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Mar 04 2011

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Today’s question is: when is bathroom humor runny? I mean funny? I ask because there is a vas deferens between when some jokey sexist dude uses bathroom humor to tell women to lighten up and enjoy their oppression, and when some jokey spinster blogger uses it to draw attention to bigotry. Ha! Ha ha ha!

Today’s other question is: how would you explain “ladies room” to a representative of Species 8472 from the Delta Quadrant?

100 comments

1 ping

  1. yttik

    Molly Ivins talked about humor, “Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel — it’s vulgar.”

    The problem with directing attention towards women’s bigotry, is that women just don’t have much power. We aren’t dominating congress and passing the laws, we aren’t the majority of CEO’s, we aren’t in a position to oppress anybody. All things are not equal. A woman casting a strange look towards somebody in the restroom is simply not the same thing as systemic institutional oppression with power behind it. Oh, but you sure wouldn’t know it from the response! We are held accountable as if we are the most homophobic, racist people on the planet. I believe several people here claimed women like Mary Daly were advocating full blown genocide and comparable to Nazis. Yes, well what’s missing? An actual history of genocide and the power to carry it out, perhaps?

    So ridicule, mockery, and derision, to try and convince women that they are thinking ‘wrong’ is somewhat cruel.It dismisses and denies their very real experiences. As I said about the restroom, if some male appearing potty goer enters, that’s not transphobia or homophobia on women’s faces, that’s fear and wariness, well earned, since our experiences have taught us to see a male persona and sound the alarm. It’s not reasonable to demand that women put aside their natural defenses so nobody is ever stereotyped and nobody ever has hurt feelings. I didn’t want to appear racist or I was worried people might think I was homophobic are really lousy reasons to put yourself in danger. When it comes to women’s rights, it shouldn’t always be about everyone else.

  2. tinfoil hattie

    This post is a pisser!

    Come to think of it, I’ve had nary a peek at any type of genitalia in any rest room. Locker rooms? Maybe, but when one is minding one’s own business, it is hard to evaluate others’ parts.

  3. Zygar

    It’s not reasonable to demand that women put aside their natural defenses so nobody is ever stereotyped and nobody ever has hurt feelings.

    What are these “natural defenses”? Seems more like a learned behavior.

  4. Selah

    Zygar, something can be both natural and learned. To say otherwise is to create a false dichotomy.

    To answer the question of the OP, humor is relevant to point out oppression but it should also be accompanied by some actual, substantial arguments against the points at hand. To say that rad fems’ critique of trans boils down to hate and bigotry is utterly disingenuous. It setting up a straw man and then laughing at the straw man you yourself have created. Sure, that’s not the same thing as what jokey sexist dudes do, but you’re doing it within a context of a patriarchal society, directing it at women. How is there NOT sexism involved in that?

    What I personally would love to see is a take-down of the actual, real arguments of the actual human women you are creating straw men out of. Because as I’m personally trying to figure out where I stand on this, they’re the only ones making any sense, and I find it deeply disturbing that ridicule and violence is being directed at them in the complete absence of any good-faith arguments.

  5. Selah

    Sorry to double post, but I realized I misspoke when I said “they’re the only ones making sense.”

    The argument that trans men and women are human beings, deserving of respect and civil rights, absolutely makes sense. The issue is that rad fems, who are critical of trans in a political sense, actually agree with you on that, so the point is moot. Yes, that makes sense, rationally and ethically and just in terms of human compassion.

    What doesn’t make sense is that the pro-trans argument just stops there. It doesn’t adequately address the actual problems that the rad fems point out.

  6. Sargassosea

    Hey, did you just make a vas defrens joke? Hi-larious.

  7. Sargassosea

    Oh, and who just who are you calling bigots anyway? Folks who disagree with you?

  8. Bushfire

    we aren’t in a position to oppress anybody

    Yes, yttk, women can oppress people. Citizens of rich countries like the US eat cheap imported food grown by people who were barely paid for growing it, wear clothing made by people who were barely paid for sewing it, and enjoy many advantages over the people kept as slaves in other parts of the world. We pay taxes into governments that wage war and kill people. Our complicity in this system helps to oppress people everywhere.

    It is complete and utter bullshit to say that just because women are lacking male privilege that they do not oppress anyone. It is also complete and utter bullshit to say that just because “men are worse”, women should be able to say horrible things about oppressed people, therefore dehumanizing them further, without getting called on it.

    You are still beating the dead horse of “let me say whatever the hell I want even if it’s bigoted because I’m a woman and I’m oppressed!” Twisty has made it abundantly clear that OPPRESSION is what we’re all fighting. Being oppressed yourself doesn’t magically make it ok for you to oppress people who aren’t like you.

  9. Bushfire

    Oh, and who just who are you calling bigots anyway? Folks who disagree with you?

    I’ve heard this before. Many times. From people who are really mad that their bigotry is not being accepted.

  10. Friend of Snakes

    Just to be clear, is everyone here differentiating between such public accommodations as bathrooms and locker rooms and showers? Because I’m not sure the law does. Particularly in those jurisdictions which have specific protections for “perceived gender identity”?

    You know, like if I’ve lived 40 years as a male, but now I honestly want to live my life as the female I’ve always felt myself to be, but I’m insistent that I wish to retain my male dangly stuff forever. Can I shower with your 10 year old daughter at our health club? You’re a transphobe if you don’t approve.

  11. yttik

    Bushfire, I eat local, sew my own clothes, and don’t pay taxes. Happy now? Likely not, because I’m still an uppity woman who refuses to take responsibility for all the sins of patriarchy, a system I did not create and have spent years fighting against. Women did not create the patriarchy, women do not have the power to oppress large groups of people, to wage war, or to cause genocide.

    There is a huge double standard when we focus on women and how they oppress people. Are transwomen being assaulted by women in women’s restrooms? Not as far as I know. Is there a bunch of rad fems running around murdering transwomen? Again, not as far as I know. And yet who do you choose to call a bigot and accuse of hatred?? Women. I reject your name calling and I refuse to walk around in shame carrying the burden of guilt so the patriarchy doesn’t have to.

  12. Friend of Snakes

    Today’s other question is: how would you explain “ladies room” to a representative of Species 8472 from the Delta Quadrant?

    A place where born females and transsexuals go to deposit the products of their excretory systems. A place to wash hands. A place for transsexuals and femmy born females to apply makeup. A place to shoot the breeze with complete strangers while waiting for a stall. A place where an occasional member of the transgender grouping wearing female attire while genitally male masturbates instead of doing any of the above.

  13. Jill

    “[Using jokes to spotlight women's bigotry] dismisses and denies their very real experiences.”

    OK, what is the typical “very real experience” of women regarding transwomen? Transwomen routinely leap out of the shadows and attack them, or what? Also, I guess women just get a free bigotry pass because they’re oppressed?

    Also, the word “very” in the phrase “very real” is superfluous. Superfluous, I tell you! There, I said it.

    “[W]ho just who are you calling bigots anyway? Folks who disagree with you?”

    It is fucked up to discriminate against oppressed people out of fear and prejudice. I am calling anyone who does so a bigot. And an asshole, for a that.

  14. Jill

    “A place where an occasional member of the transgender grouping wearing female attire while genitally male masturbates instead of doing any of the above.”

    Now that’s comedy.

  15. Selah

    My real experience with trans women is that they have come into all but one of the women-only spaces that I have ever had, and insisted that we stop referring to one another as women and control our discourse (e.g. we aren’t allowed to address the “women” or the “ladies” in the room), control and our resource allocation (which suddenly becomes all about trans issues–see the NCLR), and perpetrate verbal violence against us (see previous discussions on this very blog).

    My real experience with trans women and their fun fem supporters is a complete unwillingness to discuss how male privilege relates to the trans issue. It’s like once we’re talking about trans, we can’t even talk about sexism anymore without the topic being co-opted back to transphobia. I have an internal knower that knows when I’m being oppressed, and it lights right up in such discussions.

    I am willing to refer to people with whatever pronouns they prefer, I really don’t care if they want to come into my bathroom, and I want them to have all the same civil rights and basic human decency that every person is entitled to. In fact, I make quite a bit of effort to be accommodating to trans women, and have never had one be willing to discuss being accommodating to me. in women’s spaces.

  16. yttik

    People seem very concerned that women might “get a free pass” at something. Let me assure you, women don’t get a free pass at much of anything in life, so concerns that women might get away with something or manage to avoid being called out and therefore avoid suffering their proper comeuppance is unfounded. This obsession with women somehow getting away with something because of their gender is right out of the MRA handbook. Relax, women will get screwed over a dozen ways past Sunday, so all is well. If you fail to point out every women’s flaws, don’t worry, someone else will.

    “It is fucked up to discriminate against oppressed people out of fear and prejudice.”

    Sure it is, but have we got one single example of a transwoman being assaulted by women in a restroom? Women are being accused of oppression, discrimination, and bigotry based on what?? Feeling wary in a public restroom? Hoping somebody who appears male only intends to use the can?? These things are not oppression and discrimination! You’re not oppressed because a woman doesn’t immediately feel all warm and fuzzy about you.

    Crossing the street because you’re fearful of a group of young black men is not oppressing anybody, unless you’re trying to say that the potential hurt feelings of those men and their right to not be perceived as a potential threat trumps a woman’s right to cross the street and feel safe? Do women owe every single oppressed group unconditional smiles and support or are we allowed to think of ourselves and our own feelings once in a while? I should point out that the group of young men a woman crosses the street to avoid have suffered, nothing, nil, zip, because said woman does not owe them the right to pass her on the sidewalk.

    Have we completely forgotten what real oppression and discrimination look like?? One in four of us is sexually assaulted sometime in our lifetime and you want to lecture me about how fear is wrong and I’m an asshole and a bigot?

  17. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Having shared a ladies’ room with a transgendered gal for about 5 years, I had no clue whatsofuckinever what she had going on below the belt. Just like me, she went in, shut the door, did her business, washed her hands and left. The whole thing was less than an issue.

  18. alex

    Selah, One issue is to extent to which it’s possible to respect someone’s dignity as a human being and agree that that person is deserving of civil rights and at the same time say, in effect, “Your existence mocks my existence.” Some people are better at believing two contradictory ideas at once; the litmus test may be whether those who believe that the existence of transwomen mocks the existence of women act in ways that respect the dignity of transwomen as human beings and support their civil rights. If you say you believe both of those things, no one who isn’t a mind reader can say for sure that you don’t, but if your actions only support one of those two contradictory beliefs, others may be skeptical about whether you really believe the other one.

    Also, I have female anatomy and was born with it, but am not-infrequently perceived as male. I could make clothing and hairstyle choices that would make this less likely, but I choose not to. I have walked into restrooms and witnessed women clutching their pearls and gasping, “Oh! I thought it was a man walking in!” Am I allowed to use any public cans at all in your universe, or should I just hold it in? And if you do agree that I am allowed to use public cans, despite the reality that some other users experience a frisson of anxiety when I walk in, how is that different from a transwoman walking in and causing the same frisson of anxiety?

  19. Noanodyne

    Jill: “It is fucked up to discriminate against oppressed people out of fear and prejudice.”

    But it’s ok to discriminate as long as it’s not out of fear and prejudice? When I see you write something like that, I wonder if you are arguing from emotion, rather than intellect. Well ok, let’s let that one go. I think what you are trying to do is conflate all these scary concepts into one big scary emotional point that will shame people into silence. A sentence that combines the words oppression, discrimination, fear, and prejudice is clearly meant as a thought-stopper extraordinaire. If calling us haters and bigots won’t work, maybe that will.

    Or some of us will just keep trying to engage at a level that isn’t purely emotional.

    Just so we’re clear, the argument you’re making requires a number of assumptions and an oppression scale for it to work. Anyone in a specific group of oppressed people should be able to do anything that the people above them on the oppression scale (i.e., those who are better off) are allowed to do, or they’re being discriminated against, by definition. Starting with the assumptions that trans women are oppressed and lower on the oppression scale than FAAB women, you’re arguing that unless trans women are allowed to do everything that FAAB women are allowed to do, trans women are being discriminated against by anyone who has kept them from doing that thing.

    This neatly uses the twin hobgoblins of oppression and discrimination to claim a position and rights for trans women, without analyzing whether any of that is actually true, or whether it even matters in the face of other concerns in this specific realm of human experience (and not just falling back on broad definitions of discrimination and oppression). And the additional trouble with using it here is, we’ve heard it all before, given it a lot of thought, and reject it not because of fear and prejudice, but because it doesn’t address the core issue we keep bringing up: The rights you are touting for trans women come at the expense of the sex class (you remember them? I think you’ve had a few posts about them on this very blog) and that is why we are questioning the arguments for those rights.

    To second what Selah said, we’re still waiting for you to address “the actual, real arguments of the actual human women you are creating straw men out of.”

  20. Selah

    alex, what on earth did I say that sounded ANYTHING like that I believe any individual trans woman mocks my existence? I don’t believe that for a second and I didn’t say it.

    And when it comes to the bathroom issue, I can’t figure out what you are asking me. Are you asking if I think you have a right to never have women be startled by your presence? Because how could I possibly think anyone has a right to that? Women having an initial startle reaction to someone who appears male in their bathroom is not oppression of said person who appeared (even if only initially) to be male. That is a direct effect of the fact that women are systematically beaten, raped, and enslaved by men in a patriarchal culture.

    And even if someone is initially startled by you, that doesn’t equal “not being allowed” to use the bathroom. Who does the allowing? Who is the gatekeeper? Are rad fems standing outside bathroom doors demanding to see the genitals of all who enter? Why are you even asking me about this, when I have clearly stated that I don’t care if trans women use the women’s restroom?

  21. Jill

    “But it’s ok to discriminate as long as it’s not out of fear and prejudice?”

    Yeah, that’s exactly what I meant. Long live non-fear-and-prejudice-engendered discrimination! Whatever that is!

  22. AlienNumber

    I only discriminate against stupid people who lie. Sue me!

  23. Jill

    “we’re still waiting for you to address “the actual, real arguments of the actual human women you are creating straw men out of.””

    Well maybe somebody would be so kind as to make an actual real argument. So far all I have encountered on these threads is transphobia. Do you expect me to say that men who transition to women aren’t welcome on Savage Death Island? Because the only people who aren’t welcome are those who wield the male privilege. If some hypothetical transwoman wields the male privilege, she’s another fucking antifeminist asshole, and gets the Stink Eye of Jaundice just like anybody other antifeminist asshole. But surely you can all see that this quasi-magnanimous separate-but-equal crap, and this transwomen-all-just-want-to-wank-in-the-ladies-room crap, is tantamount to “othering” an entire class of people. Which, I can’t get behind that.

  24. Selah

    Twisty, if I am reading you right, you just admitted that you haven’t bothered to find out what rad fems are actually saying before holding them up as examples of ridicule. Say it ain’t so.

  25. AlienNumber

    What about this argument, dear Twisty: transgenderist behavior and practice reifies gender roles.

    (Or are you for lipstick wearing, silicon-boob implanting and/or stilettos and/or hormone pumping all of a sudden?)

    If that is also not a serious argument, would you please tell why not?

  26. Pretty Pink Princess Patricia

    In ’96, 88 percent of adult women in NY on a survey said they wore make-up in the last 6 months. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4021/is_n3_v19/ai_19165299/)
    OH NO!!!! All women everywhere forever are reifying gender roles! Clearly we should ban them all from women’s restrooms so the restrooms remain pure and unmarred by the subtle yet insidious taint of GENDER!

    But yeah, in all seriousness when I got the trans handbook and watched the required indoctri– introductory videos this is what it told me to do, and what I have done exactly ever since!
    1) All makeup all the time.
    2) Six. inch. heels. no. exceptions.
    3) Thou shall get breast implants!
    4) Always use public restrooms to masturbate in secret. Always. As a trans woman I no longer have to excrete waste matter in public ever, that can be accomplished in my eldritch trans cocoon pod back in my secret cis woman hating basement shrine.
    5) Bottom surgery is the one true purpose to life!
    6) PIIIIIIIINK
    7) Deceiving people for funsies!
    8) Did I mention dresses? Never wear anything except flowery dresses! No not ever!
    9) Oh yeah the secondary true purpose to life is to reify gender whenever possible. Reifying gender is really super important, as is waging war with feminism.

  27. KJB

    ‘The problem with directing attention towards women’s bigotry, is that women just don’t have much power.’

    What disingenuous crap this is. Everyone – and this includes women – has the choice to follow a certain world-view or not. Did you, or did you not choose to be a feminist?

    Your bleating about women being held accountable for their views is to do with FEMINISTS, not women generally, and it is part of why a lot of women I know don’t take the label – because they don’t actually want to shoulder the responsibility of a world fair for all, they just want special treatment.

    ‘We are held accountable as if we are the most homophobic, racist people on the planet.’

    I’m not going to let racism, transphobia or sexism from a woman go just because she’s a woman. Those kind of notions are partly why the women’s movement in my country of origin has stalled so spectacularly.

    I don’t know who called Mary Daly a Nazi or said she was advocating genocide, but I called her a racist because she was and I have the women’s history to prove it.

    Really, the transphobic arguments on this thread are maintaining the overlap I noticed previously… I’m seeing a lot of white privilege on display alongside the trans hate.

  28. Bushfire

    Right. Since transgendered people have to follow patriarchal gender roles in order to avoid getting beat up and to convince psychiatrists to prescribe them their medication, lets hate on them. Let’s hate on them instead of the PATRIARCHY which is causing them to have to behave that way. And let’s all hate on the cis women who wear makeup and get boob jobs because THEY are causing gender roles.

    WTF.

    I’ve already got a half-full anti-feminist bingo card.

  29. janna

    Today’s other question is: how would you explain “ladies room” to a representative of Species 8472 from the Delta Quadrant?

    It’s a room wherein people who have been arbitrarily designated as “ladies” expel their waste and sometimes perform a variety of patriarchy-compliance rituals.

    The rest of this post, I won’t touch. There’s so much hilarity (Women can’t oppress anyone! Trans people cause gender roles!) going on that it’s clearly not to be improved upon.

  30. GallusMag

    Men LOVE the ladies restroom.

  31. Nora

    I’ve been staying away from That Debate, but I actually think I can clear something up for you, AlienNumber: very many transgender women *don’t* wear lipstick, get boob implants, or wear stilettos. Some of them are even feminists. (Of course, like Bushfire noted, they pay for that enormously when they are subsequently denied surgery and ostracized from their communities). Happy now?

    Also: your argument is intellectually lazy as all-get-out. Twisty never said that she was anti-people-who-have-boob-implants. She’s anti-patriarchal-culture-that-tells-women-to-risk-their-lives-for-sex-appeal, as far as I can tell. One of the most beautiful things I’ve read in the past month or two has been her (non-dehumanizing, non-prurient, non-judgmental) coverage of a women who died while getting plastic surgery. You’re not giving her–and whomever else your comments are addressed to–enough credit.

  32. buttercup

    Jill, someday I hope to have the chance to buy you a drink. This is the hard work, right here.

  33. Citizen Jane

    If I come to a feminist website and see this level of privilege denying, I have to wonder if there is any hope for humanity. It keeps me going to think that one day the people of the world may enjoy an egalitarian society. So it is shattering to see this volume of self rightous privilege denying from the very people who are getting together to fight oppression.

    The oppression that you suffer is not the only oppression that matters, people. Fighting for freedom from oppression while simultaneously enforcing the oppression of others is sending a clear message to the privileged that oppression is not truly an issue. It shows the privileged that you don’t really mean it when you say that one person should not oppress another.

    The most privileged want you to do this. If those at the bottom all contribute to the oppression of one another, then it saves the effort for those at the top, and reinforces the tools they use to oppress us. Every time you oppress another, you contribute to your own oppression.

  34. yttik

    Twisty, can you explain why you and some of your commentators were so cranky back when I mentioned celebrating female intuition? I believe the argument was that women have no innate qualities related to gender. I believe I was called squishy brained for pointing out gender related skills when it comes to science. Anyway, it seems like many people here believe it is only okay to recognize and acknowledge innate female characteristics if they occur in transwomen. Isn’t that the whole purpose of transitioning, feeling as if you have those innate female characteristics and you wish your outside to match?

    It seems illogical to deny these female characteristics, indeed, to ridicule and mock those who claim to have them, and yet to turn around and embrace transwomen who claim to be pursuing those exact same things.

  35. Sargassosea

    “It is fucked up to discriminate against oppressed people out of fear and prejudice. I am calling anyone who does so a bigot. And an asshole, for a that.”

    Okay. So bigots are assholes. Agreed.

    Apparently you need to name some names because you didn’t answer my question; I still don’t know exactly which bigot assholes you’re referring to.

    And I’d like to know, you know, for the record and so I can avoid them at all costs.

  36. Noanodyne

    yttik: “It seems illogical to deny these female characteristics, indeed, to ridicule and mock those who claim to have them, and yet to turn around and embrace transwomen who claim to be pursuing those exact same things.”

    Spoken like someone who is obviously dripping with the privilege of having a lady brain from birth. You bigot you.

    But, now, seriously, Nails explained it all before – how, why, and wherefore there’s no such thing as a lady brain (I believe it was female intuition she and the blog mistress were laughing about at the time). I’m sure there’s a perfectly rational explanation for the turnabout now, our bigotry is merely blinding us to the brilliance of the argument.

  37. Noanodyne

    Nora: “She’s anti-patriarchal-culture-that-tells-women-to-risk-their-lives-for-sex-appeal, as far as I can tell.”

    That’s what I thought, too. And that’s what a whole bunch of us are about, too. And that’s why we’re confused and discussing this here.

    I am, personally, anti-patriarchal-culture-that-tells-women-to-risk-their-lives-for-sex-appeal. And THEREFORE, I am opposed to any version of that culture that supports that kind of behavior. You know, behavior like cutting off or severely modifying healthy body parts, ingesting artificial hormones for a lifetime, and squeezing themselves into the tiny little miserable conformist box known as the sex class. It’s not good to do it for sex appeal (like you said in your very own quote). It’s not good to do it for any reason whatsoever. Further, making that practice a cultural and social norm is not good for any given person and it’s not good for all the rest of the people already residing in the sex class. That’s why we blame the patriarchy in the first place, remember?

  38. Citizen Jane

    Twisty, can you explain why you and some of your commentators were so cranky back when I mentioned celebrating female intuition? I believe the argument was that women have no innate qualities related to gender. I believe I was called squishy brained for pointing out gender related skills when it comes to science. Anyway, it seems like many people here believe it is only okay to recognize and acknowledge innate fdemale characteristics if they occur in transwomen.

    I have not seen a single commenter here claim that transgenderism is innate. I certainly haven’t seen a single person claim that transgenders have the right to be who they are because they possess “female intuition”, or any of the other degrading made-up characteristics that patriarchy tells us we have so that we will stay in the kitchen and out of science and politics.

    It skeeves me right off when people want to dicuss whether transgenderism comes from genetic or environmental factors as if it is something that must be settled before we can decide whether transgenders have any rights. Whether transgenderism comes nature or nurture is absolutely irrelevant to the fact that transgenders have the right to be who they are and in a body they feel comfortable in.

    And what about transgenders who, for example transition to a male body but retain a female gender, because that is the body and mannerisms they feel comfortable in? Or vice-versa? What about people like me who are perfectly comfortable with the body we are born in, but don’t feel comfortable in either of the two genders that society has created for us? Your arguments don’t acknowledge the existence of the full range of people with all the varying gender identities.

  39. Comrade PhysioProf

    What about this argument, dear Twisty: transgenderist behavior and practice reifies gender roles.

    (Or are you for lipstick wearing, silicon-boob implanting and/or stilettos and/or hormone pumping all of a sudden?)

    If that is also not a serious argument, would you please tell why not?

    It’s not a serious argument, because being “for” patriarchal compliance is 100% orthogonal to being “for” conferring respect and dignity on people regardless of the extent to which they comply.

  40. ew_nc

    Oh Noandyne, give the mansplaining a rest already!

  41. yttik

    “It’s not a serious argument, because being “for” patriarchal compliance is 100% orthogonal to being “for” conferring respect and dignity on people regardless of the extent to which they comply.”

    Then it would stand to reason that one could also be against patriarchal compliance in all it’s surgical forms and also be for conferring respect and dignity upon people regardless of how much they comply. So, one might hate FGM and argue strongly against it politically and yet not be bigoted against those who have been subjected to it. If this is true, then one could also be against transgender practices as a cultural norm and yet not be hateful and bigoted towards those individuals who have complied.

  42. Laughingrat

    I have not seen a single commenter here claim that transgenderism is innate.

    Did you somehow miss Zoe Brain’s 750 bajillion remarks about “male” and “female” brains, all backed up (in theory) with Science?

  43. redpeachmoon

    ‘Cranky’?, I’d call out some downright hostility on these threads. Why is anyone here needing to call BULLSHIT! on another’s thoughts and opinions? And accusations of privledge are flying pretty fast and loose too.
    I still can’t figure out the postions of this Trans-debate, and I read all 700-something posts! I would not feel comfortable posting an opinion here, nothing is clear to me and I won’t be a target for some p’d-off ‘blamer’.
    Wish we could get together on something.

  44. Amos

    Tom Paris would have to explain ladies room. He is after all the expert on obsolete customs.

    Related feminist geekery: is it good or bad that Picard calls his female junior officers mister?

  45. Cyberwulf

    I figure ‘Mr’ and ‘sir’ being applied to female officers/crew was a late eighties/early nineties clumsy attempt at political correctness.

    TNG is interesting to watch because in the beginning the two main female characters are in traditional ‘caring’ roles, they’re exes/love interests of the two main male characters, one of them’s a mother too… But as the series continues they start to get better adventures and do combat and sciency things.

  46. Astraia

    Amos – I’m going to say bad. It’s trying for equality by making women’s marital status irrelevant, but in doing so ends up falling into the trap of male-as-default.

    I don’t remember Picard doing this, though, only the rather jarring usage of ‘Mr Saavik’ in the movies. It always bothered me.

    Then there’s Janeway’s dislike of being called ‘sir’ which was interesting.

  47. Jezebella

    Cyberwulf, you’re forgetting Tasha Yar, total badass and nobody’s girlfriend.

  48. AlienNumber

    Well, ya know, I must be an irrational hater because I care for/respect/treat with dignity people with anorexia, but I just can’t help finding pro-ana websites and the accompanying politics absolutely vile.

    “But the womenz on those websites are just teaching each other how to more efficiently starve themselves so they can look on the outside as skinny as they’ve always felt on the inside.” !

  49. Adrienne in CA

    Very real solution: individual unisex bathrooms and shower rooms everywhere now, damn the cost. Never grokked traipsing nekkid before anyone of whatever sex, besides Nigel and close kin.

    Pee? You’re scared of pee?? Tissue. Wipe. Gone.

  50. Other Liz

    The women’s toilets where I work have a urinal in them!

    It’s an historic building made before women were allowed into this paricular workplace (parliament house in Melbourne Australia). The adaption for women has been made without ripping out old fittings unnecessarily.

    But it gave me a real cheer when I saw it – like there was a place in the world that recognises that some women have willies.

    My only transgendered friends have both had the op. But I’m dying to show them the urinal for a laff!

    Toilet humour!

  51. Frumious B

    “A place where an occasional member of the transgender grouping wearing female attire while genitally male masturbates instead of doing any of the above.”

    Is this tongue in cheek? I can’t tell. Did you know that cis women wank in the ladies’ room?

    I like my restrooms to echo Jill’s current blog policy – I like there to be an absence of people who exhibit male privilege. I like an absence of ill-behaved displays of male-privilege like: peering under stalls, taking offense at women’s excretory functions, jeering at women’s femininity rituals, ogling of women adjusting bras, pantyhose, or other clothing, etc. Excluding men of all ages goes a long way toward excluding displays of male privilege.

    I’m envisioning a gender inclusive bathroom where men and women apprehend displayers of privilege and form a human fence to herd them out of the vicinity.

  52. tinfoil hattie

    Okay. I am really missing Joanne Worley and Charles Nelson Reilly about now.

  53. Emma

    I am so tired of the way that every post for the past few weeks has been an excuse for readers to go on transphobic rants.

    It’s getting to the point where I don’t enjoy reading this amazing blog anymore, because I keep expecting to find tolerant, intelligent debate in the comments – and I am always disappointed.

  54. Frumious B

    @Noanodyne

    “It’s not good to do it for sex appeal (like you said in your very own quote). It’s not good to do it for any reason whatsoever. Further, making that practice a cultural and social norm is not good for any given person and it’s not good for all the rest of the people already residing in the sex class.”

    Your homework is to do enough trans reading to find out for yourself what the problems are with everything you said.

  55. milou

    Ugh y’all. Can people finally stop arguing with Twisty about this? Don’t you want her to not be sick every time she logs on here? you know, so she won’t give up on this wonderful blog?!

  56. Hermionemone

    Well, don’t fret, Missy M’lou, it’s all harmless good fun. Back in Gay Paree they used to have these meetin’s in rich ladies’ houses where all the resident intellectchuals would gather to discuss important philosophical issues of their day. This here’s the modern equivalent: Aunt Twisty’s Old-Tyme Wimmins Meetup and Wild West Salon. Nobody’d come here if we didn’t have a good old dust-up once in a while to whale some sense into each other. Course it does get expensive replacin’ all the balsawood chairs and sugar-glass windows ever’ time. Just so’s no one’s personally incinerated by the insults and flames, we’ll all keep comin’ back on the off-chance of changing each others’ perceptions a little. Now go ahead, pick up that pretend bottle and smash me over the head, I’ll pretend to do a little spin and dangle my tongue out as I hit the floor. See the little XX’s in my eyes? Then we all get up and try all over agin.

  57. Outback

    Q: How would you explain “ladies room” to a representative of Species 8472 from the Delta Quadrant?

    A: It’s the one on the right.

  58. Metal_teaport

    I disagree that your joke counted as toilet humour, since to me toilet humour amounts to “bodily functions are gross hahaha”. It was humour about toilets but to call it toilet humour ignores the purpose in the joke.

    Using humour to draw attention to bigoted views can be a powerful resource but it can also be alienating, since it just mocks the apposing view rather than challenging it. I can see why people who do see transwomen as a threat can be upset but this humour. There is a difficult balance between letting bigoted views be heard, so they can be challenged and questioned, and the prevalence of bigoted views silencing those who are in the minority (i.e. trans* people)

    I do think that dismissing the joke as toilet humour without approaching the problem seriously is wrong though. Saying the use of toilets isn’t the most important issue, is exactly equivalent to saying “women in Saudi-Arabia can’t drive so why worry about equal pay”. As far as I know, I don’t know any people who identify as trans* in any form. However even my cis-sexual friends have had problems with toilets, when one gender’s toilets were locked, and they were chucked out for using the other gender’s. I can only imaging how someone experiencing not being allowed to go to the loo regularly would feel. Bodily functions are an unpleasant fact of life, and trans* people need to go to the bathroom as much as anyone else.

  59. nails

    neodyne
    “But, now, seriously, Nails explained it all before – how, why, and wherefore there’s no such thing as a lady brain (I believe it was female intuition she and the blog mistress were laughing about at the time). I’m sure there’s a perfectly rational explanation for the turnabout now, our bigotry is merely blinding us to the brilliance of the argument.”

    You didn’t read what I explained, so here is the short version: there are portions of the brain which seem to construct a picture of what your physical body “should” be composed of. Folks like the trans-abled and people with phantom limb syndrome both show such a thing to exist. There is a sense of deformity that can exist and cause great distress to people whose physical self concept disagrees with their presentation. Now, picture that you have the same issue as the trans-abled person, but within a society where the physical characteristics in question are given an unequaled cultural and social significance. It would become messier only because of the social environment. This does not make it a “lady brain” unless you think that all there is to being a woman is physical. Transwomen have as much variety in their femme-ness as ciswomen do, but they are not as free to stray from being feminine due to violence that occurs if they are found out as transwomen by the general population. “Passing” is a big deal as far as physical safety goes, and I can’t blame them for doing more feminine stuff than I do. You also have to understand that they have to live as their desired sex for a YEAR in order to get surgery, which is the only thing that reliably reduces distress for transwomen. If their gender counselor doesn’t think they are doing enough it may compromise their chance at surgery.

    This has absolutely no relationship to the idea that brains are gendered based on mental abilities, which is what the women’s intuition folks were arguing for.

  60. nails

    “A place where an occasional member of the transgender grouping wearing female attire while genitally male masturbates instead of doing any of the above.”

    Is “confuses transvestites and transgender people” a spot on a bingo card somewhere? It really should be.

  61. AlienNumber

    Nails, okay, so let’s say we buy your argument. But then why should we call a MtF a woman?

  62. crickets

    At the end of the day bathroom prejudice is ridiculous. If you object to MTF transgender people using a public convenience assigned to women on the ground that you fear them perving on you, do you also object to non-heterosexual women using these bathrooms? Are they all perverts too?

    An ex of mine was very gender confused, and although biologically female presented as male and was often referred to as “him” by acquantences. This person used to ask me to go with them into the bathroom to vouch for them if they were challenged – i’ll never forget an old man calling after us in a pub as we went into the bathroom “eh lad, you can’t go in there!” A member of staff was sent in after us to check, which was pretty darn embarrassing. After spending time with someone who had problems in public toilets of either assignment, I support separate neutral toiltets for all!

    On a side note – my same friend never referred to themselves as transgender, but was certainly effected by transgender issues. They were often sad and confused, considered surgery in the hope it would make them feel more “normal”, but was terrified that taking hormones would change their personality. All they wanted was to feel comfotrable without losing their sense of self. I feel it’s wrong to condemn transgender people for “performing” in order to fit in – it’s what everybody does to a certain extent in one way or another. I’ll admit that I do, and it’s hard to know sometimes where the performing ends and my self begins as a woman living in the patriarchy, even though i’m makeup and high heels free. Being transgender is always a struggle, and one that deserves support. It took me a bit of thought to get my head around, but I now thoroughly agree with Twisty’s view – post patrirachy, there would be no gender, which would indeed be a wonderful thing. How much of everyone’s day can be taken up by just trying to fit in? It’s that times a million for transgender people, who are fighting against that instant patriarchal reaction of “freak!” that has been instilled in just about every other person they will meet.

  63. crickets

    p.s. sorry for the spelling mistake “comfotrable”, of course translates as “comfortable”.

  64. N/A

    longtime lurker, first-time commenter. like selah, have been following this debate a while and find that the pro-trans side has not answered any questions posed by the radfems in a way that has satisfied my own curiosity, so i will ask a question also.

    nails said: “there are portions of the brain which seem to construct a picture of what your physical body “should” be composed of.”

    i’m guessing nails is referring to the homunculus here which maps the body in the brain. if nails means that trans-women’s homunculi (or whatever other areas nails is referring to) are “defective” at birth, and are mapping genital areas that the brain is actually not connected to, then that is a problem. same way that being “born with” (so to speak) phantom limb syndrome is a problem. a medical problem. non a gender problem.

    if surgery in the genital area reduces the dissonance felt by men who are born with defective homunculi, then i must echo what AlienNumber said: why call them women?

    (why must any man without a functioning/”normal” penis automatically be labelled ‘woman’ or ‘female’? there is a word for men without penises.)

    nora said earlier in the thread: “very many transgender women *don’t* wear lipstick, get boob implants, or wear stilettos” but then in the same sentence lamented that these same trans-women are denied surgery. she also said they are ostracized from their communities. i have two questions here as well.

    one: if all that the transgender/transsexual women nora mentions want is genital surgery for the brain/body to match up, and they are denied that surgery because they don’t present in a feminine way – then why aren’t they lobbying and rallying for the medical procedures to be changed?

    two: if these transgender women are not presenting as ‘feminine’ then why are they being ostracized from their communities? unless they’re going around announcing their “inner identity” to everyone (in which case they look like very confused men to the world at large, in a political sense) then i don’t understand how their community has suddenly clued in to the fact that their insides don’t match their outsides and is therefore shunning them.

    it makes no sense.

    so to sum up (tldr):)

    1) why call them women?
    2) why are they not protesting the medical procedures?
    3) why are non-feminine transwomen being shunned in the first place?

  65. Shopstewardess

    [QUOTE]Nails, okay, so let’s say we buy your argument. But then why should we call a MtF a woman?[/QUOTE]

    Well, if you don’t mind me butting in, because it’s good manners.

    (This is of course subject to whatever view is taken, by the participants in the situation in question, on the use of the word “woman” to indicate femaleness.)

  66. yttik

    “This has absolutely no relationship to the idea that brains are gendered based on mental abilities, which is what the women’s intuition folks were arguing for.”

    No. We were arguing that there are social and cultural trainings from the day of our birth that cause many women to develop certain survival skills, such as intuition. I still believe this to be true.

    It’s still illogical to state that woman have no innate gender qualities and yet to declare that you support transwomen who wish to pursue these innate qualities. Do they exist or don’t they?

  67. Bushfire

    Nails, okay, so let’s say we buy your argument. But then why should we call a MtF a woman?

    Because she’s a woman. For the same reason you call a horse a horse, and an apple and apple.

  68. AlienNumber

    Okay, so let’s engage this argument further: what makes a woman a woman (or: what makes an apple an apple, if that is easier)? But let’s not quote from the Gospels of the Church of Po-Mo please (where a copy of an apple is an apple too. Miracle!).

    As for manners — that poor kid who kept screaming “The Emperor has no clothes” really was a rude brat with no manners whatsoever, wasn’t she? Oh well.

  69. Denise

    It’s still illogical to state that woman have no innate gender qualities and yet to declare that you support transwomen who wish to pursue these innate qualities. Do they exist or don’t they?

    I support transwomen because I don’t believe that women have innate gender qualities. I believe that gender is socially constructed behavior. And I believe that if a person born with dangly bits feels more comfortable performing the gender “woman” then I have no problem with calling that person a woman. And if that person feels that they must alter their body to conform with what society thinks a woman looks like, then I support that in the same way that I support any woman who feels she must dress in female drag to survive.

    Individual transpersons may be assholes, or anti-feminist, or what-have-you, but all of the transwomen I’ve met have been lovely people with no apparent interest in oppressing me or expressing male privilege. They also none of them had had surgery, nor did they wear stilettos or make-up or fake breasts.

  70. Carpenter

    What is so damned sacrosanct about the ladies room anyway? Why are people so tied in knots about transwomen using a toilet? The only reason gender segregated bathrooms exists anyway is that society is permeated by messed up gender roles. Segregated bathrooms don’t protect women from male sexual violence any more than any historical gender segregation has protected any woman-separate pews at church, dress codes for female modesty, female only train cars etc.

  71. Shopstewardess

    AlienNumber: the kid screaming that the Emperor was naked was making a revolutionary political statement in the face of an absolute, patriarchal autocracy. I’ve never met any transperson who was even remotely in a position of power as a result of their trans status, or who deserved similar treatment.

    Theoretical debates are one thing. But in the case of transpeople the political is intensely, individually, personal. I don’t feel able to disrespect the choices transpeople make by calling them anything other than what they want me to. YMMV.

  72. yttik

    In Death by Femininity Twisty wrote, “desperate to appease the oppressor through rigorous adherence to deeply internalized pornographic beauty standards, Berger undertook multiple self-mutilations, and paid the ultimate price. Femininity kills.”

    Again in the Bridal-plasty post, the criticism of the practice was phrased gross, misogynistic, and pornographic.

    Women performing the gender “woman” and adapting to cultural norms is acknowledged as a rather awful and life threatening thing to put yourself through. So how come when men decide to do the gender “woman” everybody declares a state of emergency exists and we must all unconditionally support the practice? In fact, if you have any ideological objections at all, you must be transphobic and an oppressor to boot.

  73. AlienNumber

    Because, yytik, aren’t men so cute and vulnerable looking when they wear dresses? Let me go fellate* one out of sheer gratefulness!

    (*vomit)

    Alternatively, maybe promising MtFs a spot on the Island is Twisty’s secret plan to get more dudes to self-mutilate and put themselves through life threatening practices. Rather brilliant tactic if you asked me!

    (although I’m worried about Denise’s claim that (lovely) persons with dangly bits, no make-up, no stilettos, no fake breasts, are also women. In that case, all that dudes have to do is call themselves a woman and voila, spot on the Island, and the brilliant tactic goes to pieces).

  74. milou

    hmmm, yttik, I guess that’s sort of along the lines of what Sheila Jeffreys would say.

  75. AlienNumber

    Shopstewardness, you have it backwards: I am the kid, not the MtFs. The MtFs are the Emperor. They are not women even though they’d all like us to pretend that they are (they are not dressed in wonderful luscious clothes, even though they’d all like to us to pretend that they are).

    The reason why the MtFs and their supporters can even force us to call them women (kind of like how the Emperor was forcing people to admire his (invisible) clothes) is because of their patriarchal power.

    Think about it this way: women (the non-Emperors) have been trying to get men to treat them like men/humans (same pay etc) for hundreds of years now and look where that has gotten us: in the anonymous pits of the Internets and still several dimes off the male dollar for the same or even more work!

    Conversely, when men try to get women to call them women, well, as you can see, it’s not that hard for them at all, despite some radfems’ valiant efforts. IBTP.

  76. Valerie M

    Oh Noandyne, give the mansplaining a rest already!

    One of many, many lesbophobic comments in this lesbophobic thread.

  77. Bonnie

    So this Deltan walks into a bar.

  78. Bushfire

    From the American Heritage Dictionary:

    woman

    –noun
    1.An adult female human.
    2.Women considered as a group; womankind: “Woman feels the invidious distinctions of sex exactly as the black man does those of color” ( Elizabeth Cady Stanton).
    3.An adult female human belonging to a specified occupation, group, nationality, or other category. Often used in combination: an Englishwoman; congresswoman; a saleswoman.
    4.Feminine quality or aspect; womanliness.
    5.A female servant or subordinate.
    6.Informal A wife.
    7.Informal A female lover or sweetheart. See Usage Notes at lady, man, person.

    Merriam Webster

    Definition of WOMAN
    1a : an adult female person b : a woman belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) —usually used in combination
    2: womankind
    3: distinctively feminine nature : womanliness
    4: a woman who is a servant or personal attendant
    5a chiefly dialect : wife b : mistress c : girlfriend 2

    That’s all I feel like looking for at the moment. You could, however, look in a dictionary yourself if you want to know what a woman is.

  79. Bushfire

    Well, darnit, I was trying to address this question by aliennumber:

    what makes a woman a woman

    And here I go posting a dictionary definition when your question was more philosophical. My mistake, I will think about this more and get back to you about what I think makes a woman a woman. Right now I have an assignment due tomorrow and I really need to work on it. Perhaps others would like to weigh in. This seems a worthy discussion.

    Carry on!

  80. nails

    “Nails, okay, so let’s say we buy your argument. But then why should we call a MtF a woman?”

    Because you should call people what they prefer to be called if it doesn’t harm you at all?

  81. Darragh Murphy

    So if a white person is experiencing racial dysphoria and believes she is actually a native American or Asian person who was WAAB, and even goes to the extreme of surgically changing her features and skin tone, is she actually an Asian person, or is she a white person? I’m thinking of Michael Jackson.

  82. Bushfire

    Darragh, Michael Jackson may be the only person who’s ever done that. Many people are transgendered, and not just recently. When changing ones race becomes commonplace and there is decent research done on it, then I would consider it real. Until then, I think it’s an argument that just doesn’t fly.

  83. maria

    Nails,

    Then why is “ciswoman” still being used to address women who take offense to the term? What’s good for the goose doesn’t seem to be good for the gander, it seems.

  84. nails

    Maria,

    It may alarm you to know that this blog makes use of the term “honky” and “dude” regularly. Labels for privileged people are not as consequential as labels for non-privileged people. The consequences are much more severe for those lacking privilege. Other than some bs sense of principle applied to word usage there is very little reason that all labeling should be done with the same consideration.

    With that I conclude my 101 class, which makes me kinda sad to do here with folks who readily accept these premises when applied to their own circumstances. Use some empathy, its not super hard once you accept that the Other isn’t scary.

  85. yttik

    Nails, could you try harder to be patronizing? Your dismissive and elitist attitude isn’t coming through loud enough.

  86. nails

    yttik

    I am sorry I wasn’t nicer to all of you crapping on my trans friends with your privilege! Oh and hey, I think next I will start being nicer to men because they have made virtually the same complaint you just did about my tone whenever I stand up for myself. I should have seen how my attitude made my arguments wrong. Thanks for reminding me that being nice and inclusive to privileged people is the real goal of feminism.

  87. Bushfire

    Maria, try naming a legitimate reason why “ciswoman” would be offensive.

  88. Friend of Snakes

    @Twisty Jr., AKA nails

    “A place where an occasional member of the transgender grouping wearing female attire while genitally male masturbates instead of doing any of the above.”

    Is “confuses transvestites and transgender people” a spot on a bingo card somewhere? It really should be.

    Better wake up and smell the coffee, or read the GLAAD bible, or talk to some real transgender folks or sumpin. First of all, we don’t say “transvestite” nowadays because it is oppressive to transvestites apparently; the increasingly-enforced usage is “cross dresser.” And cross dressers are indeed considered part of the ever-expanding transgender category huddled together under the transgender umbrella of the LGBT.

    Take a short break, catch your breath and don’t try so hard to make bon mots.

  89. janna

    Confidential to Nails: If “Twisty Jr.” is the worst thing someone can think to call you, you must be doing something right.

    Confidential to Kitty: Is it difficult to always be on the wrong side of any given argument? Because really, you’re doing a bang-up job. Keep up the good work!

  90. janna

    Allow me to clarify my position. You’re anti-science, anti-art, anti-trans, anti-heartwarming-nature-crap. I don’t think I’ve seen one post with your name on it that wasn’t cringe-inducingly negative. Why do you even go here if you’re so vehemently against every syllable Twisty types? It’s a big Internet out there. I know for a fact that there are scads of other women writing blogs who are both anti-trans and pro-women’s intuition.

  91. yttik

    “Is it difficult to always be on the wrong side of any given argument?”

    It would be better to ask how one could be a rad fem, indeed, somebody advocating for a complete overthrow of the patriarchy, and not be viewed as being on the wrong side of every issue. If you’re on the “right” side then you’re busy advocating for the status quo and you’ll get lots of pats on the head.

    I’m certainly not against everything Twisty says, I’ve quoted her above and many other times.

    Is your position so weak that you have to call other people names and tell them to go away? It seems to be a familiar pattern of attempting to silence people, just label them squishy brained, call them a bigot, and ask them to go away.

  92. AlienNumber

    nails, it’s really nice to know that despite everything you still have friends, be they trans or whatever.

    (yeah, cheap shot)

  93. Kimberly

    I am amazed. Really amazed. In a space full of people who claim to be anti-patriarchy, there is so much footwork being done in the service of it in these comments lately. Twisty has stated her limits and boundaries for this blog. She has stated them repeatedly and clearly. In fact, there is a reminder to read that statement right at the top of the comment form here. You really can’t miss it. Still, let me repeat it for those who can’t seem to find the link : GUIDELINES FOR COMMENTERS –

    http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/patriarchy-blaming-the-twisty-way/guidelines-for-commenters/

    Do you know what we call it when you ignore the someone’s efforts to say no? When you act on or against someone without their consent? When one person violates another person’s boundaries and limitations? Think about that for a moment if you will, and why you’re doing it. Why you feel entitled to do it. Why you think it’s okay to ignore her wishes in her space and do what you damned well please. Oh, and to those who are inevitably going to say “She made some statement or random, oblique reference that I can twist to be about this!” Yeah. “She asked was asking for it!” is never a valid defense. Way to act like a man and remind us all that you don’t have to be a man to be a tool of the patriarchy.

    P.S.

    Jill, I apologize if I am being offensive and if this comment needs to be blocked or deleted. I know we don’t know each other and that you don’t need me to defend you or your space. I am just so sick of these people trying to make your space all about them and their personal agendas and showing you this level of disrespect. I wanted to add at least one voice letting you know your work and your writing are actually appreciated and respected. Thank you.

  94. Friend of Snakes

    Confidential to Nails: If “Twisty Jr.” is the worst thing someone can think to call you, you must be doing something right.

    Unconfidential to jenna:
    Both the recent quantity of her posts and her exhortations to other posters to cease posting and quit the site, lead me to believe that nails must surely be, if not a real Twisty doppelgänger , a junior co-owner of IBTP.

    Allow me to clarify my position. You’re [blah, blah, blah]

    You need to clarify who “you’re” refers to since you’ve placed no antecedent in this post. BTW, do you notice that you made a funny? You said you were going to clarify your position, then you immediately launched your sentence into someone else’s opinion. Let’s do the tighten up. Archie Bell and the Drells.

  95. Comrade Svilova

    I support transwomen because I don’t believe that women have innate gender qualities. I believe that gender is socially constructed behavior. And I believe that if a person born with dangly bits feels more comfortable performing the gender “woman” then I have no problem with calling that person a woman. And if that person feels that they must alter their body to conform with what society thinks a woman looks like, then I support that in the same way that I support any woman who feels she must dress in female drag to survive.

    Repeated for emphasis. We all need to survive. Now let’s fight the power together.

  96. Ruby Lou

    After considering various possibilities for splainin ‘ladies room’ to species 8472 from the Delta Quadrant, I think a video would be the best way. Assuming this species could be afforded some form of ocular assist for the videos of earth. Of course the video would have to include a description of the patriarchy, but we would want to do that anyway to show responsible hospitality to our intergalactic visitors. And there are some fabulous facilities in the casinos of the intermountain west that should definitely be in that video, as well as their wilderness counterparts. Seriously. And we’re going to need some representatives from the various points on the continuum of ‘female human’ to depict the discreet, respectful and gracious protocols of personal waste management.
    I’m just sayin

  97. janna

    You need to clarify who “you’re” refers to since you’ve placed no antecedent in this post. BTW, do you notice that you made a funny? You said you were going to clarify your position, then you immediately launched your sentence into someone else’s opinion. Let’s do the tighten up. Archie Bell and the Drells.

    The person I was addressing understood who I was talking to. I don’t really care whether or not you’re able to follow the conversation. Who are you?

    Also, of course I was giving my own opinion. I’m not qualified to give anyone else’s.

    Is your position so weak that you have to call other people names and tell them to go away? It seems to be a familiar pattern of attempting to silence people, just label them squishy brained, call them a bigot, and ask them to go away.

    Ooh, please tell me what names I called you, and point me to where I told you to go away. I just do not understand why you’re here, since you seem to disagree with absolutely everything. I was pointing out the fact that there are lots of other places on the Internet where you might feel more comfortable.

    As for the “wrong side” thing, I consider the wrong side of an argument to be the one that is anti-progressive, hateful, and oppressive. It’s the one that people look back on decades later and say “Wow, can you believe people used to be so backwards?” But it was cute how you brought back that old antifeminist nugget, “anyone who disagrees with me is an agent of the patriarchy.” I thought we (as a radfem collective) were past that, but I guess you just can’t let it go.

  98. roesmoker

    Thank you Nails for the explanation about the cortical homunculus because that makes sense to me. Still mulling over a lot of stuff but that was useful in the thought process.

  99. nails

    friend of snakes

    I asked people why they were staying. So did several other people because it doesn’t make a lot of sense to behave like that. I would ask the same on pharyngula or my blog, if I encountered similar behavior.

    Thanks, roesmoker.

  100. mybodyisacage

    Why do so many radfems act bigoted towards trans women, who are against the patriarchal worship of men? Why not look at the actions of certain trans men who are truly the ones who want to have their cake and eat it too in lesbian spaces? Instead, trans men are considered the “rock stars” of the lesbian world, proving that no matter where you go, manhood is considered god. I think the hatred of trans women and the deification of trans men is more internalized misogyny. And I say this as someone who does identify as trans and was female assigned at birth (and by the world at large to this day, judging from the number of comments such as “ugly dyke bitch” I have yelled at me from passing cars). Also, I wish blamers would aim their jaundiced eye in the direction of gay cis men for a change. They hate those without penii (and those who voluntarily give them up) just as much as straight men do. Drag is not a joke on femininity, it’s a joke on women (cis or trans) and genderfreaks like me who are interpreted by the p as the ultimate failure. Gay men are laughing at us, not with us, and it makes me sick that the kind of misogyny they espouse would be called out if its speaker was a het man, instead of being called “adorable” since it was spoken by a man who worships johnsons in general instead of merely his own. I know a gay man who has “born that way” tattooed on his arm, because, to quote him, “women and men are opposites. That’s how they were born. So are gay and straight. I’m a man who loves men by birth, and the idea that the sexes are alike is just wrong”. Ibtp.

  1. Spinster aunt has cute niece « I Blame The Patriarchy

    [...] Now that I Blame the Patriarchy has become the I Heart Transgender Rights blog, it is my duty as an absentee spinster aunt to encourage those readers who have questions about transgenderism to kindly do their own fucking research on their own fucking time. As opposed to infesting the comments with questions like “why should we call a MtF a woman?”. [...]

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