Feb 06 2010

Grinning moron hates wife

Patriarchy-blaming is a crappy business. The Internet feminist must beware the fine line, or slippery slope, or pot-calling-kettle-black, or hoist-on-own-petard or what have you, when aiming the Super Spinster Truth-Ray at stuff. Attention must be paid to the potential stinkiness of one’s own role in the proceeding. Care must be taken to inspect the fists for ham. Sometimes, denouncing a particular instance of exploitation produces unwanted side-effects. Ethical concerns. Knots in the lobe. Sensations of inner grubbiness. Such that, when the denunciation is completed and the sun sets on another day of blaming, instead of writing, with the usual glowing satisfaction, “Dear Diary, today I exposed some pernicious culture-of-oppression shit for what it is, goddammit!” one is obliged to say “Crap, I think I just participated in misogyny most foul.”

The blaming goal is to expose oppression without compounding it with one’s own voyeurism, but this can be pretty difficult when dealing with subject matter that is by definition dependent upon — and therefore inherently sensitive to — the public gaze. I allude, of course, to the subject-victims of pornography. How do you write, “Here is a graphic representation of our culture’s hatred of women, and this is why I think so” without re-injuring the victim during the course of your argument? Is the pornulated woman to be made a casualty of feminist analysis in addition to her primary violation? Is a woman, once pornulated, swept away into some skeezy two-dimensional purgatory to remain there forever?

These issues are looming large down at Spinster HQ at the moment, and have been ever since that dangole chump PhysioProf hipped me to the existence of an extremely disturbing website. Maybe you’ve already seen it? It’s the “crying wife” website. In summary: asshole tapes wife when she cries piteously at movies, asshole mocks and laughs at tearful wife, asshole puts videos on YouTube, asshole’s website becomes popular. It’s not pornography in the fetishy sex-smut tradition, but it is definitely the graphic representation of dudely woman-hatin’.

Just Google “crying wife.” It’s the first result.

Not realizing what I was in for, I watched one of the many videos. In this video the woman reacts to the ending of “Star Wars.” I do not exaggerate when I say that it caused my jaw to hang open quite a bit further than usual. Also, my eyes started twitching, and I experienced the nasty sensation of self-loathing that I suspect must afflict all losers when they do loser-y shit.

The woman becomes weirdly and inconsolably emotional, yeah, but my slackjaw was occasioned not by her piteous, painful sobbing, but by her grinning asshole husband goading her on. That’s right, when she actually stops sobbing, he intentionally re-exacerbates her sadness by inviting her to remember sad scenes in the film. He also makes a big fucking point of saying that it is so hilarious to pimp her on the Internet as she experiences this extended moment of private weirdness and acute vulnerability. His tone as videographer can be summarized as “I invite you to point and laugh as I proudly make the lovable simpleton I’m married to cry and cry over stupid shit.”

As PhysioProf wrote in his email, “the sheer gratuitous pointlessness of the cruelty is shocking.”

The husband-dude’s laffy obliviousness adds a whole nother layer of crapulence, but it’s obvious he knows on some level that he’s exploiting her, because he’s got a whole FAQ dedicated to explaining how he isn’t exploiting her. First he makes a hi-fucking-larious joke about how she’s insane “only 4 days out of the month ;-)” [sic]. Then he makes his argument, which can can be boiled down to three points. One, it isn’t exploitation because he just can’t help laughing at his wife. Two, his wife “thinks it’s funny” and is “able to laugh at herself afterwards.” Three, it isn’t exploitation because he says it isn’t. He “loves [her] to death and thinks she’s the cutest girl in the world!” Also, “She’s a good sport and we all love her :)”.

Well, that makes it okay, then!

I’ve wanted to complain about this for a couple of days, but the idea of my own complicity in propagating the virus and contributing to the sobsploitation has made me queasy. It still does make me queasy. I have attempted to mitigate my quease by omitting to link to the website, but I have to admit that the astonishing degree of misogyny displayed by this loving husband moron has to be seen to be believed.


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  1. FemmeForever

    It is exactly this brand of asinine, infantile, cruel and rage-inducing misogyny that is the reason I will remain single. Period. Imagine absorbing that soul-killing hatred day in and day out for years and decades. Not me. Not for any reason under the sun.

    By the way, I will not go to the site. Witnessing such things affects me deeply, as it has you, and I have learned to honor that.

  2. speedbudget

    Blaming from the bunker under two growing feet of snow, so I get to be first for once.

    Did he really just mansplain to everyone how it doesn’t hurt his wife? And call her a girl?

  3. Kiuku

    It’s good to see that Wives and Cats are on about the same level when it comes to viral videos.

  4. Larkspur

    “…The blaming goal is to expose oppression without compounding it with one’s own voyeurism, but this can be pretty difficult when dealing with subject matter that is by definition dependent upon — and therefore inherently sensitive to — the public gaze….”

    I get hung up on this one all the time. On the one hand, attention must be paid. On the other hand, there I go, feeding the monster. In this particular instance, I am going to take your word for it, and I’m going to walk away from the google.

    I kind of want to wash my brain, even though I have not actually looked at the Grinning Moron. Did anyone happen to see Rachel Maddow’s show Friday evening? It was a silly and fun show from New Orleans (re-titled “The Rachel Maddeaux Sheaux” for the occasion), and toward the end, one of her guests, a New Orleans drinkologist, Ti Martin, mixed up a mighty delicious-looking cocktail. They looked like they were having fun, and they were adorable, and I know Rachel has her Susan at home, but it was still fun to see them together.

    This link might get you to the clip: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#35266168

  5. Comrade PhysioProf


  6. Bruce

    I cannot bring myself to run the search. I feel polluted knowing it exists.

  7. Sarah Harman

    Agreed, I was thinking about this earlier this evening having been linked to the site last night. Unfortunately I have little more to add other than to say that indeed the feminine compliance through male pressure is certainly seemingly crucial to the normalisation/naturalisation of oppression.

  8. wiggles

    I watched the ‘Back to the Future’ one and couldn’t tell if the wife was putting on a show. I may have been reading her wrong, but she seemed to be suppressing a laugh. Besides, there’s nothing remotely tear-jerking about any of those movies except ‘AI.’ Even if she was acting though, the whole endeavor is still ridiculing women by stereotypes. You know how women are all emotional and always crying and shit. Guffaw.


    Christ, have you ever watched a sad movie with a “real man”? The guys are so emotionally stunted that they’ll cry at anything</i?, up to and including the bit where K9 blew up in last year’s Doctor Who, even though he’s been blown up half a dozen times already and always ends up being repaired later on.

  9. wiggles

    sorry for messing up that tag

  10. delphyne

    She probably cries at films because she can’t quite bring herself to acknowledge that she really wants to cry at being married to such a dick.

    It was Sonia Johnson who said that the few days of PMT she experienced every month when she was married, were the only time when she saw her life as it truly was.

  11. yttik

    That’s chilling, Jill. Queasy inducing, for sure. He reminds me of a nice neighborhood boy, so clean, so polite, so normal sounding, who tortures cats in the basement. The banality of evil.

  12. B. Dagger Lee

    Being a watcher always heightens the sense of complicity, I suppose. But I suspect that it’s also because we’re not used to the function and concept of witnessing, which is an honorable, painful, necessity. If you are paying attention to the crime and to your feelings while watching it, as well as engaged in the struggle against it, perhaps it is an act of witnessing, though full of all those painful feelings.

  13. Erin

    The facts of this world seen clearly
    are seen through tears;
    why tell me then
    there is something wrong with my eyes?

  14. godlizard

    I think I see a need here for a website that provides a counterpoint for this. It would feature videos in which the grinning moron husband attempts to video his sobbing wife, only to have the camera spontaneously re-purposed into a makeshift proctoscope for darling hubby. It would be cathartic, educational, and perhaps even detect a wayward polyp or two.

  15. Lady K

    I’ve decided to take your word for it and not actually watch the video to save Husband Dude the pleasure. The next thing anyone needs is for it to get featured on Tosh.0!

  16. agasaya

    If it’s about educating women, then you succeed when you expose such things.

    Any woman capable of moving above the brainwashing (to whatever degree is possible), will learn from that vid. Those already possessing a clue won’t need to go and watch it. We already know the degree to which the average male must denigrate ‘their’ women in front of other males to maintain his status as owner, rather than partner.

    Models of cognition speak to the discomfort (or here, absolute pain) in reorganizing one’s consciousness to accommodate new information. It tends to change so much of the old ‘stuff’.

  17. humanbein

    The internet is like the human brain in aggregate, and clearly shows the evil possible in the lowest depths of the human heart. I fervently wish for the day when we give it a conscience. I hate the fact that it is literally a fountain of the foulest evils conceivable.

  18. Laughingrat

    Ah yes, a little-examined tool/trope of Oppression Culture: that thing where any emotion other than hatred, greed, or lust is somehow equivalent to weakness, and exists only to be mocked or exploited. This rancid belief finds itself into pretty much every corner of society, even in places that are otherwise staunchly anti-oppression. It is to weep–except, of course, that weeping’ll get ya mocked on the interwebs.

  19. janicen

    I’ll pass on visiting the website. I’d rather not even think about it, having experienced a similar trauma as a child when I was photographed with a Polaroid camera by a brother fourteen years my senior, who made me cry and thought I looked really funny when I cried. My arms were held by two other brothers so I couldn’t hide my face. It’s pretty sick shit. I hope she leaves that asshole before the abuse escalates.

  20. Vak

    What is disturbing is not the men – brothers and husbands being the biggest culprits – posting videos of their sisters, wives, and other female relatives on youtube and facebook. I mean, it is disturbing to see, but what is more disturbing is the number of women who forward these links (I get your queasiness and will not check it out for the same reason) or post it on their wall to get a laugh! AAAARRGGH

  21. Oaktown Girl

    Janicen – that’s awful what happened to you. I wish that sort of thing, especially perpetrated by family – a supposed place of safety and support – was far more rare than it actually is.

    No, I couldn’t bring myself to go to the site either. That’s some sick shit. What’s really tragic is how many people clearly don’t get just how truly sick that shit is. Pfffft…stupid, silly women.

  22. Oaktown Girl

    By the way, I have an update to this IBTP post about the godbag football player Tim Tebow making an anti-choice commercial for the Super Bowl.

    It seems Tim Tebow is being lauded for his “courage” in this matter and is being compared to athletes in the past who showed real courage and faced major consequences for doing so. Dave Zirin does an excellent job dismantling this bullshit, and is a must read, even for non-sports fans. (No worries, it’s a short piece. Doesn’t take long to set the historical record straight).

  23. nails

    Encouraging a sense of glee in causing another human being distress is anti social. It is a normal human response to care & want to help people who are upset. Dude is broken in a fundamental way, and so are many others who find it amusing. Gross.

    Culture that isolates and depolitisizes the population is very advantageous to the patriarchy. This is my current theory for television and popular culture in general. It turns folks into weird robots who spend their days watching various sorts of glowing rectangles, only talking to each other to discuss what they saw on said rectangle or how they want to buy some thing they saw on it. Or hey, did you see this thing I bought? I heard a better one is out, I regret not color coordinating my electronics, etc. It is the kind of petri dish needed to grow nasty shit like the crying wife website with any success.

    Is there a single sexist act that dudes cannot find a lone woman to vocally support for them? “SEE”, they say, “LOOK AT THIS SPECIMEN, IT- er, SHE PROVES HOW NOT SEXIST I AM”. Weird how a big group of women not approving isn’t proof, but one approving is. I can’t count the number of times I have had this kind of crap pulled on me.

  24. Carolyn

    Wow, thank you for writing this post and for raising this issue–it’s something that hadn’t occurred to me, and I’ll think about it and (if I think I get it) pass the idea along. Really, it’s true for every time we point and laugh or point and criticise an example of misogyny–there always is, at the bottom of it, a real live woman being first somehow exploited, and then pointed to and laughed at by us. I’ll also take your word for it about the video–honestly, I suspect I’d find the image of the woman crying far less disturbing (hell, I cry at movies–which is one reason I prefer to watch them alone) than the image of her husband hating her.

  25. Gayle

    We’re not doing exploited women any favors by ignoring them.

    I know you don’t ignore them Jill, but a lot of feminists do. They deny the reality of porn/rape culture by refusing to see what it really is, by turning the other way.

    This makes it so easy for the other side to lie. I still see lopsided “discussions” about porn where the pro side gets away with the tired old “it’s “only sex” argument. Or in some cases, “it’s only naked women,” like in old Playboys canard. This allows women to pretend porn is not about domination and hate, which in turn contributes to the normalization of even more domination and hate.

    Most feminists don’t want to look at this stuff. We don’t want to see women hurt or humiliated. I don’t even want to look at the crying woman video. But I do think we need to look sometimes to really understand what’s going on, to see why it’s so important to speak out.

  26. Virginia S. Wood, Psy.D.

    It’s a sunny day. I’m sitting in front of my picture window, from whence I can see that my bird bath is covered by and surrounded with a good-sized (for the ‘burbs, anyway) flock of Mourning Dove. My lobes are cleansed by this sight, and I have no intention of dirtying them by going to that link. I would much rather look at sunshine, birds, blue skies, and sparkling water. But I agree that you must expose it, and I thank you (and the chump) for doing so.

    You know what creeps me out? The hostility expressed in the phrase,’I love her to death.’ The very words are a form of so-called “domestic violence”. The sheer OJ-ness of it makes me break out in a sweat and want to hurl every time I hear it.

    Hurling is not sophisticated patriarchy-blaming, I realize, but there you are.

  27. janicen

    The victim is not a person, merely an object who’s purpose is to provide entertainment. The photographer is not only objectifying the victim, but then publishing the objectification for all to see. “Look, everyone, I can victimize this person and anyone who doesn’t appreciate it is humorless and just doesn’t get it…” I’ve seen similar disgusting displays on facebook and youtube, the photographer is always a man and the person being objectified is always a woman. IBTP

  28. yttik

    We need a good revenge fantasy. I’d like this woman to be so distracted by a movie she’s seen that she accidentally pours horse laxatives into her husband’s spaghetti sauce. Then she could video tape his suffering and her giggling, and put that on you-tube. She could call it “pot shots.”

    Isn’t she just the cutest thing in the whole world? So emotional, so distracted, so clumsy. Imagine that, confusing oregano and laxatives! How cute. I’m sure he’d be more then happy to “be a good sport” and to laugh about it all later.

  29. sfj

    Guy comes across as wife hating on some level and a weird, goofy dork. There are lots of guys like this. Sadly. Also sad and more strange is a woman actually engaging in this behavior and allowing herself to be videoed. Grinning Moron Hates Wife, Wife of Grinning Moron Hates Self.

  30. feral

    The crying woman video concept demonstrates the violence against women continuum. I am reminded of the abusive relationship I was in–my ex absolutely loved to make me cry in front of other people. He would say something so that others would not hear, and I just looked like a crazy crying lady. Now, when it was just the two of us alone, and he was kicking my ass, I wasn’t to utter a peep. Crying then further enraged him. Porn seems to work the same way: it’s a culturally acceptable form of public abuse in which violent men may engage and demonstrate their dominance over this person while others cheer. This is fucking sick.

  31. Gayle

    I agree janicen,

    Objectification is the first step in our dehumanization. It’s how women are othered.

    Who cares if you hurt an object?

  32. nakedthoughts

    Everything we do is inside patriarchy. So some aspect of what we do will reinforce patriarchy. we can’t be outside. So we need to be as respectful as we can, and make the best decisions we can, and not let it keep us silent.

  33. rubysecret

    The same repulsed feeling comes over me when I see news video of crying women during wars & natural disasters. Maybe it’s not the same thing, but there’s a twisted voyeurism when the dude holding the camera focuses on the beautiful suffering of the mothers.
    A few years back, I was affected by a natural disaster. When the news crew showed up (camera dude and perky gal reporter) and tried to shove a mic and camera in my face, I flashed forward to my own agony displayed on the evening news and wanted nothing more than to shove the burning rubble of my former home down their spectacle-hungry throats.

  34. Kiuku

    women have always been tools for men to develop relationships with -other men-. Men never foster real relationships with women.

  35. tinfoil hattie

    I once sat through dinner in a nice restaurant, watching the man two tables over abusing his wife. They were having one of those hushed, tense arguments that are so ugly. At first they were sitting in silence, then she said something, then he lashed out. I couldn’t hear exactly what he was saying, but he would shake his head derisively, make some shitty comment, and she’d try to defend herself. This went on for at least 20 minutes. Finally, she started weeping. Immediately – I shit you not – he began smiling, and playing, “awww, don’t cry … awww, why are you sad?” It was so sickening. I was relieved when they left, but my dinner was ruined.

    I fucking hate asshole men. The older I get, the less tolerant & more bitter I become. IBTP.

  36. Fliss

    “women have always been tools for men to develop relationships with -other men-. Men never foster real relationships with women.”

    Wow, spot on! It’s the status of women that men develop any relationship with. I was thinking this when I went to a club and lap dancers came out of nowhere – uninvited by the 60% of uncomfortable women in the room. When guys sit back like sloths it’s the degradation they’re smug about, not the sex show.

    I’m sorry but this guy calls his dogs ‘ROFL’ and ‘Noob’. He’s clearly waited to become a cool guy on the internet, just waiting with his greasy recorder for some lame ‘ah awesommm!’ idea to enter his two overworked brain cells.

  37. Larkspur

    tinfoil hattie, the older I get, the more apt I seem to be to call bullshit on some of the stuff I see. It’s not courage, it’s old ladyhood, and I’ll bet you feel that, too. Like, I’m not sure I’d have said anything to that arguing couple. But I might have. I know that in these situations, both the bullying man and the crying woman are likely to get mad at anyone who draws attention to them.

    But more and more, I don’t care. This spinster likes her dinner, and is damn tired of pretending that stuff is okay when it’s not. At this point in my long and silly life, I’m inclined to speak up and tell them to cut the psychodrama, and then I’ll ask for a different table.

    I know that sounds like I don’t care about the woman. I do care. But I can’t help her: I don’t know her, she’s not my friend, and it’s only my business because it’s being forced on me. Maybe it’d help her just by breaking up the drama; maybe I’d lightning-rod the trouble away from her. Or maybe he’d be angrier. But guys like that depend on the silence of strangers.

    But fuck it. Old women ought to be able to speak truth to power or bullshit. Maybe it’s a bearing witness thing, like we’ve been discussing.

  38. Nik Sushka

    So, anyone watching the Super Bowl? There’s a disturbing theme in the commercials I’ve seen so far: “emasculated” man concedes all power to his overly demanding, nagging, shopping, picky, whining girlfriend/wife/female relation–but not to worry. The good-ol-american company is ready and able to restore his rightful place in the order of things.

    Man losing the “pants” in his relationship?
    Dockers is there for you.
    Man losing control to his woman?
    The Dodge Charger will never let you give in completely.
    Man losing spine to shopping girlfriend?
    Electronics are the answer!

    Ugh. Give me back the bikinis and beer. At least there was no exhortation to men to overcome their victimization in that flat-out representation of gender in America.

  39. tinfoil hattie

    larkspur, I wish I could have said or done something. My own years-long experience of child abuse raised its ugly head that night, though, and I just felt sick.

    Sometimes I can confront, sometimes I can’t.

  40. MarianK


    Absolutely agree with you. I get truly disgusted at the moaning-woman convention in the reporting of disasters. It’s also got a racist undertone because Western culture doesn’t tend to practice overt grieving of this sort (which, I understand, is much more healthy than the stoically quiet Western form of grieving). Another similarly exploitive icon is the starving women and child in famine reporting – any male counterpart of this (either with or without a child) is almost non-existent.

  41. nails

    Whenever I have said something to jerk guy in the restaurant he is really confused about what he did. “what? sexist? ME?”. I dunno if I undo any brainwashing on the dates or if it does nothing, but saying nothing seems worse.

  42. mercurialsunshine

    The national hotline for domestic violence is 1-800-799-SAFE. It’s often impossible to give the number to a woman because her abuser would see it, making her situation worse. However, when it’s possible to safely give her the number, I’ve found that most women are happy that someone cares. And if they’re pissed, oh well.

  43. tinfoil hattie

    Yeah, nails, we do what we can do, and we don’t do what we can’t do.

    I am pretty surprised that this episode I described has generated comments with hints of “you should have said something” rather than “what an asshole that guy was.”


  44. agasaya

    Tinfoil Hattie,

    Speaking to the man would have been pointless but taking the woman aside and asking her if she had/needed someplace to go to get away from abuse (emotional/physical) is the way to go. Carry around phone numbers of womens shelters to give out when you observe something this nasty, people. A woman who realizes that, to an impartial observer, that she is being abused might have the necessary epiphany it takes to realize her life is unnatural and undeserved. Speaking truth to power takes a long time to pay off and many die in the interim. Speaking truth to the ignorant being taken advantage of by the powerful offers validation and undermines power.

  45. kristyn

    ”Speaking truth to power takes a long time to pay off and many die in the interim. Speaking truth to the ignorant being taken advantage of by the powerful offers validation and undermines power.”

    This is true, but also, sometimes the ”ignorant” aren’t ignorant — they just have no way out.

    That time I had a hetero ”relationship”, I didn’t even want to in the first place, but he was so violent that at the time I felt I had no choice.
    When he would denigrate or beat me in public, I knew that I was being abused, but had no egress. Sometimes I wished people would step in, just to say they were there for me, but it always ended up a. becoming a weird one-upmanship contest, another way for men to duke out their personal ”possession rights” over my dazed and weeping body; b. winding up in another beating for me, because my expressions of distress had ”made” some other person intervene; or c. left me feeling even more dead inside because I knew someone cared about me but I still couldn’t get out.
    It finally ended when he tried to kill me in public, then tried to kill others who tried to intervene, and the police hauled him away to jail. Other women are not as lucky — they end up dead.

    IBTP, not the people who ”don’t step in.”

    Now back to regularly scheduled blaming.

  46. kristyn

    PS — there are no excuses for the lack of proofreading apparent in my previous comment. Chalk it up to not wanting to write about that and not knowing entirely how to.

    NOW back to business.

  47. speedbudget

    tinfoil hattie: I agree with you. Here in our rape culture, it’s always someone’s fault other than the perpetrator, isn’t it? It’s not incumbent upon us to stop every episode of violence we see. Judging from kristyn’s story (hugs to you hon), things can so sideways in a hurry on you if you do intervene.

    If you happen to be in a bathroom when the female in the situation comes along and you happen to feel strong enough to talk to her, fine. But I don’t see that you are required to intervene, especially if the situation is a trigger for you emotionally.

    Let’s leave the blame squarely where it belongs: On the men’s shoulders.

  48. norbizness

    I don’t like this circus; the cotton candy tastes like crap.

  49. tinfoil hattie

    Thanks, speedbudget. I appreciate that you get what I’m trying to say.

    I have indeed helped women escape abusive situations whenever I could. I know about “domestic” violence hotlines and I know about offering support to someone being abused.

    This was not one of those times. I wish some readers here would trust a woman to know when to intervene and when not to, and, as speedbudget sais, leave the blame on the men’s shoulders.

  50. KittyKat

    “I tell you, Chickadee, I am afraid of people who cannot cry. Tears left unshed turn to poison in the ducts. Ask the next soldier you see enjoying a massacre if this is not so. People who do not cry are victims of soul mutilation paid for in Marlboros and trucks. Resist. Violence does not work except for the man who pays your salary. Who knows if you could still weep you would not take the job”.
    —Alice Walker

    Delphyne – totally agree with the comment about PMT being the only time when one’s life becomes clear. It’s as tho we are on natural anti-depressants the other days of the month, and for those few days we are our “normal” selves.

    I like men, and like to have conversations with them about evolution. And the thing I say to them, which always seems such a surprise, is this: from the 50’s onward everything you were taught was your birthright was yanked out from under you. In the 50’s, it was “2 girls for every boy”, and we obliged by fighting over you and convinced you that having a penis entitled you to our obsessive focus. Then the pill came along, and suddenly it was “2 guys for every girl”, and then “2 girls for every girl”. You boys didn’t know what to do, as suddenly we began asking for more than a penis – we wanted communication, and thoughtfulness, and meeting as equals. While in the tailspin of sex equalizing, Corporate America, the ultimate father figure of patriarchy, changed the social contract with you. Remember “give us your life and we’ll take care of you in retirement”? Well, now it’s “give us your life and oops! We’ll dump you just as you’re getting close to retiring”. Now we see the final collapse of the male inheritance – the American dream of having the big house, BMW, boat, cabin, etc. Whoops, lost your job budddy, aw too bad. Foreclosure”.

    My male friends generally have their jaws on the table when I get done with this. And I say, “you have been lied to and led on for your entire life. What are you going to do about it? And please resist the temptation to blame women – we are your biggest champions to MOVE ON AND FIND YOUR OWN POWER. If you’re smart, you’ll ask us for help”.

    That’s all for now. I’m snowed in today and loving it. Y’all have a great week.

  51. Ames

    Another take on this issue: Sin by Silence. Saw it at a women’s film fest recently; the solidarity in the room that night was deeply heartening.

  52. Val

    Kristyn, how horrible! I’m glad you were able to escape.
    It brought tears to my eyes to read a recent Texas Monthly article about domestic-violence victim Susan Wright:
    [Sorry, it will only allow paid subscribers to read the entire article so let me summarize: SW snapped one night & stabbed her abusive husband to death. She was railroaded into a conviction during a “show trial” in which the prosecutor re-enacted the crime for Court TV & not a single domestic-violence expert was called to testify on her behalf.]
    The only good news is that she’s getting a new trial, having lost 7 yrs of her life…an excellent article by Hollandsworth who never seems to realize he’s writing a manual of misogyny.

  53. Ames

    Re: intervening. Also an awful dilemma when children are being tormented. Will intervening make it worse for the child in the long run? Am I in a place emotionally and -whatever- to be able to take it all on, no matter how far it goes? I’ve jumped in as a reflex and I’ve held back – from some other reflex? As tinfoil hattie says, we have to trust ourselves that we’re doing the best we can, whatever we choose (and always remember that we’re doing so immersed in the insanity that is the patriarchy).

  54. lawbitch

    A gentle reminder that, in most jurisdictions, you have an affirmative duty to report suspected child abuse. You may make an anonymous report.

    One of my relatives told me that she knew that something was wrong during my childhood. She withdrew from the situation, making me even more isolated and childhood abuse continued. I will never feel the same about my relationship with her again. You may be the only voice that a child has. I’m not letting the abuser off the hook. I’m only speaking for the most voiceless members of our society.

  55. Amber

    There are a whole slew of websites/youtube channels out there where those who find it fun to make fun of loved ones to the rest of the world because they want a consensus that it is indeed as funny as they find it rather than stupid and mean as we all here can see it is oh and don’t forget the interweb fame as an added bonus. I blame the patriarchy first and Americas funniest video’s second for making something like watching Grandma fall on her ass or in this instance, a husband making his wife cry a funny exploitation.

    Don’t think you are helping to spread this crap Twisty, rather shinning a spotlight so those of us who are conscious enough can see it for what it really is rather than to allow some nerdy dood justification in laughing at his “crying girl”.

    On the subject of abuse however there is no good answer on if you should intervene? I think fuck that, yes you should, and yes anyone being abused should leave and call the police before you leave and have them help you leave, and if there are children being abused even more so call the police get them taken away, a life in foster care is still better than dealing with being beaten or possibly killed.

    Porn is messed up. If you do something knowing full well you are going to be seen doing it possibly by thousands of men who are watching with the sole purpose to masturbate to it and someone is paying you do this, well then I’m sorry “pornstars” if you can’t see you are being objectified and taken advantage of sad day for you ladies, make sure to wash out your bumhole as you are likely to be sodomised for an extra $1000 woo hoo ladies!

    Question is shall/can anything be done about it? Well what can you do right, if dumb hot with fake boobs need a job and like sex (that’s always their excuse for doing it right) who am I to take that away from them? The problem is how men who watch porn expect sex to be, its like them getting off while their “woman” gets off extremely loudly with every poke grab or butt prod and then is suppose to bath in his spunk like its some kind of sacred body wash, she is to submit to his every whim, when we conscious people know sex has nothing to do with any of this bullshit and porn has everything to do with misogyny and in a lot of cases submissive sodomy.

  56. minervaK

    Sadly, I have to blame from afar on this one, because I can’t watch shit like that, in the same way that I can’t watch animal cruelty videos. It occurs to me that there is more at play here than misogyny — the Person (*cough*) in question would likely post almost anything to solicit the attention he’s obviously been denied by his progenitors, which signifies, to me, that’s he’s got a psychological problem. What drives ME batshit is that this idealogical deformity is considered ‘normal behavior’ where I live.

  57. Ev

    I made the same choice as FemmeForever. I just can’t subject myself to ‘relationships’ with men. My eyes have been well and truly opened. It’s odd because most of my friends pity me and are forever trying to set me up with men, while most of them are either in miserable or abusive relationships themselves.

    I’ve experienced most of what men have to offer – child sexual abuse, rape, domestic violence and prostitution. I consider my decision prefectly rational based on my experiences with men, and I’ve never felt so free in my life. One thing I found is that you often realise how much men actually hate you once you leave. All the pretense falls away. One of my exes calls me ‘the cunt’. Never again.

  58. agasaya


    There is NO question about whether it is best to leave a child in an abusive situation with no one ever hearing about it. Children should not be left untended in abusive hands. A report may not free the child ultimately (and some can stay if they get help)but a report creates a record which can limit the degree of abuse an adult feels free to dish out and there will be monitoring of some kind. Remember, it is legal to beat children in this country – if there is minimal bruising to show for it. I used to work in NYC with a shitload of kids who became brain damaged from abuse that no one ever called anyone about – despite entire neighborhoods knowing about it. Also, kids always remember if anyone in the world cared as they get older. If yes, sometimes they don’t become abusers themselves or seek out abusive relationships as adults because that is all they ever knew. Reporting also get help to a lot of out of control adults who are only identified through reports of cruelty to their kids. I spoke with a lot of abusive parents out of jail and/or rehab trying to regain custody. Some did pretty well.

    The real question is about whether a particular adult has the ability to intervene. That will vary for very good reasons. But, if you can make a choice, stop abuse of children when and if you can – directly, anonymously or through third parties (certain people are mandated reporters so a word in someone’s ear can lead to a report – I was a mandated reporter in my work). Kids have no one but adults to intervene but it doesn’t have to be YOU. Just don’t doubt the need. If things get worse for for a child because a report was made, I guarantee you it would get worse anyway. I’ve seen kids lie about it in ERs to protect the only people they know – their abusers- so it isn’t about their making choices here.

  59. Larkspur

    Tinfoil hattie, I meant to be clear that when it comes to intervention, I do not know what I would do in a particular situation. It depends on how strong I feel, how safe I feel, my spur-of-the-moment assessment of whether or not speaking up will make things worse. All I meant to convey is that I have noticed that as I blunder into late middle age, I am more inclined than ever before to simply speak my mind.

    You were in a sharply, resonantly uncomfortable situation in that restaurant. I have absolutely no criticism of you, and am only glad that you told us about it here, because it’s important that we reflect on this.

    Just to explain a little further: this somewhat obnoxious outspokenness I’m developing pops up in all sorts of situations, mostly of the type that are awkward socially, but not dangerous. Like, “Excuse me! I know you already told your daughter not to play with the food at the salad bar, but she is still doing it, so please get her to stop.”

    Or “No, I am not attempting to steal your dog, but you left her tied up outside the store and it’s fucking raining, so I’m bringing her in under the awning. Also, stop leaving her out in the rain.”

    Or “Hello, flight attendant? Could you please help me change seats? Someone in this section has a bad stomach, and the fumes are pretty overwhelming.”

    You know what I mean? I ought not to have written what I did as a response to your story, and I have folks like speedbudget and ames to thank for mitigating the sting. (Thanks.)

  60. kristyn

    Amber, this was probably not your intent, but you’ve chocked your post full of victim-blaming instead of patriarchy-blaming.

    Why don’t women leave abusive partners? Because if a man’s sense of healthy boundaries is so skewed that he will berate, beat, and/or humiliate his partner, especially in public, then he’s definitely not going to respect her boundaries when she tells him to beat it. He will follow her. He will beg, plead, wheedle, and cajole to get her back. He may kill her. Often, if a woman has been badgered for long enough, she either thinks she deserves no better, or she is so worn down that she’s too exhausted to keep running.

    Why don’t women get the cops to protect them? Because the cops do not give a flying fuck. Nope. Cops are happy to stand by while a man batters and then paralyzes his wife in front of them. They will not help you if you are being murdered, they will not come to your defense if you ask for help. If you are ”only” being verbally abused, bullied, humiliated, made to cry on camera and then mocked, etc., they will laugh at you and tell you to stop wasting their precious time. A PERSON somewhere is being harmed and you are getting in their way.

    Why don’t women take their own kids out of harmful situations? Because then they can be found guilty of kidnapping and placed in prison, leaving their children in the care of their abusers. In less severe cases, they can leave, but still have to share custody with the men who batter them and their kids. Often those children end up dead as well.

    As to why women voluntarily participate in porn, well, I will leave that up to better blamers if they wish to give it a crack. But again, in a system that gives a person so few options, even the shitty options start to look good after a while. So blame the system, blame the men who perpetuate the violence, don’t blame the women who are still mired in all this hatred.

  61. speedbudget

    Larkspur: Thank you for clearing that up. I in no way meant my comment to castigate you. It’s just interesting to me how, even in a Patriarchy Blaming space such as this, we are all quick to jump to the “you should have” mode. I find myself doing that in my head all the time, and I have to actively make myself stop. Because who is really to blame for all this violence? We all know who. We need to keep that in the forefront.

    And good on you for being the voice of those who don’t have one.

    kristyn makes salient points.

  62. mercurialsunshine

    I think I was a bit unclear in my post, and I apologize for that. I posted the hotline number just to get it out there, not to imply that anyone has an obligation to intervene in that type of situation. As I mentioned, and as blamers above have illustrated, often an attempt to step in just makes it worse for the battered woman. It’s a judgment call. (Not that my opinion is particularly important, but just for the record, I think you made the right call, tinfoil hattie. I regularly enjoy your contributions, and I definitely think you have the anti-patriarchy chops to make that type of decision.)

    Also, I do blame that asshole- and all the other assholes- for their actions. More, I blame the fucking patriarchy for setting up a system where there’s a need for a domestic violence hotline, where cops are as likely to arrest a battered woman as to help her, and where countless men batter and rape women without fear of punishment. Even the “good ones” think it’s funny to emotionally abuse their wives and post the evidence on the internet so everyone else can laugh at the stupid little woman.

    Small things like that hotline number comfort me. Blaming the patriarchy is freeing, but it leads me to wonder what else I can do. Telling women that they do not deserve that abuse, and that there’s a way to get help, is something concrete. I posted the number in hopes that other blamers might find comfort in carrying it around in their heads and knowing that, if the opportunity presents itself, they can take a small chunk out of the patriarchy!

  63. nails

    I was going to do a post on my blog about this awhile back, but got a little overwhelmed with school stuff. It was going to be a ‘myths vs realities’ kind of thing with abuse, because people do not seem to understand that abuse actually does something to the behavior and mental state of an abused person. The whole ‘why don’t they leave’ kind of thing, people assuming they are dumb or don’t love their children, etc. People who say stuff like that are always looking at it through the perspective of a person who isn’t experiencing abuse. The assumptions needed to leave that kind of situation, like having a sense of self worth, stability, a perception of efficacy, etc. Being abused by someone interferes with those things within the abused individual as a survival mechanism. A lot of the pain is pushed down until the survivor is in a place safe enough to experience those emotions. Going through the full force of the emotional damage while the threat of abuse or actual abuse continues is something the mind protects against. Most of us would act just like other women who got abused if we were in their shoes, there isn’t an us and them. It is circumstance. Same thing with the porn remarks upthread, I doubt that you or I would have fared better living the lives that women in porn have lived. They are also living with a sort of diminished sense of self to deal with the constant threat of harm from the patriarchy. It is a matter of degrees with different consequences for each woman. Who knows what kind of choices women would make if they had real autonomy?

  64. Kiuku

    Well yea obviously. It’s easy for a lot of people to say, men for instance, who have no problem getting a job and having financial independence, or for most of the bullsh*t they do still have familial support. Women stay in these “relationships” because of financial reasons. No one else made battered support transition homes but radical feminists. The system is designed to keep women available to men as bodies. Women MUST get MARRIED into a relationship with one individual who is bigger than her, and whom society tells over and over is a superior being and it doesn’t matter what they do.

  65. Kiuku

    Men are so messed up and because every woman needs a mate, it insures a certain percentage of women will be abused. Of course, everyone blames the woman. And it sickens me to see white male judges not imposing stiff penalties because “nowadays” women can get out, when the only reason they have even a remote chance is because of the hard work of Radical Feminists. Excuse me, white men, but we’ll tell you w hen women can get out.

    Even when there is no abuse it’s obvious that women stay in these “relationships” ONLY for financial reasons. They marry for financial reasons, and they stay in the relationship for financial reasons.

    Men are ugly. They snore. They are obnoxious. They don’t take care of themselves. They are demanding. They demean you in every way.

    “Oh but I love his quirks”

    She’s full of shi*.

  66. PandanCat


    Every woman needs a male mate? News to me! (I think you mean the P hustles the lie to every woman that she needs a male mate. Blame!)

  67. kristyn

    Also, it’s so much more insidious than that. Hey, look at me, I ended up in a terrible relationship with a man I knew was unstable — even though I was/am a radical feminist who likes women. —

    Because if I didn’t, he was going to hunt me down. And he was going to kill somebody, most likely me. Or himself, in front of me. Or an innocent bystander or two. Or any combination of the above.
    At the time, as I am someone living outside of society with no familial support, it seemed like a better idea to submit than to get killed right off the bat. Or to get someone else killed, or to watch someone else die.
    So instead I watched myself die, in pieces, but honestly, in hindsight I don’t know if I would have chosen to just take the bullet right off the bat as opposed to letting it happen in increments. After all, for whatever it’s worth, I AM still alive.

    Women trapped in abusive relationships are often fully aware of the abuse, and are not passive stupid fools who truly think when he hits or yells or makes her cry it’s just ”a quirk.” Who knows, Crying Lady might even be one of those women who wakes up every day knowing she is in hell with a man who hates her.

    It’s wonderful that there are some radical feminists out there willing to transition women out of these situations.
    But, I repeat, and as nails said so eloquently upthread, even when she has stared the devil in his face and seen him for what he is, the woman often has often no other choice but to stay.

    Or at least there often seems like no other choice.

  68. kristyn

    Also, speedbudget — thank you for the small accolade! Your opinions have long been among those that resonate on a higher plane of truth ‘n common sense for the likes of me.

    The great blamers on this blog have schooled me well, and shaped me from the mouthy punk-rock queer who first arrived here years ago into the fine p-blamin, man-hatin’ rhetorician you see before you now. So thanks again, and please do take the credit for yourselves.

  69. tinfoil hattie

    larkspur, thanks for the words, and I knew you didn’t mean for your comment to be attacking me personally. It’s just that, as steeped as we all are in patriarchy, women can’t ever do the right thing.

    “It’s all good,” as the kids say.

  70. tinfoil hattie

    Re-reading all the comments, I see that one thing we all have in common is: we all want the abuses to stop, and they’re not going to – not with all the hotlines and shelters and interventions in the world. Because we are not free in patriarchy. We don’t have choices. And all the things we can do about abuse are reactive, because we’re not the ones doing the abusing. The only way for abuse to stop is for men to stop abusing. And that ain’t gonna happen in patriarchy. So everything we do is ineffective on the whole.

    And larkspur, I too say and what I think, and not “politely,” more and more as I get older and more experienced. It’s this website and commenters like you and speedbudget and the bewilderness, et. al who have helped me feel stronger and braver. So thanks!

  71. Amananta

    File me under one who won’t watch the videos, nor blame anyone who feels they can’t handle it. There can be a case made easily for either watching or not watching. On the watching side is the “witness” phenomenon, as in saying “I see what you’ve done to your wife and it is sickening and horrific.” On the other hand, since he specifically put it up so that people would watch it, give him attention, and fix this one image of her in their minds, one could argue it is feeding his agenda to watch it. As a secondary concern, those of us who have lived through being abused and humiliated by a partner might find it too triggering and hurtful to watch it happening to someone else. Perhaps I “should” be stronger but I’m not. I have to acknowledge my own scars and take care of myself. It feels selfish to say that but a hard lesson to learn is that being a martyr for “the movement” isn’t doing any good in the long run.

  72. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    I’m with you, Amananta. Bearing witness is important, but the whole mess reminds me of the cruel, stupid people who post pictures of young children screaming in terror when foisted onto Santa’s lap. How anyone can find this sort of thing amusing boggles my mind — it makes me want to heave.

  73. Kiuku

    No not every woman needs a male mate. I don’t need a male mate, because I can make a decent living, atleast for now. But I know that this is not the majority of the case for women who live in poverty, especially if they try to get a male mate as an end to their impoverished state, and they end up pregnant because of having to have sex with him all the time. Most women, even if they have access to education, will, because of their sex and only their sex, make litle more than minimum wage, and will never rise above the poverty line, on their own.

  74. Kiuku

    even the few women that have progressed through their careers, did so because at one time they had financial assistance from a male sexual partner.

  75. Kiuku

    And I’m not saying women can’t enjoy sex, even with men. It’s just not consensual, given the financial imperative of women to hook up with men. I know women aren’t enjoying sex with men. There’s nothing to enjoy. Men think women have orgasms from their penis. They all believe this, which is a testament to both their stupidity and women’s acting skills. It’s all porn, and pain. Yea sometimes she might get off on sex with a male, but with a lot of her own work and what’s the point. So it’s not sex. It’s rape. It’s all rape.

  76. Kiuku

    I read an article recently about how women pay more for nearly anything and everything. Men are often cut breaks, and given promotions when it comes to finances, but there is this strange belief of society, men and women, that women walk around on an invisible atm. Society hates women. Society hates and loathes when women have money, so it is always trying to relieve you of it.

    Men are always trying to rape women, to gain sexual access to a woman’s body by any means necessary. Therefore, men, in many different ways, are always trying to ruin a woman’s life.

    Not only to women face discrimination, at work, but women face men around her who are actively trying to ruin her life, either by harassment, stalking, threats, sabotaging, or spreading rumors, via some insane belief that he might be able to have sex with her at some point in his life, or he might be able to destroy her if he cannot.

    I’d like to hear women’s personal experiences on the men in their life actively trying to ruin her life, while these same men promote the lives of men around them.

  77. Fliss


    Why I ashamedly admire women braving it on the streets more than women with louis vuittons from a slice of their husband’s pay check. But this is exactly what the P is: ensuring the dependence you described is the default state. We live vicariously through a male or not at all/ hated by all.

  78. ivyleaves

    I don’t think this is new. From Abbott and Costello, and The Three Stooges, to America’s Funniest Home Videos, I have felt an aversion to the mean streak in “humor”. UGH, not going to watch.

  79. PandanCat

    Of course it’s not some natural fact that women need a male mate. That sentence just jumped out and poked me in the eye, as it was the premise of a conversation I recently had with a religious fellow. Women in all of the situations listed need a male mate to survive because the P is rigged that way. I certainly know that I’m not the norm when it comes to being successful and romance-free. The things Kiuku describes make me rage because they’re the naturalized norm when it doesn’t have to be that way.

  80. veganrampage

    My hope, wish and immediate instinct was to go to the site, NOT watch the videos, and comment (hopefully en masse with the rest of Blamers) posting domestic violence phone numbers, and tell that husband what a dick in he is in explicit detail.

    This could be done in a way only Blamers have the skills to accomplish.

    If it sickens you as much as you say, then why not at least a leave a comment? I am going to. I am tired of being the sole voice on the idiot sites, but that is where the idiots generally are, not reading IBTP!

    If you do comment on the general moron sites, I beg your pardon, and this remark is aimed at the fruitlessness of not facing evil, because evil is coming for us all. Has come, is here, will stay, and it makes me just as sick, trust me, as it does you. In fact I have paid a damn high price for my rage against the sexist, racist, homophobic, patriarchy and continue to pay each day.

    Kristyn, yes, mighty fine blaming ya done there, if a compliment from me means anything after this post.

  81. veganrampage

    Update on that dickface, from his blog;

    Fox News and Friends Appearance!
    Date Tuesday, February 9, 2010 at 04:49PM

    This asswipe just appeared on the “news” program listed above.

    I am going to log in as Piewackett, because Veganrampage tells him too much true info about me, and he will dismiss me as a nut vegan.

  82. janna

    Gross when men call grown women “girls”.

  83. janna

    Gross when men call grown women “girls”.

  84. veganrampage


    On his blog, not on You Tobe.

    A dick of this magnitude probably moderates any comment he doesn’t like, but on You-tube there is no such function. When my hand recovers from CRAPal tunnel enough, I will continue the onslaught.

    At any rate;
    My log in name- Piewackett
    My Movie Suggestion-
    Get a Divorce

    My Comment-
    You called your wife a girl. Negative 10 points.

    You are proud that Kevin Smith, an insensitive , misogynist asshole mentioned your site and is a fan; Negative 50 points.

    You appeared on Fox “News” and Friends, the home of the Tea Klux Klan and other infamous calumny; Negative 1000 points.

    Conclusion; Your wife Hollie should seek immediate professional counsel and divorce your dumbass ASAP. She is crying because she is repressing the fact that she is married to someone who tapes her when she is crying, and then posts it to the net “all in fun”.
    “Ha Ha” as you cleverly remark through out your blog. Hollie can do better than you with her eyes closed.

  85. Luciole

    Hello !

    Like several other people, I didn’t go to watch the video, but read your description of it. It’s enough for me…

    You are right to denounce this website here, even if it might publicize it even more (I’m not convinced it will, actually.) Lack of respect for others is never okay. That post made me a little mad, and rather sad.

    Keep up the good fight !

    Luciole (a new reader).

  86. pg

    “even the few women that have progressed through their careers, did so because at one time they had financial assistance from a male sexual partner.”

    this is not actually true.

  87. Katie

    If it helps with the queasy, having read this post prepared me to dis this site when it came up in conversation that same day.

  88. Kiuku

    Yes it is completely unnatural but everyone has their blinders on. No one sees poor women in America. The face of poverty is always male, blue collar, when those jobs, unavailable to most women because of discrimination, pay almost twice the salary of a women’s employment.

    This article highlights the fact that on top of discrimination, everything costs more for women, from apartments, to cosmetics:


    Of course the title says “Why” it costs more to be a woman, though it never really explains why.

    The solution, apparently, is to buy men’s products or none at all.

  89. Jane Q Public

    It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to in order to hold women responsible for abuse done to them. Those little nuggets of wisdom that get bandied about to make women accountable for a man’s actions can be tailored to fit any situation.

    “You could have left.”

    “You should have seen this coming.”

    “Didn’t you notice he was like this before you married him?”

    “Something must have happened to set him off.”

    Guess what? IBTP.

  90. Amber

    In my defense I’m not sure all pornstars are victims, Jenna Jamison doesn’t seem to be hard done by the fact she made millions with her body/sex. There are loads of women who “enjoy” it and don’t feel they have “no other options” in fact many of them use it to pay to further educations as do strippers and print pornography models, is it right? Well no but I don’t think a life choice makes you a victim.

    If all women everywhere, at all times can be victims of the patriarchy then yes we are all victims but if a woman makes the decision to get into a seedy industry and in a lot of cases purely for the monetary reasons they are greedy, not poor and not uneducated, they want that Gucci bag, or designer shoes or they want fame as effed up as being a famous porn actress can be. Well I choose not to feel bad for them, call me a victim blamer, they could work at other jobs even if you certainly can’t make as much and I certainly don’t call them a victim, weak in integrity yes, feeble and helpless no.

    Is the thought that a woman should go to the police if she has been abused, especially physically really a bad idea? Maybe Canadian cops are different than American ones, I have no idea, maybe I’m naive that they are suppose to protect all citizens who are victims of domestic abuse. I know for a fact there is a domestic violence department with women working in it that you can call or go down to. In fact in most cases you may need police reports to prove to authorities ie court systems of the abuse, so you can legally prosecute your abuser or so that’s what the women told me in self defense class I took in my early 20’s.

    As an inexperienced blamer I apologize to you all for my inability to allow victims to be able to not take action against men and hence the patriarchy for their own good.

  91. Kiuku

    I disagree with Amber. For Pornography I blame men, for there being an intense market for the degradation of women, for men having the money to be able to pay for the degradation of women, and for men having the jobs to be able to pay for the degradation of women. I blame men’s salaries, upon which an entire family used to thrive, wherein he has enough for a girlfriend and a whore on the side, but a woman’s salary, in the same job, can barely afford her own way.

    I don’t blame women who go into one of the only industries where they can make money. It’s not greed. It’s survival. Until women can become CEO’s, there is prostitution.

  92. Kiuku

    In a lot of ways, I think the decision to be a prostitute, or a porn star, or a stripper, is a lot better than the decision to involve oneself with a man romantically, in sexual dating or marriage. In fact, I can almost blame women who become married, and I cannot find any fault at all in a whore.

  93. SargassoSea

    @ Amber

    “…I don’t think a life choice makes you a victim.”

    When it comes to *elective* exploitation: maybe it doesn’t make ‘you’ a victim, but your ‘life choice’ weights the infrastructure that crushes millions of others.

    At best.

  94. Laughingrat

    Amber’s remarks about “pornstars” reveal a lot about mainstream culture’s attitude towards the porn industry. It seems to me that I’ve heard all these tropes before, too. For instance, note the division between women who enter the porn industry because they’re “greedy” vs. women who enter it because of obvious economic necessity. Patriarchy can only have sympathy for its whores if they’re suffering whores–and even then, not enough sympathy to actually end prostitution, but just enough to give the sympathizer a warm glow of condescension. If the bitches *asked* for it by entering sex-work willingly, well, they have only themselves to blame, right? Not, for instance, an overarching system of domination and submission which declares women’s bodies to be objects designated for sexual use by men.

    And speaking of “greedy,” how dare those trashy sluts want consumer goods! The problem is their *greed*, clearly, not an exploitive capitalist system where one is judged based on the cachet of one’s belongings, and where the best products, foods, housing, clothing, legal protections, etc. are reserved for the wealthy.

    Never mind, of course, that men who want those things are considered “enterprising,” not greedy. They’re go-getters. They’re just trying to make their lives better, you know? And of course, there’s no system, ready and waiting, offering to “let” them sell their bodies in order to achieve those financial goals. No, that only exists for women’s bodies, not men’s. Women’s bodies are sellable; women’s bodies are objects designated for penetration and exploitation. Men’s bodies are holy, whole, impermeable, not-for-sale.

    Really, all this talk about whether or not sex-workers are all victims, or all equally victims, or whether some are victims and some are “just greedy,” or whatever, is just a convenient diversion from the real culprit: Patriarchy.

  95. Amber

    Very well so there is no way for porn to be brought down unless women involved stop making it, therefore women contribute they may not be the cause but they do facilitate, I watched the interview with Jenna Jamison who said it empowered her, watch it if you want http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4lYhBYiPd0

  96. Kiuku

    Sargasso, can it even be called a choice? If I like strawberry icecream and there is only chocolate and vanilla, that’s not the best option, and vanilla wouldn’t be the best choice, but it’s still a choice. Yet, what happens when the options are limited even further. It’s not a choice. It’s not free will. When women have equal access to jobs, when things don’t cost more for women, when the products are equal, and when women are no longer compelled to spend money on beauty, then I would say women have choices.

    This is a philosophical argument, and as far as I know I was the first to explain it in 05. This isn’t descarte’s evil demiurge or a genetic predispotion that creates fate, wherein there are no choices. There are no choices for women because there are no options and no opportunities for women, which are necessary for both choice and free will. So morality cannot be applied to the oppressed in the same way that it can be applied to people who have options.

    Women’s choices don’t say a goddamn thing about her, as a person, in the same way that my choice of vanilla icecream says less about me than if strawberry icecream were available.

  97. Kiuku

    I mean not only do women’s products cost more, but they always fall apart. Anyone notice that? you’ll spend 50-80-100 dollars for a pair of jeans or 40 dollars for a flimsy shirt that falls apart in a year. I bought a pair of women’s suit pants for 70 that were the best i could find at the time, that fell apart in a month.

  98. SargassoSea

    Kiuku –


  99. kristyn

    Amber, honey, you make my hair burn a little. Did you even read what I wrote, about how cops treat women? About how cops treated me?

    Did you read what others have written? Please do so, and then think about it. Think about it real, real hard, and stop being angry at, blaming, and hating other women.

    Also, you basically told me I chose to be a victim. Not very original. The cops said that to me as well. Thanks, I need to go throw up my supper now.

    It’s okay, nobody is angry at you, except me a little bit re, ”choosing to be a victim” but I guess I asked for that one and I understand why you think that way.
    Just stick around if you want to be schooled in MAN-blaming rhetoric, because the blamers here are top-notch.

  100. Carolyn

    even the few women that have progressed through their careers, did so because at one time they had financial assistance from a male sexual partner.

    Where did this idea come from? I don’t really know any cases where that’s true–certainly not in mine; while I definitely had genetic and environmental advantages I obtained my education and career as much on my own as anyone can. If anything, my male sexual partners have actually retarded my educational and career progress. As far as I can make out, it’s far more typical that women support men in their educational and career progress, by taking care of them while they work or study, by contributing cash from their own jobs or other sources to their men’s support, and by helping them or even doing their work for them (I think I’ve written here in another context that I find it heartbreaking how many introductions/acknowledgements of academic books by male authors end ‘and thank you to my dear wife, who helped with the research, rewrote several chapters, and edited and typed the manuscript’–but of course doesn’t deserve the credit of co-authorship).

  101. Boad

    Amber, you need to read like every article on this website, and only then come back here to comment. You don’t understand victim blaming in the slightest if you’re using Jenna Jameson saying porn empowered her (empowerfulized…) as evidence that pornstars are digging their own graves. Maybe you wouldn’t choose sex work as a career, but maybe they wouldn’t choose… whatever it is you do as a career. There are limited options anyway, and blaming women for making the crappy choices they need to make to survive in this world is counter-productive.

    Also, kristyn, seeing you call her ‘honey’ made *my* hair burn a little. But maybe that was the intent.

  102. kristyn

    Re, patronizing language — Yeah, that was shitty of me, and I apologize. I was a little angry and trying to temper it, but using that word on another woman is, in fact, just being another tool of the good ol’ P.

  103. Tomecat

    @ Oaktown Girl:

    It seems Tim Tebow is being lauded for his “courage” in this matter and is being compared to athletes in the past who showed real courage and faced major consequences for doing so. Dave Zirin does an excellent job dismantling this bullshit, and is a must read, even for non-sports fans.

    Not a terrible job, but I notice that Zirin conveniently ignored the fact that Tebow’s mother risked her own life, by her own choice. Tebow survived because of her courage, not his own. IBTP

  104. Lara

    “In a lot of ways, I think the decision to be a prostitute, or a porn star, or a stripper, is a lot better than the decision to involve oneself with a man romantically, in sexual dating or marriage. In fact, I can almost blame women who become married, and I cannot find any fault at all in a whore.”

    Kiuku, as a hetero woman I will say right now that I would much rather stay with my boyfriend than be abused by a bunch of disgusting, entitled older men who want to release all of their hatred on a woman of lower-class status. Prostitutes and other “sex workers” are generally treated even more like shit than a lot of women who are not “sex workers” because the law illegalizes and demonizes what the female “sex workers” do, and NOT what the male “clients”/abusers do (i.e. demanding women’s bodies are for sale).

    And thanks to Jill for being brave enough to watch through that horrible video/website. I’ll keep my dinner in my stomach for tonight by NOT visiting the site. That stuff fucks with my head on an inconceivable level.

  105. Ayla

    Kiuku’s statement seems to be pretty in line with the Global Accords Governing Fair Use of Women in that it places women in a arbitrary hierarchy according to how many men they fuck.

  106. Ayla

    That should, of course, have said “AN arbitrary hierarchy.”


  107. speedbudget

    I’ve been wondering about the comment about women getting where they are only through the help of men as well. While I was lucky enough to have two supportive parents growing up, they could only afford to give each of us about $1,000 per regular semester of school. That paid for, what, two or three books. The rest I had to come up with. I worked a thirty-hour workweek in college and used student loans to pay the rest. UNSUBSIDIZED student loans. I went back to college a couple times, trying to get degrees that would be useful to a career. I finally found court reporting, so I had to go back to school for that. I had to spend the equivalent of buying a brand new Kia in order to even start this job on top of the loans I had to take out for that school. I did all this on my own. Please don’t deny the fact that many, many sisters are doing it for themselves.

    As for porn being empowerful, HA. It’s still on men’s terms, isn’t it? It’s still by men, for men, at men, with men. Jenna Jamison might feel empowerful, but if she tried to set the parameters of what she would or wouldn’t do or how the film was cut or what scenes were in it….I’m laughing thinking of that. Porn exists for male consumption. It is all about the men. It is paid degradation of women, much as prostitution is paid ownership of women.

    Okay. I feel a little better getting all that off my chest.

  108. Shopstewardess

    Speedbudget, congratulations on doing it for yourself.

    Part of the reason why domestic violence so often seems to elicit a response which blames the victim for putting up with it is that the term itself, “domestic violence”, only describes the tip of the iceberg. The usual progression is that a sufferer is first groomed, then bullied, and then emotionally tortured, before (or alongside) the physical violence. The physical violence part of this process, which is all most people see and understand, comes in an entirely different context from that of random violence by a stranger coming out of the blue. In the context of this whole process, the fact that a sufferer’s response may be different from the response to stranger violence becomes more readily understandable.

    If this whole process was given an appropriate name, rather than using a name which in truth only applies to the final and most visible part of the process, there might be less misunderstanding of what is really going on, and less inclination to blame the victim.

    Perhaps the blametariat can find the right name for the whole process (or let me know if it’s already been coined)? Domestic torture? Familial torture? Any ideas?

  109. arlene

    “In a lot of ways, I think the decision to be a prostitute, or a porn star, or a stripper, is a lot better than the decision to involve oneself with a man romantically, in sexual dating or marriage. In fact, I can almost blame women who become married, and I cannot find any fault at all in a whore.”

    Why ‘blame’ either group? I am married to a good kind supportive man, and I have been a prostitue. Trust me, the latter is no life for anyone and there was very little ‘decision’ involved in it. Just the decision not to let me or my infant daughter starve.

  110. Jezebella

    Speedbudget: word. No man I’ve been involved with has been responsible for my education or career advancement. Several have done a fine job of sabotaging my progress career-wise. In my life, I see more women’s careers damaged by unsupportive male partners than aided and abetted. So this “no woman can get anywhere without a male partner” business is a load of tosh.

  111. procrastinatrix

    Re: Tebow’s mum’s supposed choice. As many before me have pointed out, she was living in the Philippines at the time, where abortion was and still is illegal. So the entire premise of the ad is a lie. No choice whatsoever was involved. No surprise about false premises in “pro-life” advertising.

  112. snow black

    Shopstewardess: “If this whole process was given an appropriate name, rather than using a name which in truth only applies to the final and most visible part of the process [insert dreaded ellipses here]”

    Oh yes. When I was coming out of the fog created by the grooming, bullying, and emotional torment inflicted by my ex-husband, I found the name “soul murder” for what had happened to me.

    It’s very important to name it. For those of us who were never physically forced, in order to claim the imperative to reverse what happened to us; for those who were, in order to understand and explain why our response to violence was what it was.

    Anyway, I hate the term “domestic violence.” In what universe is it less of a crime to hit someone because they love you?

  113. Laughingrat

    Wasn’t part of Kiuku’s point that women are often forced by economic circumstances to engage in relationships with men? While the proposal that all women achieved career/economic advancement only through men is kind of extreme, there are definitely women out there who are in relationships solely because they would be destitute or homeless otherwise. Naturally, IBTP.

  114. Amber

    Sorry to make your hair burn everyone, I have actually read a lot of the articles, scum manifesto included and many of your comments here before I chose to comment.

    Some background on me, I had been raped when I was a teen and I went to the police for assistance so I know first hand how our legal system works in these instances, my rapist went to jail.

    If we’re only here to blame men and no woman within the patriarchy is held responsible for facilitating it, with or without her knowledge, I will from now forward keep my comments in that context.

    I didn’t get an iota if help from anyone to go to school or pay my loans back. I’m an independent woman who learned at 19 that men can be a huge detriment to fulfilling your dreams. My story is I had a kid with a guy, I worked in food service and he got a job at 7-11. Then he slept with my babysitter who was a very close friend and did drugs with her when they were suppose to be taking care of our child. So I had to kick him out, fire my sitter and end up on social assistance because I had to stay home as I had no child care. Then I pick myself up in just 9 months, dusted my dreams off and followed my game plan all on MY OWN to succeed in life, I paid back 20k in student loans on MY OWN and got a decent job all on MY OWN. How does the saying go a woman needs a man about as much as a fish needs a bicycle was my motto.

    Since I have met a man who is great, I love him dearly we have a wonderful life and family together, but does not support me or my kid monetarily at all, because I don’t want him to, I like things to be equal. So some of us can participate in the patriarchy without hating ALL men even if we’ve been fucked over by a few of them, and though it feels great to blame being strong and independent, and telling ALL women they can be too, is the best way to get under the patriarchies skin IMHO.

  115. Fliss

    Re porn. Went onto a site yesterday for research (nothing there for me anyway: ‘Old fat man with hot teen’; ‘Sexy female doctors get battered’). It reminded me of ‘Happy Slapping’ videos but instead the woman is made to smile at the camera, and is given the victim role as norm, as opposed to being a genuine victim. It’s surreal, only seen for what it is in this blog and reality blip in the universe.

    ‘It is paid degradation of women, much as prostitution is paid ownership of women.’

    Thisss. No wonder men cry at most women and end up beating women IRL, they live on a diet of delusion where women are despised trashcans and ‘willing’.

  116. Kiuku

    Exactly, Laughingrat.

  117. Kiuku

    In my experience it has been the strippers and the prostitutes that get it. They get the system. Everyone has a different degree of tolerance for poverty and destitution and life in destitution. It makes you vulnerable. You could die anyday. I’ve never seen a stripper or a prostitute look down on another woman for the choices she has made in the patriarchy. But i can almost look down on women that get married as a way out of destitution, but only if they look down on women who are poor and cannot see that the reason they are not poor is because they have male investment.

    I can’t claim to know every woman’s story, but I know what the majority of women’s story in the Patriarchy is. I know that. I know that women are destitute without male involvement. It’s designed that way, and what bothers me is women who are married, have a roof over their heads, or other support from male sexual partners, consider themselves above women who are poor or above prostitutes.

    Now if you’re not getting financial assistance from a male, and you really are braving and suffering in destitution, as would be the -likely- case, and I’m talking democratically how life for women is in the Patriarchy, then sure that’s different. But really be honest about it. The worst thing is women who appear to be successful only because they’ve got a man, and they tell women that this is the golden age of women’s opportunities. It isn’t. Successful women are few and far inbetween, and those without male contribution are even slimmer. Sure, they exist, but don’t hold all women to that standard.

    And I would never fault a woman for not wanting to be destitute, and choosing prostitution, porn, or stripping as an alternattive, just as much as I don’t fault women for getting married.

  118. Kiuku

    I have to seriously wonder whether it is environmental or something inherent in men. I see that it, misogyny, is getting worse, as women’s opportunities and rights are recognized. It’s a hatred, and a narcissism of men.

    They try to say that it is because of the degrees women attain, or because of their life choices, but when men had those degrees it was fine, and when men make those choices, it’s not a problem at all.

    The interest follows men, and what men do. When a women do it, it is something that quickly loses interest in the population, and thus the economy. Like figure skating, once a male and female sport, but now, because of women’s fame in figure skating, it is no longer popular.

    Degrees are no longer popular, and education is no longer popular, because women are the ones getting the majority of higher degrees. Maybe it seemed so difficult, to become educated, when only men were educating men, because men are generally more dumb than women.

    But back to whether it is environmental or inherent. Men seem to inherantly hate women, and the drive to destroy a woman that is not or no longer a sexual partner, is apparent in both primitive and modern cultures. The lack of interest of men, men’s narcissim toward themselves and their lack of interest in women is also apparent, as well as their jealously over the biological function of a woman.

  119. Carolyn

    Hi Kiuku–you’re absolutely right that a lot of women in our culture have a better physical standard of living if they’re married than if they support themselves, but a lot of us are doing fine on our own–we’re by no means destitute!–and we don’t look down on or blame women who’ve made different choices than we have. In addition, married women support their male partners in a way that virtually no woman is supported, which allows typical married men to be successful workers and high earners (I’ve always said a woman’s work week should be four days; the extra day is the day we need to do the things for ourselves that women do for men–and I do only work four days a week, as I’ve made that clear to employers!).

    I also agree with you that misogyny seems to have increased over my lifetime, or at least become more overt. I think this video is a great help in understanding what’s going on with men trying to work out where their privilege is no longer invisible:


    (If you click ‘view full length preview’ you can see it all without buying it.)

  120. Felicity

    Kiuku you should read Scum Manifesto for a few answers, Salonas talks about jealousy. Male default, they perceive themselves to be inferior, any progress by woman is a serious threat. So a woman needs to be inferior to be ‘equal’ to men, vastly inferior.

    I see what you mean about the vile hatred towards women coming from nowhere. I see it as a personality disorder – like narcissism – too. The personality disorders listed in the DSM don’t cover the many many different disorders there are and how they can involve specific people. A person’s personality disorder can revolve wholly around an individual, celeb or status of another (as in the case of men).

    What males have is a serious personality disorder towards women. Over time, across the history books with all the concentrated effort and bile produced in an effort to appease their sorry state, behavioural dynamics between men and women created by centuries of people acting around this disorder – women’s dependence, inferiority, submission to men becomes the norm. Questioned only by radfems in the midst of insanity.

  121. nails

    Jenna Jameson should never be used as an example ever again. She has a lot of money. But I also wonder how many women set out to be successful like her and ended up with nothing. The fact that the policy on AIDS in the porn industry is damage control rather than prevention makes me think that the sex industry treats employees like total shit. It is hard to be empowered when you are getting exposed to STI’s, especially when your pay will go down or you will get fired for wanting protection from getting diseases.

    Anyway. Jenna Jameson. I don’t know if anyone noticed, but she absolutely quit doing scenes with men when she had enough power to call the shots. What do we call all that sex she had with men before she was able to say no to it in her career? It is somewhere icky on that rape continuum women experience in a patriarchy.

    Her freaky dieting/cosmetic surgery thing makes me think she has some serious mental health problems that need addressing as well.

  122. yttik

    “I have to seriously wonder whether it is environmental or something inherent in men.”

    It’s nurture, culture, and the way the message is reinforced all their lives. Anybody who grows up with a sense of entitlement, free of responsibility, taught the whole world revolves around them, will be pretty unpleasant to be around.

    If you ever watch kids who are out of control, have too much power, they hate their parents, despise them. The more you give a kid like that, the more they hate you.

    Not trying to compare men to kids or women to parents, it’s just an example of how human beings respond to their environment.

  123. PandanCat

    Regarding words to use instead of ‘domestic violence’ — the Malay term, keganasan rumah tangga, could be translated as domestic/home terrorism.

    I was pleasantly surprised by the government-approved official dictionary’s sample sentence for the transitive form menganasi: “Women must be treated as human, just like men, and men must not terrorize them.” The rest of the examples for that root were about thugs, communists and tigers.

  124. Katherine

    Her freaky dieting/cosmetic surgery thing makes me think she has some serious mental health problems that need addressing as well.

    Reading her (ghost written) autobiography is something of an education on that front. Unqualified diagnosis of mental problems is arseholish at best, but damn that woman has had a shitty life.

  125. niki

    All of the guys I ever dated with the exception of two were broke-ass and cost me more than they ever helped me, financially speaking. I make more money and have a better life being single than I ever did tethered in any way to a d00d and I’m a teacher, not a porn star. Sure, I’m not buying Gucci handbags, but for some reason I don’t feel I’m missing out on the finer things in life.

  126. yttik

    I think both can be true. Financially secure women can deny the benefits of being attached to a man, and go on to lecture everyone else about how easy it is to become financially “independent.” Easy to say if your parents put you thru college, left you an inheritance, and your have a supportive husband.

    On the other hand, there are plenty of women who have been sold the idea that they need a man to prop them up, when in reality he’s the one sucking them dry. I know several women who are “supported” by men financially and yet when you take a hard look at the situation, he works part time to pay for his guitar strings, she pays all the bills. He lives off her school grants and calls her his “dependent.” The examples are endless.

  127. K

    I have a thirteen year old daughter. She is in middle school. This week in social studies they were discussing the social contract, societal rules, etc. As an assignment the teacher asked these 13-14 year olds to imagine a world without any rules and to do a drawing of that world. Most of the boys drew pictures of a completely pornified world with pole dancers everywhere, depictions of rape, every woman naked (some crawling on hands and knees) and a host of other violent/demeaning things. I shit you not. Anyone who thinks that porn is ‘harmless’ should ask a middle school girl her opinion and she’ll be glad to tell you about all the “porn pervs” (her phrase) and their sense of entitlement.

  128. Felicity

    Yttik: ‘It’s nurture, culture, and the way the message is reinforced all their lives.’

    I was reading the facebook profile of my brother’s wife – she’s just had a 20 week scan and has found out it’s a boy. So all the comments on her status are to the effect of ‘Yayy. Boys are so much better :)’. I see what you mean about the effect of nurture before boys have chance to come out the womb.

  129. delphyne

    The problem for Jameson is that her husband was her pimp.

    That’s pretty much the long and the short of it. He sold her out, kept the rights to her movies and then promoted her as the business frontwoman so everybody thought her porn career was down to her. If your husband is selling you where else do you have to turn?

    Which I guess brings us right back to the husband/pimp and his crying wife.

  130. katipo

    Thanks for taking a hit for the team and enabling us to take the high road.

  131. Jezebella

    “he works part time to pay for his guitar strings, she pays all the bills. He lives off her school grants and calls her his “dependent.”

    yttik, you didn’t happen to live in San Antonio in the late 80s, did you? And by “San Antonio,” I mean “in my house.”

    Criminy, how widespread IS this phenomenon? On the plus side, I feel like less of a schmuck knowing I’m not the only one who fell for that scam.

  132. Colleen

    I know my post on here is probably going to be attacked, but I looked at the site from an unbiased point of view. I even took the time to read their blog. From what I saw, he’s actually a really nice guy. I’m not defending him; I’m just pointing out my views on this. Apparently they are both highly involved in their church and have been supporting a number of causes locally and worldwide. They actually look like really sweet kids.

    Would I ever want my husband to post videos of me crying? Heck no! But that’s because I would be embarrassed. This wife (holly) has more confidence than I do. I don’t really see it as exploitation because no one is being taken advantage of. If you read their blog they are both very shocked by the popularity of the videos and the site was created to dispel misconceptions that might arise (as they should).

    Personally, I think you’re being too harsh on these two. For those of you who wont take the time to investigate yourselves, you’re opinions on the matter can’t be taken seriously. I’m just saying that in all fairness, you have brains and should look at everything without a basis and make conclusions on your own. I feel like I’m the only one here that actually took my time to do research before throwing stones.

    I kind of lost my respect for this blog and probably wont be coming back. Sorry. You’re just too much of a stereotype and you’re contributing nothing but negativity in the world. Again, sorry.


  133. Margaret

    Sucking them dry under the guise of supporting them, yes! Not a rare phenomenon at all judging from occasional glimpses of people’s court shows on TV. Here’s an old line from the 1970’s or 80’s:

    “Behind every successful woman is a man who tried to stop her”.

  134. FemmeForever

    there are plenty of women who have been sold the idea that they need a man to prop them up, when in reality he’s the one sucking them dry

    I make more money and have a better life being single than I ever did tethered in any way to a d00d

    Say, Hallelujah! Have you heard the phrase “I can do bad all by myself”? Not. The correct phrase should be “I can do much better all by myself”.

  135. tinfoil hattie

    “Women must be treated as human, just like men, and men must not terrorize them.”

    Just like men. The default human!

    Amber, I invite you to watch the documentary “Every Day of my F—ing Life” and then come back here and explain how abused women “should leave.”

    And keep reading the archives here. You’re still missing the point.

  136. PandanCat

    tinfoil hattie — heh. For being in an official, high-culture government publication, though, it was pretty lobe-blowing. Imagine! This dictionary is going to be in libraries and schools! What kind of cockamamie ideas are the youth going to get?

  137. Jodie

    Jezebella, it’s pretty damn widespread judging by my experience and that of many of my friends.

  138. Ayla

    damn I wish IBTP had a chatroom or some such. I could REALLY use a radfem to vent with right now.


  139. yttik

    On the subject of you tube videos, don’t miss “women’s last stand”, a spoof on the recent Dodge superbowl commercial in which men list how they are oppressed by being forced to do things like put the toliet seat down or take the dog for a walk.


  140. Saphire

    Just seen that youtube vid. Good video, but reading the comments makes me glad I don’t take the media, internet commenting (anywhere other than here) and any other outlet of opinion seriously. I think those men would die to be taken seriously, in their little e-armies. It makes me laugh at their attempt at logic in response to these things, when all you hear is ‘shut up bitch’. Talk about the ‘beta’ male being responsible for the backlash.

  141. kristyn

    Thanks for stepping in, tinfoil hattie.

    Perhaps others in the blametariat are different, but this blamer always feels a little sore when fellow women consistently miss the point. I know why they do it, and it’s not like any of us are ever 100 percent patriarchy-free anyway, but it still hurts.

    At least with men it’s a given, and can be expected.

  142. Valerie

    Hello All-
    Didn’t watch the “crying” video and never will. I don’t want to feed the binary pink/blue beast but I appreciate being informed about it. Thank you for treading where I dare not.
    It seems that people ridicule what they can’t or don’t have. It sounds like this man is deeply jealous of the wife’s ability to feel so deeply and openly. I believe she lives in freedom. She isn’t ashamed of emotions.
    What he doesn’t realize is that he is feeling something, jealousy.

    Text book reaction of a toddler. He wants her to feel as ashamed of crying as he would because he’s jealous.

    I’m confident the day will come when her belief in herself will either change him or more likely she will get fed up with such an emotional toddler. One can only live with that negativity for so long.

  143. V.


    Making it “on my own” in the patriarchy (obligatory sarcasm.)

    I am the first woman in my family to own her own home.

    Except I bought it with the money from my divorce settlement.

    I made it out of my marriage with a monetary settlement largely through education and class status, which I purchased through the remnants of generational money.

    The reason there is any inherited wealth obtaining to any women in my family?

    My grandfather dowried his daughters each with a business when they married. Or should I say, dowried her husbands?

    My grandmother made sure her husband didn’t run the business into the ground.

    (She got the rep as a bitch in the family mythos, and he got to be the nice guy. We know who to blame for that.)

    I’m acutely aware that making it ‘on my own’ in the patriarchy is a myth, and that my bootstraps were purchased by the work of my grandmother and great-grandmother. Some of their work was done on their backs, because sex-work is sex-work, even with a marriage license.

    That the you-Tube gal with the sneering dOOd for a husband has to sell her dignity along with her body is not surprising.

  144. Saphire

    ‘Apparently they are both highly involved in their church and have been supporting a number of causes locally and worldwide. They actually look like really sweet kids.’

    Colleeen! Hello and goodbye. First of all, I have no respect for people who go to church. And supporting ’causes’ whatever they may be doesn’t hide what this sicko does behind closed doors to mock his wife, then publish it internationally. That’s bullying no matter how much money he puts in a pot for a dead Nazareth. Here’s my negativity, required because of your vast misunderstanding of this blog and this man’s psychopathic ventures: ‘Go away, stay away.’

  145. Jill

    Amber, your views on pornography are somewhat unsophisticated.

    Colleen, your views on exploitation are somewhat unsophisticated. As are your views on “church.”

    You are both apparently unaware that the comments section is reserved for advanced patriarchy-blamers.

  146. Jill

    “damn I wish IBTP had a chatroom or some such”

    Somebody has started an IBTP group on Facebook. I take issue with the lack of capitalization in the title, so I don’t frequent it personally, but maybe there are some less rigid radfems on it.

  147. Carolyn

    Valerie–interesting point, thanks for putting it out there. I’ll remember to think/say that next time I hear anyone giving someone shit for being emotional

  148. tinfoil hattie


    tinfoilhattie @ gmail

    Feel free.

  149. jael

    Somebody has started an IBTP group on Facebook. I take issue with the lack of capitalization in the title, so I don’t frequent it personally, but maybe there are some less rigid radfems on it.

    you mean you’re not bringing the forum back?


  150. Jill

    “you mean you’re not bringing the forum back? “

    Ha! Good one.

  151. Embee


    Loving this website yet again for the feeling of community and for the elucidation.

    Was married 10+ years to an emotional toddler–and a damned mean one at that. Did the grooming thing (he had the assistance of the US Army, “hoo-ah”). I have paid attention in the intervening 4 years since my divorce on many of these subjects.

    Intervening in public: X would beome enraged with me if I teared up in public because he thought everyone was seeing his abuse. Ironically, I never beame emotional at his abuse, but I am quite moved to tears by watching older or physically/mentally impaired diners be ignored by waitstaff. probably projection of my own helplessness but anyhoodle…

    Grooming/Choice to Leave: I heard a piece on NPR recently regarding France’s attmpt to make emotional abuse illegal (the sweet irony was this story aired on my X’s birthday). A quote from the interview, “We are actually programmed to believe what people we love say and how they treat us, to be about us. I call it the mirror of love. The only way you know how lovable you are, and how valuable your love is to other people, is by interacting with people you love.” Bingo. Dead on. This is why women don’t leave abusinve relationships. Steve Sosny is the author/expert by the way. he also explains how the cycle works from the male perspective, which is that man feels like shit for hurting woman he loves and because he has further deomnstrated his inferiority by abusing, he has to tear her down further with more abuse. This is not defending them – I am simply pointing out how profoundly and increasingly stupid and inferior men are.

    Financial Support: I was completely dependent on him while he was in the Army. We moved constantly and I was routinely unemployed or massively, degradingly underemployed. After the Army I put him through grad school (although we had agreed years earlier I would go first, he insisted and I believed I was unworthy because I had never had a “real job”). I realized sometime between his first and second year of B school that I hated him, but stayed in the marriage because I was damned well going to make sure he paid for/supported my law school education after all I had invested in him. So, I was (consciously) a prostitute for the following 5 years of my marriage. I don’t blame myself for using him and I don’t blame a prostitute with more clients. IBTP. Unsurprisingly, he became increasingly violent as my graduation approached and I began my extremely promising career. Still didn’t leave until he had an affair (initiated, not so ironically, upon my admittance to the Bar). I left because I finally felt I had something I could point to and say “he’s wrong”. You know, because the nightly rapes (oh, how he loved to inflict pain on my cervix – he was soooooooo big, you see!) and constant degradation weren’t reason enough.

    Just wanted to share to reinforce how fucking common these assholes are, how their game is textbook and how (according to Sosny) it IS only getting worse.


  152. FemmeForever

    Thank you for sharing, Embee.

    What a survivor you are. I’m so sorry you had to live through that. I bet getting that first attorney paycheck was joyous beyond all imagining. Congratulations on getting out and making a good life for yourself.

  153. jezebella

    Cheesus, embee, what a life! Good on you for living to tell the tale, thriving & surviving.

  154. Carolyn

    I’m glad I’m coming back to read this thread periodically–I’ve just learned another new thing. Embee, I never really put the pieces together to realise that if you have to keep moving to follow your man you’ll never be in a position to establish a career, or even just hold down a job, no matter how talented or educated you might be, and thus by definition you’ll be financially dependent (but thank god you were able to establish yourself at last).

    A year or so ago I had the idea for some research (which I’ll put out there in case anyone else wants to follow through; I still haven’t) that being ‘overqualified’ for a job you apply for is gendered–from anecdotal evidence men are rarely (if ever, and I suspect never) told this, but women often are. There seem to be several reasons why, but as someone pointed out to me the main reason is probably that women who are forced or obligated to live where their male partners live, for their male partners’ jobs, are stuck applying for whatever job they can get where they are regardless of what they might be qualified to do. (Anyone who’s interested in what I’ve already determined about this issue can write me through my website–I’d love to see a real social scientist follow up on this someday.)

  155. agasaya

    The concept of ‘overqualified’ began with men and is still a large problem. No one ever thought of women as overqualified because no one cared about underpaying a woman for doing a job she might later quit for a better one. “Better” was unlikely to be found.

    Workers now hold an average of ten jobs prior to retiring (Dept of labor stats) so ‘overqualified’ is common as people take what they can get. Employers send better paid experienced employees packing all the time because there are always more where they came from and cheaper too.

    When it comes to money, everyone is victimized under the corporatocracy.

  156. Amber


    I’m glad you put it in perspective, I’m far too unsophisticated for you superior man haters. Good luck changing the world when the only understanding one can take away from every single thing you all say is that the bad man/men did it. I might not be an advanced man hater which is why you don’t like me but seriously grow up yourselves, living in hate will destroy you and leave you with nothing but becoming what you hate most, a bitter egotist. If you identify with a mental position, then if you are wrong, your mind-based sense of self is seriously threatened with annihilation. So you as the ego cannot afford to be wrong. To be wrong is to die. Wars have been fought over this.

    Here is a little unsophisticated advice, through forgiveness, which essentially means recognizing the insubstantiality of the past and allowing the present moment to be as it is, only then does the transformation happen not only within but also without. If you are always against someone ie men you will never effect the change you so desperately want, hate begets hate, its extremely scary how poorly you all think of women, as all victims and only victims. It is you all who are stereo typing women.

    I like Colleen will not be back, have fun with your us against them mentality war, see us women are instigating war too, I really hope it all works out for you to influence what you hate so much ie existing in society with men. There are good men, I know many and we should be working with them to create the world we all want, it makes you look small not to see that. Good to see you cannot even take a single opposing comment in stride. I know you wont let this be posted but I had to say this to you.

    I beleive in equality, I believe we women something wonderful, strong and powerful and it has nothing to do with men at all, many of us do this all on our own by who we are and blaming someone never does anything but allow you to feel helpless. What you are doing here is kinda petty and self serving, I guess that’s the life of a femminazi in the blogosphere though. I wish you luck in the man hating sister, I think you were hurt too badly to ever forgive but I’m sure drawing attention these things brings you much happiness.

  157. Laughingrat


    You spelled “feminazi” wrong.

  158. Saphire

    Amber really went crazy with the emotionally charged babble insight about this blog there.

    You’re right though, Amber, a patriarchy doesn’t exist, we have no right to be angry. And men are gentle souls if we could only see. If we can’t see – then it’s important to LIVE A LIE! Just how everyone calls feminists angry – ‘Can’t you be happy! Bleach your butthole, just be happy guys!’ Ignorance is bliss, defending the privileged (who are nice at times to us, after all) is the way forward! Accept your place, admire the tokenism, get on and fail to find an issue with anything. If you do find an issue, talk about it with as little passion as possible. Angry feminist territory doesn’t reign well with edge culture, see.

    These women writing, some you can see have been raped, no doubt tortured, have no right to a space of reality, a space to vent which isn’t attacked from all angles as ‘man hating’. You’re right Amber, but as long as you can have your little bitch about women, then strop about it after when confronted by someone much much more sophisticated than you, just ignore the reality on this page. The women near killed by men over years, writing here, you mock as man haters. Fuck off.

    There isn’t such a thing as man hating. Insults only hurt when thrown from the top. Why is ‘man hater’ thrown around all the time? To play down feminism – exactly what you’re doing in your edgy little smackdown.

    Go back to a culture that loves you as a woman SO MUCH!! Turn on the TV where the jokes are aimed at you, the adverts, the edgy taunting, bullying. Laugh! Be truly happy in this and resent us angry women. We’re there living it too, trying to be ignorant. But don’t try to get one over on raped oppressed women here, and in real life, by all of a sudden being a random edgy bitch and calling us ‘man hating’.

    You’re just as angry as us Amber. All women are. Why be miserable, angry and silent? When you can be all those but at least have a voice? But gladly you have no place here anymore. As it says on the tin, ‘advanced blamers – no Ambers’. I think what you’ll miss is the community – why you bothered to write.

    (Can’t believe I bothered to write such a lengthy reply. If it helps her to leave then whaddo!)

  159. jezebella

    @Laughingrat: I am still laughing. You funny.

  160. Carolyn

    Amber, if you happen to come back to see what happened to this thread I’d recommend that you read Derrick Jensen’s Endgame, particularly volume 2. It’s not about feminism, but it directly addresses what you wrote in your most recent post here.

  161. agasaya


    Patriarchy is a principle, a process and a structure, not just ‘men’. Women are integrated within the system and we learn, eventually, to recognize our collaboration with that system in terms of necessity, survival and even pleasure. Eventually, you’ll be able to tell the difference between trash talking and discussions about the real life limitations placed upon your life plans.

    A victim is someone who will be hurt regardless of how hard they fight. It doesn’t mean you never win; just that the privilege of succeeding can be taken from you at the whim of anyone in the system. The power of reversal is embodied in some male choosing to alter your course and he (or his female agent) may or may not be known to you.

    But you don’t have to read about that here. It’s in all the newspapers.

  162. nails

    “but I looked at the site from an unbiased point of view. ”

    Wait… what?

  163. Jill

    Yipes, all I said was that Amber’s grasp of the issue is unsophisticated.

    I didn’t say “Men and the women who appease them should all die screaming.”

    Why do people always confuse these things?

  164. veganrampage

    Please keep in my mind what I wrote, which I posted here and that the entire wretched site is constructed in the POV of the husband. The answer I got defended attacks I never made. Really though, that is the least of it. If anyone wants to suggest or help write an answer I welcome the assistance.

    I especially enjoyed the section on Fox “news”. I savored this as if it were Grandma’s vegan eggplant parm for days. The reply claims my comment was one of only three negative ones. Bah! Complete twiddle twaddle. You-tube is chocked with the usual hate filled anti-woman rants.

    Writing a stupid comment on a more stupidier site;a slight effort.
    Getting this reply;priceless.


    to me

    Feb 10 (9 days ago)


    This is Hollie. I actually read the emails, not my husband. We get thousands of fan emails a day and I hate to say it, but you’re one of about three negative comments via our site this week. I’m not going to divorce my husband over such trivial issues and your views are the reason the divorce rate is so high. The experience of being on the news was fun. We don’t waste our time caring about Fox’s views on social issues. It was fun for us. I don’t care much for Kevin Smith’s humor, but he is a noteworthy fan. We’re just a simple couple who are getting international attention and we’re enjoying it.

    I don’t have repressed issues. I’m moved by character development in cinematic features. So what if my reactions are more intense than someone else? I experience movies on a level that you’ll probably never conceive. Any logically thinking person knows the difference between crying after a movie and having deeply repressed issues of past abuse. Don’t try to act like you have a PhD that justifies you making a proper diagnosis based off a few three minute videos you saw online.

    And lastly, you say that I can do better with my eyes closed. Really? Are you suggesting that you’re worthy of my company? We’re talking about my husband. He’s not some bum that I’m dating because I’m a naive teenager. We’re married. We live together. We have two dogs together. Are you seriously making judgements over a blog and a few videos? Wow.

    Conclusion: Hiding behind the anonymity of an email address without giving your name is weak. You’re attempt at being clever with a point docking system was just that, an attempt. My crying videos are funny to me and it makes me happy to know that it puts a smile other people’s faces. Our experience with the attention and news reports is “just all in fun” because we don’t really care if this ends tomorrow or not. You have the right to comment on the videos, but stay out of our personal lives. Saying that I should divorce the man I married because I can do better is a pathetic attempt for you to feel like you’re above someone. You’re message was pathetic.


  165. Hedgepig

    veganrampage, you told Hollie her grasp of the issue was unsophisticated didn’t you?

  166. Helen

    We’re married. We live together. We have two dogs together.

    New keyboard time!

  167. Veganrampage


    Literally, choking, am I, and laughing and you do not know how much I needed that. I was just wondering about you two seconds ago correcting a huge Emma Thompson error that was probably in my head!
    I actually feel like a big meanie now; Hollie is only 22 and can you just imagine what her life is like?
    Did you hear that Jill told some poor woman to die screaming?
    Isn’t that awful? Please don’t repeat that, I don’t want her to know I told you.

  168. Veganrampage

    Hedge buddy; I realize that you started your sentence with a lower case V just for me, in that I had typed and have been typing my name consistently with a lower case V, or as poor, poor Hollie would write, “you’re” sentence, however what is not generally known is that I am the world’s worst typist. The statuette sits upon my desk at this very moment. It has taken me an hour to type this paragraph.
    Therefore, all the shame and disgrace is mine, solely mine and I take the bullet gladly for you my dear friend. I shall not have died in vain. Or as poor, poor Hollie would probably write in “vein”.
    (I just read the FAQs again and they kill every time.)

    I’d like to add that the Olympics are creepy and crypto-fascist, and I pretty much hate them.
    That is all.

    I humbly request (read beg) for the “blame” button to return, as “submit” to the patriarchy will not do. I know you are working on the blog at this very moment so please excuse most humbly yours and thank you.

  169. agasaya

    Married people can produce dogs together? The grandparents must be so proud.

  170. FemmeForever

    There isn’t such a thing as man hating.

    Absolutely, right. In a global culture in which the #1 religion of planet earth dwarfs any one of the lesser religions, it is literally impossible for a woman to hate men. We are indoctrinated from birth by every man and every woman. By every piece of religious and classic literature. By every medium of entertainment. By practically every recorded word from the beginning of time. By every piece of science and art. Even feminism, the solitary challenge to said religion, has to have embedded within it protection for the propagation of the religion. Literally, ALL THINGS, in homo sapien life teaches us that we shall worship the male. It is indeed quite impossible for women to hate men.

    Our religion, the only one that has 100% global observance is, of course, male supremacy.

  171. speedbudget

    Her life is like all of ours at 22 – confused and sad and the whole point of our existence was to justify the asshole we were with. amirite?

    Thank dog (hey, maybe one of theirs!) I turned 30 and got over THAT shit.

  172. nails

    Dear god, that reply email was pure denial in text form. All of the answers were complete strawman arguments. I liked the bit about how saying she could do better meant that you really want to hang out with her, or that she is preserving society by not raising the divorce rate. Wow.

  173. Jill

    Amen to that, sister.

  174. ashley

    When this post was new, I didn’t even watch it but this morning I was catching up on stuff and I watched the videos.

    Ditto everything else that’s been said, and also-I don’t understand why her crying is so funny. She CLEARLY has other issues that she’s upset about. People who don’t deal with stuff that happens to them get emotional at inappropriate times. It’s sad that not only does male culture not understand this at all, completely wipes aside that women are often emotional because we’re emotionally abused since birth, and then does lame crap like make videos of it and put it on the internet.

    and sadly, I had a boyfriend who whipped out his video camera when I was pissed at him one time, and when I asked him what he was doing he said he wanted me to see “how I looked” when I was mad at him. he knew on some level that if I could see myself not looking pretty, I might stop.

    ugh. ugh. ugh.

  175. Kiuku

    Thanks for this link Carolyn!


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