving it up to some poor immigrant in Arkansas.

    Having hopefully thoroughly defended said hunters, I will mention the roots of my sort-of vegetarianism to gross you out. In the fall, visits to north Missouri to hunt deer at my Grandma’s house always involved stringing up the deer, then butchering, then the horrible stench and appearance of chunks of flesh sitting on white freezer paper all over the kitchen and the house.

    Ahh, childhood memories…

  48. ma'am

    Oh yeah, I forgot to address the feminist issue. Probably true to mass-produced meat, definitely not for animals you kill and eat yourself.

  49. slade

    virago…hi! Was there a forest fire in the ‘Bambi’ you saw? I definitely remember this huge fire.

    Do you think that the sadistic Disney changes the way the mother dies for each generation???

    I saw the film in the early ’60’s. My parents had just divorced and losing my mother to a fire totally freaked me out….I would be stuck with a dad who insisted I golf for a living.

    Imagine chasing a tiny white ball around for the rest of your life…

  50. speedbudget

    I want to point out that it’s not only the hunters who kill predatory animals. It’s also the ranchers and the farmers. And the dolts who move out specifically to live in their territory and then are shocked that said predator is there. So they kill ’em.

    As for the Bambi movie, his mother was shot AND there was a fire.

  51. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Well, you can count me on the side of the coyotes, wolves and bears.

    Nature is red in tooth and claw. One of the red-tailed hawks who cruise the thermals over my hood nailed a pigeon and munched down on it in my backyard during our last snowstorm. I was upset at the sight of it, but I understand the need for it.

  52. meerkat

    As for deer overpopulation, in addition to wiping out the predators, we humans also like to feed the animals we want to hunt in order to encourage them to have more babies, so that we can then kill them when they are older. (Plus systematic killing to reduce overpopulation has worked SO WELL on feral cats, especially since we never actively try to get them overpopulated again so we can continue to have fun killing them.)

  53. Dilly

    Oppression is oppression, regardless of species, unless one thinks animals exist for our benefit. Making a distinction between inhumane and humane forms of killing (if one’s base assumption isn’t that all forms of killing are inhumane) or factory farming vs. hunting is splitting hairs to me. It’s still killing. Yes, I guess if I had to decide whether to die by some machine in a slaughterhouse after doing time in a cramped stall up to my knees in my own feces or by gunshot in the wild, I’d pick the latter. But I’d rather not die. Either way, I can’t help but think that imposition upon the life or free will of another is in alignment with patriarchal values. And of course, we’re all guilty.

  54. HazelStone

    “Either way, I can’t help but think that imposition upon the life or free will of another is in alignment with patriarchal values.” -Dilly

    Billions of people subsistence hunting, fishing and trapping call bullshit. As do I.

  55. Bird

    If I’m going to eat meat, which I do because my diet is restricted enough for other reasons, I would far rather it be hunted meat than feedlot, factory-farm produced. In keeping with that, my freezer contains bison, which we bought collectively with a group of friends from a local rancher. Free-range, no antibiotics or hormones. The butchering was done by a local organic producer. There will also be half a deer in there soon because my partner went out hunting with one of his good friends. They were up at five in the morning to go out in the cold and the snow to sit in the woods and wait for a deer. No blinds, no baiting, no camouflage. They shot it, brought it home to friend’s garage, and skinned it themselves. All parts of both animals are being used, from meat to hide to horn. No trophies, no glorification.

    Of all the ways one can eat meat, I think this way is the most ethical. I’d rather eat a local, organic diet, even if that includes meat, than otherwise.

    Sport hunting disgusts me, but I think that there’s a world of difference between a sport hunter and someone who hunts so that they will have a more ethical eating practice than if they bought their meat at the grocery store.

  56. Stripy

    I thought radical feminists considered patriarchy a fact of life in all cultures, whether “noble-savage” or “honky.”

    Last I heard, the idyllic Margaret Mead South Seas egalitarian fantasy had been debunked by those people who care deeply about such things.

    Some people will place racial or multicultural issues ahead of patriarchy-blaming, and while I don’t have a problem with that, I also understand that there’s a tattered fringe left within feminism that puts patriarchy-blaming ahead of even venerating multiculturalism.

    It’s heretical, but it’s principled.

    I really think one of the things that has smothered radical feminism over the last decade or two has been the insistence that feminist issues *always* take a deferent backseat to every other kind of radical or liberal orthodoxy that comes down the pike.


  57. ungrrl

    One thing that it seems we often forget to consider when making animal rights claims that support vegetarianism is the impact that eating a strictly vegetarian diet can have on Earth and all the ecosystems and animals that she holds–clearing land for mass produced, monocultures like Soy reduces the natural habitat that wild beings need to survive, and thus, kills them and reduces their populations. Less habitat means less animals. It may be an indirect harm to animals, but it is still a harm and should not be overlooked. It’s also harmful to animals (us included) to wreak havoc on Earth by transporting food thousands of miles, which so many of us do on a regular basis. I think the best way to eat and live is as locally as possible and on as small a scale as possible, which I recognize is not really that easy most of the time, but is still something we should all strive to do.

  58. metamanda

    How about non-native species introduced for idiotic reasons? Can I oppress some wild boar in California by shooting and eating them, if they are in turn oppressing the oak trees that are vital to the local ecosystem?

    I’m with the people on this thread who defend subsistence hunting. In some cases it supplements the diets of people who really don’t have a lot of cash to spend on grass-fed beef from whole foods. I’m willing to hear an argument against meat-eating in general, but if you’re going to eat it at all, then hunting is more humane, more local, more sustainable than most any supermarket meat you’ll find.

    I’m sure deer would rather not die, but avoiding a bullet doesn’t mean living forever, it means dying some other way, most of which really suck, maybe starvation, maybe by another predator, maybe hit by a car, maybe, if extremely lucky, old age. I’m not claiming here that hunters are doing the deer a favor or anything, but if you’re measuring their cruelty, then measure it against the ambient cruelty of life.

  59. virago

    Slade, I believe there was a forest fire earlier in Bambi, but I do remember his mother being killed at the end by hunters because I was so upset by it. That was the scene that really stuck out for me. I don’t think that Disney changed the end, but I saw the movie in the 70’s so who knows? I haven’t seen it since. Sorry to hear about your mom. I was lucky to get my mom back after my dad kidnapped us in a divorced. I shudder to think how my brother and I would’ve been raised by him.

    Spiders, your lucky you blocked out the end of The Yearling. It sucked. And be glad you never saw Bambi.

  60. virago

    Correction, Spiders I doubt seeing Bambi “made you the way you are.” Your mom should just accept what is and leave it at that. I’ve heard that Austrailia had a lot of problems with non-native species. My state has problems with non native plants that were introduced by Europeans choking out native species. We use to have Buffalo, cougars, and a lot of other species that are gone. The deer are overpopulated here so I reluctantly agree with some posters that it is probably necessary. However, like I said earlier, the reintroduction of wolves is doing well and so it the black bear. Moose and Elk are even making a comeback. I’m glad about that.

  61. Tigs

    “You argued, a couple of posts ago, that we’re all unavoidably complicit. Does your vegetarianism somehow make you less complicit? Are there kinds and levels of complicity?”

    I know you’re talking to Twisty, but I must answer yes, with complexities. Our complicity is our complicity, it is inescapable.
    However, I believe that you can simultaneously work for a better world, with less oppression, violence, and hate. I think that what we do matters, and can make a difference in the world–even outside of ‘THE’ revolution.
    If one therefore were to quantify these things (which I think would be weird and useless), then I think you can move towards balance in your life–even if you’ll never get there.

    I believe it was LMYC many moons ago who referred to this as ‘reducing your patriarchal carbon footprint.’

  62. citywood

    I’m with featherbed here. I’m an urbanite myself, but all you have to do is look up the Inuit diet or the climate/environment in the Arctic to see how meat is a necessity. So shipping in food from the south is better for the environment/society than local food and the knowledge passed down for generations? Diet does depend on location and thinking one way of eating is superior seems imperalistic to me. Also I get the sense that humans think we are superior or seperate from nature/the food chain so we can’t kill to survive like any other animals.

  63. slythwolf

    Food for thought: The deer population wouldn’t need human activity of any kind to keep it in check if these macho assholes’ forbears hadn’t hunted all the large predators to near extinction.

  64. denelian

    i don’t have time to read all the comments at the moment (its nearly 4am) i will probably read them tomorrow – so if i am repeating someone, i’m sorry…

    but the fucked up truth is, despite the fact that the hunter is arguing from a position of deception (he wants to hunt and therefore makes up reason to justify it), deer (and most herbavores) DO need something to regulate their populations. here in columbus, there was no hunting permited and a herd of deer that inhabited a “park” (a large natural preserve). after 5-ish years of the deer being there, they started starving to death. in large droves. because there were no predators left (except humans who weren’t allowed to hunt them)and they just bred and bred and bred. fucked up the park big time, too, through over-grazing, it cost a LARGE amount to fix the damage the deer had caused, and meanwhile the population was reduced by almost 75% through long and painful starvation in something like 2 months.
    in general, my view on hunting is – only kill what you will use, and if you can’t use, don’t do it; and for gawds sake don’t use a submachine gun! use a rifle, sure (bow and arrows are better but anymore they COST more than a rifle or shotgun), etc. it shouldn’t be a sport – when i was a kid, venison was almost HALF of the meat we ate, because we sure couldn’t afford to BUY a lot of it! those deer were quite needful to us… now that i am not poor, i won’t hunt. but if i am ever that poor again, i will.

  65. Narya

    Tigs, I agree, in the sense that I think it behooves all of us to try to reduce our footprints, and to try to reduce our own transmission of patriarchy, as best we can, and from whatever position. (That is, those of us with more privilege/time/money/wiggle-room may well have greater obligations than those of us who are more oppressed/subsisting/poor, etc.) My (friendly) challenge to Twisty has to do with how to understand the claim of patriarchy’s (or capitalism’s, if you want to go that route) totalizing abilities. If the systems really are totalizing, then it is difficult to talk about complicity (I think) in a way that enables individuals to actually DO anything about anything. Thus, a valid response would be: why bother fighting? Why not just go on one’s merry way, with no thought or care?

    OTOH, if we want to argue that there is some wiggle room, that these systems of oppression, while pervasive, are not completely totalizing, then we have some responsibilities to try to live with awareness, responsibility, etc. However, we don’t all live in the same circumstances–cities, rural areas, etc., differ, as do our own resources, both broadly and narrowly understood–and there are multiple paths. What seems to happen often is that people who choose a given path–and choose it thoughtfully, and try in good faith to live ethically–may well be attacked by someone who has chosen (thoughtfully, in good faith) a different path. Which sets us to fighting each other, and which is not, I would argue, a productive fight.

  66. Spigette

    Hey folks,

    I have to say I share featherbed’s point of view… there is life outside of the USA, and in her neck of the woods they have been hunting and living off their land for 10,000 years, and in a society that is probably more matriarchal and woman-positive than yours, thank you very much. The Inuit, like most aboriginal peoples, have a deep respect for the animals they hunt and eat. An Inuit saying I have read – “The great peril of our existence lies in the fact that our diet consists entirely of souls” – shows the reverence they have for the spirits of the animals.

    What would you have them eat? Rice and lentils? Baked eggplant? Melons and fresh fruit? Kraft Dinner and Mr. Noodle? Not a hell of a lot grows north of 60, and flying that stuff in costs a fortune, harms the environment and is contributing to diabetes and obesity.

    I am not a northerner… I grew up in the city in the south (Halifax to be precise – that is the south, eh Featherbed? lol)), but as a “back-to-the-land”-er, I am proud to say that I now grow a lot of my own food, buy locally most of the rest, and do my best to eat hunted or humanely raised and killed meat when I can. We usually get some moose from my DH’s family in Newfoundland when they come over to visit. One moose can feed 2 or more families easily through the winter, and it makes a hell of a Stroganoff, steak dinner or a meat pie.

    Since I choose to eat meat, I would SO much rather eat the kind that was running around happy in the woods eating a natural diet and living the life of Reilly moments before it was humanely shot and killed by someone who knows what they are doing. Better that than eat some poor beast from a factory farm or a feedlot far away who ate goddess-knows-what and was pumped full of chemicals. We are looking forward to getting some nice local lobster this week to support the fishermen and give ourselves a treat. That is the 100 mile diet in action.

    Featherbed’s point that not all hunting is sport hunting, and not all meat eating is abhorrent is well made. By all means choose to be a vegetarian if your conscience and environment make that viable. But those of you who do that should open your minds to the fact that there are other environments and other ethics out there which are just as feminist and legitimate as yours… and who don’t need your stamp of approval.

  67. norbizness

    Laugh if you want, but I personally witnessed a horrifying deer coup d’etat at Canyon Lake last summer. There were places where grass used to be everywhere.

  68. speedbudget

    Slythwolf, while I agree in principal, I disagree, too. Because natural predator or no, we are encroaching on all of these animals’ natural habitat. People moving into areas with predators naturally want to kill said predators. Save the children and all that.

  69. Greenconsciousness

    Thank You Twisty — Best Post in the World. Did you Post your land, No Hunt; No Trespass? Not that they will honor it but you could incorporate as a tax exempt Sanctuary/refuge non-profit and develop a few wet areas for birds. Then you could make improvements with the saved tax money. Then post and investigate the penalties for trespass. The state dept of natural resources is not your friend but the national sanctuary groups might be — a lot of them are hunter front groups though. Be careful.

  70. truffula

    a deep respect for the animals they hunt and eat

    So murder is A-OK as long as you “respect” the person you murder? Care to try that in a court of law? Oh no, of course not, we’re talking about killing “animals” here. Othering is a tried and true foundation for all manner of discrimination. Bravo.

  71. jael

    truffula, you’re sounding like an anti-abortion activist.

    substitute “fetus” for “animals” and you’re there.

  72. Tigs

    Well, honestly, if you believe a fetus is a rights-bearing individual, then that’s a reasonable argument. It isn’t, and it’s fundamentally flawed to say that either a fetus or an animal is the SAME as a human being, but I don’t think that saying that ‘killing something that may have an individual right to exist is problematic’ is an outrageous statement.
    There’s not even a matter of trumping rights– as in, when defending fetus rights, one is automatically sacrificing a woman’s rights. Defending animal rights does not fundamentally sacrifice anyone’s right to self-determination as an individual. When you say that human animals have more of a right to life than some other animal,* you are making a political statement that is open to analysis.

    Traditional hunting practices are surely more ethical, healthy, and uhh, better than factory farming. But the problem isn’t that animal rights folks are demanding that people turn in their bows for styrofoam packaging. Rather our entire food system is unsustainable, cruel, and doesn’t even allow space for discussion of the ethics of animal ‘use,’ a discussion that surely fits within feminist discourse.

    *For the vast majority of those whose diets are heavily comprised of meat, this is not a matter of life anyway. It is a matter of human convenience and desire dominating animal life.

  73. cypress

    I was listening to the radio, the CBC, the other day while driving home. The show was ‘Black Out Loud’ and a comic was doing his routine. He’d already explained he is from St Lucia, and that there were many things about Canadian culture he didn’t understand. I thought i would have to stop the car while I recovered from “my girlfriend has now told me about duck hunting, and how it is a sport. I said to her how can it be a sport when the ducks don’t know it’s happening. That’s like hitting someone hard on the nose with your fist and then saying “we’re boxing, where are your gloves?”

    Also, deer hunting.

  74. jael

    Tigs: it’s not that I had an issue with the content of the argument – it’s quite a reasonable one. It was more a comment on form.

    I do take significant issue with the conflation of “person” and “animal” – both sentient beings certainly; but if that’s the argument, use sentient beings, or “human animals”. I think personhood is a state upon which we confer human rights (those that are not applicable to non human animals).

    That is, however, semantic. Other than that – absolutely, it’s an area where discourse is required.

  75. Dilly

    We certainly can’t blame anyone for resorting to their survival instincts. If all you can find to eat is meat, you’re probably going to have a hard time talking your starving ass out of tossing that rabbit on the fire. For the rest of us who are lucky enough to be able to make decisions about our food sources, well, you might give it more consideration. As regards the conservation argument, I wish an altruistic species higher than us on the food chain would step in and control our population.

  76. octopod

    metamanda raises an excellent point. Wild pigs in Hawaii? Rabbits and housecats in Australia? Goats in the Galapagos? How does this work when it comes to invasive species?

    (Assuming, of course, that they aren’t an invasive species that can be educated into being less invasive. I persist in thinking this is possible for humans, at least.)

  77. Aunti Disestablishmentarian


    Bullseye, as it were.

  78. Amananta

    Well I don’t agree that vegetarianism is “the” radical feminist position. I could also make a big case (and have) for how vegetarianism has, for a few centuries now, been promoted as the moral, feminine, gentle choice and encouraged more for women than for men BY MEN, as part of a larger worldwide pattern where women are so meat and protein starved as compared to men that it is “normal” in every society, even affluent ones such as the US, for women to be iron poor if not outright anemic. In the meantime men are supposed to eat those big juicy steaks because, by god, they need more protein than women for uh… something.
    Starving people of protein makes them docile and easily manipulated. I don’t think it’s an accident that women have so internalized the ethic of not eating the happy cute widdle animals while men basically laugh at us and go about eating a diet that makes them strong. I’m sorry, but we ARE animals, omnivorous animals.
    (None of this, of course, means I don’t have serious problems with the meat industry.)

  79. ElizaN

    Protein doesn’t contain iron, and meat is far from the only source for either of them. As for vegetarianism making people docile, check out the ALF.

  80. Flores

    While you don’t need meat to be strong, it does contain many important nutrients. In the circumstances of scarcity, I imagine the tradition of giving meat to the men harms the health of many women. Even in rich nations, avoiding flesh can occasionally force you to eat the less healthful option. A balanced vegetarian or vegan diets takes some thought and work. I say it’s fully worth the trouble, but I understand why others choose differently.

  81. rootlesscosmo

    Are there kinds and levels of complicity?

    I think so. Example: a year or so ago a woman was raped at a college near here. Two other women intervened, got her out of there, and reported the crime to the authorities. Given that we all live in a rape culture, were those women equally complicit with the rapists, or with the district attorney who decided there wasn’t enough evidence to bring charges? Not as I see things.

  82. saltyC

    Virago, you are right about the Yearling. No one should let a child watch that movie, it has given me shuddering intrusive memories of that final scene my whole life. Horrible, horrible movie. But it wasn’t from the 70’s more like the 40’s.

  83. Kuleana

    Another voice in support of hunting, that is, by folks who are skilled and careful shooters, many of whom this is their only excuse to enjoy a day in the woods,

    Are you kidding? Since when does one need an excuse to go hang out in the woods? In most places I’ve been a hunting permit isn’t the only way to be allowed in the woods — you can go hiking, you can find a nice clearing to read a book, you can have a picnic, if it’s really secluded you can have sex, if there’s a river or lake you can go swimming, you can climb trees, or you can take little rocks and make miniature replicas of Stonehenge (speaking of which, forests also make a great place for pagan rituals!). It’s really sad when we’ve come to a point where we can’t envision enjoying nature without dominating it in some way — it reminds me of the biblical statement that man has dominion over nature. (Hmmmm, “man”….)

    And seriously, even though I can to a point understand subsistence hunting, the bullshit about vegetarianism has to stop. Not all vegetarians eat soy, and if that’s all you’ve got to argue that vegetarianism is bad for the environment, just stop. I don’t remember the last time I ate tofu or drank soy milk, in large part because seitan (mock duck) and actual vegetables and grains make great meals. I also find it hugely offensive when people say that vegetarianism is a cover for eating disorders — people with eating disorders are unfortunately always going to find some way to cover their disorder by using a legitimate dietary restriction or excuse. If it weren’t vegetarianism, it would be food allergies, or a religious conversion. Blaming vegetarianism is going to do shit-all to end eating disorders — dismantling patriarchy, on the other end, will get to the root of the matter right quick.

    I also want to throw things every time I hear this craptastic, absolutely untrue protein excuse trotted out — that myth is itself a product of patriarchy. Beans, nuts and seeds, algae, mock duck and many, many other plant sources all contain protein, and in the U.S. we have a much bigger problem with too much protein in our diets than not enough — in fact, in developed countries protein deficiencies are almost unheard of. I’ve been vegetarian for 14 years — over half my life — and my protein levels are perfect without even being all that careful about what I eat, as are all my other vitamin levels. In reality, everybody should be careful about what they eat, not just vegetarians, just like everybody should take care of their health, not just so-called overweight people because ANYBODY can be unhealthy, regardless of diet, size, etc.

    But to get back to the protein myth — it came about because, as far as I can tell, eating meat is equated with manliness, and protein is also equated with manliness. So, voila! Meat magically becomes THE ONLY source of protein, because of course WOMANLY foods like vegetables couldn’t provide such a MANLY nutrient! People who actually know what they’re talking about with regard to vegetarian diets would actually point out that your biggest deficiency risk is actually vitamin B, which has no non-animal source. Luckily, it can be found in veg-friendly vitamins and fortified foods — but make sure you’re getting the right type! Some types, like those found in spirulina, can actually decrease your vitamin B levels. (Not to say you shouldn’t eat spirulina, just don’t use it as your vitamin B source and up your dosage of other vitamin B sources accordingly.) The Vegetarian Society has more info for anybody who’s interested.

  84. Kuleana

    Oh, I just wanted to mention that only the first paragraph of my comment was directed to the poster I quoted….The other things (soy and protein) were mentioned by a number of people, and I’m simply too lazy to quote a whole bunch of people.

  1. Suspiciously loud bang has suburbia in a flat spin « Subversive Africana

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