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Dec 02 2009

Godbaggianism originates at cellular level

Need cash? Got any Jewish eggs? Sell’em on Craigslist for 8 large! No Methodist, Buddhist, or Secular Humanist eggs, please. God can tell the difference.

True story: when my ovaries were amputated, biopsied, and interviewed by clerics, it was found that my eggs did not subscribe to any supernatural fantasies whatsoever (except one, which claimed to have Unitarian leanings). Experts were baffled. I was somewhat bummed, since this precluded their lucrative sale to desperate eggless godbags. The ova of spinster aunts, alas, do not command top dollar, no matter how “qualified and extraordinary” we are. It’s discrimination, pure and simple.

___________________

[Full text of egg ad, for posterity:

JEWISH EGG DONORS URGENTLY NEEDED $8,000
Date: 2009-11-20, 7:28AM CST
Reply to: jewishbaby3@yahoo.com

WE WOULD FEEL INCREDIBLY BLESSED TO HAVE YOUR HELP!

A Jewish Blessing, LLC was founded in response to the growing number of requests from infertile Jewish families for help in finding qualified and extraordinary young Jewish women to be their egg donors.

We are currently working with several wonderful couples, with more families reaching out to us every day and we are truly in need of your help.
If you are a Jewish woman age 20-32, very responsible, kind and sincere, with a great personality and would consider helping one of these families achieve their dream of becoming parents please email us at jewishbaby3@yahoo.com …. and please pass this forward to friends who might also want to help.

________________________

UPDATE: Screw that low-rent $8000 egg gig; I just found some discriminating egg shoppers who’ll pay 20 grand!


JEWISH EGG DONOR NEEDED by LOVING JEWISH COUPLE $20,000+ not an agency
Date: 2009-11-15, 5:44AM CST
Reply to: lovingjewishcouple@yahoo.com

JEWISH EGG DONOR NEEDED by LOVING JEWISH COUPLE $20,000+ ALL EXPENSES PAID not an agency

Reply to: lovingjewishcouple@yahoo.com

“We would love you to be part of our miracle”

We are a loving, caring, Jewish couple who are accomplished, secure and happy. It would mean the world to us to share our love with a child and make our lives truly complete.

We appreciate intelligence, education and learning. If you are a student it would be our pleasure to assist with your tuition and related expenses.

You are an ideal donor if you are:

* Jewish with a biological mother who was born Jewish
* (prefer if your biological father was also born Jewish)
* A woman between 18 and 33 years old
* Between 5’1″ and 5’11″
* Warm, caring, responsible, reliable
* Motivated and passionate about what you do
* An individual with high self esteem
* Highly intelligent with high IQ, SAT Scores & GPA (Please Include Scores)
* Attractive
* At healthy body weight
* A non smoker and drug free
* Free of genetic diseases (such as Tay-Sachs) in your primary blood line
* Able to make about 5 visits to a highly respected Fertility Doctor.

You will not need to carry a pregnancy.

Please e-mail us in confidence, addressing the *points above including your age, SAT Scores verbal/math etc., highlighting what you feel is special about you and whatever other information you feel comfortable sharing, with a recent photo if possible to lovingjewishcouple@yahoo.com

92 comments

  1. rowmyboat

    Now, does one need to be ethnically Jewish/come from a Jewish family, or can converts sign up? What about former Jews who converted to something else?

  2. Orange

    The advantage of using eggs from women who are ethnically Jewish by descent is that then the in-vitro offspring will be more likely to have the genetic diseases (e.g., Tay-Sachs disease) that have concentrated in that particular gene pool. This offers maximum authenticity, though the child’s health may suffer.

  3. Rae

    The Jewish people are one of the only groups who can be defined by both belief and genes.

    These families may be more interested in the potential child’s ethnic/racial/cultural lineage, than in its auto-worshipping The God Of The Old Testament.

  4. Ugly in Pink

    With those, I always kind of wonder what would happen if their dream donor gives them the eggs, and then they roll a double zero genetically and get a kid that, despite the eggholder’s SAT scores, isn’t really all that bright/doesn’t fit their conception of the perfect kid. I just worry they’d see it as a bad purchase, ex. “we spent all that money to get YOU?” and mistreat the kid.

  5. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Isn’t Judaism considered to be matrilineal?

  6. yttik

    This being a science blog and all, there really are no ethnic genes, are there? We can’t tell the difference between somebody from Asia or Africa at a genetic level. The closest they come is identifying an immunity to a disease that hit a particular part of the world long ago. If you have that immunity, your ancestors probably originated there.

    Ha! It’s amusing to think of this couple accidentally getting an egg that originated from a spinster aunt. One tiny radical feminist gene could contaminate the whole bloodline for generations to come.

  7. norbizness

    Apparently I missed my calling by purveying shaved ice; I should have been an egg-agent.

  8. Karen

    Why aren’t there any requests for non-godbag eggs? I’d be giving them out left and right. Pay off my student loans? Hell yeah I’m into that.

  9. nails

    Oh, if only it ended there!

    I remember looking into selling eggs, because I don’t want to have any babies and I thought “hey, my eggs aren’t half bad. maybe someone else will want em.”

    So I go and check the requirements, and find out how valuable jewish eggs are, but the other requirements are fucking crazy too. They want models. Yeah, really. I was in the normal BMI range and fit into a size four but I was too fat for every single agency I looked into. They also wanted people to be like 5’8″ or more and attractive. How they can square this with the ‘health’ requirement was beyond me. Very few women are optimally healthy when they are teetering on the edge of being underweight.

    Jewish supermodel eggs must be sooooo expensive.

  10. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    It’s purely a visceral reaction, but the idea of all those requirements is creepy as hell. No way those people would *ever* get my eggs at *any* price, tainted as my DNA may be.

    Eugenics, anyone?

  11. Jane Q Public

    If I were for sale on the black market, I’d probably only fetch $500, but I can sell my eggs for 20 large. Just another way that a potential baby has more value than a full fledged woman.

  12. Felicity

    This is pretty creepy. Godbags playing God. Even if I wanted to respond for £20k, I wouldn’t, for people clearly getting excited at an opportunity to treat actual female genes like candy at a pick and mix. Taking everything that step further. Just highly shudder’y.

  13. Felicity

    Yeah this does seem worryingly like prostitution – except taken to the ‘creation level’, with a smiling desperate couple at the end instead of a sleazy man: ‘I can help get you through college!’ Ew. Same sleaze on a different level.

  14. Jill

    “The Jewish people are one of the only groups who can be defined by both belief and genes.

    These families may be more interested in the potential child’s ethnic/racial/cultural lineage, than in its auto-worshipping The God Of The Old Testament.”

    Racial purity is pretty much the only thing more repellent than the idea that godbaggery is genetically encoded. Jesus in a jetpack!

  15. octopod

    Yeah, we ran this shit in our undergrad paper because they would pay for it, but took it out after one issue because it skeeved us out too hard. Most egg-donation ads seem to have similar requirements; the one we ran was looking for East Asian egg donors. I think the idea may be that the parents want to avoid discussing the situation with the resulting children until they’re older.

    The one requirement that seems to be constant, though, is that they’re all looking for supermodels of [Insert Ethnicity Here] with perfect standardised test scores and no genetic diseases. ::sigh::

  16. birkwearingblamer

    The egg retrieval is not easy. Lots of drugs involved–a drug to stop ovulation, then a drug to stimulate ovulation, followed by a drug prior to retrieval. The retrieval involves inserting a needle into the donor’s ovaries (with pain killers or anesthesia). Each drug and procedure carries risks. Sometimes a women hyper-stimulates, and I’ve heard that’s really painful. Finding the “perfect” donor and paying only $8k or even $20k for all of the medical procedures and risks. Good luck with that!

  17. Notorious Ph.D.

    Nails, I had no idea about this. Not surprising, but still. I note that while the list of desirable traits also include things like “high self esteem” — what, this is supposed to be a genetic trait now?

    From what I understand, being an egg donor is, like most typically female money-earning ventures, damn dangerous. Apparently, in order to get the ova to do their eggy thing, the donor has to be subjected to a series of high-dose hormone shots that can lead to an increased risk of ovarian cancer. Of course, women undergoing IVF face the same risks.

    When I was 20, I, like Nails, might have done it for college or travel money. But I’m from a family of stocky, pasty German/Irish people with bad skin and a tendency towards substance abuse. Do I hear $500? $500…?

  18. Larkspur

    We’re missing an opportunity here. Any remaining eggs of mine are probably damn near petrified. But if we got ‘em out and into a Laura Petrie dish, I am certain we could figure out a way to make ‘em look fresh and healthy, and then, hey, we just start taking bids. (I will need a stunt double to actually show up for the interview. I wonder if Charlize Theron is available. Oh, maybe just a look-alike.)

    By the way, only us non-men types have the eggs, so the requirements that we be tall and gifted and beautiful – well, especially tall – covers the possible (oh, hell, damn near certain) wish that the egg will eventually turn into a penis-having person. So tall is extra-important.

    A non-demoninational# request from my regional craigslist shows the following:

    The requirements for surrogacy are that you:

    * Enjoy an easy and uncomplicated pregnancy
    * Live in California, Colorado, Illinois, North Carolina, or Texas
    * Have at least one child that you are raising in your home
    * Are between the ages of 21 and 38* (*inquire about age restrictions)
    * Non-smoker/No drug use
    * Have reliable transportation
    * Not be receiving state financial assistance (welfare)
    * Have not been arrested or been in substance abuse program
    * Willing to undergo criminal background check (self / spouse)

    # Hah. This was a typo I couldn’t bear to correct.

  19. Jill

    That $20,000 egg ad reminds me of an ad I saw recently on a horse blog. The woman was looking for her dream horse, and said she will absolutely not compromise on her list of insane dealbreakers pertaining to the color of the horse’s feet. The animal could have all 4 white socks, or no white socks, or two fronts, or two hinds, but not one of each, and certainly not three of either. The lunacy of this may not be readily apparent to the non-equestrian, but trust me: the distribution of white on a horse’s feet is the last thing anybody should be giving a shit about, considering a horse is 1200 pounds of skittish prey animal that could potentially kill you.

    I say this as someone who, just for grins, googled “bay gelding with 4 white socks” when I was in the market for my first horse in 30 years, and ended up buying one of the results of that search just because he was pretty. He was totally the wrong horse for me.

    Of course I loved him anyway, and still do, and after 2 years our relationship is improving, but I would have been way, way better off starting out again with an ugly horse that more closely matched my abilities.

  20. Pantsuit Sally

    Ick ick ick. If these couples were able to conceive a baby on their own, presumably they would love the child regardless of how attractive or intelligent he or she turned out to be. Why does that all go out the window just because the kid won’t share their DNA? I just can’t get past the idea of loving children SO MUCH that you’re willing to pay a complete stranger $20,000 so you can have one of your own…but only if there’s a slight chance that the kid will be prettier and smarter than average. Like everything else in the patriarchy: does not compute.

  21. Givesgoodemail

    Oh my fucking…er, dog.
    Now I wonder if Jewish sperm has a higher market value than non-Jewish spunk.

  22. drsnacks

    This has nothing to do with godbaggianism, it’s pretty much just racism. Though that superficially blurred line is probably why calls like that are in any way legal.

    But yes of course, yttik, the phenotypes we use to identify elasticities on a superficial level are expressions of genetic codes, what else would they be?

  23. Larkspur

    I don’t like injecting a serious note here, and by doing so, I don’t mean to justify the whole egg-buying industry, but please don’t forget that WWII wasn’t all that long ago, and a lot of people died, including entire huge ancient Jewish communities. I have a friend, now in her late 50s, whose parents met in a displaced persons camp in Europe, immediately after the war. I don’t believe either of them had been interned in the concentration camps, but each had lost nearly every family member.

    So they married, a little older than most newlyweds, moved to North America, and were able to have one child. God help me, these were troubled people, although they loved and cared for her. But from as early as she can remember, my friend’s mother was emphatic about her daughter’s responsibility to have children, to begin to replace the six million.*

    So yeah, it squicks me. And it’s kind of ridiculous, because ultimately, a person with genuine Jewish blood either has to identify as Jewish and learn about Jewish traditions (whether or not they become pious) or eventually the Jewishness of the blood becomes irrelevant. Since the Holocaust, the links between Jewish race, religion and ethnicity have become more nebulous than ever. I think it’s less about “racial purity” than it is about perceived continuity.

    Regardless, the procedure itself is very burdensome. The non-Jewish niece of a friend of mine donated on two occasions to the same couple (in spite of the fact that she is only 5’1″ and has had no babies herself, but she’s very smart, pretty, kind, blonde, and although her background is central European, she looks real Danish or Swedish) and jeebus, I have to wonder if there’s going to be a reproductive or hormonal price to pay when she gets to be about my age. Because I don’t think there’s data on that.

    *My friend shirked her responsibility.

  24. yttik

    “But yes of course, yttik, the phenotypes we use to identify elasticities on a superficial level are expressions of genetic codes, what else would they be?”

    Alas, I lack the ability to code DNA or to understand anything in the above sentence. However, there does seem to be a prevalent myth that declares race/ethnicity is so dominant that it is written right into our DNA. On TV there were no less then a dozen examples of CSI shows running DNA to determine someone’s race at a crime scene. I believe that is not possible.

    Above it was said, “The Jewish people are one of the only groups who can be defined by both belief and genes.” As far as I know, there is no such thing as an ethnic gene in which to identify someone with.

    Considering the number of genocides humans have engaged in, finally recognizing that race/ethnicity are really man made figments of imagination, at least on a cellular level, is kind of important.

  25. birkwearingblamer

    I had acquaintance who was seeking Asian donor eggs. The problem was that she required the eggs to be from a person who descended from a certain province in China. Apparently, some Chinese people consider people from different provinces to be different ethnic groups. Some parents who adopted Chinese girls have been told that their babies came from a province known for more beautiful girls.

  26. drsnacks

    “Alas, I lack the ability to code DNA or to understand anything in the above sentence.”

    That’s because I clicked the wrong word in my spellcheck menu – I meant “ethnicities” – the the bundle of physical features we use to peg people as belonging to some group however defined has its origin in genes of course. That’s a different idea than a definitive racial marker present in everyone’s DNA, but if you can somehow note in the genes a high navel, light eyes, and a two-dimensional nose you can peg that person as white just as easily as if you saw her.

  27. jd

    I don’t understand what drives IVF except an extra strong dash of self-regard and racism. Having one’s own biological children the easier way when many existing children are in abusive situations is questionable enough. Once it becomes clear that the old-fashioned way won’t work, surely it would be easier and more romantic to save an existing child from meth addicts than to have a doctor shove the progeny of one’s husband and a blonde blue-eyed Jewish supermodel with an IQ of 160 and no Tay-Sachs all up in there.

  28. PhysioProf

    It is mind-boggling that the “lovingjewishcouple” fuck-ups didn’t include “loving” among their extensive list of required characteristics for their egg donor.

  29. Judi

    My first reaction is: intelligent, well-educated people who believe that egg cells have religion? That’s a null set.

    Thinking a little further, this is puzzling. I have no doubt that many of the people placing these ads are in fact intelligent and well educated. What can they be thinking?

    It’s not exactly racism – these ads make no attempt to exclude black Ethiopian Jews, pale nordic Jews, swarthy Arabic or slant-eyed central Asian Jews. Just non-Jews and short, ugly, dumb or poor Jews. The not-Jewish are dumped in the same pile of Undesirables as the short, ugly, dumb and poor.

    So this must be based on a belief that the egg cell has some sort of inherently different and desirable Jewish “soul” or essence, that it’s one of god’s Chosen pre-People. What disturbs me most about this is the assumption of superiority that believers so often attach to their own religion. This type of “ism” usually gets by without notice or complaint.

    How come we don’t seem to have a word for that? There’s probably some academic word, but it’s not in the general consciousness. We have racism, sexism, ageism, classism, elitism, chauvinism. But not beliefism. We accept that each religion is entitled to the belief that only its own followers are saved, chosen, pure enough to visit Mecca, clean enough to step into the holy place without giving god cooties.

    So those little ads look curious and peculiar, but they represent one of the most murderous ideas out there: that a person’s value is determined by what belief group they belong to.

  30. PhysioProf

    It’s not exactly racism – these ads make no attempt to exclude black Ethiopian Jews, pale nordic Jews, swarthy Arabic or slant-eyed central Asian Jews.

    How much money would you bet that they would totally accept an egg from a black Ethiopian Jew?

  31. drsnacks

    They may not have been thoughtful enough to list those exclusions but it’s ridiculous to interpret that as intentionally open; they want white, Middle East-descended, European migrated, you-know-what the-hell-we-mean-in-this-country Jews.

    The transparent racism expressed by those searching for strange donors (eggs or sperm) is always amusing (in an ironic way). Appropriately enough, more common than what’s mentioned in this post are straigtforward calls for Nazi-romanticized Aryan types. People who certainly think of themselves as “good” revealing the most disgusting naked sympathy towards Hitler’s fantasies of the perfect race were highlighted without the obvious social commentary during that Donor 401 story.

  32. Larkspur

    I have never had children and I won’t be having any, so who knows what I’d really have done if I’d wanted to get pregnant but had trouble. My speculation is that I’d go this far: testing and exams for me and the prospective father, possibly an invasive procedure if my Fallopian tubes were blocked. If my partner’s sperms were lazy, I might consider procedures that concentrate them (I’m not sure if there is such a procedure) so that the little swimmers might have more of a chance.

    But that’s about it. That would be my choice to reject further strategies. No hormonal hyperstimulation, no IVF, no egg donation, no surrogate.

    As to when we are entitled to make a moral judgment on the choices of others – no, never mind, ’cause we’re always entitled to do that. But there’s a whole ethics thing. If I decide when I’m 60 that I want a baby? Bullshit. Medical intervention to get me pregnant at age 60 is bullshit and self-indulgent, and I surely wish people wouldn’t do that, but I’m not going to legislate against it. Harvesting sperm immediately post-mortem so you can have your dead husband’s genetic contribution? With great sympathy for the bereaved, I’m against it for somewhat confusing reasons of consent.

    But the whole compulsion to have offspring of your own blood – I get it. I don’t feel it, but I get it. I do think it’s weird. I mean, I know my grandparents’ names, but I’m pretty fuzzy on my great-grandparents’, much less any details about their lives. Plus we’re all crazy, hence my gift to the world.

  33. phio gistic

    If my theoretical eggs promised to convert, would they qualify?

  34. Butters

    Being Jewish is more a matter of ethnicity than religious belief, I think. Or in any event the term is used both ways. So it’s like wanting the eggs to be from an Italian or some such. It’s an understandable desire.

  35. Jane Q Public

    All my eggs are papists. It’s understandable why these couples wouldn’t want any Gentile offspring. The kid could emerge from the womb praying a rosary. The horrors.

  36. Butterflywings

    Firstly, Jewishness is an ethnicity, *not* a religion. I live in London – I can tell you that from personal experience.

    Jews are an ethnic minority. The requirement for Jewish egg donors cannot be racist. Would anyone here have a problem with a black couple wanting eggs from a black donor?

    It is understandable that couples want a child who is genetically similar, *could* be their own genetic offspring.

    And sure, ethnicity is a social construct, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    And, what Larkspur said. Comparisons to Nazism, given we are talking about Jewish people, are downright offensive.

    And yeah, anyone judging the choices of women to undergo fertility treatment can really bite me. So not in the mood for judgemental holier-than-thou-ism. ‘Why don’t you just adopt’ is such crap.

  37. Hedgepig

    I was wondering how long it would be before someone came and told us off for daring to suggest that Jewish people can be as racist as, oh, gee, every other group of humans on the planet.

    And whether you’re in the mood or not Butterflywings, it’s well and truly time we all got a bit more judgemental about people breeding without a thought for how hideously overpopulated the earth already is.
    And now I’m off to visit the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement site for a nice dose of sanity.

  38. DrDNA

    “This being a science blog and all, there really are no ethnic genes, are there? We can’t tell the difference between somebody from Asia or Africa at a genetic level. ”

    Yes. We can. Just as I can sequence a portion of the genome of a lemming and tell you if it’s from North America or Siberia, I can sequence a portion of the genome of a human and tell you if their recent ancestry derives from Asia or Africa. Although, note that the pattern is complicated in humans because of recent extensive population movement.

    You are, however, confounding ethnicity and genetic heritage. Ethnicity is a culturally constructed identity, linked only loosely to genetic heritage. My genetic heritage, for example, is western European. I am, though, a descendent of those who left western Europe, and my ethnicity is Pakeha. It is an ethnicity I share with others from whom I differ significantly at the genetic level, and an ethnicity I do not share with others back in Europe to whom I am more closely related.

  39. Uccellina

    Hedgepig: Racism = prejudice + power. A white person of Jewish ethnicity certainly can be as racist as any other white person against people of color (though I would say such racism is extra-special-stupid coming from them). They cannot be racist against white people of non-Jewish ethnicity, though, since they are not in a position of historical, structural, or institutional power over them. I doubt you would argue that women can be sexist against men in the same way that oh, gee, every other (male) human on the planet.

    “Jews are an ethnic minority . . . Would anyone here have a problem with a black couple wanting eggs from a black donor?”

    That.

  40. drsnacks

    Again with the “if black people” lines – oy!

  41. yttik

    “They cannot be racist against white people of non-Jewish ethnicity, though, since they are not in a position of historical, structural, or institutional power over them.”

    Would somebody run over and inform the Gaza strip of this?

  42. Uccellina

    drsnacks – You’re totally right, and I’m sorry for dittoing that without thinking about it. Let’s broaden it to “would anyone have a problem with any other ethnic minority group wanting eggs from another member of the same ethnic minority group?”

  43. Uccellina

    Yttik – Shit. Of course you’re absolutely right about that, and I’m clearly not doing my argument any favors with all the careless phrasing. I was not thinking outside the American/Western European context. I was trying to say that most Ashkenazi and many Sephardic and some Mizrahi Jews who benefit from white skin privilege, cannot be racist against those who occupy higher positions in the kyriarchy that exists in the United States and other Western countries. They can be racist against those who occupy lower positions. I hope I haven’t left any holes in that one, but I probably have, so I’ll just apologize in advance and hope people understand what I’m trying to say here.

  44. Melanie

    A person is generally considered to be Jewish through either conversion or matrilineal heritage. Depending on the religion of the receiving family, wanting an egg donor to be Jewish may not be the same as parents simply wanting their child to share their ethnicity.

    The idea of “Jewishness”, how important it is, what determines it, etc, has caused debate for centuries. Converts are supposed to be treated as if they were born Jewish, but who is actually “converted” is up for debate as well — for instance, a person who converts according to Reform standards would not be classified as Jewish by Orthodox standards. Reform Judaism is the most popular branch in the US so it’s generally not a big deal here, but in places where religious law is used to determine state law the question of who is Jewish can become rather important. In Israel, for instance, the government uses halakha to determine marriage law.

  45. Eurosabra

    Re: Gaza Strip. There has been enough (2.5%-0.5%, depending on age cohort) intermarriage in Israel/Palestine that odd faits divers keep cropping up in the news, such as the child of mixed marriage smuggled into Israel to prevent his recruitment by a resistance group, the Palestinian short story “Return to Haifa” by Ghassan Kanafani, which depicts a Palestinian foundling raised by an Israeli-Jewish couple to become an Israeli soldier, and the bizarre group Yad L’Achim, which handles cross-communal custody disputes by kidnapping children of intermarried Jewish mothers from Palestine when there is a powerless Israeli court order issued for their return to their mothers’ custody in Israel.

    This is a rich mess of long making, and most social services people on both sides of the line are aware of what it has imposed on children, and in particular those rendered vulnerable by minority status, whether ethnic/economic/ability (Israel has a southern village of bedouin with high rates of deafness, for example) or gender.

  46. smmo

    “Firstly, Jewishness is an ethnicity, *not* a religion. I live in London – I can tell you that from personal experience.”

    ??? London is particular or any big city?

    All those who converted to Judaism would be interested to hear that I’m sure. Well they signed up for godbaggianism so tough tartlets on them.

  47. yttik

    Ethnicity is a learned behavior, much like religion, neither one is in your genes. Genes are about hair color, not language, not what kind of food you eat, how you dress, what god you worship. Personally I also doubt genes have much of anything to do with intelligence or any other desirable trait, but that’s an ongoing debate.

    Regardless, there’s the karma rule of parenting. Put too much effort into getting your version of the perfect child and she will likely rebel. Genes or no genes, this child could grow up short, atheist, and sporting a D average, just out of spite. The karma law of parenting may be one of the reasons the human race has not yet gone extinct. Cheers to those who rebel.

  48. FemDoc

    Does anyone else here wonder how much lovingjewishcouple@yahoo.com would pay for the perfect Jewish SPERM if the MALE half of said couple was the infertile partner? Somehow, I suspect adoption would be the choice in that case, since the in-between-the-lines message seems to be, “My wife cannot produce the egg necessary to accept my sacred sperm and thus I am willing to pay big bucks to a member (with these particular stipulations) of the sex class to ‘donate’ the required body part. Then you can go your merry way, thanks very much for use of your body. We can now use my wife’s body to gestate the sacred embryo. Have a nice day.” If not for IVF, the ad would simply ask for the same female to be the recipient of the spunk of said hubby via artificial insemination, or perhaps just have sex with him outright, bear his child, and then give it up to the couple for adoption–here’s your money, have a nice day. The racism arguments are interesting, but holy shit, come on! Women as egg ‘donors’ (I always thought donation implied no money passing hands) or incubators–all for the sacred sperm.

    I’m not judging the wife or the egg donor in any of this. I see them both as victims of the patriarchy and one self-centered SOB who seems to think his genes need to be passed on to ensure the continuance of his patriarchal views.

  49. FemDoc

    P.S. Reviewing my bible stories, is this not what Abraham did to Sarah (i.e., used a surrogate mother the “old fashioned” way, i.e., schtupping), thus producing Ishmael with Sarah’s handmaiden in order to pass down his sacred Hebrew genes? Of course, then Sarah did produce Isaac (via the schtup method, and with Yahweh’s blessing). So the whole Arab/Jew rivalry came into being. We can see how well this turned out in the Middle East today. Yahweh is one funny guy, I’ll tell ya, especially when he followed this up with the whole “Abraham, you must kill your son Isaac. Just kidding! Thanks for playing!” gig. Why folks continue to worship this douchebag is beyond me.

  50. Larkspur

    All I meant to say about Jewish identity and the Holocaust is that surviving descendants may sometimes deal with the relatively recent (in historical terms) catastrophe that saw entire communities wiped out forever, and, while thinking about having children, may also feel obligated to consider the feelings and fears of their elderly relatives.

    I do not have any statistics whatsoever on partners identifying as Jewish and wanting to have offspring, and the frequency with which those who have trouble conceiving seek out Jewish egg donors, in lieu of adoption a non-made-to-order child.

    Other ethnic and religious groups have faced genocide or declining populations in recent history. I have no information about the pressure on those survivors to maintain their communities, or to avoid marriage outside the group. But there is pressure. Americans of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean heritage know it. Children of Iranian immigrants know it. Armenian Americans feel it. I assume Hmong refugees face the same fears of their identities being subsumed by the much larger culture, even if many of them lack the extraordinary financial wherewithal that other groups have. I have no idea what’s developing now in Rwanda, where Hutus and Tutsis often intermarried before that hideous April.

    But what we’re not liking on this thread is the perceived arrogance or presumption of entitlement of those people who are in a financial position to buy whatever they want. So let’s make sure we don’t conflate the two: the wish for continuity of traditions, heritage, and ethnicity versus the expectation that one must not be barred from choosing to pay any cost, manipulate any players, and employ the latest technology to buy what they want.

    I don’t have anything at stake here. A great big mixing-up of populations kind of appeals to me. But I also think that a desire for ethnic or religious continuity can exist without necessarily being racist or in any other way significantly malignant or antisocial.

  51. Other Liz

    The categories on this blog are hylarious!

    Ok, back to your intellectual discussion.

  52. drsnacks

    Larkspur, the lack of respect towards culture, let alone any desire to want to preserve it, is an oft-stated tenet of this blog. That millions of Jewish individuals were murdered is the tragedy. That the idea of a “Jewish people” is consequentially in danger is irrelevant. And of course that’s much more sympathetic than immigrants wishing their children to preserve the oppressive cultures that they themselves felt pressured to physically escape.

    As for whether other racial groups demanding matching donorship would be as offensive – they’d all be racist, but honestly the offensiveness would vary by the power of their respective groups. Socially, blacks aren’t voluntarily desired in any situation just for being black, so someone demonstrating their valuing of an egg or sperm just because it came from a black person would be a quaint rarity, while someone flaunting the overinflated value of the dominant class is disgusting.

  53. yttik

    Also disgusting is the fact that women would be driven to selling their eggs just so they could go to school. “Let us help you with tuition.” What next, we sell a kidney?

    This is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, women should have access to some basic financial services without having to resort to surrogacy or donating eggs, no matter how “blessed” the couple may feel to be benefiting from your exploitation.

    It’s not really a choice, not like someone with full human rights would have, not when people are feeling desperate financially.

  54. Larkspur

    “…That the idea of a “Jewish people” is consequentially in danger is irrelevant….”

    Actually, I agree. If someone I knew was stressing over, and spending lots of money for, the selection and purchase of suitable ova because so many millions died in the Holocaust, I would be sympathetic to their stress, but not supportive of the endeavor.

    I think that most if not all high-priced, high-tech reproductive intervention involving, especially, the exploitation of others for egg-harvesting or surrogacy, is ultimately not supportable ethically. I only meant to point out that there are other reasons than hubris that people might seek it.

    I’d rather spend the money on seeing that ever woman has access to a full range of prenatal care, or seeing that every child has a good breakfast and some clean drinking water. Just for starters.

  55. octopod

    FemDoc, I know sperm donation is fairly common (see the Donor 401 business), but I don’t know anything about the relative frequency of sperm vs. egg donation. An interesting question.

  56. Jezebella

    Octopod: it is perfectly legal to sell one’s sperm; it is technically illegal in most places to sell one’s ova. I note with interest that sperm donation is easy and painles, while ova donation involves hormone treatments, pain, and side effects. In most places an egg donor can only receive remuneration for her time and expenses. A sperm donation can take place in a bank with no specific recipient intended; not true with egg donation. There are undoubtedly tons more sperm sellers than egg donors. I remember reading about ova donation years ago and discovering that the one across-the-board requirement of all egg buyers everywhere was this: no fatties. How ya like them apples?

    And now, an anecdote: a friend of mine just endured two years of fertility treatment because her asshole husband has a fetish for his own DNA. She was ready and willing to adopt, but noooo, he wanted his own personal sparkly unicorn special DNA to reproduce. Now that the fertility treatments have reached a dead end, he’s now convincing her they’re “too old” (at 40 and 43) to adopt a child, and that adopted babies might be damaged or something, as though one’s biological children come with some kind of guarantee. There are no guarantees, I keep telling her, whether your kid comes from your womb or anyone else’s, but he’s not buying it. He thinks his special sperm will create a perfect super-baby, and no-one else’s will do.

    Men’s bizarre fetishization of their own sperm is creepy and gross and deeply narcissistic, if you ask me.

  57. Val

    Speaking further of ethics: I’ve had a major falling-out w/one of my nearest-&-dearest friends over her obsessive create-a-sibling-for-her-firstborn pregnancy quest…
    It deteriorated into egg donation – she wound up pregnant w/twins since her idiotic RE overruled the opinion of the embryologist (she had two “excellent-quality” embryos & therefore should only have had ONE transferred, but he gave her TWO) – & while I wasn’t going to wrangle w/her over the ethics of the egg donation itself, I vehemently disagreed w/her decision to KEEP IT A SECRET. Yep, she told only me, myself, & I – & fully expects me to carry this secret to my grave, regardless of my belief that it is at least THE CHILDREN’S right to know about their own genetic heritage.
    We don’t talk much anymore – but I’m preparing a letter for the boys, I just haven’t decided the best age to present it to them.

  58. tinfoil hattie

    “Let us help you with tuition.” What next, we sell a kidney?

    No, you skipped over strip-dancing and prostituion.

  59. phio gistic

    Interesting post on Sociological Images regarding “measures of Jewishness”
    http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/12/02/nazi-racialization-of-the-jews/

  60. Uccellina

    drsnacks – Dude, you just went from “Again with the “if black people” lines – oy!” to “Socially, blacks aren’t voluntarily desired in any situation just for being black, so someone demonstrating their valuing of an egg or sperm just because it came from a black person would be a quaint rarity . . .” which is not only hypocritical but innaccurate – I think you’ll find that black couples seeking egg donors tend to seek black egg donors.

    And this? “. . . while someone flaunting the overinflated value of the dominant class is disgusting.” I don’t know how I made it this far in life without realizing that Jews were the dominant class! I guess it’s all that money we have from controlling Hollywood and owning all the banks. Off to join the international conspiracy! Woohoo!

    Okay, I clearly need to be done with this thread. Adore this blog, adore Jill and the obstreperal lobe of Twisty, agree that the ethics of reproductive technology are extremely complex, disagree with the wholesale teardown of culture and ethnicity, find problematic the conflation of ethnicity and religion in the original post. Done.

  61. Eurosabra

    Of course a religion which develops levirate marriage as part of its religious law is going to have a hard-on for the continuation of the male line in the case of a couple with an existing, breathing husband. But the matrilineal nature of Judaism is the core of the issue, from a purely religious perspective, a halachically Jewish donor, whether born such or converted, is the point. So the couple might be asked point-blank whether they want religion or ethnos to be decisive.

  62. drsnacks

    Uccellina – I of course was not talking about about Jewish people when I said the dominant class (I didn’t think I needed to describe them – the point was only that they’re the dominant class, but I meant white, educated, with especially European features, typified by donor 401).

    And you may be right that black couples tend to seek black donors, but I don’t think you can be so sure of that without really looking into it, or that they’d have such a preference as strongly and as often as other groups, let alone that they’d seek donorship as often. Either way what matters is how often and at what cost they’re requested period, not within a tiny group pre-defined as their specialist customers.

  63. Bizzie Lizzie

    During the holocaust people were rounded up and executed who had been unaware of any Jewish heritage. The notion of ‘Jewish blood’ is already pretty dodgy ground and effectively mythological. Nevertheless it has steam, and WW2 was only last week, still in living memory. A survivor of the holocaust once told me that a Jew should never ‘marry out’; when the going got tough a non-Jewish partner would likely turn against you. He had seen it often, he said. These ghosts are still breathing, and anti-semitism is as alive as ever. Insularity in Jewish communities was in some ways only intensified by the Nazis’ attempts at annihilation. I can see in the context why one might wish ones child to be Jewish too (cue 10,000 word essay on what Jewishness is) without it necessarily being ‘racist’ in anything but the most defensive sense.

    If they’re looking to put back what was lost in that nasty business last century they should be offering priority to gay, disabled and otherwise infirm Jewish donors. Someone should let them know.

  64. smmo

    Also disgusting is the fact that women would be driven to selling their eggs just so they could go to school. “Let us help you with tuition.” What next, we sell a kidney?

    Yes, this. I would have much less mixed feelings about reproductive technology without the taint of capitalism.

    But I also think that a desire for ethnic or religious continuity can exist without necessarily being racist or in any other way significantly malignant or antisocial.

    Not really. Ethnic or religious continuity a.k.a. the patriarchy.

  65. SarahG

    It’s precisely because sperm donation is safe and painless (quite the opposite, I gather) that it’s legal to offer and accept money. The ethical worry about egg donation is that young women will be pressured financially to undergo a risky procedure.

  66. Saurs

    During the holocaust people were rounded up and executed who had been unaware of any Jewish heritage. The notion of ‘Jewish blood’ is already pretty dodgy ground and effectively mythological. Nevertheless it has steam, and WW2 was only last week, still in living memory.

    Blizzie (and larkspur) make good points above about the desire for “continuity” and the perception that these are defensive actions. A consciously-cultivated cultural insularity in the face of genocide and persecution is an obvious product of fear, understandably so. But taking cues from Nazis, perpetuating these irrational beliefs about the purity of “ethnic” blood is disturbing, and not simply because doing so hearkens back to a by-gone era; racialism (or scientific racism, if you like) is alive and kicking throughout the world and its apologists are often quick to claim that they are merely acting in the interests of preservation or defense (of some presumably pure ethnic community and its unsullied traditions). I mean, isn’t that the bread and butter of, for example, the BNP?

  67. Solniger

    Its fascinating that a woman’s uterus can carry to term the pregnancy of a fetus that isn’t genetically her own. I know the placenta doesn’t allow T cells or B cells or most immunoglobulins to go through but I would expect something so parasitic to be done away with before the first trimester is over. I wonder if gestational moms are given immunosupressants.

    Even ABO or Rh incompatibility in a mother’s own fetus can cause spontaneous abortions or death of a fetus, although there does have to be prior sensitization.

    I would feel extremely toolish if I had to carry dear nigel’s and some stranger’s baby. Then again, most demands of the patriarchy make me feel extremely toolish.

  68. Lesley Sommer

    Please let us not conflate these very different topics: ethnicity, IVF, and donor gametes. Please please please, if you aren’t informed about assisted reproductive technology and infertility, don’t make assumptions about the people who undergo such things. Some infertiles just might be rather excellent Blamers.

    And no, women who become pregnant with donor eggs don’t need to take immunosuppressants in order to avoid ejecting their “parasites.”

  69. Jill

    “find problematic the conflation of ethnicity and religion in the original post.”

    So Judaism is like Twix: is it a cookie, or is it a candy bar? Or like Certs, it’s two, two, two mints in one?

  70. TA

    Eh, adopting is pretty hard, too. And don’t forget that adopted children haven’t always qualified for inheritance rights (and sometimes still don’t – particularly from grandparents and trusts that didn’t do the adopting). Plus, it’s pretty painful for the biological mothers. Furthermore, some baby-distributing agencies and countries are kinda anti-Semitic.

    Assisted reproduction is total weapons-grade suck, though. I had expensive tests and invasive procedures, a brief ill-fated pregnancy, and a whole LOT of ultrasound wands up the cooter before anyone (including me) thought to check on my Nigel’s DNA delivery devices. Meanwhile, the whole world felt free to scold me about my age, my weight, my workload, my eating/drinking/smoking/caffeine habits, my professional aspirations, and my sinus medications, for fuck’s sake.

    And I had to start wearing belts and fitted clothes because if one more person mistook a winter sweater for an invitation to ask my due date, someone was going to jail.

    And the only option offered was the REALLY expensive IVF. They use a particle collider or something to get the defective sperm IN the egg, and it costs as much as a new Jaguar convertible for each try. Getting knocked up with someone else’s DNA delivery devices was never mentioned by anyone (including me). Donor sperm is pretty much just for single ladies and lesbians, I guess.

    Anyhoo. I don’t know shit about Jewish eggs. But I can maybe respect the prospective Jewish mama for trying to limit the blast radius of pain and exploitation to herself and to her undercompensated Jewish supermodel egg donor.

  71. Orange

    The three Jewish adoption stories I know of show that not every Jewish couple is fixated on Jewishness of DNA.

    One woman had been adopted at birth. Incredibly smart, graduated from an honors program at college at 19 or 20. Actually, I don’t know if her birth parents were Jewish at all–but her brother is her parents’ biological offspring and he was kind of a fuckup. The woman’s not tall, but is indeed very pretty.

    A Jewish couple’s young child died, possibly from a genetic thang, I don’t know. They went on to adopt a baby who had been abandoned on the El in Chicago. Baby was thought to be Hispanic, but no matter–the parents raised him as a Jewish boy named Barry. (I babysit him when he was an infant.)

    A Jewish friend of mine (her mom’s Jewish) and her partner plan to raise their son as a Jew. The partner (not Jewish) gestated the kid, and the sperm donor was part African-American, a smidgen American Indian, and mostly white but not Jewish.

    I am not a fan of any sort of “ethnic purity” malarkey, but then, a white supremacist would call me a race traitor. I get that the “we are an embattled people who must carry on the bloodline” argument holds a lot of power for a lot of people, but it does nothing for me. Genetic diseases concentrating in a given population is a sign that they ought to mix it up a bit. I mean, if you happen to fall in love with someone of the same background, fine, but so many people only want to marry someone of the same race/ethnicity. Don’t like that.

  72. Uccellina

    Jill – sorta :-) I find it helpful to distinguish between Judaism and Jewishness, using the former to refer to the religion and the latter to refer to the broader, admittedly inchoate, concept of Jewish identity as it relates to ethnicity and culture (and, for many but not all, extends to religious affiliation). Actually, the Twix analogy might not be a bad one. Multilayered identity, etc etc. Or maybe we are just delicious and go well with coffee.

  73. Uccellina

    Can’t believe this only just occurred to me, but I think if godbaggianism were the relevant quality being sought, I imagine that they would have requested the Donor be Bat Mitzvahed or have some other Halakhic (religious) credentials.

  74. Jill

    “Or maybe we are just delicious and go well with coffee.

    As an inveterate Jew fraternizer-cum-habituée of coffee shops,
    I can back up this hypothesis without reservation (albeit only anecdotally).

  75. Eurosabra

    I mean, the Halacha of egg-donation is unsettled, as to whether the birth-mother or the egg-donor is the biological mother, in terms of Jewish religious law. So getting a Jewish egg-donor to go with a Jewish birth-mother is so far the only way of getting an indisputably Jewish child out of this particular route of technologically-assisted reproduction. And of course the family should be clear that halachically Jewish rather than necessarily “of Jewish ethnic origin” is their goal. And the answer to the “two things in one” dichotomy of Judaism/Jewishness is that it becomes solely a religion when states stop putting it on people’s passports and IDs as a matter of policy. And, well, Israel itself only recently started meeting that test.

  76. Hedgepig

    Lesley Sommer, we’re not “conflating” these different topics, we’re discussing them all in the same conversation.
    Also, I don’t have to be an expert on IVF to have an opinion on it. You don’t have to be able to lay an egg to know a bad one.

  77. Jill

    What Hedgepig said. Although I don’t see what’s so terrible about conflating stuff. It’s like, the minute you conflate stuff, the whole goddam Internet’s on your case going “don’t conflate that stuff, you ignorant slut!” because apparently a little conflation is the blogular equivalent of a catastrophic gravimetric field displacement manifold* breach, or using incorrect punctuation or something.

    But we’d sure have to be dumb to conflate “IVF” with “ethnicity.” Dumb, or else devastatingly brilliant, because doing that would be fucking hard.

    ________________
    * That’s a warp core, for those of you who washed out of Starfleet Academy.

  78. Uccellina

    Lesley wasn’t asking that anyone be an expert on infertility and reproductive technology – which is not necessarily IVF – in order to have an opinion. She was asking that people inform themselves at least minimally about it before making assumptions about the people who undergo treatment for infertility. Assumptions like: reproductive technology = IVF, or egg donees must need immunosuppressants, or all infertile people who undergo treatment are selfish patriarchy-bots and why don’t they just adopt because that’s so easy and virtuous?

    You don’t have to be able to lay eggs in order to know a bad one, no. But you do have to know what an egg is and how a good one should smell.

    But what do I know. I’m just an infertile Jew.

  79. Jill

    Both of my nieces are the result of some kinda gonzo medical intervention — I think the oldest one was transplanted from a baboon.

  80. Hedgepig

    Uccellina, if I admit that Lesley was not asking us to become experts before expressing an opinion on reproductive technology, will you admit that no one here claimed that all reproductive technology is IVF, that egg donees must need immunosuppressants, or that all infertile people who undergo treatment are selfish patriarchy-bots, or that adoption is easy and virtuous? I’ll knock down my straw man if you knock down yours!

  81. Uccellina

    Hedgepig:

    As to the first, you responded to Lesley’s comment in which she said “assisted reproductive technology and infertility” by saying “I don’t need to be an expert on IVF to have an opinion on it,” thereby using “IVF” to stand in for all assisted reproductive technology.

    As to the second, Solniger said “I wonder if gestational moms are given immunosupressants.” I’ll concede this wasn’t an assumption, but it was an impressively uninformed remark.

    As to the third and fourth, JD said “I don’t understand what drives IVF except an extra strong dash of self-regard and racism. Having one’s own biological children the easier way when many existing children are in abusive situations is questionable enough. Once it becomes clear that the old-fashioned way won’t work, surely it would be easier and more romantic to save an existing child from meth addicts . . .”

    Those are the specific comments to which I was referring. No strawmen needed or wanted.

  82. Hedgepig

    You’re right! I should have said “IVF etc.”

    A question is often an uninformed remark. Hence the question. It is impressive though, because it admits lack of knowledge, and asks to be informed.

    jd assumed it was “easier” to adopt than do IVF, not that it was “easy”. Also, just how much background knowledge should jd be able to prove before she/he is permitted to express an opinion?

  83. jezebella

    My infertile BFF informs me that healthy white baby adoptions run about $60k here in the US and can take years. As a Muslim, she’s unlikely to be selected by most birth mothers. “Mixed-race” babies, however, are available at a discount at any time convenient. Kind of puts the whole quest for racial continuity in egg donors into stark perspective, doesn’t it?

  84. agasaya

    The assumptions regarding the motives for these ads are rather heavy on the religious issue. The details here sound far more like a plea for individuals likely to have more specific physical characteristics (not specific to ‘Jews’)and to have little ‘truck’ with drugs and alcohol.

    Designer babies cloaked in the guise of genetic purity. Considering the amount of diversity among Jews due to transglobal migration and rape (Teutonic Knights contributed some interesting variety in eye coloring), it doesn’t make much sense.

    In fact, some orthodox Rabbis have encouraged Jews to adopt gentile children because heredity within the religion/culture affects who one can marry, among other variables. That wouldn’t be a factor if raising a non-Jewish child. The Talmud emphasizes that the important thing is not the question of who was the birth parent but who raises a child – that is the name the child is supposed to carry. All it takes is a conversion ceremony to make it official when the child is old enough to offer informed consent (after 13).

    The going rate for surrogacy also appears to be around twenty grand for non-Jewish, Caucasian babies from an offer recently made to a young southern, unitarian woman of my acquaintance considering that offer (oy!).

    As you’d expect me to offer in a post of this type, a lot of infertility (including my own) is due to patriarchal abuse of science. Endocrine disruptors abound:

    http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/bendrep.asp

  85. PandanCat

    Actually, the thing about egg donors and the guy’s sacred right to pass on his DNA is starting to bug me. Are there cases of male infertility where the potential heterosexual parents use a sperm bank? How do those cases stack up to the ones where the female is infertile and they use (or try to use) some other set of eggs? I think I know the answer, but I’m willing to be shocked and awed by real science.

  86. lauredhel

    “Are there cases of male infertility where the potential heterosexual parents use a sperm bank?”

    Really? All the time. It’s been standard operating procedure in “male-factor” infertility for quite a few decades now (and quite possibly a lot longer, in less formal arrangements). Have you not heard of artificial insemination by donor? Or did you think that its use is confined to single and lesbian women for some reason?

  87. PandanCat

    No, actually, it was a good-faith question. Heterosex and reproduction give me the heebie-jeebies, and most of my friends feel the same way. The internet is basically my only connection to the western world, and I don’t spend much time on heebie-jeebie-inducing sites. Also, I’m very cynical. (Really?)

    So now I’m curious about the gender and relationship dynamics of families that used egg donors vs. sperm donors vs. adoption. I should just get over my squeamishness and find some good book dealing with all this. Surely some intrepid feminist scholar has taken this on.

    Sorry to sound ignorant, but what I am in this situation.

  88. akeeyu

    PandanCat, from what I understand, using donor sperm is more common than using donor egg, partly because it’s infinitely easier and tends to be less invasive for all parties, but also because it is much cheaper.

    General thread:
    I’m always a little perplexed when people get deeply offended by the money involved with IVF. The amount of money my husband and I spent on IVF is roughly equivalent to a new Toyota Camry. Very few people get up in arms over strangers buying a midrange compact car, but I am continually impressed by the amount of outrage expressed over strangers spending the same amount on reproductive technology.

    By contrast, my c-section cost about the same as a stripped down Taurus ($25,000). If you tack on the pre and postnatal care, I think we’re up to a pretty nice sports car. The difference is that I didn’t pay that, my insurance company did, or to be more specific, every other party insured by said insurance company chipped in.

    Why is it considered more offensive for me to spend my own money than to spend somebody else’s?

    For the record, we didn’t do IVF because we wanted to perpetuate genes that we think are particularly awesome. Genetically, my husband and I are no great shakes. Neither of us would be desirable sperm or egg donors.

    We did IVF because we wanted to have children, and like most fertile people, we did want to start from scratch. I’m not going to apologize for that; fertile people generally don’t. We did IVF because neither of us could accept the uncertainty involved with domestic adoption. IVF is faster, less complicated (yes, really), and frequently cheaper than infant adoption, either foreign or domestic.

  89. DaisyDeadhead

    nails: Jewish supermodel eggs must be sooooo expensive.

    Funniest thing I’ve read this week, she said, coughing up coffee onto the screen….

    :D

  90. Frumious B.

    I say this as someone who, just for grins, googled “bay gelding with 4 white socks” when I was in the market for my first horse in 30 years, and ended up buying one of the results of that search just because he was pretty. He was totally the wrong horse for me.

    Wow, Jill, even your advanced level of lesbo rad fem perspicacity couldn’t keep you from picking out a pretty himbo with abusive tendencies. At least you got a gelding.

    (tongue firmly in cheek)

  91. Amananta

    The current man-I-am-dumb-enough-to-be-dating keeps dropping little hints now and again about HOW MUCH he wants children. Even though he knows having my son almost killed me, and I have my tubes tied, and have no intention or desire to breed again. I have told him several times now “You will have to go find someone else for that then.” Then he tries to reassure me with great aplomb that he wasn’t dropping a hint and he doesn’t want anyone but me. Yeah sure. But the in love with his own sperm part – yes indeed. He could try to be a parental figure to my on fatherless child, but he’s no interest in that – HIS sperm didn’t go into making him, so why should he care?
    Needless to say, I don’t see marriage in the future here.

  92. karak

    You know, when I was picking someone to breed with, I had a list almost identical to the above, except I had a different religion instead of Jew. My co-breeder did as well. But since we could/chose to breed in a heternormative relationship that completely conforms to American social ideals in almost every way, no-one thought to criticize us for demanding our co-breeder was self confident, attractive, a certain weight, highly educated and intelligent, from a secular Christian background (but was nonpracticing), and so on and so forth.

    So, when you’re picking someone to mate with, it’s okay to have a giant list of complex qualifications ONLY if you engage in an emotional relationship that’s long term, preferably with intercourse as the means of pregnancy? I’ll… remember that.

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