Mar 26 2009

UK shrinks suffer case of double-barbaria

Lobe been blown yet today? In the UK 17% of psychiatrists surveyed said they “had agreed to help at least one patient ‘reduce’ their gay or lesbian feelings when asked to do so.”

Hey, UK psychiatrists! Enough already with the Dr Frankenstein crap. This “cure” shit is fraying the Twisty neurons.

Many straight people in the US — home of the Jesus-cure boot camp — have already established that godbags have their head up their ass with this fundamentalist brainwashing crap. After decades of protesting and consciousness-raising and Pride parades and we’re-here-we’re-queer, pesky gays have forced straight people to grudgingly accept that homosexuality is not quite a form of insanity. Some straight people even admit that gay people are human, albeit (they are quick to point out with their anti-gay legislation and heteronormative mass media) in a different way than normal people. But the point is, anyone who has bothered to answer the clue phone has had to acknowledge that the Jesus-cures don’t work.

And why should they work? Why should they even exist? The problem is not with being gay. The problem is the aforementioned straight people and their institutionalized homophobia. Homos freak them out, so they want to get rid of the homos. Stupid straight people. It never occurs to them to just stop being freaked out. If they’d simply ditch their neurotic fucked-up social mores, their freak-out lobes would be happily unaffected by homos, and we could all go home and play Scrabble. What doesn’t work is pretending that neurotic, fucked-up social mores are right and natural by inflicting even more neurosis on marginalized individuals. It not only doesn’t work, it’s barbaric.

And if it’s barbaric for godbags to do it, it’s double-barbaric for health professionals to do it. These are people who have supposedly had some exposure to, you know, science.

But, says the BBC report, one in six Brit shrinks has tried to cure homosexuality. And get this: their “intentions” are good. Well, that makes their paternalistic, homophobic delusions all right, then!

Apparently there actually exist whole organizations of well-intentioned sadistic morons whose sole purpose is to “campaign both for an individual’s right to seek treatment and a professional’s right to offer it.” They’ve heard about a study conducted in 2001 by some asshole American shrink saying “Yes, you can force a depressed, disenfranchised Christian queer to switch sexual orientations.”*

So what are these UK “researchers” doing? Because none exist anywhere else, they’re looking for “stories” from India, South America, and China, “where little is known about the prevalence of [‘reparative’ therapy],” that will confirm the efficacy of therapeutic assimilation brainwashing.

There can be little doubt that they will succeed in finding their “stories” in those three well-known hotbeds of tolerance and enlightenment.

Earth. What a rotten place to be gay.

* The shrink was Robert Spitzer. His self-selected sample of reformed homos were all evangelical Christians.


Skip to comment form

  1. JoJoDunc

    Totally agree with the post, Twisty, but want to point out a (very rare) word usage error. Morays are eels that live in coral reefs and have nasty-looking little teeth (see http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/msub5eel/l/blfi_kdragoneel.htm). Mores (pronounced the same way) are accepted and traditional customs through which social control is maintained (also perhaps with some nasty little teeth).

  2. Twisty

    Oh please, that tired old eel argument again?

    I kid!

    Usage error? It’s a full-blown lobe fart! Which is now fixed.

  3. CoolAunt

    Stupid straight people. It never occurs to them to just stop being freaked out.
    It occurred to this stupid straight woman years ago that it’s none of my business what others do in the sack. Contrary to the patriarchy’s teachings, who others have sex with (or not) and how they get their rocks off (or not) is none of my concern. Once I reprogrammed myself and learned to mind my own damned business, I stopped being freaked out around gays and lesbians. I can listen to my gay brother talk about his love relationship(s), talk with my sister about the same sex relationship she had back when she was a teen, have a happy hour drink with lesbian coworkers. I don’t even let it bother me that a friend of a little over four years now is gay (I have excellent gaydar; ironical since I don’t give a damn anyway) but for reasons I don’t know, he’s chosen not to disclose this to me. I figure he’ll tell me when he wants to tell me. Until then, it’s none of my business. For that matter, after he tells me, it still won’t be any of my business.

    If we’d just stop worrying about the sex that others have without us, gays and lesbians wouldn’t blow our simple het minds. It really is that simple.

  4. slade

    Earth isn’t too bad…it’s the damn people who have ruined it for those who with operational thought processes.

    I’ve made a reservation for another planet next time around…I want to try a unisex one. Others have said, ‘Oh, how dull!’ I say, ‘How relaxing.’

    And it goes w/o saying that there will be NO organized religions.

    I can dream.

  5. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Bah. Queer people have been around ever since there’ve been people. Almost everyone would’ve gotten over freaking out about the existence of queer people by now if the derned churches would quit amping up the hate.

    When I was a wee one, we lived kitty-corner from a gay couple. My mom used to always send me over to their house to show them my Easter outfit, which was all kinds of wrong, but they were kind to me anyway. I ate many cookies and drank vast oceans of Hawaiian Punch in their kitchen and watched many episodes of “Dark Shadows” in their rumpus room. I didn’t know from gay at the time, but if a little kid can grasp the concept that they were people not much different from me, I wanna believe everyone’s teachable. I read about stuff like Dr. Frankenweenie and I begin to doubt it.

  6. CoolAunt

    Almost everyone would’ve gotten over freaking out about the existence of queer people by now if the derned churches would quit amping up the hate.
    Eh, the churches have simply been a tool with which the patriarchy spreads and perpetuates hatred and fear of homosexuals. Granted, the churches have been the best and strongest, but they’re still just a conduit for the hatred and fear of homosexuals message. The message originates with het men, their hatred of women, their fear of each other,and their obsession with fucking. Because they think of gay men as woman-like, they hate them. Because they believe all men to be predators, as they’re taught to be under the patriarchy, they also fear gay men. The worst are those who secretly think they might like sex with another man; they hate and fear gay men the most because they hate themselves so much. As for lesbians, they double-hate them, once for being women and again for rejecting all men sexually. The latter is why they fear lesbians, as well. Different topic, but their obsession with lesbian sex is their feeble attempt at trying to conquer their fear of lesbians by somehow dominating them sexually.

    Organized religion and all of the churches could disappear tomorrow but as long as het men continue to hate women and obsess about fucking all of us, too, they’ll keep passing their message of hatred and fear down the generations.

  7. martine

    Please Twisty spare your lobe and your stomach! Don’t read the Daily Mail!

  8. mj

    i would like a doctor to help me increase my homosexuality so that i can stop falling in love with men & embrace the part of me that prefers women.
    is there a doctor for that?

  9. Lu

    I agree with the spirit of the post (using therapy to help people be not-gay is stupid), but I want to add the question, is the fact that these psychologists had done so after _being asked_ to do so a mitigating factor? Because, if someone goes to a therapist and says, “I don’t want to be gay, so please help me with that,” it might be compassion rather than homophobia that’s mostly at work. On the other hand, one would hope that a professional psychologist would be enlightened enough that they would approach the issue in a more constructive and realistic way, instead of letting the patient self-diagnose (“my problem is that I’m gay”) and determine the course of treatment. I realize this is essentially what Twisty says in reporting on the news story, but I felt that the fact that the patients had asked for this treatment themselves was getting lost in the shuffle.

  10. Lu

    Eh, I went back and read the actual news story, and now I think my point is moot. It may not have been the psychiatrists’ idea to “help” them in this way in the first place, but it was bad treatment. I stand corrected (by myself, disconcertingly enough).

  11. Roscoe

    CoolAunt, you have a very good point that often goes understated. The problem with blaming “religion” and the “churches” is that the actual people that are propagating this hate get off the hook. It also gets all tangled up with the religious people, like me, who may get touchy about people bashing their church and beliefs, when the root of the problem, while catalyzed by churches, surely, is hateful people. Not that I want anyone to convert or anything, but the Catholic Church does in fact ask their followers to treat homosexuals like human beings, regardless of whatever sin they have or are committing (’cause after all, we are sinners). Blaming religion is short-sighted and idealistic (in that it’s idealistic to think that one can just change or remove an institution and all of a sudden people will change for the better), particularly when that religion can be used for so much good. Granted, one can still argue about specifics, but that requires more than just saying that religion is dumb.

  12. birkwearingblamer

    Psychiatry has long been a tool of the patriarchy. The psychiatric establishment pathologizes anything that it doesn’t like. They get to define “crazy.”

    Remember the medical diagnosis of “female hysteria?” Ok, I wasn’t there because I’m not that old. I’ve read about it and it was pretty much used to keep the females in line.

    The same with gays and lesbians. I’m sure that many of these shrinks are fine upstanding members of hateful churches.

  13. Rachel

    Hi Lu,

    Your question occurred to me too, at first, but then I thought: if a seriously underweight adult woman came to a psychiatrist and said “I want to be thinner, I want to stop eating. Can you help me with that?” do you think the psychiatrist, out of compassion, should help her achieve her very real desire? What if a patient said, “I don’t like my left arm and I want to get rid of it”?

    Health professionals are *required* to have the mental capacity to critically evaluate every patient request in the context of said patient’s best interest. This should be particularly true for psychiatrists, who by *definition* see patients with mental illness.

    The problem is that these asshat psychiatrists have swallowed the heteroimperative and are only too willing to regurgitate it all over their sick patients.

  14. Nolabelfits

    Antoinette Niebieszczanski.

    I loved “Dark Shadows!” Never missed it. I was in love with the witch Angelique.

  15. gerda

    rachel, funnily enough, if you hate your left arm badly enough, you could indeed get a doctor to cut it off for you, its called dismorphia and is a recognised ‘psychiatric’ complaint.
    i dont think people in the uk go for ‘therapy’ all that much, so i would assume our ‘therapists’ are rather keener for any trade they can get.

    this reminds me of the one time i wanted counselling, at university. i was feeling hate for all men as an inevitable part of my newly freed and blossoming blaming. i wanted techniques for dealing with the hostility of the patriarchy, and the (female, spit!) counsellor tried to tell me it was all in my head! bloody cheek! i didnt go back.

  16. Jonathan


    “If we’d just stop worrying about the sex that others have without us, gays and lesbians wouldn’t blow our simple het minds. It really is that simple.”

    Problem is, that’s the whole point of Patriarchal sex-monitoring.

    If the beds and intimate lives of the repressed weren’t subjected to 24/7 monitoring, then they might just find a safe emotional/personal/communal foundation for their lives. At which point they would be in a good position to start tossing back all the shit the P expects them to put up with (from AIG on down) and they’d rebel.

    The P is better off when the average person focuses their hate on the bedrooms of the repressed, which is about as far away from the boardrooms of the powerful one can go.

  17. Jezebella

    mj, LOL.

    I believe Camp Tequila offers the “increase your homo factor” package.

  18. mj

    jezebella–good one! i wouldn’t mind a long weekend in camp tequila about now.

  19. Twisty

    Roscoe: “[…] the Catholic Church does in fact ask their followers to treat homosexuals like human beings […]”

    Really? Even the female ones? I mean, forgetting for a moment that Catholic doctrine requires homosexuals to live a celibate life lest they make God’s eyes bleed, and that the church loves pedophile priests and rapist stepfathers, there’s no denying that Catholic godbags literally wrote the book on misogyny. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with your church’s stance on birth control and abortion? Or with the incalculable violence proceeding from such barbaric and unsophisticated myths as the virgin birth, the creation of women as an afterthought to do Adam’s laundry, that asshole Lot shoving his daughters off on the angry mob? How about that asshole Aquinas and his whole “women are deformed and misbegotten” dealio? Oy vey.

    The dumbness of religion, for obvious reasons, is not up for debate on this blog.

  20. birkwearingblamer

    Thanks for dealing with that bit of fresh manly wisdom. You rock!

  21. Lu

    Hi, Rachel,

    yes, I saw the light after posting my first comment. Thanks for replying. I hope you’re right that “Health professionals are *required* to have the mental capacity to critically evaluate every patient request in the context of said patient’s best interest,” but it doesn’t seem that requirement is operational in the case of 17% of psychiatrists polled, sadly enough!

  22. Twisty

    Jezebella: “I believe Camp Tequila offers the “increase your homo factor” package.”

    Of course. It’s much easier to convert the straight girls when they’re drunk.

    Seriously, there’s not a dyke alive who hasn’t been macked on by some drunk straight chick at a party.

  23. Notorious Ph.D.

    You know, as patriarchy-blamers we should be utterly unsurprised at this. After all, medical science (and the beauty-industrial complex) has been trying for generations to “cure” us of things that aren’t medical conditions in the first place. And sure, I have a “right to seek treatment” for being female, but that doesn’t make it a real condition. And anyone who asserts a “right to administer treatment” for such an invented condition is a quack at best, and a criminal at worst.

  24. Sabayon

    I feel it necessary to add that while the UK’s National Health Service is paying to counsel away the gays, women can’t get pap smears until they are 25 regardless of sexual activity because of budget cuts. So reparative therapy they can afford, meanwhile women are dying of cervical cancer for having the audacity to have sex before they turn 24. Of course NHS also wastes money on crap like homeopathy and viagra for all before spending it on essential women’s health services and refusing preventative care like pap smears is short-sided economy to say the least, so I’m not saying that if only they weren’t “curing” gays young women wouldn’t have to die of cancer, I’m just saying that there is something seriously wrong with a culture that can find money for well meaning homophobia but not to save women’s lives.

    Also I would like to point out that Antoinette had the greatest childhood ever. I mean, drinking fruit punch and watching drank shadows with the neighborhood ‘mos in your fancy Easter dress, that’s four kinds of awesome.

  25. Sabayon

    Oh my, sorry about my run on sentence of doom. Sometimes the patriarchy makes my brain go all funny.

  26. Twisty

    Notorious: “After all, medical science (and the beauty-industrial complex) has been trying for generations to “cure” us of things that aren’t medical conditions in the first place.”

    Did anyone read about that woman whose non-Beauty2K-compliant appearance was so offensive to the world, and thus so horrific was her life, that she either consented to or convinced some surgeons to give her a fucking face transplant? The surgery was risky and complicated and irreversible.

    “The woman suffered emotionally from being called names and frightening children who ran away when they saw her, Siemionow said in a December news conference when the transplant was announced. Now, she has found inner happiness and confidence with the new face.” [cite]

    It can be argued that the woman had a medical condition — that is, she had no nose and was obliged to breathe through a hole in her throat. But still, if society didn’t require that people with “deformities” and “disfigurements” stay the fuck out of the public square, might she not have given the surgery a miss? It was not required to extend her life.

  27. CassieC

    Dear Overloard and Spinster A. in chief, and other worthy blamers,

    Who needs the daily mail when one has 7 yr old nephews? Who call their 11 yr old brothers “gay” on skype with me? And tell me, their only spinster aunt, that I have a fat ass?

    Must go soothe my lobes with cognac.

    PS: yes, as one does in these cases, following the Twistifarian lil red book of aunt legal code, I responded that I would use my fat ass to sit on them until they had the good sense in their heads not to use “gay” as an insult.

  28. Notorious Ph.D.

    Cassie, that’s the best response ever.

  29. Twisty

    Cassie, I have to say that I never threaten my young relatives with my ass. I keep them drugged with ice cream, so it hasn’t been an issue. Although, a propos of aunting and asses: lately my nieces seem to really enjoy executing the old stealth butt-swat, so that I will turn around and say,”Hey, who swatted my butt?” Evidently this is hilarious, because they fall down laughing, shrieking the word “butt” over and over. They are 3 and 5.

  30. CoolAunt

    Problem is, that’s the whole point of Patriarchal sex-monitoring.

    Right, Jonathan. It was the Patriarchal sex-monitoring that I had to deprogram.

    Seriously, there’s not a dyke alive who hasn’t been macked on by some drunk straight chick at a party.
    That wasn’t me. I only hit on dyke’s at local bars during happy hour, never at parties.

  31. Cathy

    Do these shrinks use the same method of “curing lesbians” as that used in South Africa, as we were discussing the other day? Just wondering.

    the creation of women as an afterthought to do Adam’s laundry,

    I knew there had to be a reason!

  32. slythwolf

    The word “butt” is the height of hilarity from about age 3 to about age 7 at the earliest, Twisty, so I think you’re stuck with that for a while.

  33. humanbein

    Sexual identity, like gender, is a tool for keeping us in our places. A fluid and loving sexual identity that doesn’t rely on sexual obsession to express your love for another person is more appealing to me.

    When I think of all the love I have for people of my own gender that is without a sexual need, I only wish I could feel the same way toward people of the opposite gender, too. I mean I do, but I notice that it is generally frowned on in polite society to be too friendly with other people’s mates. I blame the patriarchy.

  34. admirerofemily

    Re ‘aunting’ – one of the things that drove to me start compiling my ‘best of twisty’ was my two of my nephews (brothers, 12 & 14) forwarding me a very long set of ‘blonde jokes’.

    After some to-ing and fro-ing, involving ‘can’t you take a joke, it’s not ‘serious” and ‘all my blonde friends who are girls think it’s funny’ I seemed to have made a point when I asked ‘ok, let’s make them all ‘ jokes’.

    And everywhere you went people said – ‘oh ! Have you heard the one about ….? Oh? CAN’T YOU TAKE A JOKE?’

    Though I am now not a spinster, I always did think, as a young lass, that spinster aunt sounded like a pretty damn cool career path.

  35. Liz

    I agree with mj. Can I be cured of “heterosexuality”? I also agree with humanbein who said, A fluid and loving sexual identity that doesn’t rely on sexual obsession to express your love for another person is more appealing to me.

  36. Agasaya


    I think it is fine for psychiatrists to explore sexual identity with those feeling confused and/or guilty about it until the correct decisions are reached for the individual. That might lead ‘gay’ people to identify themselves as straight and straight people to become self-identified as gay (or just realize that bi is natural for many). Psychiatry is about self-realization until you allow a room full of idiots (most psychiatrists)and clergy to decide what is “normal”. And of course since the Americans removed homosexuality from the list of abnormal mental conditions (I believe their decisions are made by voting), it leaves the Brits to satisfy the needs of Big Pharma. You can bet part of the sexual solution to gayness is going to be pharmaceutical.

    Why else bother with it at all?

  37. Virginia S. Wood, Psy.D.

    And get this: their “intentions” are good. Well, that makes their paternalistic, homophobic delusions all right, then!

    The 17% may be using that for self-justification, but trust me, the authors of the study do not agree, and neither do their professional associations’ ethics committees. Interested parties can read the original article at


    My rant on this subject is entirely too long for a Comment. Give me a couple of hours and check my blog for more.

    Non serviam.

  38. not a dudetiful wife

    I bet this is not only a UK issue. I mean 17% helping at least one patient reduce (they didn’t say cure)…that a pretty broad net. And what is meant by that? Of course, some docs will force their beliefs on their patients. Others believe you should be guided to work on what the patient wants to work on, so if a patient comes in and wants to reduce the gay, it’s hard to know what that could mean. To be faithful? To be hetero? Something that is a fetish?

    We have all sorts of problems with the gay, as Rachel Maddows says. But also, some people could be bisexual or transgender or exploring for some reason that doesn’t change their core sexuality. Even some gay people don’t believe that bisexuality exists. You’re on one team or another.

    Here in the US, we are lucky if we get any psychotherapy – everything is treated by a pill. Still, though, here you are vulnerable if you seek therapy and there are a bunch of therapists that suck at minimum and harmful at worst. They can press their religion, beliefs, and even personal issues on you. You can find yourself going to a therapist who doesn’t believe in gay people as a core norm.

    Just as you can find therapists who really don’t like women and blame women for everything going wrong in a marriage (calling Dr. Phil) and even the reason men fuck around on you (Oprah had a show this week with that Harvey dude who just wrote a book on how women should handle men and basically, men stray because it is all women’s fault and she didn’t challenge it. I respect Oprah for building her business and attempting good works, but I call her out for this fuckery.)

    You can hardly find therapists and advisors who can deal with the heteros and who like women…so I’m not surprised gay people would find therapists who try to make their identity a pathology.

    Funny how looking at people as if they have an innate value, innate soveriegnty over their choices, and a sexual nature that is their own, and aren’t manipulated by a sky daddy that tests and punishes them for their willful nature can be the foundation to creating mental health.

  39. yttik

    Heterosexuality under the patriarchy for women has led us to eating disorders, breast implants, bikini waxes, stilettos, tolerating abuse, all sorts of totally insane behaviors, many of them life threatening. If psychiatry had any integrity or compassion for their patients, they’d be treating these things as a mental disorder and trying to help women “reduce” and “cure” their heterosexual “feelings”.

  40. Other Liz

    Expression of the week: “answer the clue phone” – thanks!

  41. rootlesscosmo

    @Virginia S. Wood, Psy.D.:

    I’ve been trying to leave a comment at your blog but can’t figure out how. Could you email me

    john [underscore] burke100 [at] comcast [dot] net

    and help me figure this out? Many thanks, and apologies to Twisty and the blametariat for this off-topic comment.

  42. not a dudetiful wife

    yttik – You’ve got it. It’s a cosmic joke to be a hetero woman in a patriarchy. How can your sexuality lead to such injury? Why would anyone choose such a hard road?

    But there is no surer thing that I know than sexuality is something you are born with – ok, it is something I am born with. Perhaps some have dropped the hetero and embraced the gay. Maybe gaying therapy has worked for them.

    If you are hetero, there are a lot of men who are hetero who hate women at their core. If there is a heaven, it would be great for it to be raining men who actually like women. There are some in the world, but they are like unicorns. But personally, I’d love to be more of an openly practicing heterosexual in my lifetime. There are fewer men I’ve known as lovely and had sex with than I’d like. But there is more of an act and drag involved with most hetero relationships on the dating scene than fits with me. And the alternative seems to be to act in a relationship and lie just to not be alone. Now that is a cruel cosmic thing.

    In the dating world, you have to be a hawt, very thin, within certain age bands for men and nonthreatening…in other words “a professional woman” (like a drag queen in a way) to get a lot of action.

    despite their ability to behave to have a regular source of sex and, possibly something on their arms, too many men hate women other than eye candy and a maid and mother. Being sexually attracted to that which hates you or at minimum doesn’t see you as valuable and always on probation easily leads to many women hating on themselves, picking on themselves and tearing at themselves. If they were this or that, they think, it would fix everything.

    Because few things are core than sexuality and to be sexual with someone who doesn’t like you essentially and who you are naturally is an unhealthy thing.

  43. PatriarchySlayer

    @CoolAunt, I totally enjoy and agree with your analysis of the male obsession with lesbian sex. That’s a much better answer than I’ve gotten from anyone to date.

  44. Sabayon

    lately my nieces seem to really enjoy executing the old stealth butt-swat, so that I will turn around and say,”Hey, who swatted my butt?” Evidently this is hilarious, because they fall down laughing, shrieking the word “butt” over and over. They are 3 and 5.

    The only solution (besides revolution) is clearly to follow Cassie’s example and threaten to sit on them, preferably by comically backing up when said butt-swat is executed. Trust me on this, I’m a child care professional. Now, if only I could figure out how to explain to a five year old why Barbie is a tool of her own oppression….

  45. Spiders

    “the Catholic Church does in fact ask their followers to treat homosexuals like human beings”

    Oh well that’s bloody big of them isn’t it? I guess they thought it was the least they could do seeing as if it weren’t for them nobody would have ever thought to do otherwise.

  46. Angela

    This thread has brought to mind a thought that has been niggling around in my brain for awhile.

    As i understand statistics for sexual abuse, one in three women, and one in seven men, have been raped as children. In a short story–the name and author of which I cannot recall, perhaps someone on the thread knows?–in the story a little boy narrowly escapes being molested by a neighbor, a man. Later he is sitting with his friend, and they see the neighbor go by and the boy tells his friend with bitter hatred that the man is a faggot.

    The lightbulb moment this story gave me: Perhaps much homophobia is actually the result of child sexual abuse carried out by men. Or perhaps the viciousness of male homophobia has its roots in the rage felt by male rape survivors who don’t know how to find another outlet for their particular brand of pain.

    Let me be clear I am blaming nothing but the patriarchy. I am speaking from my own reasearch into child abuse, which is the channel for my rage as a survivor [the only material differences between me and JonBenet Ramsay is that I wasn’t a child porn star/beauty queen, and I didn’t die.]

  47. CassieC

    I got the inspiration for the “sitting on them” threat from Alice in Wonderland. In the court scene, the smaller animals who get excited and create a disturbance get “suppressed” by being stuffed in a sack and sat upon. My folks always thought this was a good comical concept to threaten us with.

    And butt whacking. Oh my. I thought it was mostly in my family that this happened. Butt whacking (not smacking) is how we express affection, disdain, or even just our presence in the room. My nephews love this activity with a passion, and we’re slowly trying to explain to them that while it’s ok with us, the family, because we’re collectively deranged, in the outside world they will get arrested and jailed for sexual assault. They don’t believe us. They think we’re being funny.

  48. The former astronomer

    In fairness to the researchers, they seem to be wholly against such treatments:

    (From the Guardian)

    Michael King, a psychiatrist at University College London who led the study, said: “There is a significant minority of counsellors offering these treatments and they are ignorant and misguided. There is no evidence they change anyone’s sexual orientation and undoubtedly they cause harm.”

    “There are many men and women who are distressed about discovering they are gay, and some will go to counsellors, or be told to go by their parents, and say they can’t cope and can they be changed,” he added. “Some of these therapists might have the best motives, but what they should be doing is helping these people adjust and to cope. They need to know it’s society’s problem, not theirs.”

    I’ve only read the abstract to the paper, so I can’t comment on the content, but it reads as though their intention was to discover how widespread this problem is.

    (None of this, of course, negates most of your post. It was only the tone of the 3rd-from-bottom paragraph that I thought was a little unfair.)

  49. Clarity

    God, to second someone else, you Americans STAY clear of the Daily Male if you want to keep your lobes.

    The dipshit paper is currently running an article on how ugly the female politicians are compared to the topless ones in Finland…

    It does actually try to be sexist, and every feminist terms it the Daily Fail. Also, racist, homophobic etc. All things pathetic, with its array of eighteen year old topless girls the first page you turn to.

  50. Spiders

    Sorry Angela, but I think homophobia is nothing but a social construct; if not for the social conditioning, the boy in the story would never have used the word “faggot” and seeing as most victims of child sexual abuse are female, why hasn’t this resulted in widespread heterophobia?

  51. speedbudget

    I read a short sci-fi story once in an anthology of award-winning sci-fi about a future society in which a person could retreat to a small pod and change their sex without much fuss any time they wanted. So you and your partner could wake up in the morning and be in a hetero relationship, then spend the afternoon in a homo relationship, then be the opposite sex that you were that morning in the night. It was a very interesting analysis. Imagine a life like that.

    As for the article, since when is 17% (or even 21%, if you add the 4% that had thought about going along with it) a majority? Or is my math worse than I thought?

  52. Anna Belle

    There actually is a doctor (maybe two now) in Britian who will cut off you limb if you tell him you want to do it yourself, so afraid is he that you might actually throw your leg up on the kitchen table one night and commence to sawing. MDs are like driver’s licenses; they’ll give any schmuck with a dick or money one. A few sane people get them too.

  53. Agasaya

    Psychiatrists are bad enough with the meds that screw up everyone’s biochemistry. But women are screwed every time we grab a fork –


    It’s so nice to know how altering our biochemistry is profitable. And tasty, too. Freedom of choice is hard when you don’t know to what degree your inclinations have been controlled according to what’s been ingested/absorbed during the past week.

  54. yttik

    “….seeing as most victims of child sexual abuse are female, why hasn’t this resulted in widespread heterophobia?”

    It has, in terms of causing horrendous damage women’s sexuality. It’s the patriarchy that sets women up so they must appear to be enthusiastic about heterosexuality in order to survive, to have access to food and shelter, protection. Women are damaged by abuse and many of them probably do have heterophobia, we just don’t even have the freedom to express that fear. If women had more power, I think we’d see rampant expressions of heterophobia.

    Child sexual abuse of boys is another piece of the puzzle in regards to homophobia. So is the church, culture, attitudes, and of course misogyny.

  55. Cathy

    You nailed it once again, yttik.

    Interesting that most child abuse victims are female (I would have guessed the ratio was higher than 7:3, but the Catholic priests must have been busier than I thought), yet the perpetrators are overwhelmingly male. They always say the victim grows up to be an abuser. If male, the victim often grows up to be an abuser. If female, she either gets extremely depressed or, like Angela, grows up to research and fight the problem. She might very well choose to be a lesbian to avoid the crap associated with males, but all too often she winds up with abusive males, continuing the pattern.

    Also interesting that child molesters who preyed on boys are in danger of being killed by fellow prison inmates, but one who “only” preyed on girls feels perfectly safe.

  56. Dauphine

    “Women are damaged by abuse and many of them probably do have heterophobia, we just don’t even have the freedom to express that fear. If women had more power, I think we’d see rampant expressions of heterophobia.”

    Agreed. Having recently experienced sexual assault in a (until that point) consensual sexual relationship, my aversion to trusting a man far enough to let him into my pants almost shocks me. I stand up men on dates out of fear and actually feel guilty about it. My male friends tell me that not all men are like the man who betrayed my trust and assaulted me, but I have a difficult time believing them. I’m made to feel that I should “get back out there” and “take a chance” and you know what? I really don’t want to take a chance.

  57. procrastinatrix

    First time poster here at IBTP. @ birkwearingblamer: Good point about psychiatry being a tool of the patriarchy. I’m a social scientist (anthropology, which deserves it’s share of patriarchy-enabling blame too), and the way that studies in psychiatry and psychology are designed make it very easy for researchers to just “prove” their biases.

    Do blamers have any advice for someone seeking therapy or counseling about how to find feminist therapists? It just seems dangerous to me to let someone inside your head who may have a conscious or unconscious desire to get you to conform to the dominant culture, rather than explore and resolve your own issues.

  58. Vinaigrette Girl

    @Spiders, in the short story quoted by Angela, clearly, paedophilia trumps choice-of-predated-sex, but that doesn’t invalidate the boy’s perception of his predator as a homosexual predator. you and i agree that homophobia is a social construct but identifying one’s attacker as homosexual isn’t neceesarily and exclusively homophobic. It may be simply stating a fact.

  59. Jezebella

    Vin’Girl, there’s a big difference between “identifying one’s attacker as homosexual” and snarling that he’s a “faggot”, wouldn’t you agree?

  60. gerda

    Agasaya, ‘xeno-oestrogens’. lovely. i’ll add that to the phalates and all the other plastic crap. so glad i can cook, and own a proper plate.

  61. not a dudetiful wife

    Homophobia is a little complicated, but it is tied to the hate and fear of women.

    It has a shade of the racism that slaveowners had. When I read first-hand history accounts of white men thinking about how black people were treated, some would write about their fear that if the black people became really aware of the bias and mistreatment and got into a position of power or equality, the paybacks would be hell. The more “liberal” slaveowners like Jefferson took the track of “someday, just not now and slow” on the subject of equality. What would the gay do if they had charge of the work place, the media, the privilege?

    The racism was justified by religious leaders too. Some mythology on the darker races being judged and positioned by god to be in a lesser position. So it is okay. The same is justified for gays and women and this is stark the more religious the group is and the part of the oppressive world. The Bible tells us so. The surrendered wife is necessary for god’s favor…. the gay cannot be allowed. This is what they say, I’m not saying that’s right.

    (Funny I see strains of this blaming of evil in some new age religious people who say that you bring everything bad – the injustice you experience – on yourself as a energetic decision that you make. So bias, particularly sexism, doesn’t really exist and if it does, it is women being of a lower vibration or something that she can decide to undo… you attract everything you get, which is tidy if you don’t want to encourage group activism or discuss societal impacts.)

    But both the women and the gay empowered is the dangerous possibility of the “no” and the “stop” to the patriarchy. And the dangerous possibility of payback. They have been shaming and putting down, even subvertly without most of us knowing what it would be like to live with full priviledge. I saw this racism fear in the men at work at one place where Indians overtook the executive offices and all of a sudden the white guys saw bias and like hiring and promoting like and all of a sudden merit and equalty was an issue to them. Of course, for women like me in a male dominated profession, it was natural that few women rose and they had no problem with like promoting like.

    Lastly, homophobia I think can be about being a little gay for the alpha dog. Few homophobes can admit that they get the shakes and the excitement over the pleasure of pleasing the the alpha dog. Men who cannot remember their wives birthday or things important to the wife will remember tiny sports details to impress the alpha dogs, and will remember exactly what the CEO drank at the party and what he said – all the please a powerful man. Many men would rather have possessions and the woman that makes other men take notice than what they would actually be happy having. Their attention is on pleasing men and the patriarchy. Thrilling and exciting. That’s sort of gay, though. So homophobia touches on this secret that dare not speak its name. That it’s all about the alpha dog crush.

  62. Occasional Expositor

    @Angela –

    Your stats are a little bit off. The 1 in 3 figure is not for rape of children but for child sexual abuse, which includes various types of abuse.

    Some UK stats from the fabulous Child and Woman Abuse Studies Unit according to various studies:

    “59% of young women and 27% of young men have experienced at least one sexually intrusive* incident before the age of 18” (* includes ‘flashing’, being made to look at pornography etc.)

    “21% of girls and 11% of boys have experienced child sexual abuse**” (** defined as acts ‘to which they had not consented or where “consensual” activity had occurred with someone 5 years or more older and the child was 12 years or less’.)

    “16% of girls aged 12 or under were sexually abused”

    I highly recommend the CWASU website for good info; they do solid, feminist work.

  63. humanbein

    “Alpha Dog Crush!” oh, that’s perfect. They also call it brown nosing. Never admit it to yourself, manly man!

    Using fag or gay as a pejorative is so strange to me. Once I was sitting in Frederick’s Music Lounge talking with a beautiful young woman who I was trying to be realistic about but who was so attractive it was a bit of a struggle, and she called my watch “gay”.

    I was taken aback; I looked down at my cool watch – it was this Starck watch with great big digital numbers on it, very easy to read, which is why I bought it – and I realized that even though she was trying to take me down a peg, “gay” didn’t mean that to me.

    “Thanks!” I chirped gaily. “I like it, too.”

    I take that “insult” the wrong way every time I hear it applied to me. Fuck the homophobes.

    NB: This is another example of male privilege at work, of course. The same technique would never work for a woman.

  64. Hedgepig

    Alpha Dog crush IS perfect: our boy dog has one on my Bruce. He gazes at him with utter adoration and whenever he hasn’t seen him for a few hours he tries to lick his balls. (I’ll leave the reader to sort out the male pronouns there. Hint: only one of them has balls). You see the same look that’s in my dog’s eyes in the eyes of male fans of athletes.
    Homosexuality is the most patriarchal myth-exploding fact. It must be encouraged as much as is humanly possible. It undermines the very foundations of the P: those foundations being that women require penile insertion, and that men’s orifices are NEVER EVER EVER to be considered potential repositories of semen. Woman is the orifice of society!! If men start being orifices too, how can they remain innately superior to women??
    I love it when high-profile men come out. I can’t wait till Valentino Rossi comes out. What? The greatest motorcycle racer who ever lived takes it up the arse??

  65. Spiders

    “Woman is the orifice of society!!”
    That’s it! I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately, since I had a mild altercation with a wannabe-progressive dude in my class, about whether or not homosexual men are “born that way” or not.

    Seems to me, even the most enlightened of Nice Guys struggle, deep down there in the pit of their consciousness, with the notion that any “real man” would willingly *choose* not to exercise their sacred male entitlement to bonage of women.

    No matter how NOT homophobic they’re trying to be, that idea is still incomprehensible to them.

  66. Agasaya

    “Homophobia is a little complicated, but it is tied to the hate and fear of women.”

    This is new to me. Wasn’t homophobia based in male fears of being treated as a woman and ‘invaded’? Original prohibitions in religion against homosexuality centered around males because they never even thought of the idea that women might want sexual gratification from other women.

    Plus there’s the whole economic issue of marriage to enable lower classes to breed for labor purposes and the upper classes to marry for property/inheritance purposes.


  67. Laughingrat

    Agasaya, what you’re describing is hatred and fear of women. Under patriarchy, being a woman, being an orifice, is so filthy and objectionable that for a man to become one by being penetrated is pretty much the worst thing he can do. You can hear this every day when people use the term “pussy” as an insult towards a man, but the rotten concept goes back a long way. Under ancient Athenian law, for instance, a man who was penetrated lost his citizenship, although a citizen could penetrate any inferior person he liked–you know, like women, children, slaves, foreigners, that sort of thing. It was quite seriously a society composed of penetrators and orifices, with power, agency, and happiness doled out squarely to the former.

    “Women are damaged by abuse and many of them probably do have heterophobia, we just don’t even have the freedom to express that fear. If women had more power, I think we’d see rampant expressions of heterophobia.”

    I’ll add my “me too” to the earlier commenter who agreed with this. I cannot express how deeply furious I am at the motherfucking (ha) patriarchy for first squishing me into a het mold, then systematically subjecting me to dehumanization every time I tried to work out some kind of civilized sexual/emotional relationship with a het male. Every goddamn time. I don’t even feel like my sexuality’s my own anymore, you know?

    …And that’s enough confessionalizing from me, I reckon. *embarrassed*

  68. thinker


    I am grateful that you keep writing here. This is one of the only places I can come to feel grounded again. Just moved back to NC with my super short haircut and love for women(yeah I am one too).
    The discomfort level is arggggg….Thank you for all that you do.


  69. Agasaya


    My question is posed to try and avoid circular reasoning. Men abuse women to either compensate for something else they hate/fear but have no ability/guts to control, or because they are ‘hard-wired’ to hate women. Of course, ‘chicken-egg’ themes are not particularly rewarding. However, saying that hatred of women is simply the nature of men instead of a learned behavior (and training begins very early) is to imply that there is, indeed, original sin. In such a case, wouldn’t women have some innate design flaw of the same type? Isn’t female adoption of patriarchal flaws of reason based upon learning?

    Isn’t it problematic to adopt any form of an “original sin” doctrine for either sex? The concept was invented by men out of fear and blamed upon women (Eve), as convenient vessels for bearing it given the extreme pain of childbirth. Pain = punishment in the primitive mind.

    Heterosexuality is not equivalent to victimization. It is most often accompanied by victimization because the patriarchy focused upon finding a source to blame and control to counteract irrational fears. They had the physical strength to impose such a pathological solution for such fears and the act of penetration easily translates into an act of aggression rather than partnership, even for the weakest of men. Why wouldn’t it lead to a fear of rape by other males because penetration represents helplessness by those using the power to penetrate as a means of wielding power. Power trumps sex.

    Abusers generally come to hate the abused as an excuse to continue their aggression. That becomes a circular line of (anti) reason certainly. The patriarchy then institutionalizes the aggression with the enduring leverage of wealth which is generated by power (take what you can’t earn and isn’t freely given). Then use that power to codify such abuse into custom and law.

    The question doesn’t alter the present but does enter into the issue of whether any solutions will ever present themselves or if human beings are even educable.

  70. rootlesscosmo


    a powerful first-hand account of how this politics of penetration operates in men’s prisons is here:


    There’s a sex class there too; it’s composed of Punks, i.e. men who have been penetrated. And there are Men, who penetrate. A single occurrence is enough to turn a Man into a Punk, irreversibly. It’s hard to avoid the conclusion that the reward the patriarchy gives men, even men who are locked up and subject to prison conditions, is power over a subordinate caste, the sex class. There’s an analogy with what W.E.B. DuBois called the “psychic wage” of white supremacy: no matter how poor a white person may be, in a racialized caste system they still have the satisfaction of not belonging to the lower caste. There are deep differences between patriarchy and racism but they have in common this mechanism of rewarding the higher caste with the simple (but dangerously unstable, and irrecoverable once lost) knowledge of not being One of Them.

  71. Laughingrat

    Hi Agasaya,

    You said, “My question is posed to try and avoid circular reasoning.” I agree that this is a good thing, but it is impossible when accurately describing patriarchy. The blame for that lies not with the people doing the describing, because it’s not our logic being described. The blame for that lies (no surprise here) with the patriarchy. The “logic” of oppression is, in fact, circular. Women are bad because they’re bad. Men who are penetrated are bad because they’re now part of the sex class. Etc. You don’t have to employ logic and reason when you’re waving a big stick, and of course patriarchy is all about big sticks.

    “There’s an analogy with what W.E.B. DuBois called the ‘psychic wage’ of white supremacy: no matter how poor a white person may be, in a racialized caste system they still have the satisfaction of not belonging to the lower caste.”

    This was interesting, Rootlesscosmo. I’ve unknowingly adapted that for years when I argue that sexism is at least as pervasive as racism; my argument has always been that no matter how oppressed and marginalized a man might be because of his ethnicity or skin color, he can count on being able to go home to the little woman and pass the oppression on to her.

    Your assertion that patriarchy and racism are different interested me. Can you tell me a little more about what you mean by that? I’m curious, because I’ve always instinctively felt the two things to be logical extensions of each other, or maybe racism extending from patriarchy, if that makes sense. I could probably use some fresh ideas.

  72. denmadrid

    First visit here and I’m awed and grateful: Clarity, reasoning, good humor,…. this has an edge of human progress that I want to advance!

  73. ambivalent academic


    Twisty, you will be unsurprised to learn I suppose that in my current haunt (not far from Cottonmouth County in fact) there are freeway billboards every 3 miles or so advertising one of these Jesus-cure boot camps. It makes my eyes bleed. Having lived previously in a (slightly) more enlightened neck of the woods*, I was shocked when I first encountered such a billboard. I was quite sure it was some kind of frat prank. But when they started popping up like clockwork every 3 miles I became convinced that it was something far more sinister than a group of eternally under-developed boys.

    Thank you for a fantastic blog, which I have only recently discovered via Comrade PhysioProf. I will be stopping by with regularity.

    *Retract “enlightened”, as that particular neck was also the home of Prop 8. [head implodes]

  74. not a dudetiful wife

    If you work in a field dominated by men as I do, you can see the DuBois principle in effect, not in the abstract, but in the real.

    In this recession, a lot of stories have gone out about men being laid off more than women, but the more male dominated the workplace or profession, that is not the case, and I imagine that as you go up in wage, that is not the case. Recent news stories say that blacks and latinos are being laid off at a higher rate than whites in this recession, and percentagewise, I observe that women are being laid off at higher rates than men in finance, banking, technology, business…there was a recent story in Business Week about this that the number of women who are in middle and upper management have been “decimated” at some companies and we have lost a generation of progress.

    Not many feminist sites point that out, because I suspect that they don’t immediately notice this in their environment, so it is not happening to them. And if you are in a female dominated profession, you don’t see it. (although, like I wrote before, to be a male school teacher is to often get preferental treatment in promotions)

    The men I work(ed) with – I was recently laid off as was all the women except for the admin in my area, just assumed they would be “taken care of” by the male leadership and did not fret too much this go around with the layoffs. After all, most were “head of household” with a stay at home wife… Conservative men practice an odd socialism when it comes to lay offs, assuming a woman doesn’t need a job as much as a man. In the patriarchy, a man doesn’t just get to feel safer walking the streets or better about himself sexually, he also doesn’t have to experience AS MUCH fear of losing a job when there are clearly second class citizens at the work place that would surely go first.

    The company I worked for was careful to hand out a listing of ages of who got laid off, because they were sued successfully before, but sex was not an issue and they are not scared of it…yet. We can only hope that with Obama, sexual discrimination claims will be pressed by EOE instead of what happened in the last 8 or 10. Again, this is DuBois, not in the academic abstract, but in your lives. It looks like the next generation of women who are just starting their careers will have to have a redo of the progress in many fields…and they don’t even know it yet.

  75. rootlesscosmo


    Your assertion that patriarchy and racism are different interested me. Can you tell me a little more about what you mean by that?

    Though reluctant to divert this thread down a long, notoriously difficult road, I would say at least some of the differences are historical, the US version of racism (at least) having very specific origins in the slave system, which was different from slavery in Cuba or Brazil, which in turn were different from slavery in Africa and the Ottoman Empire etc.; patriarchy on the other hand seems to be universal, though the details vary. Other differences are best articulated by people speaking from direct experience and wide research, which I’m not.

  76. Hedgepig

    Racism is surely as universal as patriarchy, but I’m with Gerda Lerner who hypothesised that oppression based on sex was the blueprint for oppression based on race. Slavery of foreigners came after slavery of women within the group. Have you folk read The Creation of Patriarchy?

  77. birkwearingblamer

    Any time someone gets “othered” it’s bad news.

  78. Agasaya

    Hi Laughingrat,

    Striving for reason and logic is worthwhile because it is the only weapon which can be held by virtually anyone and is easily shared, if not absorbed. Loading that weapon is very hard however, without input from the experienced and learned. Thanks to all for reading recommendations made on this blog.

    Re: racism/sexism divide:

    Wouldn’t being ‘ one of them’ represent a common denominator among all haters? It indicates that even the privileged feel “victimized” (translation fearful) – or why bother to hate at all? Yes, all along the downward spiral of caste systems, there is always someone ‘lower’ on the scale than you are – if you are male. There is always the woman who can be ‘owned’ to increase self-esteem while being ‘hated’ for not being able to turn the realities of the caste system into advantages (what else are mothers for if not to ‘kiss it better’?).

    Racism among women is also rampant and that may not actually be a function of patriarchy influence in itself, as is sexism. More like a function of human irrationality across gender lines. Racism acknowledges the existence of (males of) the other race along with whatever vilification accompanies it.

    Sexism doesn’t even appear to take females into account in its ultimate act of rape as an empowerment for males. Pushing aside western conventions of hiding violence behind a thin curtain of privacy, rape is seen as a weapon of war which decimates females but is still directed at males. The ultimate threat – we will abuse your possession and destroy your family that way. So the value of females to males is highlighted through this treatment of women as extensions of the male persona (beyond concept of simple ‘asset’). Perhaps rape is another statement made by males to other males (if only psychologically) of their capabilities to hold their own, increasing fears in the process of being used in an identical manner by other males.

    There are innumerable accounts of the legal use of rape of women as a means to punish men, as exemplified here (warning for graphic descriptions) :


    and the follow-up here: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/03/18/asia/AS-Pakistan-Rape-Victim-Marries.php where marriage was still the ultimate answer to obtaining protection for this woman.

    Executions of women to restore male honor are described here:


    The authors also make the point that these practices are holdovers of feudal law rather than religious mandates, however entwined the concepts became around the globe. Secular and religious approvals for the same atrocities revolve around empowerment via the sexual act.

    Again, the difference which may make no difference – but is suggestive that male power bids involving women may have different psychological roots than racism. And sexual violence is the province of many who would never think of picking up a rock to throw at a homosexual or a man of a different race.

    Anything that dulls the fear of life being inherently uncaring about ‘fairness’ or ‘justice’ leading to superstitious means of trying to weight the throw of the dice in their favor. Cosmic realities reduced to emotional impotence.

  79. Fat Angie

    Not having firsthand knowledge of prison sex, I must rely upon my Nigel’s experiences as a Correctional Officer at a maximum security prison (the only job where it’s not uncommon to hear “get your dick out of that inmate!”), but I want to disagree with the assertion that only molesters of little boys fear for their lives in prison. The ones who get raped, killed, etc. are rapists and wife-beaters. The guy who blew away his girlfriend for dinner being too cold is constantly abused, not just the guy who molested his son. It’s all about whether you’re abusing the “weak”, since women and children are not as physically strong or politically powerful, only a sub-human would abuse them. It’s still patriarchal, but I’m just pointing out that the person who rapes or murders a domestic partner or family member is singled out, regardless of the gender of the family member.

    As for gender or gayness, I don’t usually think of myself or of people I’m in a relationship with having gender at all, and when I do, it’s more of a realization of what equipment we have rather than anything sociological. (Although a couple relationships have forced me to realize my status as an oppressed class, but that’s a story for another day.)

  80. yttik

    Is it possible that when we’re talking about prison abuse or the sexual abuse of male children, we’re identifying a completely different sexual orientation? Because it’s definitely not homosexuality that drives priests or married pedophiles or prisoners who identify as heterosexual, to abuse others.(Even though some male victims may perceive it that way.) None of those crimes appear to really be about sexuality, they look like violent acts of power and control. The gender of the victim appears irrelevant, as long as the victim is in a vulnerable position, a child, an inmate.

    It’s likely that the patriarchy has conditioned into the culture an entirely different sexual orientation that really has nothing to do with heterosexuality, homosexuality, or gender. It simply equates sexuality with dominance, power, and the ability to rape “something”.

  81. Antoinette Niebieszczanski


    “Any time someone gets ‘othered’ it’s bad news.”


  82. Lewis

    That’s some crystal-clear and powerful exposition, Agasaya, thank you for the thought and care you put into these posts.

  83. Laughingrat

    Agasaya, I never said I wasn’t in favor of reason or logic. In fact, I said the opposite.

    I’ll say it again: describing the illogic of an oppressive paradigm is not being illogical oneself. It is making an accurate description of a bad situation.

  84. Courtney

    They always say the victim grows up to be an abuser. If male, the victim often grows up to be an abuser.

    Oh, women are abusers too. They often abuse their children, which are the only beings less powerful than they.

  85. zooeyibz

    “The person who rapes or murders a domestic partner or family member is singled out, regardless of the gender of the family member.”

    Super. So ‘honour among thieves’ springs to the defence of women and children after they’ve been raped and murdered, but not before. Because of course up to the point of the actual, irrevocable crime women and the children are just pieces of property. The real crime, in the minds of the jailbird justice-meters, is not that a woman or child was harmed, but that their fellow dude overstepped some unwritten dudely rule of property rights — am I right?

  86. Twisty

    They put rapists in prison now? When did that start?

  87. Fat Angie

    I was agreeing with you, zooey with the statement “it’s still patriarchal”. But the guys convicted of raping some “hot young thing” get it too.

    And only the convicted ones.

Comments have been disabled.