Jan 24 2012

Please enjoy this open thread while I do something more interesting than write a blog post

When this remark

Yup. This is the only place I don’t comment under a male pseudonym.

showed up in the comments this morning I got to wondering. The Internet is even more openly hostile to Vagina-Americans than real life is. Do you ever use a dudely nom de blog when you flit about the matrix? What has been the outcome? Have you ever successfully argued a point (feminist or not) while, if not exactly posing as a dude, then at least keeping your non-dudeliness to yourself?

If this topic bores you, feel free to jaw about anything you want in the comments.

Update: The comments are turning into a Hugo Schwyzer beatdown, with my blessing. Fuck that fucking fuck.


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  1. K

    I use a male-sounding name on Disqus, which I use on Shakesville, Fannie’s Room, and my small-town newspaper site. The first two are quite safe, and the newspaper just doesn’t get much traffic.

  2. buttercup

    I think I’m pretty much Buttercup or Buttercupia everywhere, but I don’t comment much elsewhere.

    On the open thread front, I would love to hear your views on Hugo Schwyzer. I’d never even heard of the knob six months ago and now I can’t get away from him.

  3. K

    Hmm, not much going on. Can I share my neww favorite Tumblr site? http://yoisthisracist.com/ perhaps blamers will enjoy it.

  4. Saurs

    Unless your interweb pseudonym is literally something like SparklyPinkKittensSexayLadyBitsGurlFaerie69BrownEyedSoccerPixiesIHaveBoobs, dudes assume you’re a dude, so sometimes a normal conversation and/or argument can proceed on fairly calm terms*. Once they realize they’re speaking to a mere female person, however (and despite essentialist-style assumptions that men and womenfolk speak differently, this realization is only, erm, realized when one or another anonymous person explains patiently that no, dude, as a woman, I think I’m qualified to discuss in first-hand terms what an abortion/menstruation/PIV-fucking feels like, so kindly shut it and stop theorizing blindly), the mansplaining commences, and you can easily be dismissed as an hysterical non-entity, amusing to play with but of no real consequence. In especially long, dude-controlled blawgs and forums of no immediate feminist bent, it’s interesting to watch the dude-on-dude homosocial policing in action: the second you hip your interlocutor to your tainted genitalia, other dudes will pipe in unhelpfully, either to proffer further condescending drivel or to shame the first dude for having wasted his precious word-breath on somebody beneath him. And then somebody talks about sandwiches, and you’ve been cleanly exorcised from the site from then on out, perhaps to be reserved as resident Pet Girl only for as long as you can amuse but stay safely out of the line of fire during important dude discussions, like how much you want to fuck/be Jeremy Clarkson, he is such a god among men.

    Playing a dude on the interweb is no great shakes, because one can simply be onesself. Men are humans, humans have multitudes; it is women who are aberrant and easy to spot, or so the story goes. Which is why cismen who’ve posed as ciswomen on-line are so unconvincing, at least from a good objective distance, cf all the lesbian blawggers last year who turned out, surprise to mostly no one, to be dudes, of all things. Like, no duh. Clearly, highly elaborate lies, webs of lies, handfuls of tissues of lies, teased out for weeks or months or years on end, through e-mail and physical letters and an occasional phone call, were said dudes’ preferred method of pulling, at least long-distance fashion, ‘cos, yep: said blawggers had “girlfriends.” Actual women who were actually duped by these fuckers. Not because of any stupidity on their own part, but because it’s sometimes hard to fathom the lengths men are willing to travel on their quest to fuck women over any way they can, to achieve a victory. It’s a sad, pitiful little victory, but it must have been humiliating for the people involved, and I imagine said dudes got a few decently furious wankfests out of picturing such reactions, the sadistic shits.

    *I am reminded of MichaelHawkins over at Zuska’s place, who kept calling Zuska “him” and “her”, and then when hipped to the horrible truth–that he was addressing a WOMAN, of all things–experiencing such kerfuffle he would only call her “Franks” thereafter. Which I imagine he thought was insulting, ‘cos, hahahaha, using people’s surnames is something only men having a bromance do.

  5. Twisty

    A propos, from yoisthisracist.com:

    Q:whitachi asked: Yo, I just read about some white dude getting offended by Portlandia, calling it a “white subcultural equivalent of a minstrel show”. Can you believe that shit?

    A: Yo, if that guy feels that way about Portlandia, he is going to BUG OUT when he discovers Fox News.

  6. Hari

    Oh GAAWWWDDD,FFS NO buttercup! Not…not…HIM! Yeah, “now I can’t get away from him”. Except so far, for this place, a blessed haven free of the present blogosphere madness. Why on earth any man gets so much airtime on feminist spaces is quite beyond me (and I also never heard of him til lately)…but why that one is given so much airtime even now…even in process of trashing him…completely fucking horrific waste of precious female energy.

    IMHO, of course. Please, let’s not go there.

  7. Anne

    I use gender-neutral handles and am always presumed male until I say otherwise. And I don’t always consider the gender-neutrality of my internet aliases until somebody refers to me as “dude” or “man.”
    I was recently thinking though, remember Yoko Ono’s Bag Piece project? The idea being if people went around in bags and couldn’t see each other they have to judge people on their inner qualities and “there’d be no racial war?” She and John showed that to Dick Cavett and the first thing he needed to know was which bagged person was female.

  8. Saurs

    Oh! But my long-winded point never actually made was that it’s usually pretty obv. when cisdudes are playing ciswomen, because the conversation is so stilted and full of bigotry-informed tells, like when they randomly flirt with people for no reason. ‘Cos that’s what ladies do: flirt with you, verbally toss their hair. Or begin an argument with “Well, I am a woman and I never–” It’s only ever men who represent their entirely subjective, small-minded, self-centered viewpoints as representative of a whole demographic, usually by suggesting that said viewpoint is new, refreshing, or something never before considered, and that we ought to turn round and take notice at this wonderful fella who is so kindly taking time out of his busy schedule of running and ruining the world to tell us blinkered little ladies about what the “other half” thinks. They also employ phrases like “the other half” or “the sexes” as though such phrases have some legitimate value beyond describing the plots of cornball Gene Kelly films.

  9. Twisty

    Hugo Schwyzer, the Feminist Man! I read that dude’s blog a few times, years back when I was just starting out and IBTP was becoming more popular and I thought it was my duty to keep up with the liberal blogosphere.

    I no longer feel that duty, because it turns out the liberal blogosphere is nothing but a hostile, porny, aggressive joke.

    I never trust a feminist man. But women have bigger problems than Hugo.

  10. Anne

    @buttercup re Schwyzer – I have mixed and largely uninformed feelings about him. I think I’m in favor of men talking out their attitudes about women and sex and gender roles and what they need to work on in that regard. That guy can be a paternalistic wanker at times though, and I personally don’t really care to learn more about what men think about sex and women because that shit is everywhere. They don’t ever seem to consider how being defaulted in every medium might be fucking up their perspective.

  11. Saurs

    But women have bigger problems than Hugo.

    Except for the ones he rapes or kills or tries to kill.

    I saw him on the PCC campus one time, recognized him from all his glamour shots. He had a bounce-y walk. End of anecdote.

  12. Rachel

    Agreed that men assume everyone else on the internet is also male, assuming a neutral pseudonym. I started posting under overtly male names/profiles identified as male as an experiment a while back to see if my opinions were treated with more gravity. Results were inconclusive, but god it was fun to enrage dudes whining about how women just don’t understand what it’s like to be a man with the response that no, you are also a man, just a better one than him, and they understand quite well indeed. If men won’t shame other men for their misogyny I suppose we have to do it for them, just like everything else worth doing.*

    *she added bitterly

  13. Tagmata

    I always use a pseudonym (this or one other) that does not specifically mark me as female and am always interpreted as male unless I state otherwise. If only the same were true for grocery stores, coffee shops, airports, bars, bookstores, and sidewalks. As a side note – do Costco stores attract particularly aggressive members of the leering public in general, or is that just by me?

  14. Melinda

    I’ve been using my real name online since the early ’80s and don’t really have plans to change that. I was very active on Usenet back when it was something to be active on and it could get unpleasant. However, changing my .sig to “If you send harassing email I will probably repost it” pretty much put an end to it.

  15. AlienNumber

    This scholar from MIT/NYU studies the Internet (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/fashion/danah-boyd-cracking-teenagers-online-codes.html?ref=socialnetworking) and among other things she has discovered that men harrass women on the Internet just like they do in real life. I mean, they wouldn’t be men if they didn’t do that, right?

    “Dr. [Danah] Boyd has shown, often to the dismay of those in the tech community who believe that the Internet is the ultimate equalizer, that issues of race, class and gender persist in the virtual world just as in the real world.”


  16. AlienNumber

    *harass (why do I always spell that word with an extra R, only lard knows)

  17. Hari

    On the original topic–I’ve never posed as a man or neutral, but there are times I’ve wished I did, b/c of what can happen to womyn by way of dismissal and all the rest. Such as once, being invited into ‘private convo’ w/a guy who, it turned out, was looking for a GF–and was a total dickhead once we did start having a private convo–overtly trying to control the convo, then sending pics uninvited (both were big clues that he was looking to stake a claim on me–which he admitted when I asked) Ew! That was in my earliest, most naive internet days….luckily he was not a complete stalker nut, and disappeared when I firmly scorned him for being a presumptuous jerk.

    Anyway, on the other hand, by just being openly female, I’ve learned it’s best to stick with womyn-only spaces, where I’m going to be posting at all. Never use my real name, and no pics of myself, either way. Not that womyn would never attempt a come-on…only that so far, none have been idiotic and supremely privileged about it, as the guy above was.

  18. Bushfire

    I just avoid being anywhere where there are dudes. If there’s dudes around you know the level of discourse is going down. ( “Bushfire – does that mean you have an STI??” )

  19. Treefinger

    I used to like Hugo Schwyzer because he wrote a cool post about something once (I believe it was the object/subject construction of male/female sexuality). But then I found out he tried to kill his girlfriend (and wrote a self-congratulary post about how he sees that was wrong now), participated in paternal fraud, used to hit on his students and writes yucky posts about how awesome facials are more often than good ones.

    People always assume I am a man when I say something funny on the internet (that doesn’t have to do with feminist wit, because dudes are incapable of finding that funny). “DOHOHOHO,” they say, “good one bro!”

  20. tinfoil hattie

    I don’t post as a dude, mostly because I started posting on the internet in about 2004, and I foolishly thought it would be safe to express my real views, what with the internet being anonymous, and all. From pile-ons from other commenters, to misogynist slurs, to “I bet you’re fat hur-hur” statements, I soon learned how very wrong I was. Now I’m such a Renowned Internet Feminist that I’m pretty evenly disliked by men and women on blogs other than this one. Here, I’m pretty sure I would only be disliked by women!

    I don’t trust feminist men either. They always end up incensed when a real-live woman dares to challenge them on some non-feminist belief they hold dear. I had one so-called feminist male acquaintance become enraged when I dared to express my non-amusement at a misogynist video he thought was quite funny. He proceeded to disdainfully mansplain WHY it was funny, and to excoriate me for daring to question his feminism.

    I used to try and listen to this man, and consider his opinions, and be a good friend, and exchange ideas with him. Now I just don’t care, and he’s expunged from my life. I am exhausted from coddling men, making exceptions for men, being patient with me, tolerating men.

    The only men I like are the ones in my immediate family. We’re quite insular and protective of one another, and we like it that way.

  21. gingerest

    It never occurred to me to take a male handle. (I used to go by ginger, but I switched to gingerest because there were too many other gingers and appending numbers just confuses me, so I boldly superlativized myself.)
    I had the impression we’d had a long conversation about Hugo and his partner-attempted-murderin’ ways at some point in the comments here, but maybe it was somewhere else in the Femiwebs?

  22. Ginjoint

    I’m currently arguing in the comments section (why, WHYYY??) at the site of my hometown paper, and wishing I’d presented as male to begin with. The writer Sara Paretsky wrote an opinion piece on abortion, and well…I don’t need to say more. One thing I do enjoy, however, when I’ve made it clear that I’m female is being condescending FIRST. Wow, they hate that. Heh.

  23. humanbein

    No such thing as a feminist man. Anyone who identifies themselves as a man has so much to learn about gender that he has no right to brag bout being a feminist. Which is what they seem to want to do – brag about how feminist they are. Posting as a man anywhere still gets you the obligatory one-upmanship that men thrive on. No man is happy until he’s put you beneath him in some way, even if you are anther man.

  24. Kea

    I’m with Tinfoil Hattie. Never saw it coming back in 2004, and I am not anonymous on the internet. Of course, I could comment elsewhere under a pseudonym, but I don’t bother. My blog is now a detailed, long term record of how women in science are really treated. Conversations elsewhere often involve the greetings Gentlemen or Dudes, because of course women don’t actually know any real science, and this happens even when I am a major participant in the conversation.

  25. Ginjoint

    ::acting cool like my HTML works every time, it’s no big deal::

    Secretly, away from my monitor: BOOYAH!

  26. IBlameRonPaul

    Obviously my handle here is gender-neutral. I post on a variety of other spaces currently and have been posting online in some form or another since the mid-90s.

    Eventually, it comes out that I’m female, but I’ve never gotten too much flack for it. Scratch that – I have gotten flack from both male and female, conservative-leaning evo-psych nuts (possibly now Ron Paul voters), because the mere existence of a calm, rational, factual woman shatters their world-view and makes baby Jesus cry. Good, I say!

    On my one board, I quite enjoy angering the fist-banging, Paul-worshipping, tinfoil-hat wearing, “the Federal Reserve and Obamacare are out to get me” menfolk on the reg with my calm, cool, collected factual posting – a skill they collectively lack, as histrionics are all they know. They’re all in their early and mid 30s, and angry as shit that they can’t “get b*tches to [expletive removed] them” because they *gasp* earn an income and bathe daily – and feel this is all that should be required for them to swim in sweet, sweet sex. While their banter doesn’t give me hope for the end of misogyny, it does give me hope for the human race. The worst misogynists may just disappear from the gene pool after all.

  27. Bugwalk

    I don’t use a male-sounding name when sharing my views online, but when I have to call tech support, I often give my name as “Dr. [My last name].” It tickles me to hear the person say, “Well, doctor, I think the problem might be with your … “

  28. Twisty

    “maybe it was somewhere else in the Femiwebs?”

    Don’t ask me; I have no idea what goes on in this comments section!

    But I now grasp why I was asked for my opinion on Schwyzer; I had been unaware that he is at the epicenter of one of those “controversies” wherein some supposedly feminist dude turns out to be a violent abuser. I am not surprised in the least. Like I always say, dudes make crummy feminists, and I never trust’em. There’s always something a bit off, a bit prurient, a bit icky about’em.

    Here’s an informative link I got from Feminists Against Hugo Schwyzer that pretty much sums up why old Hugo is a purulent scumbag.

    (I see some blamers in the comments to one of the related posts; Big Twisty is Watching You!)

  29. Erica C. Barnett

    I always use my real, full, name… but as a semi-public figure in my town (I’m half of a local news site and do a lot of public speaking), I feel something of an obligation to do so; I definitely assume that, even on our relatively well-moderated blog, plenty of ladies are using “male” handles, knowing that if they don’t, they’ll be subject to the usual put-the-uppity-girl-in-her-place twaddle I get on a daily basis (it only gets deleted if it contains threats or profanity, or if I’m having an unusually irritating day).

  30. Darragh Murphy

    Thanks for the links Twisty. I think.

    uck ick ugh. what a skeavy skuzz ball.

  31. Darragh Murphy

    I use my real name too Erica, mostly because the aura of anonymity on the internet has always seemed false to me and I worried when I first started commenting online that I’d be lulled into believing the mask would be secure. On my blog I mostly used my last name only, but the first name soon followed. I do notice that people assume Murphy is a man even though it’s obviously a last name. But apparently my first name is a boys’ name in its country of origin. So there’s been enough gender ambiguity on the web for me to not really know how other commenters are reacting to my supposed gender.

    But it is absotively true that names that sound masculine get more respect from what I’ve seen online.

  32. Bushfire

    Now I’m such a Renowned Internet Feminist that I’m pretty evenly disliked by men and women on blogs other than this one.

    Well, tinfoil hattie, I think you’re awesome!

    I’m guessing the degree to which one is feminist is directly proportionate to the degree to which one is hated, on the internet or otherwise.

  33. JfC

    The thing with Hugo Schwyzer is, that he thinks to properly forgive and redeem him we must allow him to be an authority on women’s lives and allow him to speak for us. While I’m open to the possibility that people change, I don’t think charity demands we crown a former abuser King of Feminism. I’d really rather he find a new line of work.

    I run into this thing when people ask when we will forgive abusive celebrities (Chris Brown, Mike Tyson and the like) and stop bringing up their past actions. For them, forgiveness necessarily includes allowing them to occupy positions of considerable fame, monetary success and thus authority. It stretches my lobe to allow such abusers to lead a normal life among those they abused. Handing them back a significant amount of power, when they have demonstrated that they use power to harm others blows the lobe out completely.

  34. ivyleaves

    I have always had the opposite experience. Whenever I have used female names, or avatars (I do a lot of gaming), I will still get called dude, mate, sir, etc. Of course all bets are off if I am commenting on a political thread in some horrible place like a news site, but otherwise not. If I am posting any feminist stuff, though, you can be sure I will be mansplained into oblivion, asap. I usually don’t bother.

  35. ivyleaves

    And, yes, Tinfoil Hattie is brave and awesome out there on the interwebs.

  36. Shelby

    As part of my feminist edumacation I visit MRA sites as a bloke. I like to argue vehemently the benefits of them getting vasectomies so that they can regain control of their reproductive rights and not be tricked by some evil wimminz into becoming a daddy and having to pay that pesky child support for the next 18 years. I also argue in favour of those men who “go their own way” and have nothing to do with women or marriage. What I have gleaned from these escapades is that MRA’s are mainly lonely, mentally ill cowards who refuse to take responsibility, are very easily led and dumb as dogshit.

  37. Comrade PhysioProf

    A number of years back when I was guest-blogging at Feministe, some Australian d00d wrote a column for some online Australian newspaper in which I was held up as an example of another one of these goddamn bitchez who are so fucken uppity and foul-mouthed that they’ll never get husbands.

  38. tinfoil hattie

    Bushfire, you are correct, of course!

    The more feminist you are, the more hated you are.

    Except for here on IBTP and on a few other sites.

    Also holds true in my personal life. Actually, just the more I draw boundaries, stand firm in the truth, and say, “NO!” to entitled asshats, the more I am hated.

    Funny how that works! Acting like an individual with the right to take up space on the planet is the first in a long, long line of horrendous offenses women and girls can commit.

  39. Nepenthe

    I’m neutral on Wikipedia and invariably assumed to be male. Two exceptions: when editing in feminism related articles and when I’ve done something that other people disagree with. Then the female pronouns and disdain come out in full force.

  40. Bushfire

    Check it out, it’s Catherine MacKinnon giving a talk on prostitution!

  41. Carpenter

    I always use the same gender neutral web-name. However, I have finally stopped engaging in flame wars with assholes because I had a religious epiphany when I read xkcd’s “Someone on the internet is wrong!” comic.

  42. Hari

    tinfoil hattie, you wrote the story of my life–especially the last 10+yrs:

    “…the more I draw boundaries, stand firm in the truth, and say, “NO!” to entitled asshats, the more I am hated.

    Funny how that works! Acting like an individual with the right to take up space on the planet is the first in a long, long line of horrendous offenses women and girls can commit.”

    You sure got that right.

  43. Lovepug

    Hell to the yes I use a dudely pseudonym in many places. I even go so far as to have a dudely email address. I also made sure I selected a name that sounds extra manly. I get interesting responses, including one from someone who apparently was a woman who flirted with me because I stood up for her when she was getting dogpiled on by some dudes in a comments section (why, oh, why do we read the comments).

    So, I guess I’m a better man than most dudes.

    At any rate, it just seems safer sometimes.

  44. Anne

    TFH – “The more feminist you are, the more hated you are.”

    There’s nothing more “politically incorrect” than being feminist out loud.

  45. Carpenter

    Re:that link about Schwyzer and murder, Jesus Crap! I somehow missed this entire thing, and I just read that entire series of posts on student activism. I’m going to go wash my soul now.

  46. hayduke

    Carpenter, that comic was a revelation for me as well.

    I comment here, and on the dreaded book of face. Here, I don’t worry. On the site that shall not be named, everybody knows me already, so what ya gonna do? Other than batten down the old security hatches as best you can, and use as a profile pic something, well, gender neutral. Cuz otherwise, some ass-hat friend-of-a-friend will pull up your picture and comment on your appearance as a means to discount your statements.

    At this point, I generally refer to that beloved XKCD strip. Sometimes it even works.

  47. KittyWrangler

    I’ve got a gender-neutral name on Pandagon. Some dude wandered into, I think, the Elevatorgate thread, announced that he just wanted to learn and educate himself as a feminist man, then proceeded to troll the hell out of the thread using logic that was only 90% evil/stupid so that people were lured into debating him and trying to sway his opinion. I was one of those suckers. He singled me out and thanked me for my reasonableness and civility. I was confused for a minute, since I was no more reasonable or civil than anyone else at that moment. Then I realized: he thought I was a dude.

    That moment stands out because when several people are involved in a fracas with a troll-guy on the Internet he usually will not address me, even though I address him. Not sure why.

    @ComradePhysioProf HA! You know, you probably are preventing women from finding husbands like that Australian dude, by contributing to movement that doesn’t make them settle for sacks of sh*t like him. You home-wrecker.

  48. KittyWrangler

    Oh, and re: Schwyzer, I also recommend this post about him if you’re feeling ready to let your blood boil:


  49. shoals

    Hi Twisty! Apropos of nothing, and inspired by my ardent admiration of you (going back to ’06), I wrote a sonnet to amuse you. It honors men in general, but especially the type dearest to our hearts, the common fuckwit. I totally ripped the idea off of Shakespeare’s megaburn ‘Sonnet 130’– http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnet_130 .

    This dude’s eyes have nothing of a spark;
    A burrito has a loftier goal met;
    Unencumbered by substance is his mark;
    Unhampered by thought, his raison d’être.

    I’ve known those who pick a nit–
    In whom the brilliant light of sentience glows;
    But this guy will have none of it;
    Nearer a light a vacuum, as a toilet paper roll he grows.

    Sometimes I’ll scour the babble for laughs,
    But sincerity is to wit so contrary;
    With fellow geniuses his daily life he’ll staff,
    And to this umbral percipience he’ll marry.

    And yet, to this eponymous character as well,
    So many in his esteem have fell.

  50. Ginjoint

    Didn’t Schwyzer also organize a slut walk? (And that’s all I’m going to waste my time typing about that predator.)

  51. Cycles

    I pick usernames that don’t have much significance outside of my own head (cycles, proboscidea, churndashvariation, abroadnoodle, allomorph). Most of these usernames happen to be gender-neutral, because during those panicked moments when deciding upon a new username, the random things that come to mind typically don’t have gender associations in the first place. It’s oh so post-feminist inside my brain, yo!

  52. Hermionemone

    Hari, your handle is not as unambiguously femme-sounding as you may think. SF-fans will recall ‘Hari Sheldon’ from Asimov’s Foundation series, super-genius (male, of course), inventor of a method of predicting the detailed future of civilization, to be kept on track by the first and second Foundations. Geek guys will assume that’s where you got your handle.

    I’ve always chosen unambiguously female handles, though ‘Hermionemone’ has the slight nuance of gender ambiguity via ‘Hermaphrodite’, and what I hope is a touch of prickly defensive menace via ‘Anemone’, which is both a flower and a sea creature with stinging tentacles. I’m used to not being taken entirely seriously anywhere(!) and in womynspace try to contribute if I can, but not presume to lead, drive, dominate or hijack the discourse lest it be interpreted as inappropriately mannish.

    I always eventually disclose my trans origin, because that is the source of my experience. That knowledge definitely affects how people relate to me. Feminism is where gender and sexism hit the road; I can take the odd pothole and speedbump.

  53. Carpenter

    Hermionemone, I am enough of a dork that I thought your name was some great a Harry Potter inspired word play.

  54. Hermionemone

    Thank you, Carpenter. It’s magic, isn’t it, how one can overlay the nuances in a name? There are a few more in there as well, which I will neither disclose, confirm or deny!

  55. Frumious B.

    I generally use gender neutral pseudonyms, but not always. I have a male sounding pseudonym at one and only one site. I didn’t pick it intentionally to present as male, but I sure contemplated the benefits of doing so when I settled on it. Just today I someone on the internet was wrong at that site, and I deliberately made the choice NOT to out myself as female so I would not lose credibility. I cringed a little as I did so. It was a subject that I live every day, and it very important to me that readers consider my points. Male pseudonyms and boob jobs are both reasoned responses to fucked up situations.

  56. tinfoil hattie

    Why, yes, Ginjoint! Hugo did indeed organize a slutwalk! And he cunningly tweeted about it all day, making twinkly references to “herding sluts,” among other things.

    I dunno. I diverge with twisty on this one. I think Hugo is a major problem foe women – individually and collectively.

  57. tinfoil hattie

    *for* women, that is.

  58. piratequeen

    Hateful responses to boundary-setting is a real time-saver. Since I don’t have a lot of spoons, I’m grateful when the douchecanoes identify themselves promptly and clearly.


  59. IBlameRonPaul

    Well, well, look what we have here: http://tiny.cc/4p5o7. It’s an article about how abortion “irreparably damages women’s mental health.” This, in the supposed LEFT-leaning newspaper of that city, by the way. Quoth Jeanne Monahan, director of the Center for Human Dignity – if “human” means “men and zygotes,” which it always does, of course – at the Family Research Council:

    (bolded snark mine)

    “Abortion is not good for women’s mental health. With abortion statistics alarmingly high [or, at an all-time low, whatever – fundies hate facts]in the United States, we live in a culture with an increasing number of post-abortive women struggling from the profound emotional and psychological consequences of abortion. Many of these women gravely regret their abortions. [Which? Where are the statistics, besides the garbage non-science in your article?] Visit the Feminists for Life [A “feminist for life” is a misogynist. Lose the title, lady.] website (www.silentnomoreawareness.org/) to read a few of these stories.”

    “The results showed that women who have an abortion are at an 81 percent increased risk for mental health problems, including anxiety disorders, depression, drug abuse and suicidal behaviors. [Or, that women with those problems, like me, who has anxiety and ADHD, choose to abort because they don’t feel up to caring for kids, don’t want them, or both.] The study revealed the shocking statistic that close to 10 percent of all mental health problems in women can be directly attributed to abortion. [Or, that they were manipulated to advance an agenda.]

    “With the 39th anniversary of the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade, let us continue to move full speed ahead with positive legislation that benefits everyone — the developing baby and its mother. [Yes, “mother.” Let’s make sure to be very, very clear about how little agency women have.]

    You know what causes irreparable damage to mental health? Having kids you don’t want. I’m the product of someone who did just that, and I’m still in therapy for the damage it caused. Oh, and back when I thought I was straight and having P-in-V, I had a couple of miscarriages. Yes, I had mood swings and depression, but that was from the hormonal changes, which are incredibly rapid and unpredictable, as well as the pain and nausea, which was immense. But after the miscarriages were over? I have one word: R-E-L-I-E-F.

    Write to this human garbage. Let her know she’s not a feminist – that she, her article and her life’s work, are all festering pieces of shit. And let her know that despite what her title claims, she’s actually working to revoke the dignity of over half of the human adults in America. Yes, no wonder men don’t like Internet feminists. We, like, want to have right to our own bodies, and stuff!

  60. IBlameRonPaul

    Also, the liberal “we all weigh abortions very carefully and feel very, very bad and ashamed when we have to have them, and they are never easy” line has to go.

    More women must stand up and say, “You know what? I had an abortion. I had it because it was a private medical decision that was right for me, and was between me and my doctor. And I will never apologize for putting my life and my health before a zygote’s. If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one.” Like at this site: http://www.imnotsorry.net/.

    I’ve reached my comment limit for this thread. Peace out, blamers, ’till next time.

  61. Valerian

    “You know what causes irreparable damage to mental health? Having kids you don’t want. I’m the product of someone who did just that, and I’m still in therapy for the damage it caused.”

    Ditto. I may kick a dent into the next car I see with one of those sanctimonious stickers asking “Aren’t You Glad Your Mother Was Pro-Life?”

    Glad my mother and millions of women just like her, women completely unsuited to motherhood, are brainwashed into believing that their only possible value lies in the contents of their uteri. Glad that women still buy into the very backbone of the patriarchy and believe they deserve all the shit that goes with it. Glad that there are plenty of unwanted children to be women’s “punishments”, punished in their turn for being a child and no longer a precious fetus. Glad those children will most likely grow up in turn to be cannon fodder or mothers of more unwanted children.

    Those bumper stickers should read, “Aren’t You Glad Your Mother Hated Herself?”

  62. Helen

    Valerian, it always amazes me that people assume that a non-living entity which never had any linguistic input in the whole of its brief life is able to cogitate and express regret for not having been born. This impossibility is regularly held up to us as a TRUFAX which should make us discontinue our abortin’ ways, immediately.

    *Scratches head*

    Also, count me in with the ones who had an abortion or two and has not suffered crushing regret or sorrow in the slightest. In fact, I really like the two kids I have, and if I’d gone ahead with the others I wouldn’t probably have had them. How can those cruel forced-birthers turn my beautiful children into non-living entities who’ve never had any existence AT ALL! Shame!

  63. Hari

    Hermionemone: “Hari, your handle is not as unambiguously femme-sounding as you may think.”

    Oh right–totally forgot that–because Hari is a new handle I started using several weeks back. Once I went, years back, from using my real name to screen names instead, I used more obviously female names prior-ly. And had not been partaking of the femiwebs at all.

    Hari is short for Angharad, a she-ra of Robin McKinley’s imagination in a book called The Blue Sword. I’m a sucker for fantasy wherein womyn save the tribe through an inimitably female style of ass kicking power, courage and smarts– especially when they do it on horseback, and without a bridle! Not to forget that even tho Hari got the happily-ever-with the most Alpha Male, it was on terms of his acceptace of her as someone who was clearly his superior…oh, my favorite fantasy of all. Because IRL, I have never met a man as courageous as myself, or as so many other womyn I’ve known (IRL or not–womyn like Kate Millet, Mary Daly)

    As for the sex-ambiguity of the name, I wonder if I could ever pass for male or at least ‘hard to figure’? That could be fun. Course, the blogosphere being what it is, and the folks over at feministe so hugely hatin’ on me by now, it may be too late to capitalize webwise on gender-ambiguity or an outright pretense of manhood. Never mind! I can never sustain a role play very long, anyway.

    Your handle, by the way–I like the wordplay involved. As a reader of Harry Potter, I missed the hermaphrodite part because of seeing only the Hermione part. I like the nuances as well of adding anemone, tho unfortunately the people most likely to need to understand the menace that comes with the beauty, are the least likely to get the association!

  64. speedbudget

    Everyone assumes you are a male when you play World of Warcraft, even if you are playing a female character. I let strangers and random people continue with that assumption. It makes my objection to their rape jokes carry that much more weight.

  65. Comrade PhysioProf

    I’ve got a gender-neutral name on Pandagon. Some dude wandered into, I think, the Elevatorgate thread, announced that he just wanted to learn and educate himself as a feminist man, then proceeded to troll the hell out of the thread using logic that was only 90% evil/stupid so that people were lured into debating him and trying to sway his opinion. I was one of those suckers. He singled me out and thanked me for my reasonableness and civility. I was confused for a minute, since I was no more reasonable or civil than anyone else at that moment. Then I realized: he thought I was a dude.

    Pandagon and–to a somewhat lesser extent–Feministe comment threads almost always eventually devolve to contentless high-school debate-team champeen dick-waving sausage fests.

  66. buttercup

    IBRP, I don’t know that the comment limit applies to open threads.

    The main thing about Schwyzer that cheeses me off is he gets legitimacy, tenure, lecturing jobs, seats on various panels, etc simply because he is a dood. He has this looming, creepy web presence because he’s a dood. And he is seriously messed up. Everything he writes for Jezebel is gross. Then, starred commenters who post critical replies to his articles get unstarred or unstarred and moved to offtopic. (this is kind of a big deal on Jezebel because having your name starred makes you a featured commenter and your replies show up differently than the unwashed masses, one of which I am counted as.)

    He’s bad for women and bad for feminism. He’s gross and he has influence on young women and young men both. There’s a hilarious tumblr about him, though.

  67. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    Quoth Popeye, “Iyam what Iyam and that’s all that Iyam!” But IBTP and Fecebook are the only places I post anymore.

  68. yttik

    I’m also presumed to be the default human, male, on the internet. What is still pretty shocking is how quickly the response changes when people realize I’m not. Suddenly I have no credibility, I have devious intentions, and I need to be patronized and mansplained to. Also the moment people realize I’m female, my job is to stroke male egos. Generally many other women in the thread are so busy doing this, I couldn’t if I wanted to, but the sense of entitlement is still there. Hugo Schwyzer is a good example, of all the women writers and bloggers, past and present to chose from, Hugo gets held up as the so called expert on feminist issues. Who is he? Nobody, but he does have a penis.

  69. allhellsloose

    Well I did post on a science forum a while back with a neutral name. I was treated fine until I outed myself as female. Then the menz got all hysterical and defensive because I continued to push my feminist agenda. On this forum, only the females who ingratiate themselves to men (and a good time spent on this blog has sharpened my beady eye on this) get the respect (they so obviously deserve).

    Great links on this open thread. I’m a busy bee right now and will check it all out later.

  70. Rachel

    The main thing about Schwyzer that cheeses me off is he gets legitimacy, tenure, lecturing jobs, seats on various panels, etc simply because he is a dood.

    Definitely. And he’s milking that unfairness, which should be the root of what he purports to fight against, for all it’s worth. That quote of him speaking on behalf of feminists to Kyle Paine is breathtaking in its audacity. All about feminism, while involving no actual women at all. I would intuit the “feminism” he supports is one where he and other manly “good men” stand around debating feminism, women, and our lives for us while we sit by staring up at him adoringly, our hero.

    Which is why I like it here so much. It’s the only place on the internet where men aren’t automatically given favored status.

  71. naomi

    i’m token_woman on thedailywtf.com. I thought taking that name would cause interesting stuff to happen of one sort or another that might be fun – but actually I am largely ignored. This may suggest that my posts on there are a load of boring old crap that would be ignored anyway.

  72. Gayle

    This person on the Feminists against Hugo Schwyzer page has him down:

    Kristin Rawls
    ?”One of the things that I deleted from my original response to the Jizzabel piece was a line about how Schwyzer seems to be “mass-grooming his audience for having sex with him, specifically.”

    I always suspected self-described feminist men were really just talking-the-talk to get laid.

    Everything about Hugo’s known past defines him as a creepy predator. And the referenced Jezebel column, the one in which Hugo schools women on why they should let their boyfriends jizz on their face proves Kristin’s point. He’s attempting to groom us for all the “feminist” men out there, especially himself! This would be funny EXCEPT he’s actually in a position of power over young women. That makes me sick to think about.

  73. BoBo

    First off I quite love this blog. I ran across it while Googling feminism one day.

    I am quite active on a male dominated social network. I signed up as a woman. Even uploaded pictures, etc. I was at first treated like a Queen. Then, the wonder wore off for the men there.

    Since that wonder has worn off things have changed. I will comment and get ignored. Then a man says the same thing I did and gets told how profound they are. I have been doxed there, been called every name in the book from c**t to whore, been told to go back in the kitchen, had my children and husband brought into conversations that had nothing to do with the convo, etc.

    So about three months ago, I made a male account to see what would happen. It’s night and day difference. As a man, I am profound, considered an intellectual, etc. While my female account is called vapid.

    Funny how me lying about my gender, made my perceived IQ go up 20 points. ;)

  74. Twisty

    “That makes me sick to think about.”

    No shit. Ever since I began acquainting myself with the ever-more repellent particulars of the case, I have been feeling actually, in real life, queasy. Bleh. I am reminded why I elected to pretty much blow off the blogosphere. It’s just so flippin stressful.

    As a cure, I am prescribing myself a vat of home-made ranch dressing. I use Ina Garten’s recipe. I will dip something into it, then go shovel some comforting horse shit. Horse shit is better company than 98% of people.

  75. buttercup

    He had more than that article. One about his daughter, more than one about sex, every time I see his name there I know bad things are about to happen. One need only search the site for his name and massive dood-ly pontification is revealed. All our cute little lady worries are eased at the feet of his scholarly lectern, as it were. Effing knob.

  76. buttercup

    I wish I had some horse poop to shovel.

  77. speedbudget

    I need to shovel the dog poop. Who knew one 13-pound dog could produce so much shit?

  78. Sara

    Does anyone want to discuss this?
    I can’t grok where to start.

  79. JfC

    I actually had a dream last night where I was observing everyone’s favourite Spinster Aunt delivering great justice to an MRA.

  80. yttik

    “..I am largely ignored. This may suggest that my posts on there are a load of boring old crap that would be ignored anyway”

    Probably not, but this reminds me, if anyone would like a free PhD without the bother of school loans and homework, try posting as Mr.Dicksmoke or something. It’s amazing how smart and interesting people will suddenly think you are.

    * Blowing dicksmoke was one of Twisty’s old phrases.

  81. Cycles

    Since it’s open thread and we’re talking about homemade ranch dressing, I have discovered that you can pretty much mix together anything in your fridge that’s white and gloppy (mayonnaise, sour cream, yogurt, cream cheese, heavy cream) with various savory herbs (parsley, cilantro, garlic, onion, shallot, black pepper) and tweak the white-glop proportions to achieve a viscosity of your choosing, resulting in a ranch-like substance that is absolutely delicious every time.

    P.S. I have very low standards when it comes to determining whether the food I make is absolutely delicious. However, it is a true fact that this trash-can-punch-style dressing has a high ROI.

  82. Sara

    Oh, IBlameRonPaul basically beat me to the punch, apologies

  83. buttercup

    Cycles, ROI?

  84. Satchel

    I’m not Cycles, but I expect she means Return On Investment, as in a low effort:deliciousness ratio.

  85. Antoinette Niebieszczanski

    To cover the cost of my retirement, I am inventing dog food that causes the poop to melt when the snow does.

  86. ivyleaves

    Ex-WoW player here. I have been in raids in World of Warcraft when either the raid leader or guild leader was speaking over voice chat and members of the raid/guild immediately quit when they discovered it actually was a woman leading them.

    When I was a guild leader myself I monitored the guild chat for egregious violations on race, gender, sexual orientation, and violence and gathered a lot of support and loyalty from male and female players for it, but most would quietly move on.

    Nowadays I play free browser games with a group. We met in one game and when we get bored we move on to a new one together, picking up friends along the way. Our leader is a woman, but it is a group of mostly males. Sadly, there is a bit of the fun feminist in our leader, but she is learning how that backfires. We have players from all over the world, and I like to think of myself as doing a little bit to educate younger folks while having some fun. I am probably more mistaken in this than I like to think.

  87. GMM

    I had no idea Hugo Shwyzer was a feminist theologian. His “kerfuffle” (how he describes the attempted murder) should be forgiven and he should retain his title as Professor Feminist because: “Christians have never understood the darkness of the redeemed. And what goes for Christians goes damn straight for feminists.”

  88. TwissB

    Thanks to Ginjoint for the link to Sara Paretsky’s comments on abortion. Since I am not a reader of her books, I hear her as I would any other opinion presenter. While I agree with her characterization of anti-abortion activists as terrorists, two of her statements surprised me.

    For example, she says: “Justice William Brennan, writing for the U.S. Supreme Court, believed (as I believe) that women are full citizens and moral agents, able to make decisions without a father, a church or legislator telling us what to do.” Not quite true. Brennan’s inclusion of the doctor as a restraint on the woman’s decision denies her freedom of choice and constitutionally affirms the power of the state (men) to enforce a profoundly invasive control over her person. Brennan’s law is a legally sanctioned violation of her bodily integrity.(In contrast, men’s right to bodily integrity is constitutionally affirmed. (See the chapter on “20th Century Legalization” in Rosalind Petchesky’s “Abortion and Women’s Choice” for revealing background on men’s professional and political influence on the development of Roe v Wade and its legal formulation).

    Paretsky also says: “ In 2011, just before ruling against women in their discrimination suit against Wal-Mart, Justice Antonin Scalia announced that the Constitution does not guarantee women equal protection under U.S. law.” This is a paraphrase. Scalia said that there is nothing in the Constitution to prohibit sex discrimination. Feminists who have waited long years in vain for their legal spokeswomen to come clean on this fundamental issue should be grateful to Justice Scalia for finally stating outright what American women are up against when they attempt to get justice under sex discrimination laws.

    10/5/11 http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/301909-1 1:07-38 Scalia did us another favor in a Senate hearing on Oct. 5, 2011 with his supposedly liberal buddy Justice Breyer. Senator Diane Feinstein asked whether women were included in the 14th Amendment. Justice Breyer, in his most supercilious tones said, in effect, “A woman is a person – we can all agree on that” and then stopped. Justice Scalia, however, correctly said the issue is what constitutes “equal protection.” And couldn’t resist adding “But does equal protection mean unisex toilets?” !!! Feinstein stumbled arpind until Scalia specified that he meant that there is nothing to prohibit private discrimination, only public discrimination. Feinstein let him go without pursuing how an originalist interprets the historical fact of deliberate exclusion of women from the 14th Amendment. She almost apologized for asking.

    It’s a question whether Paretsky mentioned Scalia for any reason except to criticize patriarchy. Like most women these days, she doesn’t see abortion restrictions as sex discrimination against women for which there is no constitutional remedy or simply assumes that RvW is supposed to take care of all that – but it clearly doesn’t since the legal and public harassment is allowed to continue.

    I apologize for the length of this post, but not for taking this central issue seriously.


  89. Cyberwulf

    Well of course poor Hugo should be forgiven. He said he was sorry; what more do we castrating bitches want?

  90. TwissB

    Ginjoint – My comment on your useful reference to the Paretsky oped is in moderation.

  91. Twisty

    TwissB, I absolutely appreciate the heck out of you as a commenter. Thank you.

  92. Mildred

    So Hugo’s a knob, but what do we think about Robert Jensen?

  93. Anne

    Tim Wise can go suck a rock too.

  94. thebewilderness

    I live in one of those places where you put your name or the name of your house at the entry of the driveway else no one would ever find you except the post person. When I finally got internet service using the name of my house as my ID seemed an obvious choice. I have been a political junky ever since I was 17 and watched the US president assassinated on national television, so I mostly commented on political blogs where I was treated as a person with knowledge and experience.
    Until the Kos pie fight of 2005. While I am too old to have been part of the sanctimonious womens studies set, unfortunately, I certainly recognize when the “he man woman haters club” flag is being flown. So I went looking for reasonable people to talk to. Yanno, feminists.
    I’m glad I did.

    My first run in with Hugo was at Theriomorph’s when he was posing as an expert on Black History in order to mansplain to WOC that racist symbols aren’t racist when white people use them ironically. It only takes reading a couple of his blog entries to realize that his interest is in exploiting the commercial potential of feminism. And so he has.
    I hope that this latest exposure of his predatory behavior puts an end to the scam he has been running.

  95. Twisty

    “what do we think about Robert Jensen?”

    There are only 3 degrees of separation between me and Robert Jensen! A friend of mine dated his wife’s (beloved Austin folksinger Eliza Gilkyson) assistant.

    He’s an articulate straight white dude, which is why people listen to him despite his somewhat radical edge. If a woman had made that crack about 9-11 I daresay she would have been shitcanned from UT. He seems to get that feminism is the only viable route to whirled peas and appears to be harmless. I don’t get the full-on skeez-vibe from him, but you know what Agent Mulder said about no one and how much you should trust them. Jensen’s got a buttload of fangirls, but for my money the aforementioned TwissB has the awesome anti-porn chops.

  96. Carpenter

    It is sort of amazing to me how much Schwyzer is accepted among liberals when clearly reproduces in microcosm all of the worst features of the evangelical protestant right wing that keeps trying to take over the politics of the nation.

    I seriously have a problem with this metaphysics where Jesus saves you and you therefore never have to feel a drop of guilt, or waste two second of analysis on everything up until your re-baptism. And if you do have a relapse, you can just blame it on temptation and the total depravity of mankind and return to Grace without a second thought. In fact the on the way there you get to go through this almost pornographic theater of confession where everyone gets to vicariously get off on your story of sin. This is just a recipe for mass producing hypocrites.

  97. Mildred

    If a dude TRULY repented to his sins, and LIVED by it for 1 decade min, I think I personally would be willing to say, “Yeah, okay, he’s sorry and he’s really changed, fair deuce.”
    But Hugo has not done anything of the sort, I mean, I’m sorry, that facial thing immediately told me what he was made of, I’ve known what dudes are really like since the one time I woke up to a horrible ex boyfriend jizzing on my face and laughing maniacally. That’s what sex is to porn-sick dudes like Hugo, one big frat prank.

  98. Yellowmarigold

    I admit to being a Robert Jensen fangirl. If he is actually what he appears to be, then I’d take him over 98.9% of the liberal feminist blogosphere any day of the week. Would you rather read Clarisse Thorn or Robert Jensen? There’s no contest.

  99. tinfoil hattie

    But Robert Jensen is seen as a sane and sober voice, whereas any woman saying the exact same things (or better things) against porn is an anti-sex shrieking harpy.


  100. susanw

    The only male on the planet with whom I’d consider having a serious conversation is Lundy Bancroft.

  101. Anne

    Speaking kind of of Jezebel, they’ve recently started a regular feature they call “Guysourcing,” in which dudes contribute their perspectives and experiences about sex-related issues, as if there’s some shortage of this information in the world.

  102. rootlesscosmo

    Not quite true. Brennan’s inclusion of the doctor as a restraint on the woman’s decision denies her freedom of choice and constitutionally affirms the power of the state (men) to enforce a profoundly invasive control over her person.

    When Roe v. Wade was decided my friend RadFem Family Lawyer (Oakland CA) was in law school. Her comment at the time: “The Supreme Court gave the first trimester to the women’s movement, the second trimester to the AMA, and the third trimester to the Catholic Church.”

  103. iiii

    My standard screen name is a rebus. Dunno what gender people assume from it.

    For the last decade or so I’ve been posting in fora that are mostly populated by self-identified female posters (TWoP and such), so my rule has been to refer to my fellow posters with feminine pronouns. Playing the odds, you know? Every so often some dude gets up on his Dude Horse and explains that He Is Male, so stop calling him ‘she.’ Hilarity ensues.

    As for HS, the guy and his groupies keep expecting absolution in exchange for confession alone. Sorry, some of us think penance has to come into it. And when the only penance imposed for trying to kill another human being is folks like us looking at him sideways? He should count his damn blessings and stop whining.

  104. Laurie

    My friend abortion rights activist Pat Maginnis, who worked for years to bring the U.S. to Roe v. Wade, always demanded that abortion carry NO restrictions at all, like any other medical procedure. The abortion rights movement split when one faction decided that was too tough a goal to try for and efforts refocused on getting the weaker half-measure that ended up as Roe — but Pat was right. She’s 83 now and is more worried than ever, with the GOP assault on women.

    I’d like to invite all Blamers to visit the blog I just started for her — http://patmaginnis.wordpress.com . I’ll be posting a lot more material from her Society for Humane Abortion (c. 1959-63), ARAL (her group that was the precursor to NARAL) and the Army of Three (the radical action wing) along with other memorabilia, photos and flyers from her archives, but this is a start.

    She’s the most hard-core activist I’ve ever met, and the most fun, too. I feel honored to know her. Thanks in advance for visiting — and if you feel like leaving a comment, esp. on the political cartoons, it would mean so much to her. Thanks, all.

  105. Laurie

    Gee, I guess the avatar I made for the blog last night is clinging to me— that’s Pat —>

  106. ivyleaves

    “The Supreme Court gave the first trimester to the women’s movement, the second trimester to the AMA, and the third trimester to the Catholic Church.”

    That’s a brilliant quote. And since we have seen attempts to wrest every trimester and also “pre-pregnancy” time periods from all women, Pat Maginnis was right then, and is right now.

  107. hayduke

    Every link I’ve followed attempting to find the original and infamous Schwyzer “I tried to kill my girl-friend; please tell me how awesome I am” post leads back to his website. And of course it’s been taken down. And the page admits, “This is somewhat embarrassing, isn’t it?” Complete with photo of the jack-ass himself wearing a truly self-congratulatory shit-eating grin.

    It’s kinda perfect.

  108. Twisty

    “The Supreme Court gave the first trimester to the women’s movement, the second trimester to the AMA, and the third trimester to the Catholic Church.”

    Ha! It’s funny cause it’s horrible.

  109. TwissB

    Twisty – You made my day and more.

    rootless – Source of that Roe v Wade sum up?

    Bushfire – I did check out the Catharine MacKinnon link. It was a comprehensive feminist Prostitution 101 gem in one brilliant hour.

    Re Robert Jensen – Odd cranky bird but to be commended for supportive work with Gail Dines, including their Pornography: The Production and Consumption of Inequality.

    I am astonished to learn that he is married to Eliza Gilkyson. I enjoyed her music and took good photos of her at the Kerrville Festival ages ago. I wish she’d take to the stage one time with equally fine and lanky Marcia Ball for a mixed genre performance.

  110. Owly

    So, I just got my first rape threat on the internet!

  111. Owly

    On the IBTP facebook page, of course.

  112. rootlesscosmo


    rootless – Source of that Roe v Wade sum up?


  113. Nimravid

    My screen names are normally gender-neutral, but I have occasionally used a male name. I actually did a little social experiment while buying a car, since I’d just read an article on sexism and racism having a big impact on the first offer of car price. So when I sent a bunch of online sales departments a request for a price for an exact model and color of car and got a disappointing set of offers, I started using a white dude’s name on my email requests. Anecdata: the range of offers between white-dude-name and my own did not overlap. The smallest penalty for being myself was more than $1500 and the largest was almost $5000.

    A gender neutral screen name gave me a long stint as a presumed dude on a web-based real time strategy game. I became a top player as a soloist, was recruited to the top team, became a top player on the top team, and revealed I was a woman. My teammates informed me this was impossible since only dudes played war games and then stopped speaking with me in team chat after I chewed them out for their sexism- except for one who tried to flirt over private messages. I quit playing. I haven’t ever, and probably won’t, use an obviously female screen name even on feminist blogs.

  114. speedbudget

    The abortion rights movement split when one faction decided that was too tough a goal to try for and efforts refocused on getting the weaker half-measure that ended up as Roe

    When are we ever going to learn to just go for the fucking gold instead of whittling our own goals down before we start? This reminds me of the whole health care “reform” bullshit. If you are willing to compromise before you even enter the room, the other side isn’t going to take you seriously as an adversary, and lo, here we are.

  115. Twisty

    “On the IBTP facebook page, of course.”

    Holy shit! I forgot about that thing! Do I need to take it down?

  116. Lurker Lyn

    Re: Owly’s comment

    I clicked the box to report Joe Ker’s comments as hate speech. I don’t know who runs the IBTP FB page, but if it’s you and you see this message is there any way to block him from posting there?

  117. Hari

    speedbudget– “If you are willing to compromise before you even enter the room, the other side isn’t going to take you seriously as an adversary, and lo, here we are.”

    EXACTLY. I’ve watched homebirth midwives do this very thing in pretty much every state where they sought licensure, and most recently in my home state. For part of the time our licensing bill was in the legislative works, I participated in formative process around it. Then came the day I foresaw defeat in the compromises assumed necessary. I said pretty much your words quoted as I exited, adding that our bill would be too gutted by the time it reached final vote to be useful to midwives or families, even if it did pass. So it was–gutted. So it was–voted down anyway, in spite of all that nice-nice compromise the midwives/families agreed to make.

    Naturally, I was considered crazy for my attitude. Thanks for summing this up so clearly, and restoring my sanity.

    As for pregnancy trimesters and who got control over them…oh my, ain’t that the truth!

  118. Flamethorn

    “There are no girls on the internet” is a running joke in my WoW guild, especially when there’s 3-4 of us ladies running a dungeon in skype or vent.

  119. TwissB

    January 26, 2012 at 7:08 am

    The abortion rights movement split when one faction decided that was too tough a goal to try for and efforts refocused on getting the weaker half-measure that ended up as Roe

    When are we ever going to learn to just go for the … gold instead of whittling our own goals down before we start? This reminds me of the whole health care “reform” bullshit. If you are willing to compromise before you even enter the room, the other side isn’t going to take you seriously as an adversary, and lo, here we are

    @speedbudget – You have just explained in one sentence why the US women’s movement has been stalled for forty years. It was sabotaged not only by backlash forces like hostile media, pomo perversion of Women’s Studies and law schools but especially by infiltration and takeover by smart political wannabees offering illusory “victories for women” achieved by compromising essential principles and silencing those who dissent. When winning is the only thing, you lose.

  120. Sarah

    Generally, I use a girly-sounding name (either mine here or another one that is equally girly) pretty much everywhere. What amuses me is a lot of other commenters won’t look at the name, and automatically assume I’m male for whatever reason – either a) they think everyone on the internet is male, or b) I’ve made a good point and derrrr ladies can’t do that, or c) they’re idiots. I was once told I should “get ball cancer” as I was a sympathizing feminist-lover. Ha! Joke’s on you, jerk commenter, I don’t have balls!

  121. TwissB

    @speedbudget & hari – Your insights and experience should be essential to political science curricula. Instead it’s all about trivia like maximizing fancy polling techniques. Real reforms come from changing the way people see the situation, not from pleading for change from those in charge of maintaining a status quo that is paying off for them.

    @rootlesscosmo – Thanks for letting due credit be given to Margaret Gannon for her succinct statement on Roe v Wade.

  122. Owly

    I like the facebook page! It’s helped me meet blamers here in Austin. What I don’t like is the fact that I posted an address for the first group meeting. I took it down, but you never know. I’ll be more cautious in the future.

  123. allhellsloose

    “No genuine social revolution can be accomplished by the male, as all the male on top wants is the status quo, and all the male on the bottom wants is to be the male on top.”
    SCUM manifesto, Valerie Solanas

    I forgot to wish all fellow blamers a Happy New Year.

  124. pillowinhell

    Ugh! Hugo….recognized him as scum from the very first post I read… I knew there was something wrong with the guy so I started reading his back posts. He has some very serious character flaws which he tried to get excused by “over looking” in others. The whole attempted murder post almost passed me by, since I had been avoiding his posts like the plague.

    Sounds to me like he’s setting up for another bout of egregious moral fail and trying to gather enough fan base to cushion the impact of the consequences. The guys is clearly some type of sociopath and the murder post proves it. Seriously, if he had even enough shame or guilt to fill the bottom half of a thimble, he couldn’t have put up that post. Instead, he writes that his lawyer says he can’t be held accountable now, so hey! Let’s share this awesome story! He’s proud of it for Christs sake!

  125. Twisty

    Owly & Lurker Lyn, I am the admin for the FB I Blame the Patriarchy page. Would you believe I forgot all about that thing? Well, after digging around for the password, I biffed over there and banned that Joe schmuck but I don’t know how to remove all his comments because Facebook is something of a mystery to me. As is the “I blame the patriarchy” [sic] Facebook group. Does anyone know anything about that?

  126. susanw

    Brought tears to my eyes to read the name Pat Maginnis. There were many of us who celebrated Roe with strong misgivings because we were RADICAL feminists. The root problem isn’t some vague “right” to privacy; women are either persons who own our bodies, or we aren’t.

  127. quixote

    Uh, Sara? About this, “Does anyone want to discuss this?
    http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/new-study-finds-abortion-safer-giving-birth. I can’t grok where to start.”

    That’s been known forever. Pregnancy is the riskiest thing any human body does in the normal course of events. Modern medicine mitigates that a lot, but can’t change the overall equation.

    I’m not saying it’s a bad idea to confirm it repeatedly. Only that it is obvious.

  128. Twisty

    Quixote, I wouldn’t call it “obvious.” The indoctrination most women receive characterizes pregnancy as natural and awesome and so good for you it makes you glow with health.

  129. stacey

    I have one of those names that is like SparklyPonyGlitterMagic that I use on things like download sites and… actually, I’ve pretty much given up on any fora other than feminist ones. Life is way too short.

  130. quixote


    I grew up in a family of all-women, all ornery, and we didn’t have a TV. My grandmother was a doctor. So I don’t even remember when I first heard the statistics on pregnancy. I should have said it’s always been obvious to doctors. But I honestly didn’t know it wasn’t common knowledge. The longer I live, the more stuff there is that I don’t know.

    (I really need a little frowny face here!)

  131. Hari

    TwissB–this is so good it bears repeating:

    “Real reforms come from changing the way people see the situation, not from pleading for change from those in charge of maintaining a status quo that is paying off for them.”

  132. Twisty

    “(I really need a little frowny face here!)”

    No you don’t! Resist! Resist!

  133. quixote

    TwissB, this is perfect: “When winning is the only thing, you lose.”

    You see the truth of it everywhere these days. I’m printing it on my tshirts.

  134. cin17

    I’ve always assumed that my two nics (gxm17 and cin17) are feminine but that’s because I know that gxm = gina x machina and cin = cinnamon grrrl. At some point I became too lazy to type them out and resorted to acronyms. Recently, I started using my own photo (and not one of my grandsons) in my avatar just to be clear.

    I refuse to front as a man. I won’t be scared off the internet, though truthfully I mostly comment on feminist sites and crime boards, both of which are predominantly women spaces. The only time I’ve been physically threatened was by a self-proclaimed eugenicist because I went full snark on him. He told me that he was going to trace my IP and come after me. I asked him what made him think I lived alone and that the men who live with me don’t carry guns. He backed off but I’ve been more cautious ever since.

    And, Twisty, Fairy tale Sunday is an absolutely brilliant and powerful post. Thank you internet feminists, all of you, for being on the front lines. I spent decades being the lone feminist in the room. Hell, in the real world, I still am. But not online. Online there’s a sisterhood I never knew existed. And I think that’s why feminist bloggers are so relentlessly attacked. Not only do you challenge our androcentric patriarchy, but other women are listening to you.

  135. Lovepug


    You are not by chance a Broney are you? Or rather a Pegasister?

    I ask because I have a 13 year old who is obsessed with My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (which is actually a fairly feminist cartoon) and your name evokes Twilight Sparkle.

    And by the way, as much as I love my daughter, my pregnancy SUCKED. I puked every day for the entire 9 months minus the first few weeks and ended up being induced when my body finally threw in the towel three days before my due date.

    Pregnancy does go well for the most part, but when it does not, it fails rather specacularly.

  136. roseh

    January 25, 2012 at 6:53 pm
    The only male on the planet with whom I’d consider having a serious conversation is Lundy Bancroft.

    I agree with that, susanw. I also have found Gavin de Becker’s work useful.

  137. Comrade PhysioProf

    When Schwyzer’s fans write comments on his blogge “supporting” him, he always responds personally to each one, thanking them for their “support”. Some of us have written comments that take him to task for his bullshitte empty notion of “redemption”, such as this one:

    If his narrative of recovery and accountability is not a complete sham, then he will remove himself permanently from being at the center of attention of groups of young women and in a position of power and privilege over them.

    Of course, nothing but crickets from Schwyzer himself, and d00dly gibberish like this from his fans:

    I’ve honestly never seen such naked jealousy by so many miserable, failed writers who think they’re entitled to a platform, based on their sex, in my life. Maybe if a couple of you grew up and took a writing class or two instead of creating Facebook hate pages and trolling people’s blogs (which, come to think of it, is textbook female adolescent bullying behaviour) people might care what you have to say as much as they care what Hugo Schwyzer has to say–which drives you crazy.

    Either that, or find a sympathetic shrink.

    Ina Garten is fucken awesome! Itte’s hilarious to see her richeasse plutocrat husband wandering around in the background on their lavish Hamptons estate while she cookes!

  138. Doctress Julia

    I use feminine names online because I am a woman. But, after a passionate round of kicking ass with facts, I run away so I don’t have to read the horrible threats and abuse that I no doubt am replied to with. Is that a dangling participle…?

    I’ve been a d00d online, and it just makes me angrier that I can say the exact same things as a man and be heard and respected.

    “No genuine social revolution can be accomplished by the male, as all the male on top wants is the status quo, and all the male on the bottom wants is to be the male on top.”
    SCUM manifesto, Valerie Solanas


  139. Jasokayl


    I ran into the same problem when trying to follow the links but after much searching and cursing I was able to scrounge up a working (for now, anyway) cache of the page you’re referring to:

    It still has the shit-eating grin face attached to it though. Thought I should warn everyone.

    Long time lurker, first time commenter. I just want to say that Twisty is like my Oprah, minus the Cadillac giveaways.

  140. Pavlov's Cat

    This is one of the few places on the internet where I even read the comments. And IDK how this name is perceived, I’d read it as gender-neutral but maybe feline=female in some heads that don’t get the reference (Eddie Izzard).

  141. slade

    Hey Bushfire!

    Thank you so much for the link to Catharine MacKinnon’s speech at University of Michigan. I feel personally indebted to her and Andrea Dworkin’s work. RIP Andrea.

    I just love her.

  142. Sara

    Quixote: allow me to clarify. I meant the writers of that article trying to refute the study by saying that abortions cause more long-term mental health effects. As if that wasn’t the fault of a society that labels them as evil for trying to own their bodies.. IBTP

  143. speedbudget

    It’s true, quixote. Pregnancy is all flowers and unicorn-sparkle farts. If not, it’s because you’re obviously doing it wrong. Any complications lead to a quick review of all the ways in which you are not feminine-compliant enough.

    And don’t even get them started on women who don’t want to be pregnant ever. Obviously we are broken.

  144. quixote

    Sara: Oh. Mental health effects. Christ on a bike. I obviously haven’t read the study, and it would never occur to me to research the mental health effects of removing some cells.

    I’ll just go back to my home planet and stop displaying (more) ignorance.

  145. Treefinger

    “You are not by chance a Broney are you? Or rather a Pegasister?”

    Lovepug, since you brought up FiM, and this is an open thread, I’d like to take the opportunity to bitch about bronys (male bronys, some female ones call themselves brony rather than pegasister) AND the men who hate them.

    If I see one more brony congratulating himself for being sooo evolved he can sit through a cartoon for little girls and find something to like, I’ll punch my monitor. Just shut up and watch it. You don’t deserve a medal for doing so. Ditto the dudes who talk about how FiM is only popular because 20-something male channers like it. Gee, it’s not like the original My Little Pony franchise became a hit in the 80s without your help.

    Dudes who complain about bronies for liking something girl-oriented are just as bad, obviously. I long for the day when a dude’s reaction to a super-femme cartoon that happens to be decent is neither “omfg it’s for girls, it sucks” nor “omfg I like it even though it’s for girls, I should be praised for my open-mindedness”.

  146. Treefinger

    Ergh, brony plural fail. It should be “bronies” in every plural case, of course.

  147. Twisty

    “If I see one more brony […] how FiM is only popular because 20-something male channers like it.”

    I literally have no idea what the heck any of this means.

  148. AlienNumber

    Hey, look: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/sports/ncaafootball/at-yale-the-collapse-of-a-rhodes-scholar-candidacy.xml

    I’d say this is all pretty great, but then I remember he didn’t actually suffer any actual repercussions.

  149. stacey

    “unicorn-sparkle farts

    That’s totes going to be my new online name.

    @Lovepug, no, I’m not a Ponies fan. I just tried to call to mind the most ridiculous “girly” things I’ve seen used as online nicknames. In truth, my names always involve cats.

  150. Comrade PhysioProf

    I literally have no idea what the heck any of this means.

    Welcome to the fucken clubbe!

  151. hayduke

    Jasokayl, many thanks. I plan to share this around as much as I can, since he’s put so much effort into hiding it now.

    The pregnancy sucks discussion: I’m gonna go have a brew and a smoke and maybe do something potentially physically dangerous and just bask in the facts that a) my body is mine and mine alone and thus capable of these things and b) ain’t nobody gonna offer their opinion on what I “should” be doing for the sake of “the baby!” Maybe pregnancy/bringing a new life into the world has the potential to be some sorta positive type thing, I dunno, and I’m not looking to hop anybody’s ass if that whole earth-mother thing is their deal. But good luck knowing for sure, let alone appreciating it, so long as we live under the P. Cuz they are not interested in allowing you to experience, let alone celebrate, your body on its own terms. This “yeah, pregnancy” shit exists precisely because it allows everybody to tell pregnant ladies what to do.

  152. Twisty

    “Ina Garten is fucken awesome! Itte’s hilarious to see her richeasse plutocrat husband wandering around in the background on their lavish Hamptons estate while she cookes!”

    I know! And she’s just mad for that guy. Yesterday she was cooking their anniversary dinner, and she must have spake the word “Jeffrey” about 87 times in 5 minutes. Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey. No way he doesn’t have a 23-year-old mistress in Manhattan. That’s gracious living for you.

  153. pheeno

    h ttp://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pegasister

    A pegasister is a type of brony, and a brony is a male viewer of the cartoon My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic on The Hub Tv Network™.

    I feel dumber now for knowing this.

  154. buttercupia

    Oh open thread blamers, please grant me sanity and surcease from the endless deification of Joe Paterno that is on my TV, radio, and internets 24/7 lately here in Western PA. I keep dousing my lobe in cold water and Chimay but I still think it’s gonna blow if I hear one more washed up collegiate letterman pontificate on how joepa changed his life. Instead of the lives he could have changed for the better had he done what was right when he heard his buddy was raping children in the locker room.

  155. Lovepug

    My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is brought to you by the creators of Foster’s Home For Imaginary Friends and Powerpuff Girls.

    There is much debate about Bronys vs. Pegasisters.


    Thank goodness for the sunshine and lollipops of pregancy or I never would have had the Blamer In Training and I would never have learned about this valuable television show.

    The other day when I was doing one of my feminist deconstructions the Blamer In Training loves so, and she yelled at me, “Why do you have to ruin everything?”

    I blame Twisty.

  156. Oaktown Girl

    @buttercupia on JoPa – yes, yes, and HELL yes! Sadly, it’s not just quarantined to Western PA. Just when I thought it couldn’t get any worse, yesterday I had to hear all these d00ds crying about how JoPa didn’t die from the cancer, but from a “broken heart”. Then that ignorant fuckwad Matt Millen added, “I have a problem with that”. So Millen has “a problem” with JoPa dying of a “broken heart”. But does he have “a problem” with all those kids who got molested and raped on the Penn State campus years after Joe Paterno knew there was a predator wandering around with full access? Not so much.

  157. Oaktown Girl

    This article about “Princess Parties” appeared in the local paper yesterday or the day before. Having previously been ignorant of the sheer scope of this kind of thing, naturally I was horrified. I can’t find the story online from the local paper, but here’s a link to the same article from another source (HispanicBusiness.com):


    Hope that link works. (Damn I wish we had a “preview button” here.) Anyway, as it turns out, there’s really no reason to get our feminist panties in a bunch about these Princess Parties:

    “One of the things I’m most proud of is that we throw a little girl power into the party,” says Frank, whose prices start at $235. “Since I have two girls, that’s important to me. So our princesses ask the girls, ‘Who knows what it takes to become a princess?’ They’ll get answers like, ‘She wears makeup and a dress,’ but we’ll say, ‘Do you need to be strong and brave and kind?’ And we get that idea out there.”

    So you see, it’s all OK!

  158. Oaktown Girl

    OK, well the link didn’t work, and I think a copy and paste takes you to page 2 of the story. I won’t attempt another link, but try a copy and paste on this instead:


    If all else fails, Google story title: Princess-themed Businesses Bloom, but Some Worry About the Message It Sends.

  159. stacey

    Once again, I’m so glad I had a boy child, because having a girl child would certainly have blown my lobe. And, because this is an open thread, I’ll tell you how much I love my kid (and his insular hippie school): today they had a talent show and my kid demonstrated how to make hummus. And he made me come early so I could DO HIS MAKEUP (blue and pink eye shadow, mascara, and lip gloss). And not a single kid or parent thought it was weird. I love my sheltered life.

  160. Jezebella

    It always makes me sad when moms talk about how glad they are they don’t have daughters.

  161. Keri

    Thank you Jezebella. I have one of each kind of spawn. They are all growed up and I love them both like crazy.

    My daughter, however, has to live in this bullshit society as a woman. Sucks to be her, and me, and you. IBTP!

    My son, though I love that 24 year old little shit, gets to benefit from being a white male. He would tell you it is so. My daughter, not so much. But she has some good ol’ radfem balls at 26 years old and I love it. You go Muffin!

  162. Keri

    And P.S., that Hugo Schwyzer can suck donkey nuts. He better keep his nasty jizzy ass away from my college aged daughter. Fuckwad.

  163. speedbudget

    buttercupia, I wish Western PA would just keep their JoePa worship to themselves. I am infected with it all the way down here in Delaware.

    If I have to hear one more time how he was “a man of integrity” I will take a dump all over Happy Valley. A “man of integrity” would have done the right thing, no matter what it would have cost his precious football program or his disgusting friends.

    From the way people around here talk, you would think old JoePa was some kind of vapid, sad old man just being pushed around in his wheelchair up there at Penn State with no say in anything.

  164. Hari

    hayduke, THANK YOU for this, on pregnancy in the P:

    “But good luck knowing for sure, let alone appreciating it, so long as we live under the P. Cuz they are not interested in allowing you to experience, let alone celebrate, your body on its own terms. This “yeah, pregnancy” shit exists precisely because it allows everybody to tell pregnant ladies what to do.”

    So true. Too many womyn don’t realize how true, or how much pure unabashed patriarchy is at the foundation of the obstetrics which claims to ‘mitigate the natural dangers of pregnancy’, while the whole time adding to the dangers of it and stealing womyn’s power and joy. Nuff said, other than this:

    The P not only runs everything, it also constructs/defines everything. Everything, including modern medicine, where the male body is the The Norm, and the female body Aberrant By Nature. Understanding this is a major Blamer endeavor toward health and liberation.

    I’m unreservedly glad I had daughters, who are all ass kicking blamers in their different ways (tho yeah, they do have to live in the P). I love my boys too…and now they’re grown, I see their white male privilege and it’s awful. They hate me for being a feminist and making them hear about sexism growing up–poor babies!

    As for JoePa: in the same vein as Hugo, that story makes me want to barf, weep wildly, and go shoot him, all 3. It’s good I don’t own a gun (yet), I’m way too old to feel a need to be nice about any of this shit anymore.

  165. tinfoil hattie

    Google “Fuck Joe Paterno” for an awesome takedown of Football’s Most Precious Dude. First time in years I’ve read anything at Kos.

    Stay away from the comments, of course.

  166. speedbudget

    Thanks, hattie. I just posted that to my Facebook. I am sure the usual suspects will be out to defend him. I asked them once why they never considered why one person needs so much defending if they did nothing wrong, but that is too much thinking, I suppose.

  167. anarres

    About supposed mental health effects of abortion, here in the UK it’s standard practice for the extremist religious fuckwads who run “Crisis pregnancy centers” to peddle this myth. There is even a made-up scientifical-sounding name for it, “Abortion Trauma Syndrome”, that they put in their leaflets and on their websites, and fuckwit politicians (well, mainly Nadine Dorries) keep saying this stuff in newspaper interviews no matter how many times people point out that it’s not true. So I’m thinking the fact that lots of people think abortion causes mental health problems is the result of a systematic campaign of misinformation, rather than simple ignorance.

  168. Lurker Lyn


    Does it seem to you (as it does to me) that if our female politicians aren’t saying something wildly damaging should be done to women, the reportage is all about their shoes or incompetance? I cannot comprehend how any woman can join the Tories – I know we make compromises to survive but seriously, this is a crisis.

  169. TriciaMilitia

    anarres- they start it young, too- your post brought me back to the musky library at dear old Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic School. In 3rd grade, all females (and only females) in the class were made to watch a video of what I think was a partial-birth abortion and interviews of women detailing the metal and physical repercussions of said abortion. That was sex ed in it’s entirety. I didn’t think much of at the time, being only a wee nugget, but DAMN, Catholic Church.

  170. CassieC

    Thanks for the insightful comments, blamers. I’m currently in my 13th week of turning my body into the host of a (planned) parasite. I’ve been sick to my stomach, with very restricted diet in terms of what I can keep down (starch & salt & some lemon juice) and tired as a dog for most of this time. No rainbows or ponies, just feeling like my normal life is being taken away day by day.

    I’m not regretting my decision (yet?) but every day and hour and week makes me more violently pro-choice. Fortunately, I currently live in the UK, where the limit for an abortion is 22 weeks. The test for Down syndrome is available starting weak 15: if I were in the US, I’d be shit out of luck. Here, I’d just have to get 2 doctors to sign off, and if one doctor I ask doesn’t want to sign, they _have_ to recommend me to one that will. It’s not perfect, but compared to the US, it feels like El Dorado.

    Other fun UK fact: the mother fills out the birth certificate with whatever information she wants: her name, child’s name, name of father – it’s up to her to assign paternity or not. If the father wants his paternity to be secret, he has to go through a legal process.

  171. anarres

    @Lurker Lyn, on the positive side, I was happy to see Diane Abbott walk out of the abortion counselling group, and even happier that she called it out as a front group for the anti-choicers.


  172. Rididill

    Not to crap all over everybody’s pro-choice parade, but can we please stop pretending that claims of mental health problems after abortion are just right wing propaganda? They are real, and this rhetoric from the women who are supposed to be on women’s side is harmful.

    I had massive mental health problems after my abortion and some of the pro-choice websites I found were really more concerned with not giving ammunition to the right wing than actually helping women according to their actual experiences. So, not only did I feel like shit, I was made to feel I was letting down feminism by being an example of what the pro-choice movement didn’t want to exist.

    I regretted nothing; the insane depression was more to do with abruptly realizing I was a woman and this was a patriarchy and liberal funfeminism is a pile of bullcrap and I’d been letting myself be seriously used. Nothing to do with what the right wing says we should be getting depressed about. But to admit I was depressed about it at all was tantamount to going against the pro-choice dogma (that I’d seen, at least, which was long before I was much more aware of the blogosphere). And this most certainly prolonged the depression, guilt and self-blame.

    I would have been a million times worse off if I had had the baby. That does not mean that abortion never comes with mental health problems. So knock it off, please.

  173. yttik

    “There is even a made-up scientifical-sounding name for it, Abortion Trauma Syndrome”

    They never really discuss the possibility that some women may have trauma or depression simply from the reality of being repeatedly used as somebody’s sexual toilet. As safe and simple as abortion is, it’s still at least comparable to a root canal. If every time you tried to have an intimate relationship with a man, he left you alone at the dentist to have a root canal, it would get rather depressing.

    It always strikes me as bizarre that they’ll never talk about this. If abortion causes women all this damage, then perhaps men should stop so carelessly impregnating them? Why would you do that to somebody and risk them getting “Abortion Trauma Syndrome?” And what’s the alleged “cure” for ATS, child birth, post partum depression?

  174. tinfoil hattie


    When I miscarried, I went through a horrible depression. One thing I finally figured out was that I had been pregnant, and suddenly I wasn’t – so my I was going through postpartum depression. Same is true with abortion, I imagine. Hormone levels are changing rapidly, and if one has doubt, sorrow, or regret about the necessity of the abortion, that can only compound things.

    The pro-choice side doesn’t do a good job of discussing frankly the down-side of abortion, which leaves many women struggling with the “Of COURSE you feel like shit; you’ve done an EVIL thing” comfort of the anti-abortion side.

    I’m sorry you had a difficult experience. It sounds like it was really rough.

    Also, I have two mini-Nigels. I wish I had both of them AND a daughter, but it was not to be. I compensate by drilling feminism into their heads 24/7. They will still be privileged white men, but perhaps they will at least acknowledge their privilege.

  175. anarres

    @Rididill – I’m sorry, I was too simplistic, I said “Abortion Trauma Syndrome” doesn’t exist, and that’s true in that it isn’t recognised as a medical condition by the Royal College of Psychiatrists or any other reputable medical organisation. But that’s not to say that some people aren’t traumatised after an abortion. I’m sorry to hear you went through such a hard time, and sorry for being too glib.

  176. Jenni

    I use dogsmycopilot a lot. Men of course assume I’m male. But what got me was I had one guy on an atheist forum I was on actually get mad, acted like I had tricked him. lol. Never mind I never claimed to be male and if he read much on the site he’d have seen a pic of me, but oh no, it was my fault he wasted his time talking to me. Then you get the guys who didn’t much notice you at first but once it’s made clear you’re a dame they want to chat and of course it’s less than ten minutes from respectful chat to “show me your boobs.” Asshats.

    Since this is open thread, I’d like to complain about my inability to escape the patriarchy in the gym. Even women’s only gyms are rank with it. Of course there is the common “you’ll get bulky” line but there’s another level just underneath the obvious where crap happens and you are left with a sick icky feeling realizing you have just been dude-ied on. Even compliments are not without their patriarchal leanings. I went to check out a new gym with a friend the other day and you know what they had? A women’s only section with PACE circuit equipment. I found myself very offended. For those of you who don’t know PACE is a piss poor version of weight machines with a little tension knob thingy instead of actual weights. They might be suitable for small children. Maybe. Really small. They may as well have painted them all pink and put lace on it. Why are people scared to let the ladies near the real weights?

    I’d also like to post this: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/health/as-victims-men-struggle-for-rape-awareness.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss On the surface it looks like a reasonable article. But when you really read what’s there it basically says rape is worse for men than for women. WTF? “But men also face a challenge to their sense of masculinity.” Oh, that’s right I forget women are here to be raped. No wonder it’s worse for men. *eyeroll* I think to be anything associated with women, to be raped and therefore be like a woman, is offensive to men. It offends them to be placed in the same category we are. So while we fight to get rape kits paid for and tested they get two pages in the Times.

  177. buttercupia

    Tinfoil hattie, thank you for pointing out that kos story. Wow.

  178. Fictional Queen

    I would never pretend to be MALE, ewww! I hate them! Pretending to be one would degrade me.

  179. JetGirl

    The only place I ever pretended to be male was on Ask Men. It was amazing how respectfully I was treated, and several of the women on there were sending me private flirty messages. It was fascinating.
    And Schwyzer — he never had me as a fan, but my soul died a little after I read the “men jizz on women’s faces to feel accepted” story. And many of the comments on that story made me want to leave the planet.

  180. Bushfire

    If abortion causes women all this damage, then perhaps men should stop so carelessly impregnating them?


  181. KittyWrangler

    @stacey re: hippie school

    Ha! That is truly the stuff of Republican nightmares. Congratulations.

  182. Cyberwulf

    If abortion causes women all this damage, then perhaps men should stop so carelessly impregnating them?

    Now yttik, you know better than that. Men simply can’t help themselves – Mr. Dick takes over and catapults them straight into the nearest vagina. It’s up to us deranged sluts not to lead them into temptation, daughters of Eve that we are.

    A few months back I saw a documentary about Andrea Yates, and as a result I learned that after she had her fourth child, she and her husband were told not to have any more children. Of course wankchops went right ahead and impregnated her again, instead of doing something sensible LIKE GETTING SNIPPED if he couldn’t keep his dong to himself.

  183. meowbaby

    Speedbudget, you are in Delaware??? me too!! I thought I was the only feminist in the state. So basically the Delaware contingent has just doubled. Awesome.

  184. Kea

    Heh, Cade, that’s an excellent speech. Only a writer could elaborate so clearly these basic truths.

  185. stacey

    Hm. I should have been more specific when I said I’m glad I had a boy. Let me rephrase: “Once again, I’m so glad I had a boy child, even though I really wanted a girl, because having a girl child would have caused me more internal anguish as I desperately tried to educate her about feminism without seeming to lecture her because I wouldn’t want her to be turned off by her hairy radical mom, and I would probably not succeed because I’d be repeating patterns from my own painful upbringing with my combative, vicious and resentful mother, and I don’t think there’s a happy pill big enough in the world that could keep me calm in her “princess” phase, and she’d probably end up hating me forever and I’d kill myself out of failure.”

    So really, I’m glad I had a boy because I can go ahead and lecture him, and I don’t double-guess myself. Much easier for me all around.

  186. stacey

    Except for always having pee all over the toilet.

  187. That Damn Sanchez Kid

    I’ve recently taken to using clearly dudely names on websites to see if it makes a difference, and surprisingly (nah who the fuck am i kidding–completely unsurprisingly)I’ve had much better results: I get responded to directly, get spoken to in a tone suitable for someone other than an overly-emotional preschooler, and so forth. In the wake of the whole anniversary of Roe v. Wade or whatever the hell the occasion is that’s causing people to flock to D.C. in protest of women’s rights (what rights?) I’ve been doing an awful lot of pointless arguing on the internet with people who will listen to neither me nor the voice of reason, nor the American Medical Association, prompting me to try a few new things on the front of being given an ounce of consideration for my argument, hence the manly monikers. (On a sidenote, this recent turmoil has driven me into a very foul mood, to a point where I nearly broke up with my well-meaning-and-apologetic but slightly-misguided-on-occasion boyfriend. Well, I’m actually still considering the matter of Boyfriend, and input is welcome: of late he’s expressed some rather idiotic views on the topic of women-being-people, and although he was easily set straight, and although he was extremely apologetic and seemed to feel more than a bit guilty, after years of this crap I’m finding it more than a little difficult not to hold a grudge.)

  188. naomi

    If any of you are feeling witty, maybe you could help me out here …

    The other day I commented in this thread about being token_woman on thedailywtf.

    Anyway, yesterday, on thedailywtf, someone called Sutherlands asked a question about test-driven development.

    I replied to Sutherlands’ post, answering the question.

    A few hours later someone called CPUWizard posted, quoting Sutherlands’ question and my answer to it. The first line of his post was:

    “Thanks, Sutherlands, for the explanation.”

    I’d like post something pointing out CPUWizard’s “mistake” in a suitably crushing manner, but I’m better at talking to computers than people so do you have any suggestions that would be better than a sarcastic “yeah, thanks, helpful explanation guys” (which they probably will take at face value anyway!)?

  189. naomi

    Never mind, I got impatient and did the best I could

  190. speedbudget

    meowbaby, I can’t believe I’m here either. It’s nice to know there is someone else in the Land of Tax Free Shopping who has some decent ideas about humanity.

  191. Rididill

    @annares, tinfoil hattie – thanks guys, if only I had known the radfem blogosphere at the time!

    ‘The pro-choice side doesn’t do a good job of discussing frankly the down-side of abortion, which leaves many women struggling with the “Of COURSE you feel like shit; you’ve done an EVIL thing” comfort of the anti-abortion side.’

    Yeah that is so true. Most of the sites I found discussing depression after abortion were all like ‘don’t worry, it’s perfectly natural to feel depressed and hate yourself if you’ve killed your baby’. And definitely the hormones were a factor, at least at first.

    ‘If abortion causes women all this damage, then perhaps men should stop so carelessly impregnating them?’

    damn straight! It’s unbelievable really. In fact, looking back, this is basically what the depression was about – the sudden realization that I’d taken all this unnecessary risk on myself without a second thought, and I had to pay the price, and he could just walk away without it affecting him in the slightest (which he did). But at the time I didn’t really understand what was going on, all I could see at the time was abortion -> horrible depression.

    Being very male-identified and funfem at the time, I believed that if I was actually depressed that meant abortion didn’t ‘compensate’ for women’s biological vulnerabilities, so then mean and women could never be equal (equal meaning equal entirely on male terms) – and I felt let down by the pro-choice/pro-life debates for making it out like abortion was just so simple and easy and would only make you depressed if you felt guilty. So it was really confusing and took a long time to actually face up to the fact that I was really hurting.

    On the plus side, it’s what made me a radical feminist. I’m so glad you all exist.

  192. Keri

    “there’s another level just underneath the obvious where crap happens and you are left with a sick icky feeling realizing you have just been dude-ied on.” sayeth Jenni.

    Oh the gym indeed! ICK! I employ my IPod strategy (I can’t hear you and really can’t see you either when this music is playing right in my earholes) and doods STILL stop me to give their dood-ly thoughts on my workout.

    The gym is an unfortunate necessity in an urban 9-5 lifestyle as it is teeming with nasty doods.

  193. That Damn Sanchez Kid

    OOOooh but Keri, don’t you KNOW? No matter how much mansplaining-training you get, you’ll *never* do it right BECAUSE you’re a WOMAN(i think?)! Women’s bodies just aren’t meant for exercise!(…?) It’s your very female-ness that’s preventing you from working out correctly!(…?) I get these a lot from my own so-called “family” ai ai ai

  194. speedbudget

    I find doing wind sprints on the elliptical in order to keep time with David Bowie’s “Hallo Spaceboy” throws the gymdoods into tantrums and fits. They literally cannot keep up with my pace, and they can’t handle it. I highly recommend it.

  195. Keri

    Or, if you are exercising “right”, aka they are watching with a creepy fuckabililty assessing eye, they have to let you know that too.

    Sometimes the crusty old fuckers in the gym get all pissy because you are ignoring them. One a-hole likes to try and kill my exercising buzz by cranking up the Bill O’Reilly on the tv where the rowing machines are so loud I can’t hear my classic techno. Hate that guy.

  196. Hari

    What the hell is *wrong* with you, Keri? Don’t you know yet that you are *made* for the benefit of the “creepy fuckability assessing eye”–? You musta missed that memo.

    And the other memo must have missed you too, the one about how crusty old geezers have a right (they perhaps more than the young bucks, even, due to their Advanced Dudely Authority) to your attention if they want it? For chrissakes, womyn, those memos are damn important to men.

    Ah me. Earbuds maybe? Blinders *and* earbuds? Makes me glad I live in rural parts, where I can take me a nice long hike/rock-climb without anyone else around.

  197. Keri

    Maybe we all need some better t-shirts with “leave me the fuck alone you crusty old geezer” messages on them. Hmmm. An IBTP gym clothing line would perhaps be a big seller.

  198. Anne

    @jenni – I’m not sure if it’s just my perception but I seem to be coming across a lot more articles, posts, and comments lately about how rape is worse for men because of whatever, with a lot of unsubstantiated assertions that male victims are less likely to report because of the added shame and are provided fewer resources for their recovery. As if female victims just take it on the chin, or the local rape crisis center will laugh a male victim out of the building.

  199. Twisty

    I know! I just read just such a post and then posted it on the IBTP Facebook page. The NYTimes has a piece about how rape is so devastating for dudes, which of course implies that it may suck when it happens to women, but since rape is essentially why we exist, it’s just not as bad for us as it is for dudes. They have all that masculinity on the line, see. Women, though, we just lope it off, as my old riding buddy used to say.

  200. Bacon

    I use my hilarious surname as my internet moniker, and everyone always assumes I’m a guy. Probably because bacon is a meat, and everyone knows that meat and meat-names are reserved exclusively for the menfolk.
    I rarely correct the assumption outside of feminist spaces. Not only to avoid the inevitable misogyny of the internet, but also because a lot of men react very poorly to the apparent betrayal that is reading someone’s comment and taking it seriously only to discover that they’d actually listened to a woman without being given a cookie.

  201. lesbonaut

    Rididill & yttik, I had a similar experience with abortion. Minor differences: I was already a budding radical feminist at the time, I was beginning to realize I didn’t even like being with men (much less having the old PIV with them), and a lot of the abortion trauma came from being on food stamps but still having to pay something like $400 — the equivalent of one month’s rent — out of my own pocket for the procedure.
    It took place at 13 weeks’ gestation and physically hurt like hell. I was not given painkillers, because I was supposed to “understand what I was doing”, and the nurse felt my crying in pain was bothering other patients, so she sent me home when I was still puking from the abdominal cramps. I passed out on the way home and some stranger had to help me. This all took place at a Planned Parenthood, an organization I had previously picketed in support of and done fundraising for. I was pretty pissed off. Still am.

    Naturally, the dude who had raped/impregnated me had to pay exactly bupkis. He was also living at my house and sponging off me, but every time I’d kick him out, he’d break in (again) and try to kill me (again). So he was costing me even more money and causing me even more pain. All the PP abortion counselors would talk to me about was my ‘guilt’. I screamed at one that I didn’t feel guilty at all, I just hated my home situation. She just looked at me sadly and treated me from there on out like I was in denial. We have a long way to go in terms of women’s liberation.

    Also, the My Little Pony discussion has helped me to understand why, when I tried to start a “Yo, Is This Sexist?” Twitter/Tumblr, my first influx of trolls was asking me all about my favorite Pony.
    I didn’t even know those were popular again. Aren’t they all pornified now? Like, they’re all absurdly feminized and some are even wearing high heels?! (What kind of farrier would do that?! Imagine the poor ponies’ hoof angles and the state of their suspensory ligaments.)

  202. Ruby Lou

    Never heard of Hugo until this thread. Found that Jizzibel piece he wrote, it reads like the egg-head version of a sex column in Hustler magazine. It curdles my entire lobe that he’s got this big presence as a celebrity feminist, complete with female fan base, and he’s an academic! Teaching to young women! What a thrill it is to be female alongside those women loudly and consistently exposing his creepy game.

    It never occurred to me to get a dude moniker for the internet. And I hafta say, the prospect of inventing cool names is to me as a big bowl of Cocoa Crispies is to a hungry preschooler. But it’s too much fun to be blatantly female, at all times. I can’t give it up.

  203. Jezebella

    Lesbonaut, I considered starting a “yo is this sexist?” tumblr my own self, for about 30 seconds, until I realized I did not have the sanity points to deal with the trolls that would descend forthwith. Sorry I was right about that, and thanks for giving it a try.

    Keri, when I worked out at the gym, I usually wore one of my multitude of Planned Parenthood t-shirts, because here in Buttcrack, Mississippi, nothing repels dudes like a whiff of reproductive freedom.

  204. lesbonaut

    One of the problems is, in this case, all that reproductive “freedom” sure as hell isn’t free.

  205. Rididill

    Wow lesbonaut that sounds awful. I’m sorry you had to go through that – what a pile of crap. That sounds horrible. And what a fuckwad. Mine was, at least, more indifferent than violent.

    I can’t believe they sent you home in that state. Though, is this passing out thing the norm perhaps? Why doesn’t anyone tell you about that shit? I also almost passed out on the way home and got screamed at in Spanish (which I didn’t speak a word of at the time) by the waitress in the cafe I happened to be in (it was in Spain).

  206. Noble Rat

    Late contribution. I see we’re not actually talking bout gendered monikers and their effect on conversation so much anymore, but for what it’s worth:

    I used a masculine spelling of my middle name for youtube comment wars on the subject of women’s rights. The argument went well, point for point, I was engaged seriously and sincerely by this MRA. He ended by shrugging (typing “shrug” that is) and saying that there would be room for me on the “Dark Side” of open misogyny, if I ever changed my dudemind about it. But he didn’t hate me. It was definitely bro-tastic and respectful, and weirdly open armed.

    So yeah, I’d say it helps. If I’d been a woman arguing for women’s rights (on the hellscape of youtube of all places) he would have just told me to shut my bitch mouth, or wished rape upon me.

  207. Doctress Ju'ulia

    Keri, here, I made some for you.


  208. KittyWrangler

    @doctressJulia – awesome! I want one too, I’m saving up some dollars. I’ve searched for feminist t-shirts on Etsy and CafePress before but the designs and “witty” slogans often leave me a cold. by the way what’s with the molded meat ring tee? Is there a story behind it or is it simply meant to be grotesquely fascinating?

    @Kali – I’m not sure if this would work at your gym but there’s a universal on/off remote you can get that is supposed to turn off any TV anywhere. You could repeatedly turn off his O’Reilly.

  209. Keri

    My gym t-shirt dreams have come true! I especially enjoy it in the cap sleeve variation. It will be mine, oh yes, it will be mine. Good for backpacking too me thinks.

    Thanks Doctress Ju’ulia!

  210. stacey

    Oh dear – make the font more readable. Otherwise they’ll be squinting at your boobs.

  211. phio gistic

    If anyone cares to, please leave a comment on this crappy college newspaper mansplanation of why women shouldn’t complain about being called whores because “Don’t worry ladies, we don’t actually think you are hoes; we just really appreciate a good rhyme.”


  212. pearlsbeforeswine

    As a very androgynous person, I did a bit of an experiment a few years ago. I posted the same pics on a variety of sites and on half of them used an unambiguous dood name, while on the other half, used a name unambiguously gendered woman. I was not surprised by the disrespect I received when perceived as a woman and the respect I received as a man. What did shock me was how, as a supposed dood, I received messages from all genders, even supposedly “straight” men about how good looking I was. Under my woman name, I received ad hominem attacks about how ugly I was, from both women and men alike, and how maybe I wouldn’t be so “unhappy” if I just grew my hair, put on some makeup and tried to look more “pretti!!!!” I am still in a rage about this. How is it that I can be hawt as a dood and a worthless ugly nothing as a nondood? Rhetorical question btw. And of course, my ugliness as a nondood made my arguments completely irrelevant; I was just “obviously” jealous and that’s why I dared to insult porn, challenge funfems, and call gay men out on the type of misogyny that funfems and proud antifeminist “fag hags” found both hilarious and spot on while I found it hateful and damaging.

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