Oct 15 2011

Storytime Korner

Hotel San JoseWell, a couple weeks ago Stingray and I were prancing up S. Congress Ave after having anointed ourselves with hipster fumes at Jo’s, when this wacked out hipster kid comes careening toward us, chanting nonsense. His bearing was somewhat aggressive, so we said “nyah!” back at him. He gave us the once-over with a stinkeye that seemed to suggest that he wouldn’t be at all surprised if we turned out to be the cause of the economic downturn. Then he actually jeered.

“You’re just too stupid,” went the jeer, “to know what I’m talking about!”

Stingray and I exhanged a chuckle as we passed, going, “yeah right, we’re too stupid, that’ll be the day.” We were confident in our lack of stupidity because we have never in our lives been the intellectual inferiors of some rude stoner gibberish-babbling kid who by this time had alighted on the stoop of the Hotel San Jose and assumed a recumbent, yet somehow hostile, pose. The mysterious words were oozing out of him like blood.

“What did that shit even mean?” I said, dodging a pair of American Apparel models.

“Yeah,” said Stingray, “what a load.”

What was the stoner kid chanting?

“Occupy Wall Street!”

Photo: Scene of the burst of solo stoner activism. Hotel San Jose, Austin TX, February 2006.


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  1. Freya

    There have been some fantastic feminist slogans sighted at Occupy.
    How bad is the media black out in America? Australia is showing a decent amount of coverage. Yesterday “Occupy” was staged in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne. To show that support for the 99% is global.

  2. nails

    Your economic privilege is showing. We have privatized insurance so lack of jobs is something that physically injures and kills people for being poor. People are needlessly suffering and dying for the crappy decisions made by 1% of the population, and you’re making fun of them for taking to the streets? I am just baffled at how you could not care about what is going on. Finally people are doing something about social problems that affect the country and it is “nonsense” to endorse it? I guess I would be less upset if there was actually a coherent criticism leveled at people who think occupy wall street is important.

  3. Laurie

    You got me, Twisty — didn’t even see that punchline coming.

    And what a punch — beautiuful. I choked up a bit, even as I laughed.

    Here in Far NorCal, Tea Party Central (home of the self-styled “proud right-wing terrorist” lauded by our congressman as a “great American”), our Occupy protest today @ Chase Bank drew 200 — an unheard-of number for any progressive rally.

    As the director of our local women’s clinic said, scanning the huge crowd, we’ve been having demonstrations here for 20+ years, and never got anywhere near this kind of response. But today’s crowd was yelling (rightfully so) about corporate corruption and jobs and the Fed — money matters — and our earlier rallies were anti-war and for abortion, Native and gay rights and the environment.

    IBTP, but still, I haven’t been so excited about possibility in this country for decades. And really, in the larger sense, this movement is about so much more than money: human rights over profit. That MUST mean feminism.

    P.S. Nails, I think she’s kidding us.

  4. Laurie

    Beautiful. Worth saying again, spelled correctly.

  5. Ayla

    Thank you, nails

  6. Freya

    I interpreted this piece as saying, I”m embarrassed, that I only now heard about Occupy Wall Street” I don’t sense any mockery to the movement.

  7. allhellsloose

    Good satire Twisty, and I’d like to add to it (except my addition is a fail)


    Yay! Men will take notice of women so long as the message they hold up is supported by a ‘hot chick’.

  8. speedbudget

    Freya, the media blackout is pretty bad. I have to search blogs for coverage that doesn’t involve some privileged asshole at a newspaper or television station telling all those kids to get off somebody else’s lawn.

    I went to my state’s solidarity rally yesterday. My state is generally very apathetic. I was shocked, SHOCKED to see about 100 people at the beginning of the rally, and more and more people showed up as the day went on. Retired veterans, retired teachers, people like me who have jobs that pay well but are struggling harder than we did five years ago, people who don’t have jobs, people who are so desperate they are willing to take jobs paying $4 an hour. It was a beautiful thing.

  9. Comrade PhysioProf


  10. Jill

    You misunderstand me, nails. The point of the story is that the obnoxious rude kid was right, I was stupid; the dude’s repetition of the mysterious phrase “occupy Wall Street” sounded like nonsense to us because we had not heard of Occupy Wall Street until that moment, and only later did we discover that he was alluding to a fucking global movement that’s now all over the news. Cheeses, I hate having to explain my jokes to you humorless hairy feminists!

    I am not offended, however, that the automatic assumption is that I am a total asshole. That shit is a blogger’s lifeblood!

  11. Jill

    By the way, however compelling an anti-capitalist youth movement may seem — which I agree, it’s heartwarming and inevitable — don’t expect the American revolution ideology to contain lofty patriarchy-smashing goals. The liberal dudes in charge of the protest will undoubtedly make sure that it doesn’t. They always do.

  12. phio gistic

    I noticed the ‘hot chicks’ coverage as well, I assumed it was part of the trend of dismissing the protests in any way possible. Other tactics include characterizing protesters as “smelly hippies,” “trustafarians,” “privileged whiners,” “hipsters,” etc.

  13. crickets

    That link to hot chicks of occupy wall street is the creepiest thing ever. Complete with hilarious comments about how the women are all hippies, so it should be “hairy women”, not “hot women”. Unfortunately, what the video really showed me was that these women, who look “alternative” and probably think of themselves as individualistic, are still so easily filtered through the patriarchal lens of fuckability, categorized into types, and marked accordingly. There is no individuality.

  14. IrishUp

    “The liberal dudes in charge of the protest will undoubtedly make sure that it doesn’t. They always do.”

    IrishUp has been Hatin On The Man Since 1970, when, as a wee lass she boycotted her favorite food in the world (grapes) upon having those people with signs in front of the market ‘splained. The decades since have convinced her that unless and until the young doodz reject P, it doesn’t matter what the Newest Dood Movement is, the position of the %1 will be secure.

    Here’s some evopsych you’ll never gander in Psych Today: It’s been observed in several species of social great apes and more clever monkeys, that new behaviors originate in the kid-to-young-adult age group. They next spread to the adult females and some of the males. They’re not adopted by the “Alpha Males”. Not even if they confer advantages.

    In 20yrs of research on barriers to adopting Evidence Based Medicine in several different sub-fields, I have seen this dynamic over and over again. Old doodz rarely if ever get with the new program, and vanishingly-rarely to never pay any consequences for failing to adopt new strategies – even if what they’re doing/failing to do has been shown to be harming or killing patients in large studies.

    When you are at the top of your social order, you don’t come down, you are simply supplanted by the next generation if sufficient momentum happens below you. When you are THIS FAR at the top:

    well, that’s some RADICAL change to get anything like what’s needed to happen. As long as young doodz are thinking that someday *they’ll* be in the 1% (and DANG! how many of them are convinced they will be!!!!), P is safe, and OWS is so much show.

    *Sigh* I should have more coffee.

  15. Tigs

    I’ve been down to Zuccotti Park a few times in the past month–not enough to claim that I’ve been occupying anything, but enough to get a sense of the flavor of it all.

    Of those down in the park, there is an unfortunate percentage that is loud white boys who really believe that they and their drum circle are changing the course of history.

    However, there are also a fair number of women and POC speaking and getting heard–and seemingly getting involved in the central organizing bodies. They have a POC working group, and a women’s working group (the name of which I am unsure what is–it seems to have been started because the drummer boys were rubbing up against the lady dancers in problematic and certainly non-revolutionary ways), as well as a fair number of women and POC (and shockingly, even a few WOC) in “facilitation,” the rotating organizing body. It’s not a very visibly queer crowd, but I haven’t been around enough to see how heteronormative things are.

    I have been following critiques of the language and political organization of occupation (see: http://www.racialicious.com/2011/10/11/decolonization-and-occupy-wall-street/ actually, go read everything that racialicious is writing about occupy–it’s a great conversation), and I think they are right to a certain extent. However, I’m not sure if the response that seems to make the most sense for me is to turn away. My sense from being down there is that this isn’t focused on just economic inequality, but rather seeks to resist those systems that naturalize and legitimate that inequality, which is largely what I understand patriarchy to be. I’m pretty sure those white boys who were boring the hell out of me at 5:30am on Friday morning aren’t as clued into the struggles of indigenous peoples and others as they ought to be, but I’m not sure that means the movement can’t be (and maybe people who are trying to be good allies–like myself–need to be down there talking more to make sure that decolonization is a concern that is always at the center).

    I’m interested. I think this is important. I really hope that this isn’t just another patriarchal, racist expression of political rage. I’ll next be down there on Tuesday afternoon, and we’ll see how it all keeps going, right?

  16. pheenobarbidoll

    Wall Street has been occupied for 519 years. Just ask the Algonquin.

  17. Lishra

    “don’t expect the American revolution ideology to contain lofty patriarchy-smashing goals. The liberal dudes in charge of the protest will undoubtedly make sure that it doesn’t. They always do.”

    Exactly. This is about their freedom, not ours. I wrote a post yesterday on the “Hot Chicks of Occupy Wall Street” video, which is just one reason we shouldn’t count on these dudes for true revolution [http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/10/15/we-are-the-51/]

  18. janna

    I have a friend running for state house of representatives and he’s been in Occupy Denver for the last week, posting status updates. Part of me feels like I should be there protesting with them, and I feel like a tool for being all “Revolution this!” and “Revolution that!” and then not showing up when an actual protest is taking place in my town. But I also have so many commitments, such as the 17 little children who rely on me to go to work every day and teach them how to read and about the world. If I wasn’t there, who would tell them about Christopher Columbus? So I just feel conflicted.

  19. Sarah C

    don’t expect the […] revolution ideology to contain lofty patriarchy-smashing goals. The liberal dudes in charge of the protest will undoubtedly make sure that it doesn’t. They always do.

    Occupy London had Julian Assange speaking.

    Across the political spectrum, men who are considered important can get away with raping women and children.

  20. anarres

    Yeah, when I heard Julian Assange spoke at Occupy London Stock Exchange, that was basically a kick in the teeth. I really support this movement and at the same time, there is zero solidarity for rape survivors. Ugh.

  21. amrit

    Sarah C: “Occupy London had Julian Assange speaking.” OK. I’m vomiting here.

    Occupy Tucson is going full tilt. Armory park was full by noon yesterday. The police were issuing citations to individuals last night, but the tents remain up and people are occupying the park.


  22. Stella

    I have been down to Occupy Austin (less than I would like, because I’ve been working 50+ hour weeks in my job in fundraising from rich white people).

    I hear that yesterday, they had about 2000 people show up.

    They have a daily General Assembly, held at 7pm so that more working people can make it. They have a committee working on organizing childcare. Today, my (male) partner is going to a Queer Theory teach-in down there, and he’s also organizing a reading group. He has also been writing articles about the “movement” (if you can call it that): http://deemable.com/us/2011/10/dispatch-from-the-first-two-days-of-occupy-austin/

    And I’ve been working on a photo essay, here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stellatex/sets/72157627872610036/

    According to Nigel, the group, which is usually about 200 strong for General Assemblies, has been explicitly working toward increased participation for women and other “minorities.” There are no leaders. There is a facilitation committee that trains anyone who is interested in leading assemblies and other committees (working on everything from direct action planning to public outreach to diversity to health, and on and on). The group has seen a big spike in participation from women. Efforts are being made to ensure that the floor is not monopolized by white dudes. In fact, in Zucotti Park, there is a hierarchy of speaking, with white males made to wait until all others who want to speak have had the floor.

    I love this movement. The rage, the reluctance to appoint leaders or make “demands,” the refusal to be coopted by electoral politics (the whole point is that we see the futility in electoral politics; see: Emma Goldman), the solidarity between libertarians, hippies, disaffected yellow dog Democrats, socialists, anarchists, the unemployed, the homeless, students, youth – it’s beautiful.

    We know what happened to the 60s. Let’s learn something this time.

    Solidarity. Occupy everywhere.

  23. Cootie Twoshoes

    The Occupy movement is one of the most exciting socio-political events I’ve ever witnessed. That said, I’m also painfully aware of the sexism that has floated to the surface. Listening to men talk about their “brothers” in parallel occupations is grinding my last nerve, but I refuse to give up on this.

    I recommend Democracy Now! as a reliable news source with a social justice mission: http://www.democracynow.org/

    Pheeno, your point makes me think the 99% could also refer to the current colonizers. If decolonization could become part of the protest discourse, non-indigenous people marching and chanting “We are the 99%” would transform into an admission of guilt as well as its current declaration of solidarity. I’m up for that conversation.

  24. Laurie

    Yes, Pheeno, we were talking about that hideous irony yesterday at our march.

    John Paul Montano’s “Open Letter to Occupy Wall Street Activists” should be read at every Occupy General Assembly until it sticks.

  25. Laurie

    Damn — messed up the text link. Montano’s “Open Letter to Occupy Wall Street Activists” is here:


  26. josquin

    I for one am not up for that conversation. Let’s kick a hole in the OWS demonstrations by making the 99% equally culpable and therefore invalid? Decolonization (mass deportation of all non-native residents of North America) may be a nice thought, and fervently hoped for by some, but it is an impossible scenario. Focusing on that as a goal will nullify all attempts at righting or at least decreasing current imbalances. I hope OWS will thrive, spread, and enact change and that its inevitable sexist and racist fumes will be ignored, coughed aside, kicked aside, like the farts they are.

  27. yttik

    What’s not to love about a bunch of middle class white dudes protesting their oppression? Who doesn’t like a good testosterone fueled anarchy march?

    Who doesn’t like watching women being used, literally in the sense of all the requests for free condoms, and figuratively as in making sure it is the women who are in the bullpens getting pepper sprayed, the women who are sent in to occupy the bank lobby and get arrested.

    I wish we’d learn that men always come selling freedom. The freedom to be a sexual commodity, the freedom to support our dude movements, the freedom to wear a burka or the freedom to empower yourself through porn and sex.
    Freedom is always such a seductive word for women. We fall for it every time.

    But you never know, the last time the dudes built a big movement, women realized they were tired of being fucked for freedom and they got together and gave birth to second wave feminism.

  28. pheenobarbidoll

    Not invalid, ironic.

    And from even lesser known racial blogs, racist as all hell. THAT makes the news, um never.

    There are WOC being called n-words by Boston occupiers, and then told they may NOT speak, there are NDNs being told their oppression is long over (on occupy Regina…go take a look at their FB page and see the wonderful treatment NDN’s are subjected to.) but hey, let’s ignore that because there are far more important things at stake.

    Decolonization isn’t mass deportation, by the way. It’s the exact same thing all the occupy Insert City Here people want. A voice and a fucking chance.

  29. pheenobarbidoll

    “What’s not to love about a bunch of middle class white dudes protesting their oppression?”

    It’s a perfect example isn’t it? They get a taste of what women and POC live with and they march en mass to protest.

    People on reservations and living in ghettos haven’t noticed a difference. Women aren’t exactly unfamiliar with the unfairness of not being paid for the work they put.

    But now, NOW it’s trickled down to middle class white dudes and we can’t have that.

    Honestly, it’s like standing in the middle of a room that’s on fire and the white dudes finally look of from the recliner and say ” hey, I think I smell smoke!!”.

  30. Lidon

    I don’t have much to add except to say THANK YOU ALL for articulating so well what has been brewing in my mind from the onset of all this.

  31. Jezebella

    And this is why I’m pleased that there is an Occupy Mississippi movement in Jackson, but I’m not going to go up there and camp with the liberal dudes. I’m too busy trying to stop a fucking horrible law from making this state uninhabitable for women. There are also people trying to stop a new voter ID law that will disenfranchise the poor in Mississippi (which is a large population). Occupy can do their thing, and I’m going to do my thing. It’s all tied together.

    Also, I fucking hate drum circles.

  32. pheenobarbidoll

    h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXC_xBC384I&feature=related

    I’d like them if they were this

  33. Tigs

    josquin, echoing phenno, decolonization does not mean we all get up and leave. Hell, where are we all supposed to go– I have Irish, English, Welsh, German, and Norwegian roots (yes, I’m a honky).
    If you look at what traditionally marginalized people are asking, it’s for Occupy to recognize the power dynamics within their community as they build it.
    David Graeber, one of the longer-term organizers of the movement, says that the one of the primary thrusts of the movement is: “You’re creating a vision of the sort of society you want to have in miniature. And it’s a way of juxtaposing yourself against these powerful, undemocratic forces you’re protesting.”* It’s not a matter of getting side-tracked, it’s a matter of building a movement that is ethical and coherent–which I think many occupiers are interested in doing (even if, in their privilege, they are hesitant to do the hard work).

    Also, a mass movement that isn’t attentive to these issues is never going to be able to mobilize the mass. I’m certainly not going to buy into, ‘we’ll deal with your issues later,’ and I’m privileged as all hell.

    If you don’t start off working against oppression, you’re never going to get to it.


  34. Kea

    In my experience, 99% of people shut up when paid off. Many speak loudly now only because they themselves are suffering. That is the key to a real revolution, to be sure, but how many true revolutionaries are there amongst them?

  35. Comrade PhysioProf

    Yesterday in Washington Square Park there was a black dude leading a pretty large white-dominated OWS crowd in an enthusiastic call-and-response concerning the role of racism in economic injustice. My sense was of a crowd of decent people willing to confront their own race privilege, but it could have just been lip service.

  36. pheenobarbidoll

    h ttp://complex-brown.tumblr.com/post/11275788186/black-out-at-occupy-philadelphia-we-had-a-black

    “We had a Black Out! at Occupy Philadelphia. Why?

    Saturday, two sisters were called N(word redacted)s by two of the volunteers at Occupy Philadelphia at the cell-phone charging stations. They were also told to go back to Africa, and that each white man should own a slave. When the sista’s called security, security asked them to leave the premises because they thought they were apart of the UHURU movement. Even if they were a part of that movement, they should not have been asked to leave. Especially without any mention of their verbal and spiritual abuse.”

  37. Ayla

    At 4 AM sobbing my eyes out because I had just come to recognize the fact that I most likely have a serious health issue that I quite literally cannot afford to visit a doctor about, I was indeed a humorless feminist who was willing to jump to assholish conclusions.

    Jill, mea culpa.

  38. Jill

    Serious health issues. There’s nothing like’em for making everything not funny. I’ve had one myself lately. Turned me into a regular Principal Ed Rooney. Best to you Ayla.

  39. amrit

    Just came back from Occupy Tucson. Disheartened, but not surprised, by the leftist white boy hegemony there. A (very) few women in leadership, but it’s still a big party for the boys.

    Was volunteering legal services to deal with all the misdemeanor criminal citations, 40+ so far, but I am sorely tempted to just to shut off my cell phone…

    There are some rumors that the Occupy Tucson website removed posts from some feminists discussing the crappy frat boy behavior and seeking redress.

  40. Jill

    There are some rumors that the Occupy Tucson website removed posts from some feminists discussing the crappy frat boy behavior and seeking redress.

    And so it begins.

  41. Amrit

    Yeah. “Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.”
    Some things never change.

  42. tinfoil hattie

    And so it begins.

    Yeah, this is why my enthusiasm hasn’t exactly bubbled up.

  43. tinfoil hattie

    Good health to all. Please.

  44. pheenobarbidoll

    I just found out that a friend of my daughters was forced by CPS to get on implanted birth control.

    Does anyone with any legal background know if this is (legally) a violation of her rights?

  45. amrit

    “Fun” Challenges at Occupy Wall Street.

    Found this on the web. With this approach we are doomed. I especially like the bit about our being raised in “imperfect communities which did not educate us well on these issues.” No need to actually divest oneself of power and control, just move to a different more edumacational community.

    I respectfully demur. My community of origin was just perfect at inculcating the near absolute belief that the world and it’s political destiny was in the hands of white men. My education was complete and nearly seamless. I saw women and children abused, ridiculed for speaking up and punished for challenging patriarchal authority. I saw people of color arrested, abused by the police, and economically exploited on a daily basis. I’m wondering what “issues” I failed to learn about there?

    A LOVE LETTER to Occupy Wall Street… (aka “How We Will Win.” (User Submitted)
    Posted Oct. 13, 2011, 3:33 a.m. EST (3 days ago) by calebrthomas (Ithaca, NY)
    Dear Occupy Wall Street,
    I just wanted to send a message to you to express how much I want us to succeed and about some (fun) challenges on our path.
    For us to be successful I think it necessary for us to build an inclusive movement across race and class lines.
    Unfortunately, racism, classism, sexism, patriarchy, homophobia, anti-semitism, sizism, etc. influence our movement. We were raised in imperfect communities which did not educate us well on these issues.
    My hope every decision we make in our occupation movement will consider diversity and inclusion and that all our committees make it a priority. I think if we do, our revolution will be recognized as more grounded in reality and relevant to all. Also, when we are actively inlusive, no one feels excluded.
    I appreciate facilitators using “progressive stacks,” offering voice first during our meetings to those from groups traditionally marginalized throughout our society. I am especially supportive of this until our local movements reflect the demographics of our communities.
    When we are wondering how to best undo sexism, it is clear that we listen to women’s voices and follow women’s leadership whenever possible in this struggle. For LGBTQ rights, it makes sense to follow LGBTQ folks for they know best what homophobia looks like in our society and their vision is key to undoing it. The same goes for issues of race and class.
    I’ve posted an article below. Beginning to end, I appreciate this it’s overview of Occupy Wall Street and our possible future. Please repost/forward it to help others envision this reality. Also, here is that wonderful video of Cornel West.
    Thank you all for your leadership in the world everyday!
    ~ Caleb
    Cornel West at OWS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r5Is57R0lc
    How we can win: http://www.alternet.org/vision/152614/how_the_occupy_wall_street_protesters_can_defeat_the_corporate_elite?page=1
    0 C

  46. angie

    [d]on’t expect the American revolution ideology to contain lofty patriarchy-smashing goals. The liberal dudes in charge of the protest will undoubtedly make sure that it doesn’t. They always do.

    So true and worth repeating. Honestly, it’s why I can’t get too enthused about it. Whatever happens I know I’ll still be making 77 cents for every dollar a man with my same job does.

  47. angie

    @pheenobarbidoll — I do have a legal background & I can tell you that no one should give you any kind of legal advice on the internet besides the fact that there are way too many factors that are unknown to me to even attempt to counsel her properly. For instance, did a court sign an order compelling her compliance? The only thing I can say to you is: “It depends.” (The typical lawyer CYA answer).

    The best thing for this woman to do is seek out counsel — in person, not just on the phone. She can call the local legal aid in her city which to set up a free appointment & an attorney there will counsel & represent her either pro bono or on a sliding scale based on her income. If she doesn’t know how to find one, start by calling a nearby law school, as many run free clinics and if they don’t they will certainly be able to direct her to the local legal aid office. She should bring all documents she has regarding this matter with her when she goes to the appointment.

  48. Rain

    Yeah, liberal white d00ds. they’re everywhere, which is why I didn’t go to Occupy Tokyo. No mention of it in the local media either.

  49. amrit

    Pheenobarbidoll: I also have a legal background and I agree with everything angie says above.
    The only thing I would add is that in many jurisdictions, if CPS (or an equivalent agency) has been granted (even temporary) legal custody of a child, the parents (and the child or children) involved are provided with court appointed counsel. It is only when the parents are not qualified as indigent that they are told to retain private attorneys. Of course, this varies from state to state.

  50. Other Liz

    Jill, I hope your humour-sucking health issues have gone away.

    Here in Melbs, they have 17 sleeping tents, a child care tent, a “dry” policy for alcohol, all sorts of good organisation and about 80 people at most (plus 50 bored police). They’re not so much occupying as sleeping out, marching places and begging people to join them.

  51. pheenobarbidoll

    As far as I’m aware, her CPS worker told her if she didn’t then they wouldn’t allow her to go live with her father and would deny him custody.

    This after she reported that she had been raped. They didn’t believe her and gave her the ultimatum. And now she has to have it removed, because it conflicts with other medication she’s on and could cause her to bleed out.

    I didn’t want to tell her family to contact a lawyer if all they’d hear is ” sorry, nothing can be done”.

  52. angie

    @pheenobarbidoll — with all due respect, you are proving my point. First you wrote CPS “forced her” and now you wrote they told her “if she didn’t” (a choice, even if a draconian one). IMO, there has got to be more going on here than you are aware.

    This woman needs to go herself to an attorney & tell that attorney everything that is going on (with as much documentation that she has) in order to receive the proper advice. As amrit properly noted, laws vary state to state, so it needs to be with an attorney licensed to practice in her state.

  53. pheenobarbidoll

    Hopefully her dad will contact someone. She’s only 16 so I don’t know if anyone here would take her seriously. Her mother is in prison and can’t do anything from there.

  54. angie

    A 16 year old can contact,set up an appointment with, and have a consult with an attorney. If she needs her dad to give her a ride, then of course he can go with her. Heck, you could give her a ride. If she wants to be taken seriously, she should call & make her own appointment & be prepared when she gets there to tell the attorney the whole story (without prevarications). If she does that, she’ll be taken seriously.

    And the answer could very well be there is nothing that can be done, but at least she will know that based on sound authority from an attorney licensed to practice in her state and not from someone without the entire story on the internet.

    That’s all I’m going to say about this. Good luck to her.

  55. pheenobarbidoll

    I’ve found them 3 that I think would be good choices. 2 of them are known to take cases for low income people on occasion so hopefully they get some sort of resolution.

  56. piratequeen

    Ayla, can we help? I’m at goodcook at veloma dot com.

  57. Jill

    IBTP is not a message board, and is not the place to solicit free legal advice about personal matters. Please consult with your local legal aid office. This thread is about Occupy Wall Street.

  58. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Got into a huge tussle with one a my favorite liberal dudes last Friday about Occupy Wall Street. He is a howling capitalist, me not so much. He cannot quite grok the fact that I don’t give a fuck (no, not a single fuck) what happens to his almighty Portfolio. He, being a civil servant, has had his already-overpaid salary frozen for the next five years. Being a lowly contractor, I have taken a 20 percent pay cut, which is mostly my food budget. Things like investments ain’t in my reality. He is having a hard time wrapping his liberal-dude brain around the fact that most of the country is like me, if we’re lucky enough to be employed.

    And I am heartily sick of being handed Ye Olde Shitte-burger and being told to take a bite.

  59. pheenobarbidoll

    Sorry Jill. It wasn’t a request for legal advice as much as it was ” this sounds like human rights violation against a girl because she has a uterus” and wondering if anyone with the knowledge could confirm it was. I specified legal because what we know to be sexist rights violations against women isn’t always illegal.

  60. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    And while I am the 99 percent here, to the rest of the world, I’m the 1 percent. A sobering end to my self-pity party.

  61. Insurgence

    Finally people are doing something about social problems that affect the country and it is “nonsense” to endorse it? I guess I would be less upset if there was actually a coherent criticism leveled at people who think occupy wall street is important.

    Not trying to be snarky at all here, but doing something? What are these people doing, seriously, besides wasting their energy?

    That’s the beauty of it nails. You can’t purposefully criticize something that doesn’t have a coherent aim in the first place.

  62. Jill

    “Wasting energy.” That phrase drives me nuts. DudeNation, for example, tells me all the flippin time that I’m “wasting my energy” on this blog. When I should be, you know, doing something constructive. The constructive thing I should be doing is always some cause that the critic himself believes in but is too lazy to mess with personally. Like, why am I wasting energy complaining about Dove Toenail Deodorant when I should be putting a stop to FGM in Rwanda?

    Acts of subversion are automatically worthwhile, particularly when Authori-tay calls them a waste of energy. Even when they fail.

  63. phio gistic

    I live near a football stadium and have spent many a happy minute fantasizing about how to capture all that wasted energy and redirect it to something constructive. All that kinetic energy wafting into the sky. All that muscle power. All that mental energy. All that money. All that electricity. All that booze. All that enthusiasm! If only I could capture it and focus it, I could levitate the Pentagon! If only I could get just 5 people that enthusiastic about social justice!
    My football-loving friends are vaguely sheepish and sympathetic when I start raving about this. At least they are nice enough not to call me a wet blanket, concern troll, or mad scientist.

  64. speedbudget

    OWS is a different animal than we are used to in protest movements. From what I have seen there is at least lip service to making consensus before coming to any decisions, and with this many people, getting a consensus can be tough, so it takes time to get a resolution together. That said, it is prompting other protests to spring up, such as Move Your Money day on November 5, when everyone is exhorted to close their accounts at the big bank and move their money to a local credit union. I think these smaller protests are where the traction of OWS will gain momentum. As people see progress with the smaller protests, there will be more impetus to get a consensus in the larger.

  65. Saurs

    Where’s the subversion, exactly?

  66. yttik

    “And while I am the 99 percent here, to the rest of the world, I’m the 1 percent. A sobering end to my self-pity party.”

    Well said.

  67. Sarah

    The only OWS coverage worth reading: Right here, folks.

  68. Daisy Deadhead

    Interesting synchronicity, since I am dealing with sexist pigs in the Occupy movement right now. Bringing in more women is the way to handle this, IMHO.

    Saurs: Where’s the subversion, exactly?

    When Faux News accuses the rabble of Class Warfare, the poor scared kids used to obediently reply Nuh-Uh! We love capitalism! It ain’t that, really it isn’t! NO class war from ME! etc etc

    Of course, the proper answer is always: “THANK YOU! Class Warfare HELL YEAH RIGHT ON I SURE AM!!!!! CLASS WARFARE IS GOOD GOOD GOOD!” etc etc

    What is subversive is… I am actually starting to hear the correct response, instead of cowering whenever Faux News bleats “CLASS WARFARE!”–people are starting to say, hm, what’s so bad about class warfare?

    Never thought I’d even see THAT MUCH in my lifetime.

  69. Saurs

    You see class warfare, I still see a group of mainly white, mostly young folk defending, with fairly unsophisticated slogans, the existence of a middle class and all its attendant privileges. Nowt particularly radical about people who want just a little bit of economic change, just enough that they get to enjoy all the unearned prosperity and prospects their parents and grandparents did in post-war white suburbia. They want their old status quo back, the one they were promised.

  70. Saurs

    I also see no evidence of solidarity with the working poor, especially poor people of color, which again leads me to believe that few people involved want to annihilate the class system so much as they want to make sure that they’re all right Jack, they’ve got theirs, they’re back where they belong. This claim that there is a “war” on the middle class has got to be one of the most self-involved, hypocritically bullshit things I’ve heard in a long time from self-professed radicals; how long has there been an unofficial war on the laboring classes?

    And what’s with the persistent and continued use of the word “occupation”? Fuck, is that ever thick-headed and insulting.

  71. pheenobarbidoll

    “And what’s with the persistent and continued use of the word “occupation”? Fuck, is that ever thick-headed and insulting.”

    Thank you!!!

    yttik- Yup. Was only a matter of time.

  72. Triste

    “The mysterious words were oozing out of him like blood.”

    Whoa. Gawth.

  73. Daisy Deadhead

    Saurs, all I can say is, it sure isn’t like that here in South Carolina. I am white but I am 54 years old and unemployed, or I wouldn’t have the time (oddly enough) to do this stuff.

    Have you been out to talk to the Occupy people in your hometown? You aren’t getting all of your news about us from the mainstream media, are you? EVERYONE is currently getting involved, so some people are “a little bit against capitalism” — and some are radical anarchists and socialists. Protesters are politically all over the lot, and I think that is the movement’s strength.

    Saurs: just enough that they get to enjoy all the unearned prosperity and prospects their parents and grandparents did in post-war white suburbia

    You talkin to me? Some of us did not come from prosperous people, of any generation, nor did we come from suburbia.

    Saurs, this is the first time this redder-than-red state has had ANY leftist activity since… well, the Civil Rights movement. Do you come from some liberal area that takes liberalism for granted? Because this movement has energized the progressives in conservative areas like SC, that has had precious little lefty presence since the union busting days.

    War on the middle class is NOT bullshit… They have decimated the poor and now they are moving up to the middle class and are taking their money too. Capitalism is rapacious and ravenous and must acquire more or die. And maybe people are starting to get that?

    Are you saying we should just do nothing, in that case?

  74. Daisy Deadhead

    okay, moderated here too? What did I say now?

  75. yttik

    The exploitation continues:



  76. pheenobarbidoll

    I don’t think Jill moderates by poster.

  77. tarian

    Perhaps I’m still in the throes of idealism (what? at this age?) but there are some things happening that make me wonder if perhaps the revolution is possible. Yeah, it’s a dood, but David Graeber’s bit on anarchy as an alternative was thought-provoking. What does a society without domination ideology look like? (Caution for google-fu, the dood does not really consider women’s oppression as part of the domination ideology.) I’m having some interesting conversations with people about what it would look like if we all abdicated from the current oppresion’n’shit, did away with money, and turned ourselves into a gift economy. Maybe unrealistic, but it’s at least heartening that we’re having the conversation.

  78. Jill

    “I don’t think Jill moderates by poster.”

    I barely moderate at all, if I’m honest. It is mostly automated. When your comment gets held for moderation, it more than likely contains a sequence of letters that, at one time or another during the past six years, was found in the screen name of some asshole I had to ban. So, like it says in the FAQ, don’t get bent out of shape. I will liberate your work of genius eventually.

  79. pheenobarbidoll

    “And maybe people are starting to get that?”

    White middle class people don’t typically NOT notice when they get treated like the poor POC.

    They’re starting to get what some people (non white…living in 3rd world poverty) have been saying for oh, about 519 years now. Your system is shit, and one day it will eat you too. Didn’t listen until white middle class ass got bit though.

    Didn’t bat an eye at choosing the word occupy either. As if they have an inkling of what it really means.

  80. Freya

    “Feminist author Naomi Wolf cuffed at protest outside Skylight Studios in Manhattan”


    I have no idea if that link will work.

  81. Darragh Murphy

    “the dood does not really consider women’s oppression as part of the domination ideology”

    Right. So he should take up space in my mind exactly why?

  82. Insurgence

    Point taken Twisty. I guess I’m just not convinced that protesting is subversive. It seems rather run-of-the-mill to me. “Here is the system, and here are the channels you are allowed to rebel in.”

    Yeah, it’s a dood, but David Graeber’s bit on anarchy as an alternative was thought-provoking. What does a society without domination ideology look like? (Caution for google-fu, the dood does not really consider women’s oppression as part of the domination ideology.) I’m having some interesting conversations with people about what it would look like if we all abdicated from the current oppresion’n’shit, did away with money, and turned ourselves into a gift economy.

    I don’t know who this dood is, but I am a huge fan of voluntaryism/anarchy/gift economy. And if anyone needs a primer on it, allow me to suggest audioanarchy.org. The government, all governments, are the ultimate patriarch and must be smashed before any of us, women especially, will be free.

  83. Saurs

    Yes, Daisy, I was addressing you, as you provided an answer to my (largely rhetorical) question.

    Do you come from some liberal area that takes liberalism for granted?

    I don’t really know what that means, but I’m not a liberal. You’re correct that the “Occupation” folk are mostly of a liberal bent, which is perhaps why I’m skeptical of their credibility as a “force for change,” rather than as a small and temporary reactionary group with little interest in even moderate social democracy, and hardly left-wing; reformers, rather than radicals, which is the American way.

    US-style liberals are more or less the philosophical heirs to classical liberalism of the laissez-faire variety (you know, real or figurative imperialism as means of subsidizing a shrinking economy, policing the world for the good of free trade through quasi-paternalist ventures abroad, the codifying in real law of the sanctity of private property to the detriment of human rights and common law, with a good amount of twentieth century-style lipservice paid to a particularly American kind of multiculturalism, a certain laxity of moral outrage against minor social “deviance,” perhaps a nod and a wink to the rights of the laborer now and again.)

    I don’t know. This seems to be enough for most people. I suppose it’s a victory for previously deeply right-wing folk to decide liberalism might be (temporarily?) beneficial for them and theirs? Calling it subversive is a bit of a stretch. Is it subversive or naive to agitate for a Kinder, More Humane Capitalism, Better Masters, Corruption-Free Politics? That horse has been flogged long enough by the democrats, but perhaps that party might take advantage of our new-found optimism and idealism to make a killing at the next big election. That’s change we can all hope for, right gang?!

  84. Saurs

    By the by, Daisy, I’m not saying that the “war,” if you like, on the middle class is a fantasy or a fiction; I’m saying that that slogan is problematic and of limited use, and if our future revolution, as such, is only to be actuated by bourgeois fears and bourgeois values, it’s likely not gonna be much of a revolution, not much help in alleviating the pressures always felt (always ignored by the meedja) by people occupying the lower social strata who’ve never had access to the kinds of privileges and social and economic safety nets the middle class once universally enjoyed in this country, worry- and consequence-free.

    Are you saying we should just do nothing, in that case?

    As Jill is wont to say, we’re most of us here to talk about revolution. I don’t think the Occupy groups are going to be precipitating that, to be honest. If pulling one’s savings out of Bank o’ America to be deposited in a local credit union, or summat, is the height of revolutionary activity, color me unimpressed. Who the fuck has savings to be shuffling around right now, anyway?

    And, again, I’m not going throw my support in with a group of people who are so self-involved and blind to their own white privilege that they feel comfortable freely using and then defending colonialist language like “occupation.” I’m just not. Flavia at Tiger Beatdown recently penned a post proclaiming that her feminism would be intersectional or it would be bullshit. Same goes for my anarchism.

  85. speedbudget

    I am glad that anybody is talking about changing anything, to be honest. I am just glad the conversation is being had. Thanks to the Wall Street protests, I have had some very good conversations with my conservative father and have actually gotten him to change his positions on some pretty fundamental economic grounds. He has gotten me to change my positions on some esoteric stuff that he knows a LOT about. We wouldn’t have even been talking about these economic details were it not for the protests, and we can’t be the only ones.

    And while it might seem useless, moving your money out of the big banks en masse will very much affect their bottom lines. There are churches I was reading about that are moving their $500K+ accounts to the local credit unions. While each of us might not have a whole lot of money, TOGETHER our money counts for something (just look at the economy as an example. Without a bunch of people with decent money to spend on junk, the economy tanked, even with a bunch of rich people stepping up their purchasing). Regardless of how much money you have, it’s still a better deal for you personally to have your money in a credit union. Firstly because there are no fees to have the privilege of using your money so that the CEO can walk away with his $11M bonus each year.

  86. speedbudget

    I’m only about halfway through this, but I felt like I wanted to share this article with you all, because she does have a point.


  87. Darragh Murphy

    Sexual assaulters at Occupy Baltimore will be offered counseling, and victims will be “allowed” to contact police if they really, really feel it’s necessary.


  88. tinfoil hattie

    Where there are dudes, there will be rape.

  89. amrit

    Darragh: I’m having flashbacks to the 70’s left in the US, and not the good kind either. That post on crayfisher is chilling. It’s like the doods have some internal clock that keeps getting reset that says “i’m entitled. I’m entitled.” They just never learn.

  90. Lisbeth

    This comment doesn’t directly relate to the post, but is relevant to Darragh Murphy’s post about women who are sexually assualted being “allowed to contact police if they really, really feel it’s necessary”. I have just been to an equal employment opportunity training session today at work and was appalled by the definition of sexual harasssment. Sexual harassment occurs when a “reasonable person” would consider a particular behaviour intimidating or offensive. There is no such necessity for the inclusion of “reasonable person” in the definitions of other forms of harassment in the workplace. The HR trainer went on to explain the reason for including “reasonable person” in the definition. She used the example of a woman raising a complaint against a former partner. It seems that it is okay for a man to sexually harass a woman whom he had a previous relationship with. Apparently women can’t be trusted to be reasonable when making sexual harassment claims. I work in a male dominated industry and regularly experience sexual harassment. Why did this surprise me?IBTP.

  91. angie

    The revolutionary genius behind “Hot Chicks of Occupy Wall Street” speaks:


    Warning: it’s about what you’d expect.

  92. ivyleaves

    Yeah, I agree about all of the “middle class” angst. Obama uses that all the time – he’s gonna help the “middle class” – i.e. the nice, decent folks who are entitled to get back some of their taxes, and not the great unwashed folks on welfare. Ugh to all of that.

  93. Daisy Deadhead

    Saurs, by liberal area, I mean, do you live in a red state or blue state? How did your city vote in the last election, and is this the pattern?

    I live in Jim DeMint’s old congressional district; Rick Santorum has proclaimed it the most conservative county in the USA, and he has no argument from me. Thus, I don’t have the luxury of ignoring this. True, many local people’s politics are undeveloped and accommodationist. But, baby steps. These are people (such as ex-textile workers, displaced by outsourcing) who have been economically beaten down their whole lives and have believed it is their own fault, and they are just now putting the pieces of the puzzle together. Aside from the occupation (I consider that a “war term”, and again, we learned war terms from the people who make the wars; we ARE making war on them, or at least I am)–I want to be there to participate when people are radicalized, I want to influence the directions they ultimately go in. I can’t do that from the sidelines. The conversations have been incredible, I never thought we could even have these in upstate South Carolina.

    And don’t underestimate the sheer thrill of all of us being in a room where we can say “Jim DeMint” and everyone makes the same disgusted noise. It’s exciting to discover each other, at long last.

  94. Daisy Deadhead

    Speedbudget, I understand her point, but I think it IS up to whites to challenge other whites… and I don’t think POC are running Wall Street, last time I checked. I think Wall Street is a good example of white privilege run amok.

    I really would like it to mushroom so that its their own kids out there, talking trash about them. I know, fairy tales… did anybody ever see that almost-lesbian movie, “Times Square”? I was too young when I saw it, and it imprinted me, which is probably bad.

    But the Roxy Music song during the closing credits is awesome.

  95. Daisy Deadhead

    Off topic (sorta kinda)–you won’t be disappointed, if you can find it:



  96. Owly

    Kanye West showed up at Occupy Wall Street. Just sayin’.

  97. Ottawa Gardener

    Here’s the deal in my mind. You have people of fairly diverse backgrounds (within our local context at any rate)in various countries implying that they are united for something and that is more equality. Some of them are more aware of the systemic issues and other are reacting to specific real life examples of inequality. They might not say things like ‘capitalism isn’t working for the 99%’ but they are saying things like ‘big corporations are not in it for the 99%.’ And, as stated by a previous poster, some are actually saying this is about class.

    Is this the feminist revolution? Are the players feminist? No but that doesn’t make it unworthy. Is it a movement of the most desperate or the most informed? No and not necessarily respectively but that’s not a huge shocker either. Remember how this board often saying if such and such a problem was happening to guys then it would be solved lickedy split? Well, guess what, the previously relatively privledged are getting squeezed and they are reacting. As far as I am concerned, it’s a start. I hope it ends up somewhere positive.

  98. Ottawa Gardener

    Correction: I should say that some of the players are probably feminist.

  99. tinfoil hattie

    Occupy Wall Street is getting increasingly misogynist, and the white dudebros are up in arms, defending themselves against those mean old feminists who hate rape jokes and objectification of women. Also, “committees” are created to help women determine whether or not their sexual assaults are worth reporting to the police.

    La plus ca change.

  100. ElizaN

    If I can’t dance without getting raped, it’s not my revolution.

  101. Saurs

    Daisy, please don’t misunderstand my cynicism. If the “Occupy” movement is working for you and yours, I am genuinely pleased for you. It’s just not my cuppa, for the reasons stated. I don’t mean to seem that I’m attacking you or making light of the progress folk in your region have made or the discussions now being held as a result.

    (In answer to your question, I currently live in the inland valley of southern California, the place largely responsible for the passage of proposition 8 (heteronormative marriage) in this state. It is overwhelmingly Republican, it consistently votes that way on political and “social” issues and has since its inception; anti-abortion and tea-party style groups are vocal, demonstrative, and largely unchallenged, particularly in the city in which I live, which is a lower middle-class and working class boontown of very recent vintage, less than 30 years ago mostly grapevines and citrus groves. There’s a church of one or other sect (I guess?) on every corner, and nearly every other year a group of angry white folk get together near local election time to try to scapegoat immigrants for one or another bad thing. There’s a lot of obvious corruption in the local council, with scummy real estate and public works scandals, and for the past decade it’s made a considerable effort to weaken what environmental protections and air pollution ordinances we do have. Located in the smoggiest or second smoggiest county in this country for several years running, that means something. I haven’t noticed much of an effect the “Occupy” movements have had on local political discourse, such as it is, but I’ve visited the San Diego, Los Angeles, and Irvine spin-offs. The latter wasn’t so much a protest as a well-organized counter-protest by the local young Republican union, sporting expensive-looking laminated placards reiterating Fox News-style slogans re hippies, feminazis, commies, socialists, welfare queens et al. Not much of a surprise there.)

  102. Hattie

    Everyone is talking about it. Even the unlikeliest people. The dude was right.

  103. random_anomaly

    Move Your Money day has a large element of privilege to it, implying that everyone who wants to can move to a credit union. Almost all credit unions run a credit check, and turn you down if your credit is bad.
    If you are poor, you often end up with bad credit from being late on payments, or unable to pay them at all.
    For many of us, the Move Your Money/Bank Transfer Day idea consists of people in better situations asking us to transfer to a credit union, then saying things like “I have bad credit too! But I went in there with a few hundred dollars and they let me open an account!”. It probably doesn’t work the same way if you go there with 75 cents.

  104. Saurs

    Comment moderated at the mo’, but tell a lie: there is one noticeable affect of ye ol’ “Occupiers” on the local mindset. The libertarians are feeling reinvigorated, it seems, so we’re seeing a lot of “unlawful” all-caps signage on abandoned shacks and fallen telephone poles re the legalization of pot and the un-seculargod-liness of affirmative action, the oppression of the straight white man, and so forth. I guess that’s one of the key differences between midwestern and southern-style conservatives and their sort out our way: would-be cowboys conceal their white supremacy and misogyny under the cloak of anti-gubment RonPaulism, rather than fundamentalist Christianity. Although there is a lot of that about, too. Having been brought up outside the US, however, most Americans seem rather eerily right-wing at first glance, and the differences between a centre-right party of democrats and right-right party of republicans not really all that palpable.

    “The luxury of ignoring” a particular group of protesters doesn’t really make any sense to me (one can’t ignore it, it’s everywhere, and it’s hardly a luxury to acknowledge it or no), or it’s an attempted insult that’s landed considerably wide of the mark. I work almost 80 hours a week on a feckin’ clean-up crew off the books, meaning less than minimum wage, no benefits, and it took me months to save up enough cash to afford the safety glasses, chaps, and boots OSHA suggests the boss ought to be buying for me. And I’m still doing better than not only the vast majority of the so-called third world’s poor, but certainly the vast majority of people living in this country right now. I’d rather spend the few precious hours I get to myself doing the kind of intellectual grunt work I find valuable rather than being a gap-mawed spectator for yet another sparkly revue of Angry Middle-Class White People and Their Precious, Precious Wounds.

    And now I’ve absolutely reached the comment max for this post.

  105. tinfoil hattie

    @random_anomaly, if you have ever been in the military, active or reserve, or if you work for DoD or for a contractor who works for DoD, you can join Navy Federal Credit Union. Also, NFCU members’ “grandparents, parents, spouses, siblings, grandchildren, children (including adopted and stepchildren) and household members (who live at the same address and contribute to household income).”

    Used to be you could open an account for $5, but I don’t know if that’s the case. http://www.navyfederal dot org

    Sorry if this “ad” violates commenting policy. I know people are hurting, and maybe this will help someone.

  106. Jezebella

    Credit unions do not all run credit checks, by any means. And many have opened their membership to residents of their county, for example. Anyone who has ever attended or worked for a nearby university is eligible for their credit union. And so on. Just taking your banking – never mind if you have savings – to a credit union is not only taking a little money out of the S&L business, but it is also putting money into a system that supports local businesses and homeowners. Obviously if this wasn’t a problem for the big Banks, they wouldn’t have security guards and cops preventing people from coming in and closing their accounts, as has happened at several big banks in the last few weeks.

  107. Jezebella

    Credit unions, by the way, are non-profit.

  108. Darragh Murphy

    thanks tinfoil hattie. I will look that up!

  109. tinfoil hattie

    Credit unions are member-owned. This means I, little old tinfoil hattie, money-goes-out-as-fast-as-it-comes-in-%, get to VOTE on many NFCU issues and persons every year!

  110. speedbudget

    Pentagon Federal Credit Union is similar to the one tinfoil hattie was talking about, so that’s another option.

    It doesn’t necessarily have to be a credit union either. Any smaller, semi-local bank will work, just so long as any money you have in Chase, BofA, Wells Fargo, et cetera is no longer in those particular institutions.

  111. buttercup

    Antoinette N, I’m curious where you live that overpays a civil servant, because I’m moving there. I’m underpaid and overworked here in PA.

  112. Jezebella

    Me, too, buttercup. I’ve never seen hide nor hair of the elusive Overpaid Cushy Civil Service jobs that the urban legends are always on about.

  113. Linda

    Has anyone seen any signs that the movement is critical of the pronstitution industry? I’m also worried about the implications that male anarchism and male
    freedom from government and state controls would certainly have for the traditionally raped classes, women and children. The sign in the background of the pic below tells me enough: “We are not machines, we are not cattle, we are MEN”


  114. Kea

    Exactly, Linda. This could be very, very bad for us.

    It’s not like all countries in, say, Central Asia have had advancing women’s rights throughout the last few decades, is it? Backwards is backwards, and backwards can happen in the West. For instance, female participation in Computer Science has fallen dramatically over the last 20 years, probably with the rise of geek gaming rape culture.

    We must make our own revolution.

  115. veganrampage

    Yeah, its not perfect, its the patriarchy. However watching Democracy Now! coverage can keep you informed, and not showing up the for the biggest “revolution” on the “left” in our time because it isn’t a feminist paradise isn’t going to get us anywhere.
    Does this means my clever “occupy veggies” comment some weeks ago went unrecognized? O the womananity!

  116. Insurgence

    I’m also worried about the implications that male anarchism and male
    freedom from government and state controls would certainly have for the traditionally raped classes, women and children.

    Maybe I’m dense, but I’m not sure at all what implications you’re referring to. Please elaborate?

  117. Linda

    Hey, I’m informed already thanks, veganrampage. I’m just not sure that showing up for a movement that doesn’t include us is going to get us very far either. The rape culture within the movement is already pretty obvious; I see no signs of women being factored into their economic concerns, the pron industry, unpaid/low paid labour, child-raising, violence, punitive social security policies etc. We are right to be cautious about organising with dudes, as history has shown us. We are right to be critical and point out the obvious gaps.

    Insurgence, for real??

  118. Claire K.

    @Yttik, about the occupy condoms: “We won’t be screwed! We will come first!” Really? That’s awful. I mean, I get what they’re going for, but I read it as “We won’t be screwed!” (we’re men and we’re not gay, we do the penetrating), “We will come first!” (before the woman, because her orgasms don’t matter).

  119. Occasional lurker

    I’ve taken a gander at three of the Occupy encampments in my oh-so-liberal Left Coast greater urban area. So far, I’ve noticed two things: 1) men appear to outnumber women by about 10 to 1, and 2) whites appear to outnumber everyone else by about 5 to 1, even in areas where whites are not a majority.

    99% my ass.

  120. allhellsloose

    Too right I’m a member of a credit union. It’s the only way to budget. And have only, and I mean only ONE credit card. That way you keep up the credit rating.

    Love Linda’s comments.

  121. allhellsloose

    Sorry to double post. There’s no way in hells chance that this Occupy is democratic. I’m in the UK and the protest has closed St Paul’s Cathedral. The first time since the war. Now I’m not getting sentimental about anything, but the protesters were given the space to protest. Now they have made their point. It’s time to move on. But NO! White dudes decide to stay. Because of a so called ‘democratic process’. WTF? Is. That. About. ?

  122. veganrampage


    The “NC” is Noam Chomsky, is who intelligent enough to agree with this blamer on more than many things.

    Too bad There wasn’t a handy quote by a woman, but there
    wasn’t. IBTP.

    “NC: One failing of the social movements that I’ve noticed over many years is that while they are focusing on extremely crucial and important social issues like women’s rights, environmental protections, and so on, they have tended to ignore or downplay the economic and social crises faced by working people. It’s not that they are completely ignored, but they are downplayed. And that has to be overcome, and there are ways to do it. So, to take a concrete example right near where I live, right now there is a town near Boston where a multinational corporation is closing down a local plant because it’s not profitable enough from the point of view of the multinational. Members of the workforce have offered to purchase the plant and the equipment, and the multinational doesn’t want to do that; it would rather lose money than offer the opportunity for a worker self-managed plant that might well become successful. And the multinational has the power to do what it wants, of course. But sufficient popular support — community support, activist support, and so on — could swing the balance. Things like that are happening all over the country. ”

    The asswipe white and male majority has to be involved somehow. Unavoidable. But “hot chicks of OWS” sucks so let’s just quit before we started? There will be rape whether we show our forces or not. Isn’t doing something better than doing nothing? There might even be less, as many are calling for an end to the system as we know it.

    We have learned so much from the founding feminists, we know that The Man will try to use us and then discard us.
    We can USE THEM for our means now. We have never been more educated or more able to communicate. It took Anthony and Cady-Stanton 50 plus fucking years warring for the vote and they both croaked well before 1920. Never mind the first, second, third, however many waves and millions of women all over the world working and dying for women’s rights. Even now, women in Africa and the Middle East have been performing incredibly brave acts and have gotten some results.

    The simple suggestion that this huge momentum can help bring OUR revolution closer to fruition seems to being met with a whole lotta quit.

    My comment/s are not directed at any one person, and should not be taken personally. When a comment is aimed at a particular individual that will be abundantly clear.

    (The rest of interview is on his site, under “Overcoming
    Overwhelming Deepest Despair and the Urge to Garrote Every Woman-Hating Dickhead Republican and Man in Sight and Then Climb a High Tower and Start Shooting Randomly” or something akin to that title.

  123. Wendy

    There’s a worthwhile article by Lisa Wade at SocImages on whether OWS is having any effect. I found it worth reading, anyhow.

  124. veganrampage

    Radfem Hub, which I see has a pingback mocked up a flyer, and suggests going to the local Occupy and kicking dude bro ass.

    That’s all I was trying to say.

    Couldn’t loathe ’em more.

    Frickin’ Lousy Canuck keeps emailing insisting he’s a feminist, after I asked him to PLEASE take that tatty “HOTT CHICKS” down.

    “I like the hot chicks video. It is respectful and those speaking are eloquent. I grant some are bothered by the title, but I think it (the title) may do more good than not.”


    Thanks CPP!(CCP or Risotto has a link to this guys blog stating there were cool pics.)

  125. Another Wendy

    This is a friendly encouragement.

    When the predominantly-male downward-sloping middle-class decided to begin a revolt, they did not make it radically feminist. Quelle surprise, right?

    However. Though this may not be the revolution you want, this may be the revolution you get. All ye blamers, whose intertubes blaming is not just valuable but thought-provoking and enjoyable lo these many years, have you been to your local OWS chapter? If not, go. It is an extremely open forum. With your own wise input, it may just develop a radical feminist wing.

    Be the change you wish to see, and all that.

  126. Anne

    @veganrampage – don’t you love men who presume to tell women what is and isn’t sexist? And by “love” I mean “long to hoof in the junk.”

  127. Insurgence

    Insurgence, for real??

    Yes, for real. I’m trying to not jump to conclusions about what you perceive these implications to be.

    Otherwise, it looks as if you worry that women and children will be worse off having options besides going to cops who will disbelieve, ridicule, intimidate, or even actually be the rapists themselves.

    Worrying about freedom from government (not sure why there is a male qualifier in your original comment either) implies that the system is working when we all know, especially in the case of raped persons, that it damn sure isn’t.

  128. Jezebella

    I don’t think women and children will have any options regarding justice in a patriarchal anarchy.

  129. Saurs

    Seriously. Have we already forgotten how Baltimore’s would-be subversives have decided to “handle” pesky rape victims? Flyers warning against “false accusations” and the demand that victims submit their little tales of woe to the headmasters to see whether or not they float, I mean… whether or not holding dudes responsible for sexual assault is going to inadvertently sabotage the movement, or whatevs.

    Now that I think about it, that’s the exact method my parents’ very own collective adopted whenever a woman, child, or other inferior had a complaint: that’s nice dear, but we’ve got to think of the greater picture. Low-hanging fruit and all that jazz. Now don’t go outside for the next week ‘cos some of the boys are awful angry with you, and there might be repercussions for your unfortunately false memory. Toodle-pip.

  130. Linda

    Yeah Insurgence, this is a radical blog and none of need any 101ing about sexual violence. I’m not suggesting, as you seem to think, that the current system is fine and dandy and an anarchist dude nation would ruin all the amazing access to social justice that we currently have. I’m thinking that an anarchist patriarchy would allow dudes to rape with even MORE impunity than they now have.

  131. Insurgence

    Linda, I’m sorry if you felt I was patronizing. That was not my intention. All I meant to illustrate is that the current system is obviously not working. I wouldn’t argue against the fact that most voluntaryists are actually manarchists, who don’t see women as human or women’s liberation as a legitimate cause.

    Even in spite of this however, why should we resign ourselves to a government who has already demonstrated it will not hesitate to use women as pawns? We can speculate that women will enjoy more or less freedom and safety in anarchy than we do now, and we can speculate whether or not this anarchy will be patriarchal.

    Seeing the government for what it is requires no speculation however. We can see, manifested in a thousand different ways, that it hates females.

  132. veganrampage

    Anne, “long to hoof in the junk” had me guffawing like a fevered donkey. Thanks. Needed that.

  133. pheeno

    h ttp://sfbayview.com/2011/on-state-violence-white-male-privilege-and-%E2%80%98occupy%E2%80%99/

    ““I ain’t about to go get arrested with some muhfuhkuhs who just figured out yesterday that this shit ain’t right.” – quoted by Greg Tate in The Village Voice

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