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Feb 18 2009

Invasion of the babyists

Oh the commentary that oozes out of the rotting log after a nice abortion post. And by “rotting log” I of course mean “moderation queue.”

The moderation queue is the bin into which the blog software chucks, among others, all comments submitted by first-time commenters, where they await my discerning review. When I am feeling robust, I thumb through them, approving this one, deleting that one, accidentally deleting one I meant to approve (oh well!), copying another one to the file I keep on death threats and then deleting it, etc. *

It turns out that feminism’s outrageous, transgressive obstreperality ticks off a lot of people who sit around building up heads of steam while staring at the Internet. I know this because they all leave incoherent messages on this blog. Last night, upon returning home from livin’ la vida loca, I perceived about 37 of’em enfouling the aforementioned moderation queue, most of which were written by members of the Women’s Shame On You League.

Anti-Blamite Lonni — who, I am sad to say, was e pluribus unum when she pressed the “Blame” button without having first availed herself of the divine enlightenment that awaits all seekers on the FAQ page — expressed her anti-abortion views with a great deal of warmth. Her comment was typical of the species.

Aren’t you glad that your mother didn’t think your were a “blastocyst” and a “parasitic growth” that she had to “suffer” with! Good grief….have you ever looked at the pictures of an aborted baby? No larger than your smallest fingernail, they still show every sign of being a HUMAN(yep, that’s right…a for-real, live HUMAN)being! But, that would be too hard to do wouldn’t it? To think that you are actually killing a baby would sure give a different slant to abortion. Like it or not, a woman may “own” their body but they don’t own what they produce from it. It’s intended to be an individual, not a parasite that is stuck to your womb forever.

And, here’s a thought….if you don’t want to have an “unwanted” pregnancy there is such a thing as birth control and “protection”. Or, here’s a real biggie: don’t mess around until you are ready to carry a child. Until you do that, you are an uber-irresponsible “adult”.

Lonni exhibits the typical unexamined, sloppily punctuated feelings of a well-indoctrinated babyist foot-soldier. Her unsophisticated rhetoric tumbles out in a disorganized jumble of sentimental, misogynist contradictions, all of which boil down to the unstated and unsupported argument that an opportunistic clump of cells is more human than a fully-realized woman.

Am I glad that my mother didn’t think I was a blastocyst and a parasitic growth that she had to suffer through? Well, Lonni, I’m afraid my mother did think that I was a blastocyst and a parasitic growth that she had to suffer through. She still does. But the larger point is that, had she elected to excise the clump of cells that would eventually become the low-status, subhuman spinster aunt you see before you, I would have had no views on the subject either way, for the simple reason that I would not have existed. Neither parasitic growths nor non-existent spinster aunts possess the capacity for opinion.

Perhaps what Lonni really means to ask is whether I think life is worth living. To which I would answer, certainly, if that life is not an oppressed one.

Am I moved by “the pictures of an aborted baby”? Because it is so cute and tiny? And its cute tininess should be all the evidence necessary to rationalize the annexation of my uterus and the subjugation of my person?

No, I am not moved. As several blamers pointed out yesterday, even if you call the body-snatcher a baby, if it is leeching off my personal internal organs, and if having it there displeases me for any reason whatsoever, and the only way to get it out is to kill it, then kill it I will. When another entity appropriates sovereignty over my person, what am I but a slave? As a human being, I object unconditionally to enslavement, for me or for anyone else.

Lonni also suggests, somewhat endearingly, that pregnancy may be avoided by simply declining to “mess around.” While I appreciate Lonni’s sex-ed revelation that that the mystery of life is nearly always predicated by male pronging, it is unreasonable to assume that women, who comprise the sex class, are in a position to opt out of the vocation to which society has subjugated us by default, or even to ensure that birth control is used. Moreover, if we do wanna boink, we should be free to do so without the threat of life-altering, state-imposed punishment looming over us. Why the hell shouldn’t we? Because we aren’t as human as men?

According to Lonni’s reasoning we aren’t. Although she regards all clumps of reproductive matter as “individuals” — by which she means sovereign entities — she must also believe that at some point, after they are brought to term and become female humans, their individuality necessarily evaporates in order for them to assume lives as meatsock slaves. Following this logic, women are really only fully human until we are born.

Lonni and I are in complete agreement on one point: that women don’t own what our bodies eject. There are plenty of bodily effluents over which I would be happy to waive my jurisdiction, after they’re out and away. But — and this is where Lonni and I part ways — until they’re out, they’re mine. Take my used kleenex, my earwax, my excised tumors, but unless I’ve given you the secret password, stay the hell out of my canals.

And for crying out loud, if a kid is what gets ejected, by all means set it free. Don’t shake it or hit it or send it to bed without its supper. Don’t imprison it in a nuclear family or in some bleak concentration camp of a school. Don’t tell it to lose weight or how pretty it looks in makeup. Don’t abuse it with patriarchal myths about appeasing imaginary dude-centric celestial concierges. Don’t force it to marry some asshole in exchange for money. Don’t throw it out on the streets if it’s gay. Don’t expect a goddam thing.

______________________
* Currently I am tinkering with the blog, which means that it is sometimes briefly offline or non-functional, so comments are disappearing left and right. If you are a regular blamer whose comment hasn’t showed up, is not necessary to email me with hurt feelings because you think I’ve banned you for no reason or something. It will all be straightened out in a week or two.

135 comments

4 pings

  1. Donna

    What puzzles me about fetus-worshippers like Lonni is that they want you to be “glad your mother decided to continue the pregnancy”, which implies choice, while simultaneously wanting to eradicate that choice for for all woman. Make up your minds, forced birthers! Either mothers are angels worthy of the highest accolades or they are – as Twisty so eloquently and obstreporously put it – meatsock slaves.

  2. anti-lonni

    It just seemed like you should know about this.

    Urge Topps’ Eisner to keep his sugary nipples away from kids!

    Greetings,

    In late January, The New York Times reported that the Topps candy company has signed the musical group Clique Girlz, a trio of twelve- and fourteen-year-old girls, to help sell Baby Bottle Pop— a powdered candy sold in a miniature baby bottle, eaten by dipping a candy nipple in a sugary powder and licking it off. The Clique Girlz will appear on Baby Bottle Pop packaging and in commercials on Nickelodeon, the Cartoon Network, and Toon Disney.

    Please take a minute to urge Topps co-owner, and former Disney CEO, Michael Eisner to end this advertising deal and join the Council of Better Business Bureau’s Children’s Food and Beverage Advertising Initiative—an industry program which encourages voluntary standards for children’s food advertising. Topps is one of the few major advertisers to children that isn’t a member of the initiative.

  3. arlene

    Dear weeping marmalade on a stick. Lonni is cracked and full of deluded and misplaced anger. Lonni, if you deign to read comments, my body, I owns it, deal with it.

  4. Panic

    Could every one PLEASE stop using “über”? It doesn’t mean what you think it means. ARGH.

  5. Flash

    Pity they don’t teach joined-up thinking in school; it would save us all a lot of time. Lots of people have a hard time thinking about their non-existence, either because they might never have been born, or because they’ll be dead one day. They have a hard time thinking in general.

  6. yttik

    That really is an eloquent and powerful post.

    All entwined in the abortion issue is this underlying theme, do women have the right to defend themselves? For good reason the patriarchy is quite concerned about this. We currently barely have the right to kill in self defense, all those women in prison for killing their abusive husbands are evidence of that. Women still aren’t allowed to be in military combat, even though they keep getting killed in it. And the patriarchy really does not like women who hunt. They’d like to figure out how to ban that one, but it confuses their pro-gun brains. They aren’t too fond of us driving either.

    We really are struggling in this culture for the simple right to defend ourselves. It isn’t really about whether or not abortion is killing something, it’s about what if women started to believe they had the right to kill something in defense of their own lives? This could really present a problem for the patriarchy. They know if women were armed both mentally and physically, we might start to express our intolerance for our oppression.

    I’m not a fan of violence nor am I advocating gun ownership. I’m just saying that in the patriarchy women’s right to defend themselves, even their own uteruses, is constantly watched and monitored to prevent us from “getting any ideas”.

  7. Hollywood Marie

    Twisty, I hope you know how much I love you. If not, let me tell you: I think you are wonderful and insightful and brilliant.

    That being said, as a cultural semite and a teacher, I object to the phrase, “concentration camp of a school.”

    The rest of the post is right on, as always.

  8. Linda Atkins

    This is so funny, particularly the paragraph about your mother. I sent the whole post to my own mother, and then resent just that one paragraph in a separate email, so she’d be sure to notice how hilarious it is. Thank you yet again for many chuckles. Your writing gives me an immense amount of pleasure. Next time you’re in S.F., let’s have lunch!

  9. MJ

    I recently blogged about my abortion experience, and shortly after hitting “publish,” I found in my moderation queue (which is almost always empty, because nobody reads my blog) a comment from a concerned reader who assured me that my post was “a cry for help” and that I probably had “Post-Abortion Syndrome” and should seek help immediately. The condescension disguised as warmth and concern, especially in response to a post where I repeatedly wrote that I do not regret having had an abortion, shocked me even though I probably should have expected it. Is this seriously how they expect to win converts to their ideology? By treating us like children who don’t understand the ramifications of our choices? I knew what I was doing when I walked into that clinic; I didn’t need the protesters outside to tell me.

    It just boggles my mind how many anti-choice nuts seem actually to believe that we think what we do not because we’ve thought carefully about the issue, but because we’re stupid ladies who don’t know what’s good for us. Makes me mad enough to spit.

  10. octopod

    Well, I can guarantee that my mother did indeed think I was a blastocyst. That’s because she had already finished medical school when I was, in fact, a blastocyst, and thus understood that “blastocyst” was a name for a real stage in embryonic development rather than some kind of insulting word for “baby”!

  11. norbizness

    I say it’s Darwinism all over again. Find a snowflake baby about the size of a venomous Hill Country millipede (or, as we persons with one semester of college German like to call them, Übercentipedes) and place them in tiny gladiatorial combat. Winner gets the scorched Earth!

  12. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Would Looni be just as passionately concerned about the gunk the dentist removed during my latest root canal? At the time the dentist yanked it, I can attest to the fact that it was still alive. And the whole procedure caused me a boatload of sorrow, grief and pain. Especially after I got the bill.

    (Mumbling under breath) Begins at conception, ends at birth.

    Bravissima, Commander Faster. You provide ample ammunition for the next time the whole subject rears its ugly head.

  13. Puffin

    That Lonni chose to put the word “protection” in quotation marks speaks volumes, despite her egregious misuse of them prior to doing so.

    Because, you know, birth control is all so “reliable.”

  14. TP

    The central assumption of fetus-worshippers about we who refuse to share their delusions is that we like abortions. Many of them change their tunes quick if they need one themselves, or their daughters do, because it was such a trauma for them, and they think it’s easy for the rest of us; just a simple passtime, something best done right after one of our constant sexual dalliances without protection with strangers.

    Abortion is a radical and traumatic procedure for anyone I’ve ever known to have it, and I smell disrespect for the suffering choosing an abortion causes in their efforts to make it even more horrible by constructing hoops to jump through.

    I was reading a biography of Joan Blondell, who was lovable and everything but a world-class man pleaser who married a crazy man who forced her to have seven abortions in her first year of marriage until she came down with peritonitis from a puncture in her uterine wall. He refused to have sex with condoms or diaphragms. Abortion was illegal back then, of course, but what difference does it make?

    I just hope it can be safely said that abortion is always bad, and making it illegal or immoral or even forcing it on women who want to conceive is all part of the same patriarchal crap, and that I for one, want the god-bags to admit for once that I support woman’s ownership of her body not because I think abortion is something inconsequential and fun.

    If the result desired is to decrease abortions, it would be more effective to pass the Twisty Faster Sex-Is-Rape-Unless-Certified-By-The-Woman Law than any kind of legal restriction to abortion devised by the minds of man.

  15. Orange

    Following this logic, women are really only fully human until we are born.—Yeah, that’s it in a nutshell, Twisty. Well put.

    I’m not sure anyone here is going to agree with TP that “abortion is always bad.” It may not be as fun as a picnic in the June sunshine, but I’m thinking the emotional trauma that may accrue is less than with carrying through an unwanted pregnancy and going through unwanted childbirth, which is a much more involved process than surgical abortion.

    I want to live where Lonni lives, where no woman faces the danger of rape (or where her rapist is responsible enough to use effective contraception, because they’re probably all nice guys who are just misunderstood, right?).

  16. Spiders

    The thing that shits me to tears about the Lonnis is their willingness to over-look things like war and genocide, which must make up the majority of all the killing done on this planet, and is always perpetrated by men who don’t give a crap about the cuteness of babies and children.

  17. RebelRebel

    Procreation is a biological process, not a miracle from god.

    Producing a fetus is not the apex of female existence.

    Abortion is a medical procedure like any other.

    For those who think differently, IBTP.

  18. Donna

    The thing that shits me to tears about the Lonnis is their willingness to over-look things like war and genocide, which must make up the majority of all the killing done on this planet, and is always perpetrated by men who don’t give a crap about the cuteness of babies and children.

    But since Lonni believes that human life begins at conception she should really be chagrined by the carnage of spontaneous abortions. God is the most callous butcher of them all, the way He allows up to 50% of all pregnancies to die an ignoble death down the toilet on on a maxi pad.

  19. Interrobang

    I’ve been waiting for someone else to spew out that “Aren’t you glad your mother didn’t abort you?” argument. Really, I have. As far as I can tell, my mother was coerced (by the state and the culture) into having me, and it keeps me up at night. I like tapdancing on their microcephalies. I want to ask all those “Aren’t you glad…” folks if they have so little compassion for their own mothers that they should be glad their mothers underwent a gruelling physical ordeal at the compulsion of the state? What’s the matter, Lonni, you hate your own mother so much that you’d like to see that happen to her?

    (Tell you what, Lonni, before we let you have a kid, you have to run a marathon at gunpoint. What’s that? That’s not fair? Well, yes…)

    They also never seem to realise that maybe the adoptees they so cherish will grow up, realise what happened to their mothers, and think, “You did what to my mother?!” Realising that made me somehow primally protective; it was the closest I’ve ever come to becoming a clinic-shooter-shooter…

    Then again, I am not one of these nice lefties.

  20. Lauren O

    I mean, I guess I’m glad my mom chose to have me, because I like my life and stuff, but the fact that I exist means infinite other combinations of my mother’s and father’s DNA don’t exist. We don’t feel sorry for those jillions of possible people because they never existed. I fail to see how something smaller than a fingernail – even if it is vaguely human-shaped – can be said to have existed in any meaningful way. It doesn’t have memories. It hasn’t interacted with anyone. It doesn’t fear death, because it doesn’t fear anything. It doesn’t feel anything; it won’t be sad to die. When you think about it, it has less life than the ants you squash in your kitchen; they panic when their comrades fall, at least. And the ants are only taking a bit of your food – not massive amounts of biological, financial, and emotional resources.

    A fetus has the potential to become a person, but so do infinite combinations of egg and sperm. If you have a child today because you were forced to do so because you couldn’t get an abortion, aren’t you “killing” the unique personhood of the child you planned to have six years down the road, which you now will not have? Or are you just supposed to have every possible baby ever? Freeze every single sperm of every sexual partner you ever have and fertilize one of your eggs with each sperm until you run out of eggs? Have funerals and burials for the ones that don’t take, even though they’re just like the millions of fertilized eggs that women pass during their periods without ever even knowing they were pregnant?

  21. ivyleaves

    Well, Lonni, I’m afraid my mother did think that I was a blastocyst and a parasitic growth that she had to suffer through. She still does.

    Followed by laughter explosion. Thanks, Twisty.

  22. mir

    TP: Abortion is a radical and traumatic procedure for anyone I’ve ever known to have it, and I smell disrespect for the suffering choosing an abortion causes in their efforts to make it even more horrible by constructing hoops to jump through.

    Twasn’t radical, nor traumatic, for me. Nor for lots and lots (and lots) of women, I’d wager. Let’s not fall into “all abortion is sad/tragic” , because it’s just not.

    “I just hope it can be safely said that abortion is always bad..”

    No, it can’t be said. Safely or otherwise. Abortion just IS. It’s a thing (like knee surgery, yes, or a velvet ottoman, or a game of gin rummy) – value-neutral until people get their personal beliefs and feelings and religion and politics all over it.

  23. kate

    Man oh man – Twisty you are on a brilliant roll – have i told you lately that i ADORE you? Well, i DO! And if you are ever in Portland Oregon – i would love to take you to (or make you) dinner! Anything you want!
    p.s.
    go to http://www.northbankartistsgallery.com and look at my latest installation called ‘pussy’ – a whole lotta of blaming going on with that show!

  24. felicity

    It’s us child- like women picking at bogeys and picking at foetuses, children who need a grown up ‘have a penis’ to write scriptures for us.

    Men fool themselves they are the seed that makes the plant and it’s ‘his’ kid. The mum (owner of one cell plus another, doubled a bit) then problematically chooses whether she does or doesn’t want the hugest weight on her life. A woman is blugeoned for wanting a career outside of the domestic once she’s ‘done her bit’ and had children, if these children become enforced, the patriarchy forces what it has planned to be a rewardless life if you don’t want kids in the first place. One thing to make the life of a mother a guilt trip, another to force that guilt trip. Mother only has a slither of an excuse of self to look after. She’s laughable and disgusting. After missing a period or two women become subject to a hoard of patriarchal bone- heads on motherhood, as disgraces to it. Gaining the guilty status before it begins, we have to care to back- breaking point about blastocysts and become disgusting if we don’t.

  25. Lara

    Inspired by both Antoinette and Twisty, I am putting the quote “A woman’s humanity begins at conception and ends at birth.” on my facebook profile :)

  26. slythwolf

    Am I glad that my mother didn’t think I was a blastocyst and a parasitic growth that she had to suffer through? Well, Lonni, I’m afraid my mother did think that I was a blastocyst and a parasitic growth that she had to suffer through. She still does. But the larger point is that, had she elected to excise the clump of cells that would eventually become the low-status, subhuman spinster aunt you see before you, I would have had no views on the subject either way, for the simple reason that I would not have existed. Neither parasitic growths nor non-existent spinster aunts possess the capacity for opinion.

    Thank you. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? I think they want you to say, “Oh, gee, I guess if my mother had aborted me, I’d be dead!” But A) you wouldn’t be dead, because you would never have been alive and B) even if you were dead, you would hardly be in a position to care about it, considering you would no longer exist.

    But no, of course, I’m wrong, all the little aborted baybeeeeeez are up in Heaven right now looking down on us and judging us, I’m sure.

    And as others have said, I’m sure my mother did think I was a blastocyst–in fact, she knew it–because my mother was a registered nurse.

    (I love how Firefox doesn’t think “blastocyst” is a word. It didn’t think “vaginas” was a word yesterday.)

  27. Leesee

    Chigado! I we don’t have agency over our own bodies we are nothing more than livestock.
    Getting pregnant is turning your life over to another human being, sure it may be a choice but it is always a sacrifice, if it isn’t you’re doing it wrong.
    I’m still trying to recover emotionally and economically decades later. Even if you love it it’s still the hardest thing you will ever do.

  28. truffula

    I just hope it can be safely said that abortion is always bad

    No, this cannot be safely said, for saying so casts moral judgement on women who choose to have abortions. Also, it is a false statement.

  29. Claire (CJ)

    I’ve said it before, we all have, but it bears repeating :

    Lonni, and all those who agree with her, can officially kiss the collective ass of every woman on the planet who wants/needs an abortion until such time that they are both willing and able to provide for every. single. child. borne of their woman-hating, nonsensical, cult-ish, ridiculous, mindless, fetus-worshiping ideology.

    Even then, if a woman rightfully doesn’t want to be bothered with pregnancy and childbirth, why the fuck should she have to be? What the fuck right does anyone anywhere have to force that on her? Or any child? Who in their right mind can claim to be child-loving, or anyone or anything-loving, when they torture and torment and shame and guilt and force women into bearing unwanted children, who must then live with the knowledge that they were born under the most extreme prejudice and duress? What possible good can ever come of that, except maybe some fundie gets a chance to feel smug?

    As an unwanted child myself, I can say without hesitation that I’d rather have been aborted, than be born to parents who made me pay for being born every second of my life, and who would still be doing so if I hadn’t fled the jurisdiction.

    Can’t raise all the unwanted babies Lonni et all? Won’t raise the unwanted babies Lonnie et al? Don’t think you should have to raise the unwanted babies Lonnie et al, because all of us worthless sluts should be ‘taking responsibility’? Then fuck you. You have no say in the reproductive process of anyone not you. You have no right to force women to bear children they neither want nor can afford, nor wish to provide others with. You have no business, ever, trying to permanently alter the lives of those you don’t know because you have deluded yourself into thinking you are some kind of all-knowing moral authority, or that your fantastical beliefs have some sort of basis in reality, and that the tenants thereof should be applied to the whole of society because it would make you feel so fucking special.

    Want babies? Like babies? Can’t get enough babies? Think your sole purpose in life is to shit out babies? Have them your motherfucking SELF. Knock yourself out. We won’t stop you. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

    If you gave one iota of a shit about children, you would never force their mothers to give birth to them. You do not understand the raging hell you are unleashing on not only the women you do this to, but the extremely unfortunate children borne of these situations. If you need details, just ask me, either of my siblings, or one of a hundred other people I’ve met, or the millions of others in the world that were severely abused by their parents as children…because their parents either didn’t want them, or for one of a hundred million reasons couldn’t raise them.

    How about providing some fucking support for the women who have ALREADY been forced/coerced into parenthood by your self-serving, backwards, pompous propaganda and lies, you demented freaks? Since you claim to care so much about their fucking kids and all, it would seem to follow that you’d help their mothers take care of them. You know, the ones who can’t pay their bills, can’t feed their kids, can’t get jobs, are treated like parasitic lepers and the ultimate losers by their ‘friends’ and peers, in addition to those of you, the ones you forced to have children they didn’t want/couldn’t raise in the first place?

    I’m sure the millions of children born to these parents, living in abject poverty and/or unbearably abusive environments, would dearly love to meet you and thank you for forcing their mothers to give birth to them. I, for one, would give just about anything to show you all just. how. much. it’s meant to me.

    Seriously, from the deepest place within me, FUCK. YOU.

    And of course I own anything and everything attached to or inside my body that can’t survive on it’s own, you raging lunatics. Is there any other way to see it, that doesn’t somehow incorporate your made-up deity, and/or your self-absorbed, privileged snobbery? No? Then fuck you.

    I so wish these people would grow a brain, get a life, or at least keep to themselves and stop tormenting the rest of us with their superstitious, bigoted bullshit. Oh what an infinitely more peaceful planet/society this would be.

    Not holding my breath, of course.

  30. muchell (mesaventure)

    I like to think of the issue analogously, though I know this, too, can be problematic. Imagine two scientists; one visits the other’s laboratory and proposes that they combine the two chemicals they are working with independently (or perhaps sabotages the first scientist’s experiment by doing this without asking). No one knows what the results will be, but if it goes poorly and grows bubbly and odorous, or the first scientist changes her mind about the experiment, or decides to shut it down to resume it later once they have better equipment, would Lonni and her forced-birth committee think it unconscionable for the scientist to clean up her own fucking laboratory?

    Anyhow, I can confirm some of the excellent upthread blaming about how the fundies’ disgust with abortion is really about control of women–I was one in my youth and that was my exact line of thinking. It didn’t seem fair to me, then, that any woman should have an out for pregnancy because that meant she wouldn’t be paying the consequences for her actions. The revelation that equating “baby/child” to “consequence/punishment” was beyond massively fucked up came later, thankfully.

  31. dr. fantastic

    If you gave one iota of a shit about children, you would never force their mothers to give birth to them.

    That is absolutely true. It isn’t like “ok, gestated, there you go!” The fundies purposely forget about the active process of parenting that is needed to raise children.

    What I can’t believe is that anyone who has ever been pregnant and carrier a child to term would think that this should be forced on another woman.

  32. ElizaN

    Even more than most fetuses, I threatened my mother’s life, as she had to delay major surgery until I was born. Aren’t I glad she did that? Actually, it was a bad idea. She risked orphaning my sister. Yet the fundies would argue that my parasitic existence was more important than my sister having a mother. What a load.

  33. Pockysmama

    I’m breathless, Claire. Fucking. Excellent.

  34. Ry

    What’s always missing from those “Aren’t you glad your mother chose life?” arguments is that for some women it wasn’t a choice and for others the choice was conception, not whether or not to abort.

    It’s just one asinine assumption among many when addressing the issue of abortion and the rights of women to control our own bodies, but it’s such a logical fallacy that it makes my brain hurt every time I see one of those stupid bumper stickers.

  35. Noshoes

    Saw a bumpersticker: “Some Choices Are Wrong.” Referring to guess what. Thought up my own: “Some Choices Are None of Your Fucking Business.”

  36. Kuleana

    Aren’t you glad that your mother didn’t think your were a “blastocyst” and a “parasitic growth” that she had to “suffer” with! Good grief….have you ever looked at the pictures of an aborted baby? No larger than your smallest fingernail, they still show every sign of being a HUMAN(yep, that’s right…a for-real, live HUMAN)being!

    Dude, wait, she just went from blastocyst to aborted fetus like they’re the same thing! Don’t they teach science anymore in schools? But, since she we’re talking about blastocysts, well, if you’ve ever seen a picture of one, they look approximately like chick pea curry. Seriously. I did a training at work that had a picture of a blastocyst, and I saved it on my computer because I was so amused by the curry resemblance. Given my massive Indian food habit, telling me a blastocyst is so cute is not a good way to gain my sympathy, unless your goal is to get me to eat said blastocyst. (And, NO, fundies, a stomach is not the same thing as a uterus, so you STILL haven’t won!)

    It’s intended to be an individual, not a parasite that is stuck to your womb forever.

    Why, the second part is true — it’s not intended to be stuck to my womb forever! That’s why I would abort it!

    Seriously, this life-at-all-costs bullshit has got to stop. The goal of our society should be to have a goodlife, not to have a life. And the more unwanted lives you have out there, the worse things will get for everyone until NONE of us enjoy our lives, and then, damn, we’ll all choose abortion because there will be no resources left to support children! Seriously, have fundies ever thought about that? If EVERY SINGLE fertilized egg in the history of humanity had been born, our race would be over. Kaput, done, nada, zilch. I also like how they assume, because they were presumably wanted, that every life will turn out as great as theirs supposedly has, never stopping to think that maybe their life was so fucking great because their mother wanted them, that if you were an unwanted child, things might be a whole hell of a lot different, as Claire explained.

    Also, I keep thinking about how the word “über” sounds without umlauts, the way our precious widdle anti-blamer wrote it. Uber rubber blubber scrubber snubber flubber….

  37. ma'am

    Where I live we have this wingnut legislator who has proposed a bill to give death certificates to the mother of aborted fetuses. You know, the ones that don’t have a fucking BIRTH certificate.

  38. Lauren O

    Not to mention that the world is fucking overpopulated enough. Abort some fetuses that can’t feel or think now…or ensure the death of the entire human race by fucking up our planet irreversibly? Who’s pro-life now?

  39. Courtney

    I used to have a bumpersticker (one among many) that said, “If you can’t feed ‘em, don’t breed ‘em.” Wasn’t too popular, though. Now I have a locavore one…

  40. Sara

    You know, I think that a long long time ago, back when I was a young and less enlightened person, I once made an argument something along the lines of Lonni’s. I’m embarrassed and a bit horrified to realize now just how narrow a world view I had at that point. My goodness.

    My line of work now has me in contact with very premature babies; one of them I met recently was born to a mother who couldn’t afford an abortion in time. As I stood there lamenting the state of the world in which a poor woman could be forced by the medical system to have this child who, as fate would have it, will likely have very many medical problems from being born so early, I realized I have more or less come full circle on my views on abortion. She didn’t want him to begin with. Now she’s stuck with a child with life-long illness. That sort of thing changes a person’s life radically – they become a slave to that child’s needs, for as long as that kid is still alive. We’re talking daily medication, etc. – far beyond “normal” parenting responsibilities.
    If health were seen as a right and not a privilege, if abortion were available without cost or delay, this world would be a better place for those very babies that Lonni is so worried about. There truly are some kids who would have been better off unborn.

  41. Digger

    This needs to be re-repeated:

    “Following this logic, women are really only fully human until we are born.”

  42. Pinko Punko

    The “mom aborting you” gambit I always find wryly amusing because to the unhoned mind that seems to mean that if you aren’t glad of that contrary-to-fact, then somehow you will instantaneously wink out of existence in an exquisitely Twilight-Zoney and self-aware fashion, like being slowly dissolved in some lava or something.

  43. zooeyibz

    And for crying out loud, if a kid is what gets ejected, by all means set it free. Don’t shake it or hit it or send it to bed without its supper. Don’t imprison it in a nuclear family or in some bleak concentration camp of a school. Don’t tell it to lose weight or how pretty it looks in makeup. Don’t abuse it with patriarchal myths about appeasing imaginary dude-centric celestial concierges. Don’t force it to marry some asshole in exchange for money. Don’t throw it out on the streets if it’s gay. Don’t expect a goddam thing.

    Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. It puts my head in a spin that the same foetus loving Jesus-freaks who want ALL BABIES TO LIVE are the same ones who believe that children are their personal fucking property to be knocked around, emotionally tormented and forced to obey every parental whim because God ordained the patriarchy.
    My dad was one of ‘em and never missed an opportunity to remind me that being a female child made me doubly worthless and doubly his property to treat as he liked. Cheers, Jesus.

  44. terristrange

    Lauren I have to disagree with you about the world being overpopulated. From what I understand 70,000 children die every day from starvation yet we produce enough food to feed everyone 3000-4000 calories a day.
    I don’t think this is possible under capitalism but i do know it is possible. We could have lives that have a level of quality to them that surpasses anything seen in the first world today and still not be a drain on the planet’s resources or a threat to the environment.
    The enemy is profit.

    I think the example of starving children dying every day really highlights the hypocrisy of the right-wing. They want women in the imperialist nations to have children because it comes at the cost of education and activism. This creates a docile populace. Yet, in the colonized nations they actively perform forced sterilizations (oh wait they do that in the US too!) because women giving birth makes them less docile and less easy to exploit.

    I also really dislike this moralizing of abortion. It isn’t good or bad, it just is. Should we strive to create a society where motherhood is not a burdensome loathesome task? A society where raising children is a communal task and help is not asked for because it is part of the framework of society? Yes, I think we should. However, in such a society there would still be women who would not want to be pregnant and go through the whole ordeal for a myriad of reasons and though I’ve no doubt the number of abortions would be lessened, it wouldn’t matter morally because this isn’t a moral issue.
    Stop bringing the argument down to the “pro-lifer”‘s level. We’ve got science on our side.

  45. Irlandese

    How many men do you see at abortion clinics attempting to body-block the mothers of their “blastocysts” while begging them “don’t do it”?? Uh, none, they’re all too busy shitting bricks of relief and hip-hip-hooraying the fact that they’re off the hook for the next 18 to 21 years while they’re so solicitously making sure the procedure gets done. The ones that actually show up, of course. Blame THEM, Lonni. Spread the luv a little, mmmkay??

  46. Hannah

    As a northern European reader of IBP and other feminist blogs I was long perplexed about this abortion question in the U.S.
    I only came to think of and understand this debate through reading blogs. Before I never really thought of the issue. It (abortion) just seemed like something women want to or need to do sometimes to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. That’s it: their body their business. The whole question of is the blastocyst or embryo a human individual seemed irrelevant. (And still seems now, or rather, now that I’ve come to know and knowingly think about the arguments, it clearly is an irrelevant aspect)
    In my country where abortion is widely accepted as a normal medical procedure, the only argument I’ve sometimes run into is the “rights” (and responsibilities) of the father (to be, possibly). There are stories of the father/boyfriend whatever in some cases pressuring the woman into having an abortion or trying to stop her from going forward with it. (You know: “it’s my blastocyst/baby too”) But this hasn’t grown into a public issue since it is widely recognised that no matter what you cannot force anyone to go through with pregnancy and childbirth against their will.

  47. LJ

    It would be just dandy if Lonni and Co. argued half as loudly (or at all) for universal health care as they do for forcing women to have babies they can’t afford (like Sara’s premature baby). But I’ve found that it’s the Lonnies who scream against “socialism” and such terrible socialist practices like health care for everyone.

  48. Spiders

    “But since Lonni believes that human life begins at conception she should really be chagrined by the carnage of spontaneous abortions. God is the most callous butcher of them all, the way He allows up to 50% of all pregnancies to die an ignoble death down the toilet on on a maxi pad.”
    Excellent point. Maybe The Lonnis should be picketing churches and other club-houses established in the name of the invisible dudebro in the sky.

  49. ma'am

    Gah! In my earlier comment I said “death certificate to the MOTHER of the aborted fetus”. No, one is only a mother if the fetus becomes a person. How this shit creeps into our language.

    While here, I take the opportunity to thank Twisty for the blog, and especially, for the moderation. I can’t imagine the shit she keeps from us.

  50. speedbudget

    I just want to say how glad I am that Claire found this blog. Really. Excellent blaming, and even better writing.

    Also, I just shit out a turd. I am going to love it and hug it and name it George.

  51. Whit

    I laughed until I cried at the end. Still laughing. Brava!

  52. notalady

    “Is this seriously how they expect to win converts to their ideology? By treating us like children who don’t understand the ramifications of our choices?”

    I imagine that have embraced it because they don’t understand such things. So I guess so.

    “I just hope it can be safely said that abortion is always bad”

    No.

    It’s certainly a bad experience for some who would rather not abort, but do so for medical or financial or safety reasons. But most women walk out of our clinic feeling relieved, some even elated. Legalized abortion is an overwhelmingly good thing, because we know what happens when it’s illegal.

  53. goblinbee

    I had no qualms about having an abortion, am one who left the clinic feeling elated, and have had not a moment’s regret, but I also think there are good-faith arguments on both sides of the abortion question. The pro-life people don’t have stupid arguments, they just have different ones.

  54. Silence

    If you really “love babies,” if you’re really concerned about “precious innocent life,” consider this:

    Historically speaking, when women were not able to acquire abortions or adequate childcare, they stepped up to the next best thing: infanticide. Greek children were abandoned on hillsides. The Inuit left unwanted babies in snowbanks. Russian peasant women smothered the babies they couldn’t support. I recall half a dozen or more cases of British maids during the Regency and Victorian eras who strangled children they couldn’t afford to keep. We’ve all heard stories about babies abandoned in dumpsters, haven’t we? And of course it’s always the mothers who are persecuted for such desperate acts, not the fathers who have, in all probability, skipped off to merrily prong another victim.

    Hell, it’s even in the god-lovers’ precious Bible. The Pharaoh’s daughter found Moses in a clump of bullrushes not because Moses’ mother was playing boatsie with him and lost control. She was trying to drown him.

    Awful stuff and far less humane than neatly and surgically removing a tiny clump of cells before it becomes something that can reasonably be called a human life. But if the fundies did succeed in banning all forms of abortion, as they claim is their desire, it’s exactly what would start occurring. And that’s not even going into the social services that would be overrun with unwanted children, the overflowing orphan asylums. Don’t tell me that all these extra babies would find good, loving homes when there are far too many knobs today who “can’t love a child that isn’t their own.” And an equal number who aren’t capable of loving even “their own.”

    If society wants to reduce abortions, then it should make it its business to improve the conditions for the women who might consider bearing them. How about at least two years (paid) off from work while they are pregnant and nursing? How about a government service that sends a person to the mother’s house at least three times a week to help with the cleaning and childcare? How about a meal program? How about we act as if these children and their mother are important, vital members of our society that deserve care and support?

    Oh, wait, how would men benefit from programs like those? Sorry, I forgot the world we’re actually living in there for a moment. Claire, you are a breath of fresh air and a blamer of the highest degree. Keep posting.

  55. estraven

    “abortion is always bad”

    There is one sense in which I agree with this statement, namely: if a woman doesn’t want to have children, it’s better for her health not to get pregnant than to have an abortion. It also saves time and money. If we could have no-failure contraceptives, I would be extatic.

    If we could also get rid of all abortions due to maternal/fetal health reasons (as in: having all pregnant women totally healthy, and all feti totally healthy as well), well that would be absolutely fabulous.

    In the meantime, abortion is a Very Good Thing.

  56. yttik

    Good point, Silence. There’s a rather atrocious story locally involving a 15 yr old rape victim now charged with murder for doing just that.

    The story triggers a lot of rage in me, towards all the adults who totally failed her in every way imaginable. Why is rape, child abuse, desperate infanticide, and the psychological horrors inflicted on this girl, not considered moral issues?

  57. Claire (CJ)

    Can I crawl inside this webpage, Twisty? I promise not to take up too much RAM. I *heart* IBTP, and every single blaming blamer.

    Site-wide love and hugs to you all, and to Twisty for creating a safe harbor of blamery/sanity in one seriously dicked world.

  58. frycek

    I always found the “in cases of rape” exclusions to anti-abortion efforts somewhat confusing, since they table the entire question of what the ball-of-cells even is, which tends to be Lonni’s favorite argument. I even (in a weak moment of ill-advised charity) thought that, since raped women aren’t a threat to the institution of tribally-owned uteruses, that they might even be shown a little mercy and be allowed to borrow their uteruses for a couple days.

    Then my partner, who has some freaking right-wing relatives, explained to me the actual thought process. It’s not that raped women are allowed to borrow their uteruses; rather, since all rapists are black, then the being implanted in the uterus in question belongs to the enemy non-human tribe, and therefore needs to be killed.

    Then it all made sense to me again.

  59. Danette Baltzer

    In early 1963, a young woman found herself in the awkward position of being “caught”. She was pregnant and it was all too quickly going to be apparent to all that she was a wanton girl (at the barely out of pubescent age of 17 she was hardly a woman). The man/boy came clean -having been raised in a highly religious household where no amount of denial is going to exempt you from the great deity’s wrath- and the pair married. The unmitigated humiliation stayed with them however and they raised their ensuing offspring -the out of wedlocked conceived girlchild and two boys- in the spirit of guilt, shame with an appropriate amount of wormitood thrown in, to which they were accustomed. This upbringing led to a life of servitude and self-loss on the part of the girl that was only further perpetrated by the religious establishment she had been brainwashed with (probably from conception on) and the culture which unquestioningly accepts these patriarchal institutions and meant that her own children were then subject to the same subjugation. The other unfortunate result being that they also learned to take advantage of and for granted the lack of personage that raised them. In her mid forties, said non-person is still trying to extract herself from these entanglements.

    Does she wish her mother had perhaps decided she was too young and wounded to raise a child at the tender age of 17? (It has since been revealed that the mother was not only scorned as a whore for sleeping with the boy but had been sexually molested by her freaking brothers!) Does she wish that CHOICE had been an open and discussed option?

    Yes, I do.

  60. Tina H

    As far as I can tell, my mother was coerced (by the state and the culture) into having me, and it keeps me up at night.

    I would be in the same boat if only Mom hadn’t told me about the time that Grandpa told her that, if she wanted to terminate the pregnancy that resulted in little old me, he would move mountains to make it happen. She, even way back in 1968, was one of the ones who actually had closer to a real choice than many of her sisters-at-arms. Thank you Grandpa!

  61. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    Thank you Twisty AGAIN for distilling the prochoice stance to its essence. I add a little sparkly tiara confetti to this “what part of women’s sovereignty do you not GIT?” blamefest:

    http://jezebel.com/5155353/toddlers–tiaras–living-vicariously-through-your-kids-has-negative-effects?skyline=true&s=x

    PLEASE! Set them ALL FREE! GAH!

  62. Mukherjee

    Twisty and others, you take the words right out of my mouth.
    In my country India there is a trend of selectively aborting female foetuses because of the preference for the all-important male child. I have heard people wondering how feminists would reconcile their pro-choice attitudes with this kind of injustice. What they don’t seem to realise is that this isn’t happening because of the availability of abortion. It is happening because female humans are seen as completely worthless beings in our society. If all abortions were banned in India today, that wouldn’t mean people would suddenly start cherishing their daughters; they would simply wring their necks after they were born, as used to happen in the old days.

  63. beyondviolet

    I was a pro-lifer as a teen because the church my parents foisted on me believed it. But get this extra guilt package: Original sin contaminates all humans until they are baptized. Aborted babies cannot be baptized, and therefore die in a sinful state and GO TO HELL. That’s right. Abortion sends babies to hell.

    When I realized that was too fucked up to be possible, I chucked the church and godbags and started getting my blame on. So, in a way, I’m thankful to ridiculous anti-choice troll logic for helping me become the radfem I am today.

  64. K

    Silence, I don’t disagree with you, but you might want to leave Moses out of it. His mother was trying to save him, not drown him.

  65. swedishfishing

    Twisty and all of the excellent blamers,
    I’m delurking to say that I love you all, and that this post made me laugh so hard after being so sincerely disappointed in the ND news. Thank you for coming up with the funniest and most accurate and accessible explanations of this dudely world we live in.

    And estraven: I agree. Pregnancy scares are awful, and I would love to live in a world where they and abortions don’t exist because pregnancies are always intended and well planned for. So, in that sense, I guess I do see abortion as a necessary evil. Not in a moral sense, of course, but simply because becoming pregnant and terminating it are really scary situations (reasons for which, of course, IBTP) to be in, and in a perfect world no one would have to deal with that at all. But, HELL YES to Twisty’s point: as things exist right now, abortion is so incredibly helpful and definitely a good thing.

  66. Hattie

    What about mothers who have had abortions, like my own mother? To think that the woman who gave me birth is also a woman who “killed her baby.” Why, the mind boggles.

  67. Nolabelfits

    What occurs to me about this is that if this passes the senate then it will effectively outlaw the types of birth control that prevent implantation, and if they are going to consider abortion murder, then it indirectly sorta makes rape a valid procreative strategy for men.

  68. kristin

    “Or are you just supposed to have every possible baby ever?”

    I think that IS the ideal, actually.

    “The pro-life people don’t have stupid arguments, they just have different ones.”

    No, sorry, I’m pretty sure they’re stupid. Or at least hateful and toxic.

  69. buggle

    Just want to second, or third, or fourth- NO, TP, you can NOT safely say that abortion is bad. Abortion is wonderful for a lot of women. This really pisses me off a lot. I think abortion is one of the coolest things ever.

    No dude needs to be telling women that abortion is always bad.

  70. RebelRebel

    The pro-life position is, essentially, that the rights of a fetus trump the rights of a pregnant woman. To make this point, the lifers have to attack from two angles. First (and loudest), they have to inflate the rights of a fetus past what all sense and biology would seem to dictate. Second, they have to diminish the rights of pregnant women, or somehow set them apart as a class that deserves fewer rights than the rest of us. Thus, the rise of the, “She’s a whore who has to accept the consequences of her whorishness,” meme and all of its more socially acceptable phrasings.

    The people spouting this nonsense believe it heart and soul, but that doesn’t make it a good argument. They might also be kind in other respects, but that doesn’t make it less hateful.

  71. Hedgepig

    Hattie said: What about mothers who have had abortions, like my own mother? To think that the woman who gave me birth is also a woman who “killed her baby.”

    Most women who have abortions either already are mothers (and don’t want more children), or are women who will eventually carry a child to term. So the good women who nurture their babies are actually the very same bad women who kill their babies. This is one of those facts the P has enormous trouble coming to terms with.

    Personally I don’t have the slightest problem with it. My mother was 42 when she fell pregnant with me, and, already having two kids, was seriously considering doing a bit of home miscarriage inducement by jumping off the verandah a few times. I am completely comfortable with this fact. Anyone who can’t imagine themselves being a parasitic blob of cells their mother had a perfect right to eject if she so wished suffers from narcissistic personality disorder. (There’s a lot of that about).

  72. Veganrampage

    Suck on this Lonnie, and all you fundies with rotting, festering, congealed lumps of monkey puke for brains-

    From Women On Waves:

    Every year 20 million women resort to unsafe abortion services as a result of which 70.000 women die unnecessarily.

    Only one other person had a problem with “concentration camp” schools?
    While we are being outraged about the wholesale assault and slavery of a group of people we might want to be sensitive about making casual comparisons to another wholesale assault and attempted genocide of another group of a people and perhaps call attention to it when we see it.

    And TP is a dewd.

  73. Spiders

    The Lonnis are just demonstrating the ultimate in patriarchy cheerleading, by hammering home to other women that their status in this world is just that of slave breeder. It’s as much about extracting dude-approval as it is about saving little babies.
    I bet she also picks on women who are “too loud” or not “feminine enough” but the pro-life shit is real a deal clincher if you want to keep your head totally up the arse of patriarchy.
    Lonni, I hope you’re reading all of this. My two kids would be soo much worse off today had I *not* had access to an abortion clinic over the years.
    So please stay the fuck out of my life *and* the lives of my children, whose rights, like mine, trump the rights of cells stuck to my uterus.

    Claire, crikey, that had me in tears. Bloody well said.

  74. Bushfire

    I’m glad my mother is pro-choice.

  75. thebewilderness

    Abortion is neither good nor bad, if you please. It is simply a medical procedure, or spontaneous event, that ends a pregnancy.

    It is considered good by those who do not want to remain pregnant, and bad by those who do want to remain pregnant.

    In the US, four children every day are abused to death.
    When people like Lonnie are ready to put their money where their mouth is on the care and feeding of the post born, I will take their sentiments on the preborn into consideration.

  76. Silence

    K,

    *snort* Moses’s mother was only trying not to drown him if you believe the ‘total faith in god’ crap the Bible sports. Otherwise, there is absolutely no excuse in the damn world for putting a three month old baby in a tiny craft and setting him adrift on the Nile. If a mother today did something similar and said that God had told her to, she’d be put in an institution.

    And add me to the cries of ‘abortion isn’t bad.’ Abortion is a fucking necessity because birth control (outside of sterilization) is not %100 effective.

  77. Lauren O

    Hell, it’s even in the god-lovers’ precious Bible.

    For an even stronger Biblical endorsement of abortion, see Numbers 5:11-31, where God actually commands that unfaithful wives be forced to have abortions. (Obviously you don’t get a choice in the Bible. You’re either forced to have one or…well, there’s nowhere in the Bible where you’re not allowed to have an abortion, but the fundies would have you believe there is.)

  78. Ksiusia

    Too bad we can’t tie in some kind of condition like, “If no abortion is allowed, any man who has impregnated someone has to donate a major organ and is then responsible for the recipient’s care and financial support for the next 18 years.”

  79. Fat Angie

    I really think that there needs to be some sort of consensus on abortion. The fact is, abortion cannot be illegal, because America supposedly has equal rights, and it’s extremely difficult to argue that the fetus does not infringe upon the right of the woman to use of her own organs. Abortion is necessary.

    However, I do think that, for many women, abortion is not a positive thing. In many cases, it’s dewds eschewing parental rights, regardless of the woman’s feelings in the case- ie. when my ex-asshole threatened me and exerted his dewdly power over me if I didn’t abort. Women deserve better than that.

    Women also deserve better than abortion being illegal.

    I hate abortion. I wish nobody ever had to have one. I won’t abandon a friend who chooses one, but it’s not the choice I would make (and I’ve been in that situation more than once, so I’m not talking out my ass). And I think that women deserve better than being the Patriarchy’s sex slaves, either being forced to abort or forced not to abort.

  80. Fat Angie

    I meant responsibilities, not rights. My bad.

  81. dr. fantastic

    Has any blamer ever read anything about what the pro-life movement thinks will actually happen if they repeal Roe vs. Wade? I mean, really happen, like an increase in women’s deaths, or abandoned babies like in Romania when birth control was illegal? I don’t mean this in a snarky way, but as a serious question – does any of their literature address this?

  82. Fat Angie

    I used to frequent far-right sites (I’m a bit of a Devil’s Advocate for either side in my mood), and many pro-lifers believe that overturning Roe V. Wade will cause people to be more stringent with sexual responsibility- whether that be abstinence or birth control (most of the biggest pro-lifers I know are also the biggest supporters of contraception, kind of defying the stereotype really). Others aren’t ashamed of saying that those sluts who get knocked up will get what they deserve. Others say that the power to legalize/illegalize abortion belongs to the individual states, and the voters, not the courts and the federal government.

    In other words, all over the fucking map.

  83. Oaktown Girl

    Has any blamer ever read anything about what the pro-life movement thinks will actually happen if they repeal Roe vs. Wade?

    Yes, the anti-choicers have thought about it, but mostly in political terms, not in the real life human consequence terms you’ve described.

    They know that if abortion really is ever made absolutely illegal (as opposed to just very hard to get), it’s “game over” for them politically, they can’t possibly allow that to happen. It’s just another example of how, at their core, they don’t really give a shit about babies or “the sanctity of life”. They’re all about grandstanding, being in the public eye, and holding sway over politicians and the media discourse.

  84. Hollywood Marie

    Thanks, Veganrampage. I was beginning to think I was alone there for a moment.

  85. Hattie

    But you all are overlooking at important point. There are all those cool baby products that you can buy and consume. How heartbreaking to miss out on that!

  86. Notorious Ph.D.

    This is probably so far down in the thread that no one will read it, but:

    What if, instead of talking about the respective “rights” (a problematic construction, anyway) of the fetus versus the mother, we talked instead about “obligations”? As in: Do I, as a sentient organism, have an obligation to sustain the life of a non-viable organism against my will, until such time as that organism becomes viable?

    And for those who say yes: Does this obligation you perceive apply to any organism other than a pregnant woman?

    (And if the blametariat judges my logic deficient, I plead a late hour and over-the-counter sleep aids.)

  87. Vinaigrette Girl

    I’ve just had ten days of exchange with anti-abortionist wingnuts on the Pro-Life board on FB, and they reckon that the quite ancient fundamental legal right to body sovereignty may apply to the uterus but not to what’s inside it (que? yes, I know); and that although this basic human right would always be used to ensure that the state doesn’t take a pint of blood or a kidney off you (“things would never go that far”) it’s OK for that right to be abrogated to ensure that the blastocyst has its 9-month rental agreement respected in full.

    There is also a huge difference, to them, between being compelled to go through childbirth (because of the “right to life”) and being compelled to give up a kidney (also because of the “right to life”), because someone outside you hasn’t got the same right to your body parts that your DNA-kin has. Because, ultimately, our value as fully-realised human beings is secondary to the potential of the blastocyst.

    Not *one* has ever addressed the issue of, say, orphaning other children so the life-threatening pregnancy of the mother continues until she dies.

    There is a “red envelope day” proposed for the 31st of March, sending empty red envelopes to the White House with a message about “pre-born” babies. I suggest we send other coloured envelopes with a message along the lines of “this envelope represents a womb empty by choice thanks to use of adequately-informed contraception” or equally pro-choice statements.

    I am, incidentally, delighted to have been called a man-imitating feminazi who advocates ripping the life I created from my loins: you BETCHA I am. But now i’m going to go help my child work on his bike-riding because I hate baybeez and want him to go die in traffic more conveniently.

  88. thebewilderness

    Have y’all been to an inner city school lately? The ones with the metal detectors and the guards? The pat searches and the strip searches and the handcuffing of kindergarteners. I realize that it isn’t up to the standards of abuse at Guantanamo Bay, but it is pretty close to the internment camps.
    Do you think that concentration camps were only run by the Germans in WWII. You are a little thin on history, I think.

  89. notalady

    “Abortion is a fucking necessity because birth control (outside of sterilization) is not %100 effective.”

    Silence, I don’t disagree with you, but I really wish we could stop talking about birth control as a way to prevent abortions. Not only because it’s not 100% effective (neither is sterilization, actually), but because many RTLers think contraception IS abortion. Any attempt at keeping our wombs unoccupied is seen as thwarting the lard’s will. Which is further proof that what these people expect from women is moral compliance and physical subjugation.

    If women are lucky enough to have access and the funds to pay for contraception, there are still health professionals who keep it out of our hands and sex partners who will sabotage its use. And I think we all know how effective rape prevention is.

    To the commenter who inquired about the pro-fetusers idea of a future without abortion, they don’t have one. I’ve seen a video on the ‘net recently (don’t remember its origin) where abortion clinic protesters are asked what they think the appropriate legal penalty should be if abortion becomes outlawed. Not one of them answered that they think women who abort should suffer legal consequences. One person actually said that a woman’s personal post-abortion anguish and her eventual eternal confinement in hell would be enough. These are not thinking people. They think logic is what the devil uses to trick you into losing your soul. For that reason, I honestly can’t see an end to this argument any time soon.

  90. Silence

    Actually, I see abortion as birth control. The final stage, if all other attempts not to conceive fail. And I stand by my position that improved birth control results in fewer pregnancies. Everyone is allowed to disagree with me, of course. And it is not all all surprising that RTLers are playing the ‘contraception is abortion’ card. Their game is not the protection of innocent human life, it’s control of women. Denying women access to birth control or, conversely, shaming women into not using birth control by telling them they’re harming an unborn life, is just another tactic in their ongoing struggle to keep women ‘in their place.’

    As I said in an earlier post, an action that would be truly life-affirming would be to give pregnant women what they need in order to birth and raise healthy children — time, money, and support. But the RTLers don’t want to do this because, in their viewpoint, what such legislation would lead to would be a bunch of nasty sluts having child after child out of wedlock and society being forced to support their brats. (And they would use the word brats because most fundies hate children after they’re born, especially if they’re born to single women. Or non-white women.) The lack of any compassion for children who have actually been born and are suffering reveals the hypocrisy of the RTL movement. What they want, pure and simple, is to punish any female that indulges in sexual intercourse outside of the supposed sanctity of marriage. Because if women could have children with little or no male involvement, and not suffer socially or financially for it, well, dear god, what would become of the menfolk? What useful role could they actually play in a society where women were not socially and financially dependent on them merely to exist? Hey, I’m willing to find out. Bring on the revolution!

  91. K

    Silence, just because I can’t let this go, here’s the story as I know it: Pharaoh ordered that all male babies be killed at birth. Moses’s mother managed to keep him from being killed and hid him for the first three months of his life. Then, she made the basket and put him in it in the river slightly upstream from where Pharaoh’s daughter often went to the river. Moses’s older sister watched to see what would happen to the basket & baby, and contrived to get her mother hired as wetnurse to her own baby. God didn’t tell the mother to do anything; she was in a bad situation and figured out a way to minimize the sorrow by putting her son under the protection of one of the few women around who had some influence.

    I’m not insisting that any of this actually *happened*, just that this is the way the story appears in the Bible. I am not a Bible scholar–my authority on this is basically that when I was a child, I had a book of Bible stories and went to Sunday School. All I’m saying is that it is not an example of maternal infanticide of an unwanted baby.

    Writing this has about doubled the total time in my life I have spent thinking about this story.

  92. yttik

    Keeping women dependent financially is another part of the story. When they talk about reducing abortions, nobody’s talking about providing women access to a good income. That’s another reason I’ve been having some fun watching the hysteria over the mother of 8 in Ca. She drops some right wing arguments on their head. She’s done pretty much what the patriarchy wants women to do and now she’d like some money, please, so she can continue living up to their fantasy. But she missed the programming about finding a man to be dependent upon. People are horrified, who’s going to pay for all this?? Well don’t ask me, it’s not my fantasy! Maybe the patriarchy should have considered the expense involved before creating these cartoon like roles for women?

  93. Ana Casian Lakos

    wait.
    did you really just say “imprison them in nuclear families”
    i’m sorry twisty, but what kind of family would you have every child be part of? not a loving home with parents and siblings?

  94. Twisty

    Ana Casian Lakos: “wait. did you really just say “imprison them in nuclear families”i’m sorry twisty, but what kind of family would you have every child be part of? not a loving home with parents and siblings?”

    Ana, I beg you, use the shift key. And punctuation.

    As I have stated 93 times previous, the nuclear family, with its inherent insularity and codependencies, is modern patriarchy’s primary unit of replication. Prior to the industrial revolution it never existed. I suggest raising children in communes where they can enjoy more autonomy and where their contentment is not dependent on appeasing a single set of birth-parents. This scheme would have excellent results for women, too; the stress of 24-hour caregiving would be split among a number of adults.

  95. Tigs

    If anyone were actually interested in preventing a loss of ‘life’, the most logical approach would actually be to fund research on artificial wombs.
    We put people on the moon, it really shouldn’t be that difficult to come up with a nutrient rich, tissue-based bucket (maybe they could use stem-cells–heyy-o!).
    Any woman wanting to get rid of the foreign biological material gets it scraped right into the bucket. That material then becomes a ward of the state. Women keep their bodily autonomy; fundies get the satisfaction of saving babiiieeeeesss.
    Oh wait. I forgot for a minute that this has nothing to do with saving the children.
    Sorry.

  96. Hollywood Marie

    @ thebewilderness, I work at a public high school in Los Angeles and I have for 5 years now. My mother teaches elementary school, also in Los Angeles and has for 3 years now. Are you a teacher? Don’t you DARE tell me what it’s like here.

    Secondly, why doesn’t anyone see that bashing schools is pretty anti-woman considering most teachers are (overwhelmingly) women?

  97. Hollywood Marie

    Sorry for the shoddy punctuation. I was squeezing that comment in between handcuffing kindergarteners.

  98. Tigs

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/25/earlyshow/main690601.shtml
    Handcuffed kindergarteners?
    Like this one?

  99. Moo

    Well, although I think the complaining about characterizing schools as “concentration camps” is getting a little off topic, I’m still going to put my two cents in. Yes, Twisty was using hyperbole to characterize them as concentration camps. But, underneath that I think her point remains that most schools are not ideal places for young, tender humans to grow up in.

    We live in one of the top 5 rated school districts in my state (and my state is rated very high for education as well), yet I would say that the daily life of a school child here can be a pretty grim grind. My teen daughter calls them “factories.” Yes, there are some really great individuals who work in these institutions, but that doesn’t solve some of the problems inherent to this type of institution, nor does it cancel out the effects of the many not so great humans who work or go to school there.

  100. Twisty

    Moo sums it up so I don’t have to. Next!

  101. Hollywood Marie

    Could someone please explain the difference between the hyperbole of calling schools “concentration camps” and calling feminists “feminazis?” I think I missed that somehow.

    I think the bureaucracy of the district is terrible, as is the way we are treated by the government that employs us, and we are poor, and our students come from poor and abusive families, none of which is the school’s fault, but I’d NEVER say I work in a concentration camp. My family (the part that survived) would keel over if they read that. Like I said, as both a Jew and a teacher, that is seriously offensive, and if you can’t see that you need to check your ethnic privilege.

    How is this even being debated? The post states that I, descendents of Holocaust survivors and victims, a Jewish lesbian woman, work in a concentration camp. Fuck that. It was a poor choice of phrase and you all know it.

  102. dr. fantastic

    Thanks to Fat Angie and Oaktown girl for combing through the fundies lit so I don’t have to. Gracias!

  103. Twisty

    “The post states that I, descendents of Holocaust survivors and victims, a Jewish lesbian woman, work in a concentration camp. Fuck that. It was a poor choice of phrase and you all know it.

    I’m sorry you feel that way, Hollywood Marie, but the post says nothing of the kind. I stand by the metaphor. End of tangent.

  104. dr. fantastic

    Knowing Twisty’s stringent policy on well-written posts, please accept my apology for the lack of an apostrophe. “fundies’ lit”

    This drives me crazy when other people do this.

  105. tinfoil hattie

    I’m sorry you feel that way, Hollywood Marie, but the post says nothing of the kind. I stand by the metaphor. End of tangent.

    Hmmm, perhaps a little privilege-checking is called for here? If you, Twisty, as a non-Jew, are not offended by the use of the term “concentration camp” to describe a school, is it then Hollywood Marie’s responsibility not to be offended by it? Is it her responsibility to let a comment like that slide, because you didn’t intend for it to be hurtful?

  106. The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker

    For those of you speculating over what, exactly, would happen if Roe v. Wade were overturned, remember what Roe v. Wade was about: Establishing an “interest” on the part of the FEDERAL government as to the state of your innards at X weeks of gestation. Honestly. The thing needs to be repealed. The Feds have no business in your innards, ever.

    Today the anti-choicers are a fringe group and the prochoicers are largely complacent. Here is what would happen if Roe v. Wade were repealed: 50 states would wake UP and rush to legalize abortion. There might be three or four real battles (Mississippi, Alabama, South Dakota, ?) that the prochoicers would probably win in the end. (Not even hyper-conservative South Dakota will be able to completely outlaw abortion IMHO: Look what happened when it came so close to doing so just a few years ago! Bottom line is that prochoicers are the majority nearly everywhere).

    Each state would be able to decide just how far it went with the details (parental notification, 3rd trimester, etc.). I don’t think availability would decrease; in fact I think it would probably increase in some places. Would women need to cross state lines to get the treatment they need? Probably, but availability being what it is in some states they’re doing it now.

  107. Spiders

    Silence said: “I see abortion as birth control. The final stage, if all other attempts not to conceive fail.”
    But I have the right to evict anything out of my uterus I want regardless of whether or not I attempted to prevent it from attaching itself.
    “an action that would be truly life-affirming would be to give pregnant women what they need in order to birth and raise healthy children — time, money, and support.”
    I would add to that, if they CHOOSE that role for themselves, although I agree that single mothers should get way more support from the state and the community than they do, and they shouldn’t have to go grovelling for it hat in hand, as I do regularly, that has nowt to do with the abortion rights debate.

    About punctuation, we have not all had the same level of education, and I think it’s unfair to shame posters about spelling, grammar and punctuation. They are all patriarchy’s rules, anyway.

  108. Ariann

    K and Silence,
    I agree with K about Moses, it seems quite clear that Moses’s mother was trying to save him from being drowned forcibly rather than drown him herself if the story is read in context. BUT, there is an even better biblical example of attempting to “nature/weather” a child: the story of Hagar leaving Ishmael when she thought he was going to die of dehydration and starvation and then walking away so she wouldn’t hear him cry. The practice of letting children die or trying to kill children you can’t take care of is ancient – because the child couldn’t be cared for and the parent didn’t want to watch the kid die an even worse death or because the child wasn’t wanted in the first place.

    Hedonist Pleasureseeker, I wish I was that hopeful. Perhaps we can simply replace Roe v. Wade with a constitution amendment reading “Women are human beings.”

  109. thebewilderness

    “Don’t you DARE tell me what it’s like here.”

    I hear ya, Marie.
    My having lived it clearly precludes my right to have an opinion on it. I am seriously too old for this shit.

  110. Spiders

    thebewilderness, I am surprised at your comments about schools, given your recent defence of the police force. How does that work?

  111. LCforevah

    Spiders, it’s been a long while since I looked at the statistics, but in the 90′s about 12 million people died from epidemics and famine every year, a large proportion under the age of five. There are no tears shed over this little fact, probably because the Lonnis of this world consider that god’s plan.

    Of course, changing global politics to make distribution of food and medicine isn’t a consideration. Going after American women for having bodily sovereignty is.

  112. Courtney

    ” My teen daughter calls them ‘factories.’”
    Funny you should say that. The first free urban public schools were indeed held IN factories, and the rationale for having the public schools was to train them to be better factory workers. Sadly, there are no factories for the schoolchildren to work in anymore. I can recommend you some books about that, if you like.

    “Pedophelia is rampant in our society.” For those without personal experience, I just read _The Other Side of Desire_ by Daniel Bergner, in which the extent of pedophelia is thoroughly discussed. Highly recommended.

    “Silence, I don’t disagree with you, but I really wish we could stop talking about birth control as a way to prevent abortions. Not only because it’s not 100% effective (neither is sterilization, actually), but because many RTLers think contraception IS abortion.
    ….
    “I see abortion as birth control. The final stage, if all other attempts not to conceive fail

    But I have the right to evict anything out of my uterus I want regardless of whether or not I attempted to prevent it from attaching itself.”

    Isn’t that kind of what birth control is? Eviction from the uterus? Isn’t it irrelevant whether or not it is attached?

    “I suggest raising children in communes where they can enjoy more autonomy and where their contentment is not dependent on appeasing a single set of birth-parents.”

    Would the extended family count as a commune?

    “Secondly, why doesn’t anyone see that bashing schools is pretty anti-woman considering most teachers are (overwhelmingly) women?”

    Because the public schools were designed by a man (Horace Mann) and implemented by men, and are run by men (hence the ratio of males to females in administration). No one was bashing _teachers_, just schools.

  113. thebewilderness

    It’s called reality, spiders. I’m not blind to it.

  114. Spiders

    Courtney-”No one was bashing _teachers_, just schools.”
    True, but I can understand how a dedicated teacher would be offended by me refering to schools as concentration camps, even moreso I imagine, if I happened to be Jewish. Double whammy.
    My experience of highschool wasn’t a happy one, but that was decades ago, and I recognise that there are teachers who make valuable contributions to my kid’s lives.

    thebewilderness, you were very offended by people’s negative comments about cops and the police service based on the fact that you are a cop and a good one, even though some of us have very negative experiences with cops, which are current and not from way back in our childhoods.
    Seemed like a glaring double standard to me, to not recognise that a good teacher would be similarly offended by the comments about schools, particularly when you back it up with “But I went to school so I know.”

  115. Pinko Punko

    I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes, nor do I wish to “reclaim” the expression “concentration camp.” The term is clearly hyperbolic but does not only and exclusively refer to Nazi death camps. I recognize that this is the general connotation, but it really can have a much more generic meaning. That said, relative to a revolutionary environment, I could see where the mass imprinting and shaping of young minds in a regimented or industrial fashion would find an appropriate term in “camp.” Relative to the possible reality of many kids’ existences, it wouldn’t seem like that term would be appropriate. It comes from your point of view.

  116. Spiders

    I think I know what you mean, Pinko. As in, a kid whose environment outside of school is progressive and enlightened about issues of social justice/human rights, might find school too restricting or mainstream, whereas one whose parents are rightwing religious bigots could actually benefit a lot from hearing alternative viewpoints?

  117. thebewilderness

    Spiders,
    You are putting words in my mouth, and motives in my head that I do not own.
    I did not say “But I went to school so I know.”
    Nor did I say the other stuff you say I said. What are you doing, and why are you doing it?

  118. Spiders

    thebewilderness, my apologies, I must have mistaken you for some other thebewilderness.

  119. Silence

    Re abortion/birth control: It is completely irrelevant whether the material is attached to your womb or not. Remember, the argument is not actually about saving innocent lives — we’ve already proved that by pointing out the lack of care RTLers give to actual children once they’ve been born. Therefore, their concern is merely to shame/punish/control women. First they demonize abortion by terming it ‘murder,’ then they try to apply that same terminology to attempts to prevent the egg from being fertilized or implanted in the first place. But it’s all birth control in that it is all an attempt on the part of the woman not to bear a child.

    As for the Moses thing, the truth to tell I only brought it up tongue in cheek to begin with as I consider the Bible to be a rather horrific collection of fairy tales that are, in fact, quite inferior to genuine fairy tales in terms of interesting content and literary value. I didn’t honestly think anyone here cared so much about getting the details of a most-likely apocryphal Bible fantasy absolutely correct, but I stand corrected. My point, however, still stands: mothers used the Nile to drown babies they could not support. Not because they were evil, immoral sluts, but because their children had little hope for a future (thanks to the patriarchy they lived under, no doubt) and decided they were better off dead than living in misery.

    The patriarchy does not care about children, except, perhaps, for the white male offspring of the ‘elite’ white males. Every other child is either fodder for war or a future prong doll.

  120. Twisty

    “Hmmm, perhaps a little privilege-checking is called for here? If you, Twisty, as a non-Jew, are not offended by the use of the term “concentration camp” to describe a school, is it then Hollywood Marie’s responsibility not to be offended by it? Is it her responsibility to let a comment like that slide, because you didn’t intend for it to be hurtful?”

    I will cogitate on this matter and get back to you. You know I’ll cop to it if I done wrong.

  121. tinfoil hattie

    Thanks, Twisty. I raise the point because I am indeed aware that you will cop to the rare occasion on which you may be wrong. To help with your cogitation, I present to you this comment exchange from the “Two posts” post:

    I blog film criticism. I’m thinking of starting a new film blog called The Feminazi Film Critic and review films from a feminist point of view. Whaddya think?

    Twisty
    February 20, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    I endorse the plan, Marilyn, but you could probably come up with a nicer blog title. Since you asked.

    I am not trying to play “gotcha.” I bring this up because I know you are a fair and just privilege-examiner.

    Although I do feel somewhat like I am challenging The Great And Powerful Wizard of Oz. “SILENCE! I’m thinking.”

  122. Hedgepig

    I’m with Pinko Punko on the concentration camp metaphor.

    It’s also fair enough to say that children are imprisoned in nuclear families. Having no choice about leaving or staying = imprisonment. Ditto school.

  123. Ala

    So what does über mean, then? I thought it meant “super” or “ultra” or “hyper.”

    “Good grief….have you ever looked at the pictures of an aborted baby?”

    Yes. I’ve seen pics of them in jars. I’m still pro-choice.

    >>No larger than your smallest fingernail,

    I’ve seen larger ones too. Still pro-choice.

    >>they still show every sign of being a HUMAN(yep, that’s right…a for-real, live HUMAN)being!

    Well, not live, really, since they were aborted, right? So technically they’re dead. And being human doesn’t preclude being parasitical. Half the human population is a parasite of the other half.

    Why are the Lonnis of the world so fixated on the pre-born, anyway? ‘Cause once that kid drops, they drop off the face of the Earth as far as Lonni and her ilk are concerned. I read once that 30 thousand post-born kids die every day. Where is Lonni then? The whole idea seems to be to get that pregnancy to term no matter what, but once the kid is born, whatevah! Let the kid die of starvation, be abused, be sold for sex. No matter. The point is the kid was not aborted! Insanity on wheels. Uber-insanity.

  124. thebewilderness

    Ala,

    uber-

    prefix
    Definition:

    exceptional of his or her kind ( slang )
    uberchef
    ubermodel

    [

  125. Hedgepig

    I am under the impression it means over, above. As in “Deutschland Deutschland uber alles”. Dunno if you’re supposed to use it to mean ‘too much’, as in my pet hate ‘over exaggerate’. What tautological hell that is.
    Not being a German tongue-lover myself it doesn’t bother me when people to use it colloquially to mean super big and scary. Ah, what thorny issues we tackle here at blamer HQ.

  126. thebewilderness

    Half my post was consumed by the post consumer.

    I think the uberpoint was that it is uberused.

  127. Ala

    Ah, now I understand! Yes, “uber” is overused, and I imagine it can be grating if you hear it all the time. I thought that maybe it had the “super” or “hyper” sense in English, as a borrowed word with a somewhat different meaning than the original. I had totally forgotten about the Deutschland uber Alles thing, and I do think it means above there. I can totally see Panic’s point now. As for over exaggerate — that’s a pet peeve of mine too, along with the use of “aggravate” when one means “irritate.”

  128. Digger

    Currently afoot at the Federal level: H.R. 463, the Prevention First Act of 2009. “To expand access to preventive health care services that help reduce unintended pregnancy, reduce abortions, and improve access to women’s health care.”

    I haven’t read the details; what caught my eye was the a.k.a. list:

    – At-Risk Communities Teenage Pregnancy Prevention Act of 2009
    – Compassionate Assistance for Rape Emergencies Act of 2009
    – Emergency Contraception Education Act of 2009
    – Equity in Prescription Insurance and Contraceptive Coverage Act of 2009
    – Responsible Education About Life Act of 2009
    – Title X Family Planning Services Act of 2009
    – Truth in Contraception Act of 2009
    – Unintended Pregnancy Reduction Act of 2009

    What a mess.

    Quicklink to info: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-463

  129. Veganrampage

    I wrote this before Twisty published this post. I see that most of what thought still holds true. I don’t see anyone in the comments accusing Twisty of being anti-Semitic, and I never thought she was. Maybe she got a an email. I call total bullshit on anyone accusing Twisty of being an anti-Semite from that one sentence, total ridiculousness. I never thought this issue nit picking either. It truly distressed me. I hate people who live to correct blogs. As for the “Baroness”, well yer Highnesty, I sure as shit cannot answer your insanity. No one is talking about Gaza, but now that you mention it, for the record, I think it is disgusting and a heinous crime against humanity. Now go write your own blog.

    ‘Oh fuck me, I wish I didn’t have to write this, the timing is bad after the squabble over the FAQs men can comment/not comment post but life sucks then you die so here goes.
    Yes, word are important as this post reiterates and language is constantly used by the patriarchy against women and girls to continue to enslave us, which is why that concentration camp reference, and the mostly silent acquiesce, with a few notable exceptions, by the rest of the commenters here even after Hollywood Marie expressed her distress makes me so angry.

    Why do so many of you only care about an issue if it directly affect you? If something is wrong, it is wrong. You don’t have to be Jewish to find that concentration camp reference offensive, or at least you shouldn’t have to be.

    I am not gay, but I have sat my ass down on Seventh Avenue and risked arrest to protest for gay rights. I am not black but I have marched and protested and given money to civil rights causes, and continue to do so. I have almost gotten killed for telling people to shut their ugly pie holes because that racist/sexist/homophobic “joke” was no joke at all, and civilized people didn’t care to hear it. For that matter I am not Jewish, I am atheist and anti-theist.

    I suggest everyone watch Shoa, a masterwork by Claude Lanzmann, who, as a side note, happened to be a lover of Simone de Beavoir. What’s that you say? A seven hour movie is too long? How much time do you waste in a week watching crappy teevee shows? Or reading inane blogs on the internet? (NOT IBTP) You don’t have to watch all seven hours at once. Shoa focuses on Poland and Auschwitz, and is a good starting point for learning about the Holocaust.( I had call to correct the Holocaust Museum in DC on a glaring error they had in their FAQs, the men in charge wrote me back a very snide email concerning my “question“, but I noticed they took the error down immediately.) Once you have sat through Shoa, I guran-fucking-tee-ya you won’t be taking concentration camp references lightly either. Though technically Auschwitz was a death camp, not a concentration camp, the two are often so conflated as to mean the same thing in modern day American lexicon.

    This is what I hate about homosapiens. Yes, I loathe my own species. We really are a bad animal. In theory, I think we deserve to become extinct and let the earth heal. In practice I have too much goddamn empathy to wish real suffering on anyone*.

    * Excluding rapists, child molesters, the Pope, and all the usual suspects.”

  130. DanetteB

    On the Moses topic: I have attended a conservative baptist seminary (a lifetime ago when I was still tied to the church with the chains only the church can pinion you with), even the conservative baptist Old testament professor I studied under had to admit (to the great chagrin of the less scholarly inclined pastoral and laypeople in the school) that the old testament stories prior to 700 B.C. (King Ahab, et. al.) were unprovable- although he clung to the idea that god would give him evidence of the event’s historicity- at least part of it(he did admit that there was no evidence that the Israelites crossed the desert, but he did want to believe that Abraham existed). But much of the reading I did at this time of OT biblical scholars (jewish and christian) maintained that they were mythology created by the priests and religious leaders to provide a history for the people. Thus it is as silly to say what Moses’s mother was trying to do as it is to conjecture how badly Zeus’s head might have hurt before he finally “gave birth” to Athena.

    However, even if it were vaguely historical, the stories are highly suspect having been written by ancient men LONG after the events would have occurred who also have a motive for changing events to support the religious structures they were incorporating. Thus, no matter what the text tries to imply about what Moses’ mother was trying to do- it is easily portrayed as an act of love and protection after the fact because of course they would want to show how god saved Moses and thus the people- it could also be seen as the act of a woman who is terrified of being caught with her baby and throws him to the elements, not unlike the Celts who put their colicky infants- convinced that they could not be human since they are clearly so miserable– on hilltops so that the fairies would exchange them for the real children they were meant to have. (Mostly they died overnight from overexposure, yet this practice continued for a long time in the Scottish highlands.)

  131. thebewilderness

    “Why do so many of you only care about an issue if it directly affect you?”

    I’m not sure that that is the case here.
    We are not all “modern American”, and so the image raised by the term concentration camp is going to be different. For me, it is the image of the re-education camps, relocation camps, internment centers, the gulag, and the history of incarceration of large populations.
    While I can recognize that the term has a narrower meaning for some people, I have trouble with being expected to privilege the narrow American Lexicon meaning over the historical meaning.

  132. Cactus Wren

    About whether abortion is “bad” or not: would it be sufficient to say that abortion is *unfortunate*? In the same sense, and to the same degree, that mastectomy or hip replacement or root-canal surgery are unfortunate? It’s unfortunate that it’s necessary, but it’s a damn good thing it’s available.

    And as to the “aren’t you glad your mother was pro-life” meme, I’ve run across this (back in my talk.abortion days) expressed as “Thank you, Mommy, for not aborting me!” I liked to point out that “Thank you, Mommy, for not practicing abstinence!” could be just as valid. As could “Thank you, Daddy, for not ‘pulling out’ after you’d promised you would!” Or “Thank you, Daddy, for offering Mommy the options of putting out or walking home!” Or, “Thank you, Grandpa-Daddy, for what you did every night to my Mommy, YOUR DAUGHTER!”

  133. Ron Sullivan

    Why do so many of you only care about an issue if it directly affect you?

    Veganrampage, honey, you don’t know a fleck of sandy loam off the left hind hoof of diddlysquat about “so many” of us and/or what we care about or when. Go on into the bathroom and shut the door and holler at the mirror for a awhile, there ya go.

    Forty years ago or thereabouts I had one of those blinding late-adolescent insights about a bunch of my generally OK male friends and the stuff they used to almost-lecture me about, and how oddly off-the-mark it seemed. The circumstances haven’t changed much since then. The Guys have an odd tendency to lecture us with what they really need to be telling and hearing themselves. (Back then it was, “Don’t take yourself seriously.” When I stopped taking them seriously, my life improved a lot.)

    In short, bucko: Don’t teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

  134. Jezebella

    Oh, Ron. [sigh]. I luff you all the time, but I especially love you when you get yer back up.

    Hugs,
    Jezebella

  135. Silence

    Thank you DanetteB for addressing the (to me) idiotic Moses question so succinctly. I do not consider the Bible a historical text. It is not documented or footnoted. It does not quote sources. It was written with an agenda in mind — it is a piece of propaganda intended to spread its particular brand of faith among the masses. Nothing written in its pages can honestly be said to have happened in any real world sense. Arguing about the motivations of Moses’s mother is about as silly as arguing about Harry Potter’s motivations, except we probably have a better context for Harry Potter. That said, I maintain that a woman who drops an infant in the Nile is trying to rid herself of him.

    And Veganrampage, I intend to watch the Seven Samurai this week. Yep, it’s a patriarchal movie. Fuck, I love it anyway. As a woman, I get enough of people telling me what I should do and criticizing my decisions. They can all go stick it in their ear or any other convenient orifice they choose. I just love how some people seem to think that being a feminist means you have to spend every free hour thinking about/working for The Cause, instead of maybe putting the onus on some of the asshats that could use a little enlightenment. Personally, I don’t have the energy. I’ll pick my own fights and respectfully suggest that others on the forum do the same.

  1. The things that go through my head » Blog Archive » I love Twisty Faster

    [...] She sure can turn a phrase. I just had to bring you this awesome quote which made me really happy to read. Lonni and I are in complete agreement on one point: that women don’t own what our bodies eject. There are plenty of bodily effluents over which I would be happy to waive my jurisdiction, after they’re out and away. But — and this is where Lonni and I part ways — until they’re out, they’re mine. Take my used kleenex, my earwax, my excised tumors, but unless I’ve given you the secret password, stay the hell out of my canals. [...]

  2. Why I <3 Twisty « The Geek Side

    [...] a parasitic growth that she had to suffer through. She still does. — Twisty Faster, “Invasion of the Babyists“ Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Hershey beats estimates in Q4, should you [...]

  3. Children at Risk - Treat the Kids Right « Irresponsibility

    [...] Blame The Patriarchy doyenne Twisty says quite simply and beautifully in her Invasion of the Babyists post what I was trying to express in my earlier post on children at risk: For crying out loud, if a kid [...]

  4. Dreaming of Parenting « The Apostate

    [...] More Twisty abortion blaming, simply because she’s so cool. [...]

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