Aug 22 2011

LecherWatch ’11

What hotel maid wouldn't wannna get pronged by this sexy grandpa?

Well knock me over with a feather. Leering French fuck Dominique Strauss-Kahn’s gonna walk.

The hotel maid’s lawyer had predicted prosecutors would tell her Monday they were dropping the case. The attorney, Kenneth Thompson, told France’s RTL radio on Sunday that the woman, Nafissatou Diallo, “feels abandoned by the Manhattan District Attorney.” The questions raised about her credibility have made her feel “that she’s being investigated more than Strauss-Kahn,” he said. [AP]

That’s right, ladies. In the United States of America, in 2011, if you’re a woman with a “past,” it’s open season. If some old white perv violently attacks you, your bad reputation simply cancels out his criminal behavior.

Oh, and your looks are totally relevant.

“Nafi” Diallo is not glamorous. Her light-brown skin is pitted with what look like faint acne scars, and her dark hair is hennaed, straightened, and worn flat to her head, but she has a womanly, statuesque figure. When her face is in repose, there is an opaque melancholy to it. [Daily Beast]

In other words, a rich white guy wouldn’t have to rape such an unattractive menial, but he might want to fuck your melancholy, statuesque figure. He was merely using you as the toilet you are, which is perfectly legal and consistent with Global Accords Governing Fair Use of Women (under the Bitches Who Aren’t Virgin Saints Are Just Asking For It clause). So he flits back to France to resume his career as a nationally beloved dashing rake, while you get to spend the rest of your life as the gold-digging liar who cried rape, or simply the “DSK Maid.”

Photo: AP


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  1. lizor

    Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck.

    Sorry, but I can’t manage anything more.

    And the best hope of coherent resistance to our Bush-ite federal government here north of the 49th died this morning.

    Looks like it’s a whiskey/rocks kind of day.

  2. Fede

    DSK had better hope he never runs into me in a dark alley. And so had anyone who thinks that a woman who lies on an asylum application thereby forfeits her right not to be raped.
    I suppose they are implying, then, that DSK knew she had lied on her asylum application and was moved by righteous indignation to rape her for it. Because that’s a healthy sexuality; the employment of ones dick as a weapon an organ of chastisement.
    Fuck the patriarchy!

  3. allhellsloose

    He still awaits charges in France. There are crumbs of hope left; although he called the woman who brought said charges, unimaginatively, a liar too.

    Dangerous man now roams the streets.

  4. yttik

    There’s still the civil suit pending, and the maid’s promise to bring forth other women he’s violated. Women’s power doesn’t come from the benevolence of DA’s and prosecutors, (obviously since they’re always dropping the ball,) it really comes out of creating alliances with other women and building solidarity. These women are talking to each other now and this maid appears to be unwilling to sit back and accept The Way Things Are.

    The burden of proof in a civil case is easier in many ways. It also involves hitting him in the pocket book, which can get your point across much better than the usual rapist’s sentence of community service and probation.

  5. yttik

    I forgot to say, this guy spent a week in jail, lost his job, and was on house arrest. That’s more than most rapists ever experience. More importantly, this victim found her voice. She didn’t immediately blame herself and spend the next 20 yrs trapped in silence. She fought back, she continues to fight back, and that’s actually real progress when it comes to women’s rights.

  6. Liz

    Telling it like it is! I’m even more ready to move to Savage Death Island.

  7. roesmoker

    I expected nothing better from Rape Culture. Speaking of, PETA is launching a porn site:


    “Even though PETA’s intention is to improve animal welfare, some argue that the move to protect animals comes at the cost of exploiting women. A Facebook group, Real Women Against PETA, was created after the organization posted a billboard of an obese woman that read, “Save the Whales, Lose the Blubber, Go Vegetarian.” A headline for The Sydney Morning Herald once read, “Pro-vegetarian group treats women like meat.”

    But Rajt explains the motives behind these tactics are cleverly thought out and ensure they get results: “We try to use absolutely every outlet to stick up for animals … We are careful about what we do and wouldn’t use nudity or some of our flashier tactics if we didn’t know they worked. We also track the effectiveness of our actions very closely and see if we get visitors checking out other features on our site.”

  8. Rachel

    We try to use absolutely every outlet to stick up for animals … We are careful about what we do and wouldn’t use nudity or some of our flashier tactics if we didn’t know they worked.

    I try to use every outlet to ensure adequate nutrition. I wouldn’t eat animals if I didn’t know they have protein.

  9. roseh

    Awesome. The back of my mouth tastes like vomit now. Shanking DSK isn’t going to solve the larger, all-pervasive problem of the Patriarchy is the issue (although I would certainly hold him down so the victim could rip his spine out, Hothead-Paisan style).

    Since reading this blog and taking a critical look at how the P infects absolutely every nuance of my life, I am having a pretty hard time coping with daily life. I feel like the revolution can’t come fast enough. I feel so beaten down that I am having a hard time rallying. Any blamers have some advice?

  10. roseh

    Sorry about the typo. Please disregard “is the issue” in paragraph 1.

  11. Mildred

    I was recently talking to a woman who works as a Victim advocate. She was telling me that when it happens that a woman who is a virgin, who professes to be a virgin, makes rape allegations, CPS/the police, who make decisions as to whether there is “adequate evidence” (a series of value judgements about the victim) to go to trail, would possibly decide that it wasn’t a rape, it was a first time gone awry, and the “virgin saint” type is merely pressing charges to save face. It really depends which police officer or barrister has been assigned the case and their perceptions of women.
    So yes, even if Mother bloody Theresa was raped, they would just think she was a horny old nun.
    we’re all screwed.

  12. el

    I have yet another “beautiful” news of the day, which made me truly surprised – PETA’s future porn site:

  13. el

    Twisty, have you heard of impending PETA’s p*rn site? Sounds like something from Onion, but somehow is true.
    Used “*” since my last comment got stuck in moderatio, probably because of the link.

  14. Lovepug

    And this is why at this stage of my life I am pro-gun.

    It may sound like some warped, Sarah Palin-esque kind of thinking, but if more women kept a .38 on them at all times, perhaps the DSK’s of the world might think twice.

    NRA is still a bunch of idiot tools, and I find the violence worship surrounding most gun nuts off-putting, but I know for me that getting used to firing a gun has given me a certain wierd confidence. I spent many years as a liberal tree-hugger, but we all know that Liberal Dudes are strangely anti-violence yet rape apologetic at the same time.

    Liberal Dudes will not save us. The justice system will not always help us. So, I choose to pack heat.

    And a good dog at your side is also a great option.

  15. Mujerylegs

    It pisses me off that the DA and papers don’t call what happened to Nafi rape.

    It also pisses me off that rape crisis centers and police don’t tell victims who report: the burden of proof is lower and the pay-off for you is higher if you go civil instead of criminal. Get an attorney. Get reimbursed for some small part of this huge damage.

    I have reported a rape to police, and I would never do it again or recommend someone else do it. It is just not in women’s interests, the way the system is set up. You have other options. You should at least weigh them with full information before making a decision.

    But good luck learning about your options from the people who are supposed to be helping you. *Their* interests are served by perpetuating the current system. Yours are not.

    Mildred, you’re dead right about the virgin-can’t-be-victim thing. At least that’s one thing that can’t happen to a girl twice.

  16. Mujerylegs

    Lovepug! Our posts were ships passing in the night.

    I am also pro-gun (but anti-masculinist culture of violence), and wish all women packed heat to prevent violence.

    But carry laws are so spotty, and my frame is so tiny, I don’t carry. (I have a concealed carry permit, but work at a university.)

    So I literally just don’t go out whenever possible. It’s stupid. I can have freedom of movement, or I can be law-abiding. Why go outside?

  17. quixote

    Gag. Gag. Gagagagagagagagag.

    Yttik, you’re right. And I admire the hell out of Diallo for standing up to the dickheads the way she has. But I still gag.

    OT, but not sure about the packing heat business. Guns are very easy to take off people, especially smaller people, if you know what you’re doing. A dog, on the other hand, can’t be coopted like that.

  18. GMM

    I would have been horrified at the idea of owning a gun in the past, but now I think it’s something women should seriously consider. Look at PETA, we are even less than animals in their eyes. I think women are more on the level of insects as far as the worth and importance of our lives. Only a small minority of people would think it immoral or horrible to squash the life out of a grasshopper or ant, most people would laugh in your face for even suggesting it.

    Mujerylegs, I worked briefly at a hospital and I was the support person for the women and children who came in to get a rape kit taken, and would be also accompany them when being interviewed by police. I think it made a big difference in how the cops treated victims because they *never* said anything remotely victim-blaming in my presence. Either that or the cops in L.A. are more enlightened in dealing with rape than most cities…which I kinda doubt. In the U.S., you have every right to have an advocate with you at all times if you do press charges. If the perp doesn’t get any time, at least it’s on the record so if he rapes again, the next victim might have more of a chance. It doesn’t seem like much, and it isn’t any consolation to the person who does decide to press charges, but it might eventually put the rapist away.

    How sad is that?

  19. Sarah

    Roseh, I feel you. Wish I could say I had some advice that would help you cope, but I don’t. The vast majority of people and situations you have to deal with on a daily basis are going to either hate you or be oblivious to this crap. It helps to read this blog, and others like it – that way you know there are people out there that “get it.” Also? Try to find a feminist bookstore or some other safe space you can loiter in and soak up the slightly-less-patriarchy-saturated atmosphere.

  20. Mujerylegs

    GMM, sexual assault nurse exams, like the rest of U.S. forensics, are basically without scientific basis – http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12589.

    Besides which, letting a stranger scrape your nether regions while another stranger watches is not exactly emotionally neutral after a sexual assault. If you knew the prosecution and conviction rates for rape (single digits – yes?), then why would you go through that? And quite possibly be charged several hundred dollars for the pleasure?

    Anyway, there is an epidemic of prosecutorial inaction in the U.S. – http://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Injustice-America-Holds-Court/dp/0805074473.

    So, um, I reported the same rape three times and nothing ever happened. They say I decided not to press charges, but they never gave me the option. Waste. Of. Life.

  21. Mujerylegs

    My citations are caught in moderation, so I’m taking out the links and stating them instead.

    GMM, sexual assault nurse exams, like the rest of U.S. forensics, are basically without scientific basis – see the National Academy of Sciences 2009 report on forensics.

    Besides which, letting a stranger scrape your nether regions while another stranger watches is not exactly emotionally neutral after a sexual assault. If you knew the prosecution and conviction rates for rape (single digits – yes?), then why would you go through that? And quite possibly be charged several hundred dollars for the pleasure?

    Anyway, there is an epidemic of prosecutorial inaction in the U.S. – see Amy Bach, Ordinary Injustice.

    I reported the same rape three times and nothing ever happened. They say I decided not to press charges, but they never gave me the option. Waste. Of. Life.

  22. pheenobarbidoll

    I have zero issue with putting a bullet between the eyes of any man who tries to assault me. I may go to jail for it, but he’ll still be fucking dead. I win.

  23. GMM

    I only had a small part in the process so I have no experience as far as going to trial or anything after the victim left the hospital. I guess it gave me some hope that there was something a woman could do to at least not have to deal with obnoxious cops alone, and having someone there seemed to be a deterent to victim-blaming. And when getting a rape kit you don’t go in unless the victim requests it. But it doesn’t seem to be of any help after all.

    I’m so sorry Mujerylegs, I hope I didn’t sound insensitive or clueless. I’m trying to find some hope and right now the only thing I can think of is for more women to buy guns or pocket knives and not be afraid to use them. Or just wait for global warming to wipe our pathetic species off the planet once and for all. I’m just so sick and tired of being so utterly helpless.

  24. Mujerylegs

    GMM, you’re cool.

    I don’t see anybody’s hopelessness as a problem to be solved. It’s a motivator if you let it be. There’s a lot of patriarchy-dismantling to be done. You do your part, I’ll do mine, we’ll meet back here to be pissed and less discouraged.

  25. Bushfire

    yttik, your blaming chops get better all the time!

  26. sjaustin

    Besides which, letting a stranger scrape your nether regions while another stranger watches is not exactly emotionally neutral after a sexual assault. If you knew the prosecution and conviction rates for rape (single digits – yes?), then why would you go through that?

    I sure as hell didn’t. And then, because I chose not to endure being violated all over again and being questioned by some asshole cop who probably wouldn’t believe me anyway, I was verbally attacked by my rapist’s friend. I’m a liar, because obviously if it really happened I would’ve reported it!

  27. Mujerylegs

    sjaustin, I applaud your decision as both rational and fuck-rational-you-do-what-you-need-after-a-rape-valid.

    Reported rapes have always been in the minority. Statistically speaking, the probability of an alleged rape in a patriarchy being real is YOU FUCKING SUCKSUCKSUCK IF YOU ATTACK RAPE VICTIMS, plus or minus 4%.

  28. Mujerylegs

    quixote, dogs are a danger to people with mobility problems. Not everyone can walk a dog, or walk around one, and not everyone can fight.

    Also, I would like to see data on your statement that “Guns are very easy to take off people, especially smaller people, if you know what you’re doing.” Scratch that – it would be impossible to prove this in a valid way.

    Sorry, but this line of argument reeks of scare-mongering to me. “Put down that gun, pretty lady, you could get yourself hurt.”

  29. sjaustin

    Thanks, Mujerylegs. I did have the presence of mind to tell him that most rapes aren’t reported, and that of the ones that are reported, only a tiny percentage result in convictions. He did eventually come around, but only after he and the rapist had a falling out and he realized that he really was a violent asshole with control issues.

  30. Unree

    Civil suits for rape are difficult too. Tom Lininger, a law prof at Oregon, published a good law review article, “Is It Wrong to Sue for Rape?” (you can get a PDF of it by googling) about how judges allow defense lawyers to attack the credibility of women who have sued: She must be a lying extortionist, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, lookee here, she brought a claim to get money; really good ‘n’ pure victims wouldn’t dream of going after damages! Halliburton Inc./KBR beat a civil action for rape, and the civil action against rapist Ben Roethlisberger has been dragging for years.

  31. Mujerylegs

    Unree, thanks for these excellent points.

    I think rape crisis centers and police should quantify the criminal and civil *standards of proof*, plus the local and national *success rates* for both actions. This information should be provided to victims when they report, in oral and written form. This would let victims make informed choices. That’s (part of) the definition of informed consent.

    I think the success rate thing would get at the jest of your post?

  32. Judi

    Here’s what really fries my goat: even if we give le DSK the benefit of the doubt and assume, just for the sake of mental calisthenics, that this sexual encounter was consensual, why is he not being prosecuted for assault for the injuries that he unquestionably caused to her? Why is this not even being considered or recognized as an issue? Is he claiming that she also consented to have her shoulder ligaments torn? It’s almost as if any woman who consents to give a guy a blow job is deemed to have consented to accept any degree of physical injury the dude may care to inflict.

    This is the story we hear over and over:

    1. Some sex takes place between a man and a woman.
    2. The woman ends up with obvious, serious physical injuries, which could only be the result of a violent assault.
    3. The woman “claims” that the man raped her.
    4. The man claims that the sex was consensual.
    5. The woman is unable to “prove” that she did not consent to sex, so it is presumed that she did. So, as far as the law and public opinion are concerned, no “rape” took place.
    6. Case dismissed; end of story.

    But, what about the injuries? If I say to a guy, “I want to have sex with you now,” and he proceeds to grab me by the arm and throw me around the room and punch and kick me, leaving me bruised, bleeding, concussed, and broken, he’s totally off the hook because I “consented”? A woman who is injured during “consensual” sex gets no legal recourse, and no public sympathy. The law does not allow a woman to consent to sex without also forfeiting her right to be protected from violent assault. Women are given no way to agree to sex without being deemed to have agreed to violent injury.

    The legal system of our Patriarchy has no interest in protecting a woman who has consented to sex. The legal system of the Patriarchy chooses to see no problem here. Legally, men apparently have the right to hurt women during sex as much as they want to, with no fear of prosecution. Patriarchy does not recognize that sex could possibly exist without violence.

    This is especially peculiar in light of the fact that the law generally does not recognize the victim’s consent as a defense if the victim has been seriously injured. If I think it would be cool to have a gunshot scar, and I ask you to shoot me in the arm, and you do, the fact that I consented to be shot will not prevent you from being prosecuted for the crime of shooting me. The law does not allow me to give up my right to be protected from intentional, violent injury. Unless I consent to sex.

    Is there no way to give a man permission to have sex with you without also giving him permission to break your bones? ‘Fraid not. Next time the lights are low, remember that, once you say “yes,” there is almost no limit to the amount of violence the law will allow. This all makes me feel so sick.

  33. ashley

    Jill, thanks for being as scathing as you were about this.

    Just fucking ridiculous.

    I felt like she was totally degraded AND pornulated in that excerpt about her “pitted skin” or what the fuck ever..like the writer, who I’ll just go ahead and call “he,” was weaving some kind of “slutty backdoor maids” porn site copy. What a jackass.

    I think she has major ovaries to stand up at that press conference and say ANYTHING, given the pressure and threats she’s under as well as her cultural brainwashing, which is totally worse than what American women deal with.

    Fuck everyone who’s said anything shitty about her, and fuck everyone who’s letting DSK off the hook, because EVERYONE knows he’s a rapist, and all this is, is a little fuckin boys club cover up. FUCK THAT.

  34. Mujerylegs

    I <3 Judi. Good stuff, your smartness.

  35. ashley

    and I realize this qualifies as biting off your nose to spite your face, but if he gets Sarkozy’s job next I refuse to visit France until his stint is over. French women should ALL pull a lysistrata and force their men not to elect him.


  36. magriff

    I apologize for a) the levity in the midst of all this, and b) the possible redundancy, but I find this little spot quite uplifting when I feel like mocking sexy grandpas: http://sexyexecs.blogspot.com/

  37. Unree

    Awesome, Judi. Totally right.

    Mujerylegs, I looked into the success rate of civil suits but couldn’t learn anything. I think there’s no information. The Halliburton/KBR outcome sounds like a jury disbelieving a woman just because she ranks lower than a man. Reminiscent of Anita Hill vs. Clarence Thomas. Let us BTP.

  38. Erzebeth

    If that DSK pig did nothing wrong, why was he trying to flee the country? This whole thing is sickening – and yet I’m not surprised either.

  39. Former Blamer

    Pheeno, I love you.
    Before you put the bullet between his eyes, just give me a few seconds to iron his dick for him. With the Nabokov 2000 ™ Bratwurst Burner. (prototype under construction)

  40. Former Blamer

    We’re not the sex class. “Sex class” is too value-neutral a term. We’re the rape class. Men are the rapist class.

    Next time you read any news story, just mentally replace “sex” with “rape” and “man” with “rapist”.

  41. speedbudget

    Judi, you are right on. And the blamers pointing out that a virgin getting raped will be treated as someone with “buyer’s remorse,” along with your comment, made me think of something else women can never get right when it comes to rape: The amount of physical evidence of force.

    See, when I was raped, it was by a guy who was a linebacker on the football team. So he was huge. He was also a friend of mine. He was very, very drunk, and his friends had left him at the party. My roommate was gone for the weekend, so I figured he could sleep in mine, I could sleep in hers. What a pal I am; right? Always looking out for my friends.

    In the middle of the night, he proceeded to climb on top of me and use his full body weight to make me utterly helpless. I couldn’t shift him at all. All I could do was convince him to use a condom, since “you wouldn’t want to knock me up, would you? That would totally ruin your college fun times.” (Little did I know that bit of self-preservation would work against me.)

    I didn’t have ENOUGH marks on me. Forget the fact I could barely breathe, my arms and legs were pinned, I couldn’t move an inch. No, I must have wanted it cause I didn’t have any bruises on me.

    I never got to the police station. I was talked out of reporting before it even got that far. For those women who do actually get to the police station in those confused hours after their rape, I applaud you. I really do. I was so confused and shocked by what happened, I just believed the people around me in positions of a modicum of authority telling me I had to be mistaken.

    Oh, and he passed out then peed my bed with me in it. Talk about being a toilet! If that wasn’t a hint, I don’t know what is.

  42. Bushfire

    I never got to the police station. I was talked out of reporting before it even got that far. For those women who do actually get to the police station in those confused hours after their rape, I applaud you. I really do. I was so confused and shocked by what happened, I just believed the people around me in positions of a modicum of authority telling me I had to be mistaken.

    I was looking at some (ancient) books about helping rape victims in my university library yesterday. All of them involved how to deal with police and court systems. I was thinking “what kind of useless shit is this, anyway?” because I wanted advice on how to get over the terror of being used by another human who is going to get away with what he did. But that advice probably doesn’t exist, because you actually can’t get over the terror.

  43. Mujerylegs

    Unree, the fact it is hard to work out success rates for criminal and civil actions in local and national areas is part of my point. To give rape victims informed choices about how to take action in response to their ordeals, if they choose that action to be formal and legal, you gots to give them these numbers.

    Nobody does, presumably because that would be wooooork.

    Criminal versus civil standards of proof is easier. I think it’s something like 98% to 51% – blamers correct me if I’m wrong. I’m putting numbers on “beyond a reasonable doubt” and “preponderance of evidence,” since those phrases are dumb.

  44. Chantelle

    MAGRIFF: “I apologize for a) the levity in the midst of all this, and b) the possible redundancy, but I find this little spot quite uplifting when I feel like mocking sexy grandpas: http://sexyexecs.blogspot.com/

    Thanks for the link, which I turned upside down and all around, squinting, looking for the sexy. Alas, nothing. False advertising! *glares menacingly*

    Back on topic: Yes, I await the day when a powerful, wealthy man (particularly a white man) actually does his time for rape. If any blamer is aware of such a case which will restore some of my hope in the justice system, please feel free to bring it to my attention.

  45. smash

    Judi, *nice* blaming!

    Good on Diallo for reporting the rape. I hope the French woman’s case fares better. It sounds like she was inspired to come forward due as a result of Diallo’s having done so, and that is one good result.

    We all know DSK raped her. We know it! Everyone knows it, don’t they? He is scum.

  46. Unree

    Mujerylegs, the 51% notion is right for a civil action, but 98% is a bit misleading. “Beyond a reasonable doubt” doesn’t have any quantity attached.

    But what I am worried about is a civil case when the jury just doesn’t obey instructions (or gets bad instructions from a pro-rape judge) and applies the reasonable doubt standard when it should apply preponderance of the evidence.

    That’s what I think benefited Halliburton. Judges and jurors think it would be oh so terrible to enrich a woman who isn’t really entitled to money, even though the preponderance standard says go ahead and take that risk. So they err on the side of the rapist. It’s lawlessness inside the legal system.

    I agree 100% with your point about how we need outcome data about the two systems, so that victims can (sometimes) make a better choice to avoid the worst path.

  47. Val

    This site is both a blessing and a curse… Mine eyes have been opened, both to my own misery & all that surrounds me.

    When I think back over only **MY** experience, it is truly sickening how much of the “consensual” sex I’ve had, was in fact rape. Boyfriends, casual acquaintances, husbands – ye gads if I could change my sexual orientation by force of will, you betcha I would!


  48. phio gistic

    Not only did Halliburton win their case, now they are trying to force Jamie Leigh Jones to pay $2 million in court costs.

    “Jones’ lawyer Todd Kelly told WSJ’s Law Blog that his client doesn’t have the means to cover KBR’s fee request. “They have beaten us and now they are attempting to crush us,” he added. “This is an attempt by KBR to chill other people from bringing claims against them.” ”


  49. speedbudget

    “Beyond a reasonable doubt” is not “beyond all doubt.” It’s simply that you have to be as sure of someone’s guilt as you would be of making any important life decision. You weigh the evidence, and you give it the same thought as you would for any potentially life-changing decision you would make in your own sphere.

    The 51% is true. It is described as if you have a set of scales, all you need to prove guilt in a civil case is one iota more weight on the guilty side of the scales than on the not-guilty side.

  50. Judi

    There are other major issues with relying on civil lawsuits brought by rape victims. The civil and criminal legal systems have different purposes: the purpose of criminal enforcement is to punish the criminal with a fine or imprisonment; the purpose of a civil tort lawsuit is only to provide compensation to the victim. “Compensation” usually means reimbursement for monetary losses and “pain and suffering,” but only if there is also a provable physical injury. If all the bruises heal, and the “only” harm is psychological, the law sees no compensable injury and no lawyer would take that case. Even if there are provable injuries and monetary losses, and the case is brought and the plaintiff wins, the victim would often get nothing: insurance doesn’t cover rape, and many rapists are judgment proof (not DSK, though!). Since tort cases are brought on a contingent fee basis, and there’s usually no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow when the tort is rape, only a very small proportion of cases of rape, or of injuries during consensual sex, would end up making “good enough” cases for any lawyer to bring to court.

    So, the criminal system does a lousy job of punishing or deterring rape (one could argue that it actually endorses and encourages rape). And the civil system also does a lousy job of dealing with rape. And the rapists go free. Funny.

  51. yttik

    I know things are bleak, but I still get a kick out of watching Diallo. Maybe it’s an indication of where I come from, but watching her unapologetically declare she was raped and demand justice makes my heart sing. I mean who does she think she is, anyway? Maids are supposed to just suck it up, change their uniform, call in sick, and spend the next 20 years wallowing in shame. Holy crap girl, not only did you refuse to cower, you confronted a rich and powerful man.

    There is more than one way to win.

  52. Bushfire

    From the Toronto Star:

    Strauss-Kahn arrived at court in a six-car motorcade and was greeted by protesters wielding signs carrying such messages as “DSK treats women like property” and “Put the rapist on trial — not the victim.” The shouting could be heard inside the courtroom.


  53. Mujerylegs

    Commendation and deep nodding at yttk’s point. It’s almost like a Hallmark plot, in a world in which Hallmark BTP.

    Judi – you’re missing a foundational tort concept, intentional infliction of mental distress.

    Not a killer point. Killer point to me is that we don’t know what are the local and national success rates of civil versus criminal rape actions. Where to find the data?

  54. Mildred

    Here’s what really fries my goat: even if we give le DSK the benefit of the doubt and assume, just for the sake of mental calisthenics, that this sexual encounter was consensual, why is he not being prosecuted for assault for the injuries that he unquestionably caused to her?

    In another conversation I had with the victim advocate, she told me that she was currently handling a case such as that. The woman was raped but she chose to press charges regarding the physical assault instead (because it was her partner, she thought she’d have a better chance proving the physical assault instead).
    It was as simple as the dude claiming self defence.

    I was also told that if it is revealed that the woman had ever engaged in anything in her past that could be considered ‘rough sex’ that could constitute reasonable doubt, this was used in a case where a woman was raped by a stranger in a car park, she admitted in questioning that she had once used fuzzy handcuffs with an ex boyfriend.

  55. Laughingrat

    Oh, thank god someone just came in here and ‘splained how we women are supposed to deal with oppression. Whew! Nobody’s ever done *that* to us ladies before.

  56. Metal Teapot

    Flashing Lights, why should a woman report rape? Yes, there is a chance justice will be served, but in all likely hood it won’t. This is the fundamental nature of the crime, since the only people involved are suspect(s) and accuser(s) unless there is physical evidence of assult, you can nearly always have reasonable doubt. Each victim of rape, has to make up his or her own mind how to best emotionally deal with the scenario. Often this takes the form of denying what was done was wrong, and putting this down to how men are. That is something that will offend both radical feminists and men, but it is a coping strategy that I have seen friends use. In answer to what is the solution, I think a clearer concept of the importance of consent. There is an interesting link here http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/ about this. I do wonder if one of the reasons some men have an odd view of consent is it helps them rationalise some of their own sexual experiences, which may have been obtained under some form of duress.

    However, I don’t think women not reporting rape is the main difficulty. While some people will only been prevented from committing a crime because of fear of punishement, to take this strategy in general is to admit failure. We need people to consider the morality of their actions, and how they effect other people.

  57. Mujerylegs

    Flashing Troll, our best guess stats say 40% of U.S. rapes are reported. 6% of U.S. rapists ever spend a day in jail. (2-10% of rape allegations may be false, just like other criminal allegations.)

    Reporting rape MIGHT be altruistic, in the small likelihood it results in an arrest, prosecution, and conviction. And maybe the act itself is good for some victims. But it is not rational, and it is likely to revictimize the victim in all sorts of ways.

    It is cruel to tell rape victims anything other than the truth.

    Now I post my sources on those stats separately, for them to get hung up in moderation bc they are links.

  58. Mujerylegs

    False rape reporting stats: http://www.slate.com/id/2231012/

    40 percent of rapes reported; 6 percent of rapists spend a day in jail: http://www.salon.com/news/crime/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/06/17/winship_rape_backlog/

    You do the math: if a rape victim reports to police, what is the probability the U.S. criminal justice system will find her assailant guilty?

    (Hint: fuck the police.)

  59. Saurs

    Flashing Lights, you seem to be under the misapprehension that rape is an individual rape victim’s problem, that each instance of rape exists in a vacuum, and that the onus is on the victim to change the system and the larger, victim-blaming rape culture for the better by asserting their rights and, presumably, pressing charges. This is patently stupid.

    Presumably you’ve read the long fucking thread above your comment, so you’ve just witnessed the reliable first-hand testimony of a number of rape survivors and their advocates concerning just how fucked the system is, how reporting an assault gets the victim into legal and financial trouble, and how standard physical examinations after reporting an assault can be traumatizing, painful, and rape-y. Presumably you also crack open a newspaper once in a while, so you know all about how the media tries to shame women who report rapes by immediately taking the rapists’ sides while desperately scrutinizing the victims’ lives in a pitiful attempt to land a big, huge, profitable GOTCHA moment at precisely the right moment. God help the victims if they are not the perfect and most virginal white women, if they don’t possess a magical combination of womanly stoicism and patience, ethereal (but approachable!) good looks, quiet middle-class breeding, and enough broken bones and bruises to convince the bunch of hur-de-hur fratboy dickheads currently running the world that this wasn’t some kind of rough sex gone wrong. God help you if you’re a kid and you’ve been raped, and god help your fucking mother, if you’ve got one, because she’ll be accused of letting you run wild and seduce a bunch of totally innocent older dudes by getting them to kidnap and gang-rape you, ya little strumpet.

    The problem, Flashing Lights, is not that too few women report being the victim of a rapist. The problem is that too many women do. And as it is currently a misandrist slur of the highest water to suggest that yes, dudes are raping folk with great frequency, this is a symptom of a woman-hating culture, we gotsta start taking this seriously, we can’t actually discuss the mind-chilling numbers without a bunch of dudes wielding their mighty Sceptre of Carefully Applied Skepticism to try to work out why statistics must be wrong. No, the solution is: bitches be lying; those numbers can’t possible be true; rape fantasies!; delusional, hysterical cunt with a grudge regrets being a dirty whore!; Man-hater! That’s what you get when you ask dudes calmly, please, dudes, stop fucking raping and murdering us. That’s also what you get when you report it.

    So kindly shut the fuck up.

  60. Saurs

    I’m currently in moderation but Judi’s post at 9:17 is the greatest, forever and ever amen. Many times have I tried to articulate that precise point — consensual sex doesn’t generally end with broken bones, fellas! consent ends when torture begins! — but to little avail. SO GOOD.

  61. Metal Teapot

    Flashing Lights if you consider rape as random acts, performed against random people then your advice might make some sense. However, in the vast majority of cases rape is a violation of trust. To lead any semblance of a normal life women need to place a limited amount of trust in men, women do make assessments of the safety of a situation, and make judgements on whether a particular man is likely to attack them. However, these are often incorrect judgements, and that is a difficult scenario. Being able to physically fight a man off is actually surprisingly unrealistic, and since this is a trust issue there is a good chance you will be parted from any weapons. I think, there is no easy solution. If not being raped was easy or even controllable, no woman would ever be raped. However, I can see why, and support a woman who doesn’t want to report a rape. We have no duty to be altruistic. As for giving a reasonable idea of what will happen if you report a rape, I think that is important. A woman has to make an informed decision on what to do based on likely consequences. This is exactly what you advocate, of knowing your rights. However, it seems to have the opposite effect to the one you propose.

    I’m lucky enough to have not been raped, so this isn’t an issue I have had to decide. How to reduce the prevalence of rape, is a difficult question. First you’d have to answer what causes people to rape, and also why we don’t all do it. The answer to the latter for me, would be having sex with someone who doesn’t want it isn’t fun, this goes beyond the moral arguments, since I can’t even under the desire to commit the act, let alone bypassing your guilt to do it. I imagine a lot of people here would feel similarly. However, the prevalence of prostitution, and even strip clubs shows this argument doesn’t seem valid for a large proportion of men. Since I can’t comprehend this mindset, I find it scary, and would have no idea how to change it. I’d like to think rehabilitation programs might help, but I don’t have any evidence, and would be unsurprised if they just got people talking the “correct” language.

  62. Mujerylegs


    We don’t keep doing stupid shit that doesn’t work, costs money, and hurts us, such as reporting rapes to police when it turns out rapists don’t (usually) go to jail.

    Or at least we tell rape victims the truth about the odds of “success” defined different ways (e.g., criminal and civil options).

    It makes no sense to argue that the answer to violence against women is to keep doing shit that doesn’t work, and refrain from discussing how it doesn’t work (because that’s just talk! st00pid philosophizers!!). That’s like arguing we MUST keep bleeding the plague patients, because the docs don’t know any other treatments.

  63. AlienNumber

    Flashing Lights, you’re a man? Fascinating.

    If women tell you that going to the police is like a second rape and you keep saying, well, go to the police! (a.k.a. get raped again! Think of the other victims), we will not like that. Can you guess why?

    The radical feminist plan is not to continually badger the rape victims, but to change the pro-rapist laws to something less woman-hating, and to change the sex ratio of the police force, from 99% male brutes, to possibly at most 20%.

    In the meantime I’m with whoever talked about packing heat.

  64. Saurs

    Oy with the college boy and his analogies.

    Flashing Lights, yer not the first dude to come up with the ol’ You Ladies Aren’t Getting Shit Done Therefore Yer Yapping Ain’t Worth Dick point. I know you think it’s ingenious, but it’s a tired silencing tactic and it’s complete horseshit, anyway. You’ve little idea what folks here get up to outside the interweb (but, again, you’re ignoring women who’ve specifically stated that they work as advocates for victims’ rights) and you’re forgetting that the day-to-day grunt work of any philosophical organization is talk. Talk, talk, and more talk. Talk is healthy. Talk, particularly angry talk, scares dudes, which is why they want to convince us that it’s worthless, unhealthy, and productive.

    Women talking about their own oppression? / = / kids at university smoking weed on the floors of their cushy club room and pontificating.

    I’d just love it if for once a dude would announce, out of the blue, Smith/Lucretius/Hegel/dude-philosopher of your choice was a free-loadin’ turd who was all talk, his books mean nothing, his personal life is up for grabs. (Standard apology for abusive dude-philosophers of yore is the same for artists, in that it’s generally not up for discussion.) Love to hear it. Just once, just for a change. Until then, take your own advice, shut yer trap, and stop telling us how to do radical feminism.

  65. Saurs

    What is one to do in lieu of seeking legal action?


    You’ve been reading the archives, but you failed to pick that up? Haw. What are the odds.

  66. Mujerylegs

    Radical feminist rape-killing plan: give all women guns.

    Pay for them with the money we’re wasting on police departments.

    Two rape-related problems solved at once! (Initial assault and dual assault of reporting.)

  67. Nolabelfits

    Flashing Lights you are so freaking clueless and privileged its maddening.

    You know what happened when a young friend of mine took her rapist to court? He got off, of course. His defense was “he didn’t know it was wrong.” Why didn’t he know it was wrong? Because she posted a “sexy pic” on Facebook earlier in the day. They blew it up larger than life and had it on a big easel during the whole trial. Everyone knows a sexy pic means you want to be raped! She was asking for it all over cyberspace of course!

    The awful part of this is that this young naive 22 year old and all her friends actually thought justice was gonna be served in court that day. I, however, knew what the outcome would be before that fateful day. It was a crushing blow for all of them to realize that there is no justice if you are female and a crushing blow for me to witness them get a whopping dose of reality. She shoulda just slashed his tires or something.

    I’m so pissed off an anecdote is all I’ve got.

  68. Shelby

    6% of U.S. rapists ever spend a day in jail- how do we fix this? Where do we go?

    Mandatory estrogen shots for all males from the age of 11. All females be provided with tasers and mace spray.

  69. AlienNumber

    As a former philosophy major I agree with Saurs 100%. Those dudes, except for Spinoza maybe – and okay, Plato was overall rather egalitarian- were all free-loading turds full of bullshit. And oh how they suffered at the hands of other dude turds full of bullshit.
    I want my money back.

    Part C of the radical feminist plan is the mandatory castration of every rapist and every pornographer in the public square. Maybe Flashing Lights, as a dude, can help spread this news to other dudes?

  70. AlienNumber

    And one of those directions is how individuals act on a day to day level.

    “individual this, individual that”

    Oh shut up you whiny liberal.

  71. Saurs

    calling all men rapists, denying the existence of mutually engaged upon sexual acts, and otherwise decrying nearly all aspects of society are things that I do not find very productive.

    Hyperbolic MRA nonsense. No one said any of that. Cite it or shaddup.

    But I would consider it (not that any one person’s opinion matters) a tragedy if the most anybody got out of this blog was “wow, the patriarchy sucks, I hate all the people who help to replicate it… now I’m going to go along replicating it in my life because there is no way I can see myself beating it”.

    If you’re going to disingenuously claim that you’re A Big Fan and you’ve been reading the archives, the least you could do is try to clean up your lying bullshit and not leave if lying around for all and sundry to step in. Jill just fucking published a post about the merits of IBTP on commenters’ day-to-day existence, how women experience life-changing epiphanies and dudes send smug e-mails along the lines of “yeah, you’re okay. Good luck with that!”

    The way I, personally, in my narrow viewpoint, see as the best option is to know the laws, to know what steps need to be taken AHEAD of time to ensure 1) personal protection prior to an event and 2) personal protection following the event.

    You’re assuming, in your manly and incorrect wisdom, that women aren’t constantly on the look-out for shitty situations involving rape and dudes, that we’re not “constantly” “vigilant” about our surroundings, that we don’t have to make snap judgments about strangers because of the very real possibility of being attacked for no good reason except that we read as female and therefore as easy targets for predators, that we don’t have to watch our behavior around people we fucking know because we correctly interpret the statistics and understand that the chances of us being raped or sexually assaulted by dudes we know are greater than by a scary stranger in the dark.

    Your assumptions are wrong. You don’t understand or want to understand how women live. And the blithe suggestion that we watch out better for ourselves is insulting and offensive.


  72. Jezebella

    Quixotic, I’m with you: I think it would be way too easy for someone to get a gun off me and use it against me. I read somewhere that half the cops that get shot on the job get shot with their own guns. If cops can’t keep a-hold of their weapons, after having been trained in these situations, what are the odds I’m going to be able to do it?

    Also, it’s my understanding that the vast majority of sexual assaults are of the coercive acquaintance type rape that escalate from a non-threatening situation, and by the time you realize what’s coming your way, it’s too late to get out from under the dude and go get your gun.

  73. Saurs

    I don’t think the world is perfect. I think that far too many sacrifices have to be made by the innocent in order for us to put the bad people away, and all too often, the bad people don’t get put away.

    O goody! So you’re totally in favor of a mandatory curfew for all dudes everywhere, starting now, excepting dudes in public under the careful escort of two or more armed women, in order for the rest of us — you know, women, children, genderqueers, animals — to live our lives like most dudes do, free of fear that men will terrorize us? Right? Sacrifices innocent dudes must bear is cool with you, yeah?

    Oh, you mean the sacrifices women have to make? Well ain’t that sumpthin. I think we make enough already. Now scram.

  74. AlienNumber

    Read “Deep Green Resistance” by Lierre Keith (and the 2 dude authors). She gives sound advice about how to start a Revolution. The Revolution will take a lot of work and a lot of planning. And a lot of work. As a dude, this may not please you to learn.

    So, instead of writing 520 more pages here, go read the 520 pages of the book. Then go start an underground cell and do whatever you need to do.
    Stop harassing us females, especially those of us who are victims of rape. We really really really do not appreciate it.

  75. Mujerylegs

    Jezebella, Quixotic, ZOMG the patriarchy is making you afraid to defend yourself, and that fear is not based in fact!

    From Googling “police gun used against them” and hitting the first link, “Guns and Self-Defense” by Gary Kleck.

    “It has also been claimed that many people who attempt to use guns for self-protection have the gun taken from them by the criminal and used against them. Although this type of incident is not totally unknown, it too is extremely rare. In the 1979-1985 National-Crime-Victimization-Survey sample, it was possible to identify crime incidents in which the victim used a gun for protection and lost a gun to the offender(s). At most, 1% of defensive gun uses resulted in the offender taking a gun away from the victim. Even these few cases did not necessarily involve the offender snatching a gun out of the victim’s hands. Instead a burglar might, for example, have been leaving a home with one of the household’s guns when a resident attempted to stop him using another household gun. Thus, the 1% figure probably represents an upper limit.”

  76. Bushfire

    Twisty has the best way to end rape. You can find it here.

    As for feminist revolution: it goes something like this: don’t get married, don’t be a man’s property, don’t perform femininity, fight against all forms of oppression and force men not to commit violence against women by severly punishing those who do.

  77. AlienNumber

    Also, it appears that DSK wants to sue his victim in civil court for the damages she has caused to him (job loss, a little bit of public embarrassment). The sign of a true psychopath.

    I think smoke just came out of my ears.

  78. AlienNumber

    If you had read Twisty carefully enough, knob, despite the fact that she has a lady-brain and everything, you’d have memorized the exquisite line by now:

    “Emoticons: is anything sadder? :( “

  79. Mujerylegs

    “The thing that my male brain is stuck on is that, for me, reporting rape and legally tracking down the perpetrators to the ends of the earth until they are given their proper sentence Is part of fighting oppression and forcing men not to commit violence against women by severely punishing them.”

    Flashing Troll, what part of 94% FAIL RATE of reporting rape do you not understand?

    You want to punish a rapist? Talk to the men surrounding you about their attitudes toward women and sex. Reflect back what they’re doing that’s uncool. Stop the positive spiral of social rewards for misogyny.

  80. AlienNumber

    It’s not women’s fault that the “Justice” System tries to obliterate us when we try to bring rapists to justice and therefore rapists get off.

    If you want to know which of the men are rapists, just ask women and we’ll tell you. And then you can use your male aggression and go get them. Sounds good, right?

  81. nails

    “Part C of the radical feminist plan is the mandatory castration of every rapist and every pornographer in the public square. Maybe Flashing Lights, as a dude, can help spread this news to other dudes?”

    I think I wrote about this in the past, but am I the only victim who really hates the “I would do such horrible violence against the person who ruined you” type of shit? It leaves me in a tough spot. On the one hand, it takes assault seriously, but on the other it implies that I am so broken that someone deserves to be mutilated for it.

    For reals, honestly, what I really want is for the rapist to actually feel bad about what they have done. That is all i have ever wanted when men have treated me like shit (genuinely feeling bad entails stopping the behavior obviously so it isn’t a bad thing). The things that I have done wrong, that keep me up at night, are what keep me trying to do right. I want that kind of remorse from dudes who rape. That is more powerful than any violence. Most guys who rape are probably capable of understanding what they have done but have so many easy ways to avoid it. There are ready made excuses which makes it easy for them to lie to themselves about it. Societies that don’t do anything to get offenders to understand *why* their crimes are so fucked up just make them feel persecuted and make the whole thing worse. Cutting off a dudes balls probably wouldn’t foster what I would want out of being a victim of sexual assault (or actually prevent them from sexually assaulting others in the future). I obviously can’t speak for everyone.

  82. Mujerylegs

    Snaps for nails.

    Moving from D/s to post-rev is probably about replacing masculinity/femininity with empathy.

    But do we really want the police saying “let us inside your head so we can be sure you know WHY what you did was wrong”? That just seems like a recipe for another kind of abuse.

  83. AlienNumber

    By “castration in the public square” I mean – men need to suffer repercussions for their violent and hateful actions against females and this need to be known. Instead of what we have now, when men, like most recently DSK, not only get off, but get to sue their victim in court for “embarrassing [them].”
    Whether it’s public punishment or packing heat, something needs to be done. This is an emergency situation and frankly, we don’t have time to worry about rapists’ feelings when women are dying.

  84. Mujerylegs

    Public punishment requires women give up privacy AFTER an attack. Culture of shame = fat chance.

    Packing heat is more practical bc it might DETER assault.

  85. AlienNumber

    Alright, packing heat then.

  86. Mujerylegs

    There is no “we,” idiot troll.

    There are rape victims on a radical feminist blog with a no d00d policy. And then there is you, telling them what’s good for them.

  87. Saurs

    Please stop talking about your male brain, dude. It smacks of defensive posturing. Speaking to women, even on the interwebs, doesn’t require phony and condescending deference, as we are not delicate creatures. Using essentialist language (“mah little male brain,” “female intuition,” “male aggression” as though you are referencing biological categories) is different and distinct from shutting the old trap and believing us when we define and describe our own experiences. Part of living in a culture which values male experiences and contributions and devalues women is that, no, you don’t automatically possess, as a dude, the necessary tools to appreciate women’s lives. That’s how come and wherefore patriarchy hurts men. But such wounds — growing up to believe that one ought to treat women’s thoughts and feelings callously and suspiciously — are not as significant as ours. That’s a dilemma every man faces when he begins to acknowledge his privilege and every white person when they begin to acknowledge their white privilege: one has been blinded to other people’s experiences and has been led to believe that their life is both the default way of living and the correct way of living. You can get snippy about ladiez on the web silencing you, but that’s your privilege showing: WE ALREADY KNOW ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES. Existing within a second class means that the first class dominates all general discussion outside our small circle. We’ve heard it all before, and it’s fecking boring.

  88. AlienNumber

    ‘Whiny liberal’ makes sense in the liberal versus radical scheme, beautifully illustrated by Lierre Keith – and
    countless other really smart people – in her book(s).

    Liberals live in lala land and think that if we just talk to our oppressors and explain to them nicely that what they’re doing wrong, they will see the light and change their ways. Fat chance! It’s individualistic bullshit. Never has worked, never will.

    Radicals know that power only responds to force. Radicals know that society is organized by concrete systems of power, not by thoughts and ideas, but material institutions and the solution to oppression is to take those systems apart brick by brick.

    So stupid liberals will say “educate, educate, educate, individual actions” etc, but the radicals say – no, we have to stop them.

    Which is why I don’t plan on having conversations with my potential rapists when the moment comes, but I plan on carrying a nice gun.

    Really, go read that book and stop posting here. You are upsetting a bunch of us.

  89. AlienNumber

    Which is also why I cannot wait until Jill returns and bans you. Because she is a radical.

  90. AlienNumber

    As much as attitudes about women need to get changed, so too do attitudes about men.

    Okay, so go talk to men and change their minds, you fucking creep.

  91. AlienNumber

    I figured as soon as I outed myself as a male I’d get banned.

    No, as soon as you start spewing stupidity and refuse to listen, that’s when you get banned.

    Do you also ask undocumented immigrants who get robbed “why don’t you report the robbery” if there’s a 94% chance that they will get deported? Do you ask them 5 times in a row and refuse to accept their explanations? After they already explained to you 5 times? That’s what’s creepy.

  92. Mujerylegs

    I exhort all brilliant radfems with guns ablazing, let us not forget the don’t feed the trolls policy here on Savage Death Island.

    To wit (from FAQ, under Guidelines for Commenters): “Don’t respond to trolls. If you do, then, when I remove the troll, your response just hangs there in the breeze, a painful, nonsequiturious reminder.”

    I have fed the troll, and I apologize. I’m very sorry he’s upsetting you, AlienNumber. IBTP.

  93. Saurs

    Fer fuck’s sake. You’re like a spambot. Parroting the right words sometimes in the correct order does not an intelligible or useful ally make. It’s frankly insulting that you think a casual glance on some mere lady‘s blog (and, clearly, it’s been a pretty casual and fleeting glance) makes you an authority of a philosophy a couple hundred years in the making and with a history you can probably barely comprehend. You don’t even understand the fundamentals of what you’re talking about, and I’d hazard to guess you’d never try this amateur hour nonsense on another dude’s blog.

    Avail yourself of a few home truths: women’s liberation from male oppression doesn’t tip the magical balance away from some idyllic “dead center,” ‘cos this ain’t a zero-sum game, baby. Only whinging dudes, a’scared of wrathful worms turning, believe that liberating women means they themselves are going to be enslaved, or that (shudder to think) a matriarchy might be installed. The content of your commentary has no value because almost every dude skeptical of radical feminism comes up with similar jive. It also has the hilarious added bonus of smelling deeply hypocritical: you claim all we do is speak in vague terms but you’ve yet to say one concrete thing except some love-y dove-y shite about “equality.” Equality to whom? The radfem goal ain’t equality. You may want to rethink your obvious affection for hierarchy, ‘cos a proper revolution would render all that jazz obsolete.

  94. AlienNumber

    I also apologize.

  95. Metal Teapot

    Ages ago, I had to write something a group of us (all female) were submitting to a meeting. When I got it back from my co-authors I got told I’d written too female. I’d qualified my sentences with uncertainty, rather than saying “This is wonderful”, I said things like “This might be wonderful”. I always thought Flashing Light was male, of course he might be lying and writing like a man, as a woman. However, it is arrogant to assume you outed yourself.

    Men who say, don’t mistrust all men, are also the ones who don’t get angry women don’t do more to prevent themselves being raped. Yet they see no irony in their position. Meanwhile women spend ages wondering how to ensure they aren’t giving men the wrong impression, wondering if they are coming across too keen, and trying to avoid upsetting men. Yet, men still preach we have to consider their feelings more.

  96. tinfoil hattie

    Please stop feeding the troll.

    This is a dude-free zone. Ignore anyone acting in a dudely manner.

  97. GMM

    @Flashing Lights
    When they write clueless shit about rape victims and all the things they’re doing wrong, and they keep doing it after they’ve been told how upsetting it is to the actual rape victims here, it’s not hard to figure out it’s a dude writing. You’re one to talk about arrogance.

  98. Nolabelfits

    Flashing Lights you did not “out yourself as a dude.” It was obvious from your second or third post. Probably from the first post to the more focused readers. Its also obvious you have not read the Guidelines for Commenters despite the Hey You! message preceeding it.

  99. GMM

    At least.

  100. Nolabelfits

    In addition to turning this entire thread into one that is by, for and about him and his perspective, he can’t resist patting himself on the back on the way out.

    As in: At least you can’t say that I’m not self aware.

    I can pretty much say whatever the hell I want,dude.

  101. Chantelle

    Why are “men who explain things” so long-winded?

  102. stacey

    Couldn’t sleep, wouldn’t sleep.


  103. Bushfire

    I don’t want to badger anybody

    Good, then get the fuck out of here, because you’ve been doing nothing but badgering.

  104. Denise

    Shit y’all, why are we talking to this knob? Isn’t it clear in the Guidelines for Commenters that dudes aren’t welcome here? And I quote:

    Are you a dude? Or dudesque? Read this:

    This blog endeavors to cultivate dude-free discourse. Therefore, any comment that expresses views proceeding from any discernible male-identified perspective, even if it is superficially pro-feminist, is not suitable for posting here. Generally speaking, this means:

    If you’re a dude, don’t post here.

    I don’t read IBTP to read arguments with dudes about feminism. I can do that at any other feminist website on the internet.

    Fuck off, dude. We’re not interested.

  105. Jill

    Oh snap! A dude has slithered in and put one over on the ladies, talking about stalking them on Facebook. How original.

  106. Lovepug

    While blamers have their share of pie fights, we do look to IBTP as a respite (at least I do). We come here for dude free discourse because as it’s been pointed out, pretty much every other site on planet earth – feminist or not – has an abundance of dude discourse. For fuck’s sake, can’t we just have one little island of dude-free space? Just the one? Please, oh mighty patriarchy?

    I have to come here after any of my news reading just for a little breathing room. Even (and sometimes especially) NPR gives me dude claustrophobia and I need to head for the wide open spaces of Savage Death Island.

    And before the censorship card gets thrown on the table, it’s not censorship when 99.99999% of the world welcomes your dudely insight and this one blog asks that you kindly shut up. Censorship is when one of us makes a comment on the other 99.99999% of sites and gets piled on with a king-sized mansplain for our trouble so we go away thinking, “Shit, I’m never going to comment there again.”

  107. buttercup

    Stacey, I think you missed a few squares there.

    All this puts me in mind of Schroedinger’s Rapist from Shapely Prose. Except it’s the much less dangerous but still annoying Schroedinger’s Troll. One never knows what the response will be so one must assume dudely poster is a troll until proven otherwise.

    Then, when the blametariat is unconvinced of dudely poster’s ally status, the knives start to come out. The bingo squares are crossed off one by one. The cry of “WHAT ABOUT THE MEN” is heard all around the land. The only thing left to do is enpoopulation.

  108. Heather

    Flashing Lights,

    When/if you’re ever raped you go ahead and report it. Come back and tell us how that worked out for you. As for alternative ways to deal with a rape that would bring justice to the victim and make the world a better place? Hmmm, murdering him might land me in prison. Rape won’t though. Rape him back? Is that what you’re waiting to hear? Cause it’s all I got this morning.

  109. speedbudget

    I am seething.

    Don’t you FUCKING DARE to tell me how I should or shouldn’t have responded to having some fat bastard smash me into the bed, cut off my breathing, and shove his prong inside of me.

    Kindly fuck off and shut up.

    PS – Sorry to all the women here for responding, but I just can’t let that shit slide. I’ve kept my mouth shut about my rape for far too fucking long.

  110. Citizen Taqueau

    Jiminy Christmas, is the name of this blog “We Educate the Dudejams” now? Great long-suffering Mabel on the old rugged smorgasbord of shite.

    Beat it, knob! You are not offering anything novel or interesting. Go on over to MABTW and engage in your fascinating devil’s advocacy games over there.

  111. redpeachmoon

    “Now if I tracked down your facebook and started leaving you messages, THAT would be kind of creepy :PNow if I tracked down your facebook and started leaving you messages, THAT would be kind of creepy”

    no man should ever speak like that on this blog. how did you get in?

  112. Cyberwulf

    On women packing heat: by all means get a gun and learn to fire it if you think it’s a necessary life skill. But it isn’t a guarantee that you won’t be raped. Who brings a gun to a friend’s barbecue? Who wears their piece while they’re chilling out at home? Who can point a gun at someone they love and pull the trigger?

    Don’t let “why didn’t I/she just shoot him?” become the new flavour of victim-blaming.

  113. stacey

    Dude loves the sound of his own voice, doesn’t he.

    I was looking up stats for Canada, because sometimes I’m a big nerd, and was concerned that all the data seemed to stop in the mid-90s. However, I found a page with more current stats from the 2000s, (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-570-x/2006001/4054098-eng.htm) which are much more detailed than previous ones, with lots of info on spousal abuse.

    I also found this interesting chart about the economic impact of sexual assault – perfect for those who yammer on about “wasting” money on sexual assault centres and relief organisations. Waste this, assholes:

    Table 3

    Economic costs of violence against women


    Focus of cost estimate

    Cost estimate

    Geographic area

    Day 1995

    Medical, dental, lost productivity, drug and alcohol abuse, shelters and other services

    1.5 billion dollars

    Canada, 1993

    Greaves et al. 1995

    Criminal justice, compensation, medical, shelters and other services, lost productivity

    4.2 billion dollars

    Canada, 1993

    Kerr and McLean 1996

    Criminal justice, compensation, services for victims and offenders, shelters, lost productivity

    385 million dollars

    British Columbia, 1994/1995

    Bowlus et al. 2003

    Costs of child abuse to child victims and adult survivors: criminal justice, compensation, health, education, social services, lost earnings

    15 billion dollars, with over 11 billion dollars due to lost wages alone

    Canada, 1998

    Table source: Statistics Canada, 2006, Measuring Violence Against Women: Statistical Trends, catalogue number 85-570-XWE2006001.

    (I really hope that table works. Otherwise, here’s the link: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-570-x/2006001/t/4054088-eng.htm)

  114. pheenobarbidoll

    “Who brings a gun to a friend’s barbecue? ”

    Texans (sorry, couldn’t resist)

    “Who can point a gun at someone they love and pull the trigger?”

    If he’s assaulting me? Me.

    My daughter’s father kicked me down a flight of stairs when I was 6 months pregnant. A week later, I went to town on him with a bat. That was my “we’re over” speech.

    Now, I don’t advocate any woman just packing heat, but for some of us, shooting the asshole isn’t an issue. Don’t care who he is.

  115. Heather


    Right on about not introducing a new flavour of victim-blaming. Who’s date checklist includes a gun? Outfit. Check. Keys. Check. Condom. Check. Gun. Ummmm.

    Although, I might fare better in a world that expected me to shoot the rapist. Wink wink, nudge nudge.

  116. pheenobarbidoll

    That’s not new. ” She didn’t fight back” has always been in use.

  117. Lovepug

    Cyberwulf: totally get that. We can’t have idiot DA’s adding “Where was your gun?” to “Why were you wearing a short skirt?” and “Why didn’t you lock your door?” and “Why were you drinking?” And honestly, I trust a dog before I trust a gun. And agreed, there are places that unless you can carry concealed, you’d look like those open carry nuts who wanted to take their rifles to Starbuck’s. And of course, if you’re at work as is the case with DSK, you can’t carry your gun on the job.

    I don’t know. As I said, it’s a strange confidence. I look at it as one more way women can take justice into their own hands where the system is set up to fail them. And I think first dates with any man would be an excellent time to bring your gun. Family BBQs, not so much.

    Though I’m becoming a gun advocate in my cranky old age, I don’t think for one second that guns are a one-stop solution against rape. The only one-stop solution is for men to knock off all the raping already!

  118. Mildred

    @ Flashing Lights

    I hope you’re reading this, I didn’t know you were a dude at first but your response really makes sense.
    Recently, while at work I noticed how the men get changed right out in the open in the common staff room whereas the women come to work already dressed and made up. I thought, that must be the biggest difference between being a man and a woman, that sense of freedom a man has. If a dude just gets changed in a common area, in front of men or a few women he probably never thinks that a woman would be leering at him — getting off on it, or comparing his body to images of ‘ideal’ men, or worried that anyone who might see him would interpret this as a sexual signal, and if he were raped its unlikely that anyone would bring up the fact that he often got changed out in the open.
    I think that’s the thing that so many men don’t get. They have this almost constant feeling of being free and safe all the time (obviously depending on whether one is in a perceived safe or unsafe environment), and the feeling that people respect you, will listen to you, believe you.
    Being a woman is literally the opposite feeling — its being constantly policed and self-policed, of feeling like you always have to prove your credibility, but of course, I mostly feel like this world is not configured for me.
    See, to you, a rape should be treated as emotionally neutrally as a theft, and I agree! It should be! But the emotion, the distress is probably laid on most heavily by the fact that you know instantly that you are fucked, and the self-blame kicks in, why wouldn’t it? You probably know already that if you have done a single human thing in your life it going to be dragged out and exposed for all and sundry and that means no one is going to believe you.
    Rapists are clever, they target these women, the ones who no one will believe.

    What is the answer? Massive legal reforms. Extensive education programs, especially targeting young boys and men. Revolution.
    As for a woman who has been raped, I’d say it is a heavily personal decision and one should not be blamed or made to feel bad if they feel themselves unable to press legal charges. Knowing what I do about the legal system I don’t know that I could press charges myself.

  119. speedbudget

    Would someone get this rape apologist bastard out of here? The fact that you haven’t respected the boundaries of ANY woman on this blog, including the blog mistress, tells me and everyone in here that you are Schrodinger’s Rapist. You might not have actually raped a woman yet, but you certainly aren’t respecting the fact that every single woman in here has asked with varying degrees of politeness for you to SHUT THE FUCK UP and/or leave. Yet you won’t.

    You didn’t respect the boundaries of the blog mistress by deciding to forego her request to have no men comment because you knew better. Sounds a lot like the dude who raped me, who didn’t listen to my request to kindly desist with his attack, who decided he knew better than I what foreign objects I want shoved into various orifices of my body.

    SHUT UP. Nobody wants to hear anything you have to say.

    Jesus Christ.

  120. Linda

    Actually there are a few other radical feminist sites with strict no dudes policy. Those concern trolls are so long winded because they are so invested in being seen as Nice Guys that they have to go to lengths to carefully hide their misogyny in long posts which boil down to “shut the fuck up stupid bitches”. Invest energy in women not dudes.

  121. Mildred

    Wow, I wrote that prematurely, I feel dirty now for responding to the troll. Seriously, he says we should think about the men and that he COULD stalk us on facebook and then asks,
    in what way am I creepy?

  122. vitaminC

    I’ll give it a go, even though I know it’s quite futile.

    Rape victims don’t have the clout to get the laws and social mores changed. Any vestigial humanity she might have enjoyed disappears the instant she confronts her attacker. If anyone with a teeny tiny bit of influence gave a rat’s ass about rape (other than excusing the rapists, of course), IT WOULD NOT EXIST.

    Rape culture is terrorism aimed at women. It’s aided and abetted in order to perpetuate oppression. Full stop.

    But no, it’s easier to blame victims for not coming forward. Ya see, ladies, we need to be more like those clown-shaped punching bags and just bounce right back up after our beatdowns.

    Concern troll is concerned.

  123. Rididill

    Hmm. This thread is full of “painful, nonsequiturious reminders.”

  124. Mujerylegs

    vitamin C, re “Rape culture is terrorism aimed at women. It’s aided and abetted in order to perpetuate oppression. Full stop.” – I believe you just cured my jackass-induced scurvy.

  125. Marcie

    Gotta love all the torture and killing phantasies.

    And yep, get all the guns you can carry.
    Since so many here consider being looked at the wrong way as sexual assault, it’s gonna be fun times.

    Yet I thought the rapist lurking in the dark alley (the scenario in which carrying a gun would actually do any good) was one of the many rape myths.

    Don’t think, BLAME!

  126. tinfoil hattie

    Since so many here consider being looked at the wrong way as sexual assault, it’s gonna be fun times.

    “[B]eing looked at the wrong way” is indeed a form of sexual assault, depending on the look. As is street harassment. Certainly I don’t advocate shooting someone for leering at me. But it is, indeed, one minute example of the shit-tons of sexual assault women and girls face every fucking day of our lives.

  127. pheenobarbidoll

    And we can’t have individual women deciding for themselves how they’ll deal with a potential assault!

    If I choose to shoot the douchebag in the face (either before, during or AFTER given that I have no issue tracking him down later either) somehow now I’m supposed to feel bad?

    Yeah, I wouldn’t hold your breath if I were you. I don’t feel bad for protecting myself in any way I see fit. If someone doesn’t like that, I really could not care less. It’s not your body or life or risk. It’s mine.

  128. AlienNumber

    Marcie says “Don’t think, BLAME!”

    Well, maybe we should go and give men blow jobs instead and make lots of porn, because then men won’t rape us anymore. !

    Being armed, until the Revolution comes, strikes me as a wonderful solution to the rape problem.

  129. AlienNumber

    Oh, Marcie wrote this on another DSK post:

    (July 11, 2011 at 7:31 am)
    “So, fabricating a rape story for one’s personal benefit is OK?
    Practically part of fighting patriarchy?”

    We have a rape-apologist on the island!

  130. Fictional Queen

    And I’m pretty sure Marcie is a man because there’s no damn female in the world who confuses sexual harrassment with “being looked at the wrong way”.You see,we’ve been experiencing it since birth,we MIGHT just be able to tell right away if a male is leering at us.

  131. Jill

    Sez Rididill:

    Hmm. This thread is full of “painful, nonsequiturious reminders.”

    Yep, I had to redact our recent concern troll, Mr Flashing Light. Even after I banned his IP, he showed up using a different one, to show us his dick I guess. A real class act. Unfortunately, so many blamers had responded to him that what’s left is kind of unintelligible. One of the hazards of the blogular system.

    As always, ladies, please don’t attempt to engage trolls in meaningful discourse. The first blamer on the scene should make a crisp, sarcastic remark, and leave it at that. I’ll show up eventually to ban’em.

  132. Metal teapot

    Ah it seems that Marcie has no sense of humour!
    (The point becomes clearer about 5 or 6 minutes through)

  133. veganrampage

    Speedbucket, I am sorrier than words can say that you had to live through that and with it now. I read through this thread, and it had gotten derailed, and no one had a chance to acknowledge you, and if I can’t acknowledge and show sincere feeling for a woman who has lived through rape on a radical feminist site then what the hell is the point of living I ask you? So I acknowledge you. Truly, damn sorry.

  134. Amos

    If you have a gun, it is good to thoroughly educate yourself on the self-defence laws. Cops love a good story about offing a scumbag. It’s the silver lining on their thuggery.

  135. speedbudget

    veganrampage, thank you. I didn’t realize how much a little acknowledgment would mean to me. I am a little verklempt right now, and I thank Jill mightily and strongly for removing the asshole.

    Marcie, please quote someone who said being looked at the wrong way is equivalent with sexual harassment. I agree heartily with Tinfoil Hattie, who points out that being looked at the wrong way can be a form of sexual harassment, as well as Fictional Queen, who points out that as victims of such for most of our lives, most women can tell the difference pretty quickly. Can I ask why rape is so important to you as a form of gender war?

  136. amrit

    Rape is one component of how the P. reproduces itself. Rape, incest, pornography, economic control, objectification of women and children, abuse of animals and family pets, fetishization of gender and gender roles, and the ever-present threat of all forms of violence combine to recreate the P.

  137. amrit

    Oh, and religion, too.

  138. Michele

    I’d just like to say UH fucking HUH to Lizor who managed to get a FIRST in there with hir comment. Honestly- what WON’T famous white man-money buy?! Goddess help me, I’m a scientist and mother of a daughter and I want to put a y-canceller into the water just so her daughters don’t have to deal with this shit. Sigh…

  139. DaisyDeadhead

    Excellent post… at this juncture, not able to comment intelligibly about this disgusting state of affairs, but I’m glad all of you can… sdfgnabawerangfnbdnbasgjvabtwe … (runs gibbering into the night)

  140. Val

    The title says it all:


    It was sickening to see this piece of victim-blaming splashed across the editorial page of my hometown newspaper… What say we fire a few blaming email’s dear Esther Cepeda’s way??


    (I’ll go first)

  1. Is it Snap Time Yet? « How to be a Rad Fem

    […] Rape sentences are measly and the trials are often made ridiculously difficult for the victim. […]

  2. Everybody ignores rape « nettleburn

    […] that have gotten a bit of the wrong kind of publicity.  First of all there is the terrible case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn raping a hotel maid.  While I am extremely proud of the victim giving up her anonymity and participating in interviews […]

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